In defence of Smith Machine squats

[Realgains]

Okay here it goes.....power lifters feel free to fire at will he he he .

There is a group that is very strongly against the use of a Smith Machine for Squats. Most of these people are against the use of any machines for that matter.

NOTE: Let it be made prefectly clear...I THINK THE REGULAR BACK SQUAT IS BETTER THAN THE SMITH SQUAT FOR MOST, unless you just cannot correct an excessive forward lean due to crappy biomechanics.

I JUST THINK ALL THE NOISE ABOUT HOW TERRIBLE THE SMITH MACHINE SQUAT IS IS BS !

A large portion of the people who hate the Smith are power lifters and I will agree that the Smith machine serves little purpose for the power lifter as one must always work on balance and skill in power lifting. HOWEVER many very good bodybuilders use the Smith machine on a routine basis. Some, such as Dorian Yates, dropped the regular Squat after getting very strong in the squat simply because they could squat safer with the Smith. Dorian has admitted that he does Not have the best biomechanics for free squating and after years of refusing to use the smith he finially tried it and found it helped him. Dorian also says that everyone should learn to free squat very well if they can before using the Smith.

I used to belong to this "camp" and thought that anyone that used the Smith Machine was a wimp and simply too lazy to learn the skill of regular back squatting. I too also thought that the Smith machine caused injury and reduced the effectiveness of the squat.

WHY THE CHANGE OF HEART.

Well I am a born squater.....biomechanically near perfect for squating. I can squat a great deal of weight and love the regular squat. I can do the power squat but prefer the regular high bar(olympic/bodybuilding style)

Even though I have excellent form in the squat I have from time to time tweaked my low back coming up from a very hard rep. Most experienced trainees will not get away with years of heavy squating without some minor low back/sacral "tweaks" It just takes a split second of too much forward lean out of the bottom "pocket" of the squat and bingo...you tweaked your low back.
Anyway this "tweaking" rarely happens with good squaters but one day it happen fairly noticably with me. I was then forced to rest the squat for a few weeks. It was then that vey large power lifting friend of mine suggected that I use the Smith. WHAT!! heresy of heresy!...my hard core buddy suggesting the SMITH! After listening to his explaination I decided to try the Smith.

To my shock I was able to position my feet and body identically to the back squat. My form stayed rock solid out of the bottom and my form was very solid and powerful. I was able to focus more on effort and less on skill and balance and this stimulated gains. The Bar never dipped forward and tweaking my back coming out of the "pocket" at the bottom simply because it can't.

I do sometimes position my feet about a cm forward from my regular back squat foot position and this helps to reduce low back strain even though I still have proper forward lean.

REASONS TO NOT USE THE SMITH

Never use the Smith because you don't want to take the time to learn the skill envolved in regular back squating, either power of high bar style.

Never use the Smith to take stress off the hamstrings and butt by placing your feet far forward of the bar. All this does is reduce thigh load, even though it may feel greater. It also puts the knees is a weird position and this could cause injury.


WHY SOME ARE AGAINST THE SMITH and MY COUNTER POINTS

#1. The Smith takes away the skill needed to free bar squat.
Well this is only partially true but it does hold some weight....but it applies to the power lifter and Olympic lifter much more than the bodybuilder and holds little to no weight for the muscle building body builder.

#2. The Smith takes away stimulation of the synergists or stabalizers because good balance and stabalization is not required during the lift.
Well I think this is BS....stabalizers get plenty of work with machines. It does take away from the need to balance and when the going gets really intense I actually think this is an advantage for the body builder and not a disadvantage.

#3. The Smith causes the bar to move staight up and down and this is not a natural squat movement.
Well..unlike the bench press in which the weight is suppose to move in a J hook( although not everyone does this) the weight in the squat should go more straight up and down. I squat totally staright up and down although some have some degree of forward to backward motion. Even if your natural groove causes more forward to backward travel ,being forced to move the bar straight up and down is perfectly safe just like using the hammer bench press is perfectly safe for those that like to do the J press in the regular bench.
My regular back squat and smith squat look exactly the same...same forward lean, same sit back, same depth, same tibial angle, and the bar moves straight up and down.

