HCG variances

[Mavy]

Hmm ... This could get interesting now. Damn .. how I wish there was an EXPERIENCED endocrinologist who could post on this topic, and try to put some form of closure to this kind of thing, because like I say .. this could go on for years which way is best. And I am sure it there will never be 1 magic formula. I agree with you in the fact that most endocrinologists probably are more skilled at "fixing" a problem, and not "prevention" during a steroid cycle. But really since none of us know either, that is all that we are doing is speculating.

I am on a waiting list for an endocrinologost for a family doctor. Damn is he going to regret it if he accepts me. I will be going in once a week with the studies for him to read, lol.

 

[GoldenDelicious]

mavy, id probably go off what swale says. he sees hundreds of patients, some are post cycle/severely supressed, some are mid cycle, he has bloods from all of them with corresponding info on relevant biological markers, he fiddles with their drug regimes intensely, and what i have read of his makes me think that the during cycle HCG regimen is the way to go for the lowest risk, fastest recovery steroid cycle.

the source of the confusion imo is that HCG post cycle will work to some degree, even well...and so youre going to get some people swearing by it. logically though, the during HCG regimen makes more sense, AND is backed up by real world success as per swales practice. more evidence will become available in the near future, since steroid use is becoming more accepted in the case of various wasting diseases, such as AIDS, cancer, post chemotherapy etc and so there will be a few qualified researchers with decent study protocols who should fairly well put this issue to rest.

for now though, i feel that there is a lack of direct, comparitive evidence, and so at best, youre going to get an incomplete reply imo

cheerios

 

[MACHI]

mavy, id probably go off what swale says. he sees hundreds of patients, some are post cycle/severely supressed, some are mid cycle, he has bloods from all of them with corresponding info on relevant biological markers, he fiddles with their drug regimes intensely, and what i have read of his makes me think that the during cycle HCG regimen is the way to go for the lowest risk, fastest recovery steroid cycle.

the source of the confusion imo is that HCG post cycle will work to some degree, even well...and so youre going to get some people swearing by it. logically though, the during HCG regimen makes more sense, AND is backed up by real world success as per swales practice. more evidence will become available in the near future, since steroid use is becoming more accepted in the case of various wasting diseases, such as AIDS, cancer, post chemotherapy etc and so there will be a few qualified researchers with decent study protocols who should fairly well put this issue to rest.

for now though, i feel that there is a lack of direct, comparitive evidence, and so at best, youre going to get an incomplete reply imo

cheerios

Golden - I'm curious if you know how much more/less potent HCG is than LH on a molecule for molecule basis when it comes to stimulating test production. Also I asked jenetic this next question earlier. Can you direct me towards info that involves tamoxifen being used specifically as a synergist with HCG to prevent lyedig cell desensitization?

Thanks for your replies too

 

[Jenetic]

Leydig cell desensitization from HCG has been shown to be blocked/minimized by Nolvadex. This occurs by supressing HCG's ability to inhibit the conversion of 17 alpha hydroxyprogesterone to testosterone.

Modulation of Leydig Cell Androgen Biosynthesis and Cytochrome P-450 Levels during Estrogen Treatment and Human Chorionic Gonadotropin induced Desensitization

The similarity of estrogen dependent lesions to those produced by hCG treatment further indicates the involvement of endogenous estrogen in the development of the microsomal enzymatic lesions in gonadotropin-induced desensitization of testicular androgen production.

Tamoxifen suppresses gonadotropin-induced 17 alpha-hydroxyprogesterone accumulation in normal men.

Simultaneous administration of hCG and the estrogen antagonist tamoxifen (20 mg twice daily) almost completely abolished the hCG-induced steroidogenic block localized between 17 OHP and T (17 OHP to T ratio at 24 h, 1.1 +/- 0.1 times baseline; P < 0.01 vs. hCG alone). These data indirectly suggest that, in man, the hCG-induced steroidogenic lesion might be mediated through its estrogen-stimulating effect.

Effect of an antiestrogen on the testicular response to acute and chronic administration of hCG in normal and hypogonadotropic hypogonadic men: tamoxifen and testicular response to hCG.

