How does Israel control the US

[Code]

A liberal democracy in a world we have absolutely no democratic allies and that is 100% hostile towards the US.

But I think that their democratic stance is, by and large, a neccesity rather than by choice. In other words, the US would never support a jewish nation that actually enforced things as prescribed by the Old Testament.

are a liberal democracy

 

[Lao Tzu]

A liberal democracy in a world we have absolutely no democratic allies and that is 100% hostile towards the US.

But I think that their democratic stance is, by and large, a neccesity rather than by choice. In other words, the US would never support a jewish nation that actually enforced things as prescribed by the Old Testament.

Yeah true, they are hostile towards us. However i dont think Israel is the begin all/end all of why they hate us. Had Israel never existed they'd probably still hate the US just not as much.

I dont think the average Israeli on the street wants to live in a theocracy. Besides, alot of Israel's founders & forefathers were immigrants from western nations so they took western values with them.

 

[Code]

Agreed that the Middle East would still be at odds in a geo-political sense, even if Israel had never been formed by the United Nations.

But then, the tension would be limited in a more in-direct fashion. Not the "flying planes into buildings" variety.

It's not myth that Israel helps shape much of the United States' foriegn policy, simply by being our "Lighthouse" ally in the Middle East. But the relationship goes much deeper and unfortunately treads on religious grounds.

Yeah true, they are hostile towards us. However i dont think Israel is the begin all/end all of why they hate us. Had Israel never existed they'd probably still hate the US just not as much.

I dont think the average Israeli on the street wants to live in a theocracy. Besides, alot of Israel's founders & forefathers were immigrants from western nations so they took western values with them.

 

[bluepeter]

Well

1. the palestinians support(ed) Hussein, Bin Ladin, Khomeni & the USSR. Israel allied with the US against them.

2. palestinian culture is different from US culture. Israeli & US culture are almost identical.

3. Israelis like us, palestinians hate us

4. Israel is the only democracy in the middle east & the only country rated 'free' by freedom house (which gauges political & civil rights of inhabitants) in the middle east. The US supposedly supports freedom & democracy.

How do we 'always' align with Israel? Hasn't the US condemned the building of the wall that annexes parts of the west bank? didnt the us try to stop the invasion of Jenin? I have learned from reading that when people (at least muslims) say the US offers 'blind support' of Israel what they really mean is we don't offer unconditional blind support for the Palestinians like they do. I doubt you fit this category, but when phrases like blind support or unconditional support or always support Israel comes up i always think of that.

1. The palestinians supported many of these people/causes because they were a) muslim and muslims have a problem/habit of blindly following other muslims and muslim causes and b) they were aligned against the U.S.
While the U.S. align their money/political might with countries/causes that further their interests and go against the interests of their 'enemies', many other countries in the world do the same when it comes to the U.S. 2 can play the game

2. A major beef many have with the U.S. 'you don't speak english or eat hamburgers? get outta here'

3. I wonder why?

4. Everyone knows that the U.S. supports whoever the hell they want to further their interests regardless of race, religion, colour or creed. This is the one area where you could argue the U.S. are race/religion tolerant

I'm not saying that the U.S. aligns with Israel on every issue. What you have been reading is not what intelligent muslims think. I am a muslim and think that both sides in this dispute are wrong. Suicide bombing is wrong and brutal Israeli suppression of Palestinians is wrong. My problem is that while they may not have supported Israel on 'every' front in this conflict, they have clearly favoured them over the Palestinians.

You need to understand that muslims see the U.S. as selective in their support. Why did they not step in sooner in Bosnia when muslims were being massacred. Why don't they do more to end the conflict between Israel and the Palestinians instead of catering to Israeli whims. Why do they attack muslim countries like Iraq and Afghanistan. I don't think like this but I have to agree that the evidence adds up....

 

[Lao Tzu]

Agreed that the Middle East would still be at odds in a geo-political sense, even if Israel had never been formed by the United Nations.

But then, the tension would be limited in a more in-direct fashion. Not the "flying planes into buildings" variety.

It's not myth that Israel helps shape much of the United States' foriegn policy, simply by being our "Lighthouse" ally in the Middle East. But the relationship goes much deeper and unfortunately treads on religious grounds.

Hmm. i kindof agree but i dont too. from what i understand Bin Ladin didn't care about Israel as much as things like troops in Saudi Arabia or US culture imposing itself on Muslim land. However had the US never supported Israel maybe terrorists wouldn't hate us as bad so its a toss up.

 

[Lao Tzu]

1. The palestinians supported many of these people/causes because they were a) muslim and muslims have a problem/habit of blindly following other muslims and muslim causes and b) they were aligned against the U.S.
While the U.S. align their money/political might with countries/causes that further their interests and go against the interests of their 'enemies', many other countries in the world do the same when it comes to the U.S. 2 can play the game

2. A major beef many have with the U.S. 'you don't speak english or eat hamburgers? get outta here'

3. I wonder why?

4. Everyone knows that the U.S. supports whoever the hell they want to further their interests regardless of race, religion, colour or creed. This is the one area where you could argue the U.S. are race/religion tolerant

I'm not saying that the U.S. aligns with Israel on every issue. What you have been reading is not what intelligent muslims think. I am a muslim and think that both sides in this dispute are wrong. Suicide bombing is wrong and brutal Israeli suppression of Palestinians is wrong. My problem is that while they may not have supported Israel on 'every' front in this conflict, they have clearly favoured them over the Palestinians.