Injury in the smith comes form poor form...having excessive foot placements either forward or backward.

#4. The Smith forces the torso to move much closer to verticle than in a regular back squat and this decreases the load to the hamstrings and low back.
Well...this is often seen with the Smith as many people place their feet too far forward and some people focus on staying too erect BUT it doesn't have to happen. My feet are usually placed in the exact same place under the bar as with a regular free bar squat and my hams are plenty stresses as are my erectors...AND BTW I sure the HELL do not squat for erector stimulation ...I DO DEADLIFTS FOR THAT!

#5. The Smith causes the knees to come too far forward over the toes making the angle of the tibia too steep and reducing the effectiveness of the movement.
well...this can happen IF you try to keep your back verticle or if the feet are too far back but again it does not need to happen if the feet are placed under the bar in like manner to the free bar squat.

#6. The Smith forces the user to use it pre determined plain of motion.
Well this is plain BS! You can change the plain YOUR BODY moves along by altering foot position forward and back by small to tiny amounts. In fact you can make the Smith squat almost EXACTLY like the free bar squat.
It is actually GOOD that the bar moves straight up and down and this certainly will not hurt you UNLESS you have a severe foot position.

With any machine one has to adjust their body alignment so that the movement is natural and follows a natural groove. Some machine make it very hard to adjust ones bodily plain of motion but it is easy to do in the Smith.

*****IN FACT some people NEED to have their "natural" groove altered because they simply CANNOT SQUAT in good form due to crappy biomechanics.

Many simply cannot correct an excessive forward lean. I used to think that this was BS but it is NOT! Some people simply cannot safely squat with a free bar even after working on technique and ankle/hip flexibility. My wife is a prime example.......very long legs, short torso and a crappy squater. If anyone could get her to squat correctly it would be me but alas she cannot squat intensly and safely unless she uses the Smith machine. In the smith machine she can squat deep and pretty well and with no excessive forward lean and resultant back pain/injury.

#7. And the one that bugs me the most....The Smith machine(and all machines) do not produce "functional strength" in other sports and in day to day life beacuse it does not teach balance and doesn't work stabalizing muscles and muscle that stabalize lateral or twisting forces.
Well, to this is say a BIG BS! First of all machine work does indeed work stabalizers well.
But most importantly the body uses the power and strength from muscles and tendons and adapts it to sporting activities , such as the verticle jump, pushing a football sled, powerful skating. In order to see improvement in any particular sporting movement one HAS TO PRACTISE THAT PARTICULAR MOVEMENT. So if you want to skate fast and with power then practise proper skating, if you want to improve your verticle jump than practise it, if you want to have a good drive from the bottom in Olympic lifting then you have to practise the balistic drive from rock bottom in EXACTLY the manner used by Olympic lifters, AND IF YOU WANT TO HAVE A BIG POWER SQUAT THEN PRACTISE THAT etc etc.
Not only that but athletic ability is BORN and NOT made for the most part, especially such things as verticle jump and speed.

The use of free weights does NOT translate to better functional strength in day to day life or athletics...thats a BS pipe dream made up by haters of machines.


Lastly these people that hate the Smith, and I was one of them, usually hate all machines and site similar reasons NOT to use them.
Well to this I would like to also say BS...he he he. There are some excellent machines out there. One benefit of machines for the body builder is they allow more focus on effort and less on balance and skill. Some aalso have a better strength cure and eliminate stciking points etc.

AFTER ALL THAT SAID.... there is no machine that can duplicate any form of deadlift or the free squat.
The Smith machine is good for those that KNOW HOW to use it safely(no excessive foot positions) BUT THE FREE SQUAT IS BETTER if you can squat safely.

So if you use the Smith don't think you are doing yourself a favor by placing your feet far forward to the bar and going down half way...this does nothing. Use the Smith in like manner to the free squat with only very small foot alterations if any at all.

And please.....don't use the Smith because you are too lazy to learn to free squat.

RG

 

[b fold the truth]

Interesting...very interesting. I might use a Smith Machine for standing calf raises or maybe just adding a little AR or volume work...but never hard or intense on squats.

I believe that Dorian said that he switched to Smith Squats as to not continue to develop his glutes/hips. I'll see if I can find the quote in his book.

B True

 

[bignate73]

i dont know if i agree on this. safer for avoiding back tweaks is the only point i'll argue. the smith machine can actually facilitate a hip shift backwards because the bar doesnt move front to back or sagitally. when you are forced to use balance, you will keep the weight distributed over the rear to mid part of your foot on the descent and hopefully on the ascent as well. with a smith squat its too easy to throw balance to the wind, give way to a weak posterior chain and shift the hips back thereby dropping the torso. the hips are very mobile in a smith squat, you can shift forward to back much easier. if someone can really shoot their hips back, their erectors will take the brunt of the weight real quick. it will look more like a goodmorning squat vs something that had the makings of a regular squat.

another point to be argued is the stabilizer issue. there is no lateral or transverse movment with a bar the moves up and down. you dont get a chance to balance the bar much or keep your body from twisting. sure its safe and good for a cosmetic athlete, but someone with a multi faceted goal like being functionally strong AND looking good will be fooling themselves with the smith machine. just as an 800 lb leg press doesnt equate to an 800lb squat, neither will a 350lb smith squat equate to being able to balance 350 on your back and squat with it.

its all about goals i guess. functionally im of the mindset that you train with stimulation to many planes to keep from tweaking anything. if rotation is taken out of the equation, then its just keeping the weak link from being exposed, not fixing it. then something in the real world takes a so called "fit" person out with something very simple that training didnt prepare them for.

 

[Realgains]

i dont know if i agree on this. safer for avoiding back tweaks is the only point i'll argue. the smith machine can actually facilitate a hip shift backwards because the bar doesnt move front to back or sagitally. when you are forced to use balance, you will keep the weight distributed over the rear to mid part of your foot on the descent and hopefully on the ascent as well. with a smith squat its too easy to throw balance to the wind, give way to a weak posterior chain and shift the hips back thereby dropping the torso. the hips are very mobile in a smith squat, you can shift forward to back much easier. if someone can really shoot their hips back, their erectors will take the brunt of the weight real quick. it will look more like a goodmorning squat vs something that had the makings of a regular squat.

another point to be argued is the stabilizer issue. there is no lateral or transverse movment with a bar the moves up and down. you dont get a chance to balance the bar much or keep your body from twisting. sure its safe and good for a cosmetic athlete, but someone with a multi faceted goal like being functionally strong AND looking good will be fooling themselves with the smith machine. just as an 800 lb leg press doesnt equate to an 800lb squat, neither will a 350lb smith squat equate to being able to balance 350 on your back and squat with it.

its all about goals i guess. functionally im of the mindset that you train with stimulation to many planes to keep from tweaking anything. if rotation is taken out of the equation, then its just keeping the weak link from being exposed, not fixing it. then something in the real world takes a so called "fit" person out with something very simple that training didnt prepare them for.

All those problems you mention DO NOT need to happen if you keep your form solid...its like with any movement.

Also you are over emphasizing the benefit of free weights...you can get functionally strong with the smith....you don't need to rely upon a free squat, or any other free weight movement, to see functional strength in sports or life in general. Balance, athletic skill and power is learned by doing each particular sport and not via the use of free weights. ie: having a great free squat does not help explosiveness on the football field any more tha smith machine squats......its how you LEARN to control that basic strength and power that counts and this is done by practising the athletic movement itself......and a lot of it is also genetic. You are born athletic and not made athletic for the most part.

The body learns to recruit power and speed from its muscles and tendons by practise and free weights make little to no difference IMHO.

Functional strength for what bro...powerlifting and Olympic lifting where a skillfull squat is needed, YES!, but thats about it.

Also the rotational weak link you mention is always the weak link and doing free squats doesn't strengthen it...it just teaches you to balance properly in the squat so you don't expose that weak link to injury.


Also stabalizers are indeed worked with machines.

I increased my smith squat by 50 pounds last year and my back squat also went up 50 pounds.