You need to understand that muslims see the U.S. as selective in their support. Why did they not step in sooner in Bosnia when muslims were being massacred. Why don't they do more to end the conflict between Israel and the Palestinians instead of catering to Israeli whims. Why do they attack muslim countries like Iraq and Afghanistan. I don't think like this but I have to agree that the evidence adds up....

1. Agreed, but it is what it is. Who are muslims going to support in a war of words, other muslims or infidels? same with the US, who is the US going to support our allies who like us and whose culture we share or people who sympathize with our enemies?

3. im not talking just about hamburgers, im talking about open society, liberal democracy, religious freedom, technological advancement, literacy & education, etc. The Israelis have much more in common with the US on these issues than the palestinians do.

4. Im not going to deny that, and even i find it somewhat nauseating that the US suddenly opposes terrorism even though we used terrorism and supported terrorists open in the 80s in latin america & the middle east to fight communism. Buuuuut, i think the US would prefer to ally with a liberal democracy rather than a theocracy given the chance, and Israel is a liberal democracy.

We attack muslim countries because they are where the people who pose a threat to us are at. There are more muslims in Indonesia than all the middle east countries combined (more or less) but we don't invade indonesia because there really aren't any major terrorists there like Afghanistan.

Would you say the average muslim supported the US intervention in Bosnia?

 

[Code]

Following Bin Laden's political history is easily skewed.
Because he was US backed for a while(and Saddam who can loosely be linked to him was also US backed at the same time), so for that period of time he was US aligned (as was Saddam).

And he slowly moved away from that. And this allows Talk Heads and analysts to skew select data-sets to pretty much spin him in a good/bad/worse light.

Hmm. i kindof agree but i dont too. from what i understand Bin Ladin didn't care about Israel as much as things like troops in Saudi Arabia or US culture imposing itself on Muslim land. However had the US never supported Israel maybe terrorists wouldn't hate us as bad so its a toss up.

 

[the nature boy]

Yeah true, they are hostile towards us. However i dont think Israel is the begin all/end all of why they hate us. Had Israel never existed they'd probably still hate the US just not as much.

I dont think the average Israeli on the street wants to live in a theocracy. Besides, alot of Israel's founders & forefathers were immigrants from western nations so they took western values with them.

well considering the US has played roles in supporting various dictators in that region might explain why arabs are hostile towards the US.

also keep in mind there is resentment towards the west as a whole thanks to the the occupation of the middle east by the british and French... not sure who else ruled over that area.

 

[Lao Tzu]

well considering the US has played roles in supporting various dictators in that region might explain why arabs are hostile towards the US.

also keep in mind there is resentment towards the west as a whole thanks to the the occupation of the middle east by the british and French... not sure who else ruled over that area.

Yes we have supported dictators. However that is really all there is to choose from in that area, and the US has also supported democracies like israel, and we are trying to convert Afghanistan & Iraq into respectable democracies in 2004.

 

[bluepeter]

1. Agreed, but it is what it is. Who are muslims going to support in a war of words, other muslims or infidels? same with the US, who is the US going to support our allies who like us and whose culture we share or people who sympathize with our enemies?

3. im not talking just about hamburgers, im talking about open society, liberal democracy, religious freedom, technological advancement, literacy & education, etc. The Israelis have much more in common with the US on these issues than the palestinians do.

4. Im not going to deny that, and even i find it somewhat nauseating that the US suddenly opposes terrorism even though we used terrorism and supported terrorists open in the 80s in latin america & the middle east to fight communism. Buuuuut, i think the US would prefer to ally with a liberal democracy rather than a repressive theocracy given the chance, and Israel is a liberal democracy.

We attack muslim countries because they are where the people who pose a threat to us are at. There are more muslims in Indonesia than all the middle east countries combined (more or less) but we don't invade indonesia because there really aren't any major terrorists there like Afghanistan.

Would you say the average muslim supported the US intervention in Bosnia?

1. Also agree

3. While I agree kind of, why do you think the Palestinians have so little in common with the U.S. in these areas? At least partly because of Israeli suppression....

4. Don't think we disagree here

I would think the average muslim, while glad that the situation in Bosnia was resolved, would have been upset that it was allowed to go on that long and probably took a cynical view of the U.S. involvement. 'Are they intervening because it furthers their interests in some way?', 'Are they only responding to international pressure?' etc.

By the way, I am a muslim because it was important to my wife that I convert when we were married. I am not religious at all and think religion is a cancer (what we do for women! ).
However, being in that world does give me some insight I likely wouldn't have had otherwise...