I still prefer the regular back squat but i am just saying that the HUGE NEGATIVE OUTCRY that is sometimes heard about the Smith machine and machines in general has gone way too far.


RG

 

[Realgains]

Interesting...very interesting. I might use a Smith Machine for standing calf raises or maybe just adding a little AR or volume work...but never hard or intense on squats.

I believe that Dorian said that he switched to Smith Squats as to not continue to develop his glutes/hips. I'll see if I can find the quote in his book.

B True

I knew I would hear from you bro and I am glad you are here.....remember now I am not saying that the smith is better ...in fact I said the regular back squat is better(for most).

What I am trying to do here is blow the wistle on those that think Smith machine squats are crap and unsafe etc.

Dorian did say that he switched to smith squats to take the emphasis away from his glutes/hips but he also said this.....

"As I got stronger and my poundages increased, the movement(free squats) became more awkward, and was putting excessive and dangerous stress on my hip girdle. I was getting a lot of minor starins and tweaks. I perservered with the exercise until Oct 1989, when I finially accepted that my structure-narrow hips, longish legs- was not ideal for heavy barbell squats. Instead I began to rely on leg presses and smith machine squats as mass builders for the thighs" Dorian Yates from "A Warriors Story"

RG

 

[vinylgroover]

Foor those with a suspect back, i would say by all means use the smith machine. But if your back can handle free squats, i would not recommend smith machine.

I have had to resort to the smith machine for that very reason......but i hate it. My knees, which i have never had problems with, have started to cause me pain up and down the outside of both knees.......i attribute that pain to smith machine squats. I had never experienced it prior to doing them.

I would not use them if my back was ok and i could do free squats.

 

[Realgains]

Foor those with a suspect back, i would say by all means use the smith machine. But if your back can handle free squats, i would not recommend smith machine.

I have had to resort to the smith machine for that very reason......but i hate it. My knees, which i have never had problems with, have started to cause me pain up and down the outside of both knees.......i attribute that pain to smith machine squats. I had never experienced it prior to doing them.

I would not use them if my back was ok and i could do free squats.

I would agree with you on the first part in regard to back squating BUT the Smith machine squat should not hurt your knees any more than a free squat(which is zero) unless you have your feet placed either too far forward of in back of the bar. Position yourself like you would in the rack and you should not have knee problems.

RG

 

[vinylgroover]

I would agree with you on the first part in regard to back squating BUT the Smith machine squat should not hurt your knees any more than a free squat(which is zero) unless you have your feet placed either too far forward of in back of the bar. Position yourself like you would in the rack and you should not have knee problems.

RG

My form mimics that of a back squat totally. The pain started 2 or 3 weeks into smith machine squatting......with no other change in my leg routine. I just don't like the position it puts you in.......i just don't think the body is meant to be 'locked' into a position like that.

 

[Realgains]

My form mimics that of a back squat totally. The pain started 2 or 3 weeks into smith machine squatting......with no other change in my leg routine. I just don't like the position it puts you in.......i just don't think the body is meant to be 'locked' into a position like that.

But bro....the only thing that is locked in is the straight up and down movement of the weight......you can change the movement your body takes by making small to tiny adjustments to your feet forward and back.

But perhaps you do not squat straight up and down like me and that may be giving you a problem.

RG

 

[Nonerz]

RG, I think the negative comments about the Smith Machine stem from seeing so many people using it exclusively for squats, rather than putting in the time and effort necessary to perfect their form in a free squat. Most of the time the Smith bashing is locker room talk...to be taken with a grain of salt. The Smith, in my opinion, is limiting...which is good, if that's what you're looking for.

Yes, it amuses me when I see a guy who is doing quarter squats on the Smith (usually with poor form and too much weight). I think the offenders could make better use of their time doing something else.

So for what it's worth, if you say that ".... there is no machine that can duplicate any form of deadlift or the free squat.
The Smith machine is good for those that KNOW HOW to use it safely(no excessive foot positions) BUT THE FREE SQUAT IS BETTER if you can squat safely," then I 100% agree with you. It just seems as though you are defending the Smith Machine a bit much.

Then again, what do I know anyway?!