17OHP rose with hCG alone, but not with hCG + Tx in both groups. E, SHBG and 17OHP/T ratio did not change after treatments. hCG tests: E increased 24 h following hCG administration in every test. The ratio 17OHP/T rose at 24 h in the first and second test but in the third test it did not change. These results support the role of E in the acute hCG-induced Leydig cell desensitization.

Jenetic

 

[GoldenDelicious]

Golden - I'm curious if you know how much more/less potent HCG is than LH on a molecule for molecule basis when it comes to stimulating test production. Also I asked jenetic this next question earlier. Can you direct me towards info that involves tamoxifen being used specifically as a synergist with HCG to prevent lyedig cell desensitization?

Thanks for your replies too

lol im glad that youre not asking for any, you know, ultra specific info thats going to be a huge pain in the ass to find, or anything

truthfully, i wouldnt know what the molar potency for those drugs is, though nor would it matter, because you could just increase/decrease the dose of either. its not like we dose people with xyz molecules of lh or hcg, we have already established working milligram doses, adn use those. the other thing is, in the case of HCG, it does more than just stimulate LH receptors. its a complicated, versatile little hormone (meaning, its a pain in the ass) that modulates/affects other processes in the body, and is not merely an LH agonist. why, are you thinking of using LH rather than hcg during the cycle? or are you just curious about how effective one is against the other (or worse, are you thinking of using both? )

as for your latter question, well, i couldnt give you any data collected from people trying to do just that...since i dont think anyone has tried it in a clinical setting just yet. I mean, using both at once isnt a bad idea (i have thought of this in the past...but then thought fuck it, save the tamox for when you need rescue from gyno and forget about it) but id have to look at the mechanism of action specifically, and see if it makes sense pharmacologically...dunno...might have to get back to you on this one

(remind me if i dont respond in a day or two, im a bit tardy with things like this, and its late where i am just now )

 

[MACHI]

Jenetic

Thanks jenetic. I read that before but I thought I asked you in one of my earlier posts where you got the info and you never responded. My bad. Where did you get it? I'd like to read the full studies......

MACHI

 

[MACHI]

lol im glad that youre not asking for any, you know, ultra specific info thats going to be a huge pain in the ass to find, or anything

truthfully, i wouldnt know what the molar potency for those drugs is, though nor would it matter, because you could just increase/decrease the dose of either. its not like we dose people with xyz molecules of lh or hcg, we have already established working milligram doses, adn use those. the other thing is, in the case of HCG, it does more than just stimulate LH receptors. its a complicated, versatile little hormone (meaning, its a pain in the ass) that modulates/affects other processes in the body, and is not merely an LH agonist. why, are you thinking of using LH rather than hcg during the cycle? or are you just curious about how effective one is against the other (or worse, are you thinking of using both? )

as for your latter question, well, i couldnt give you any data collected from people trying to do just that...since i dont think anyone has tried it in a clinical setting just yet. I mean, using both at once isnt a bad idea (i have thought of this in the past...but then thought fuck it, save the tamox for when you need rescue from gyno and forget about it) but id have to look at the mechanism of action specifically, and see if it makes sense pharmacologically...dunno...might have to get back to you on this one

(remind me if i dont respond in a day or two, im a bit tardy with things like this, and its late where i am just now )

Golden, sorry lol.
The reason I was curious of the molecular potency of the two cpds is for dosage calculations. Instead of using the trial and error doses I was wondering if you could just match the dosages (much like molar ratios) of HCG to the right ratio of potency to HCG/LH. The purpose of this would be to give greater assurance that you weren't taking supraphysiological doses of HCG DURING your cycle. I was thinking that if this was the case you'd be prone to desensitization. I mean how do we know that 500IU a week is not contributing towards desensitization when 300IU's a week might be the equivilant......

For the second question I actually was looking for the exact chemical mechanism of action. Jenetic posted something damned close if not 'it' but the description wasn't as detailed as what I was looking for.

Thanks bro

 

[GoldenDelicious]

Golden, sorry lol.
The reason I was curious of the molecular potency of the two cpds is for dosage calculations. Instead of using the trial and error doses I was wondering if you could just match the dosages (much like molar ratios) of HCG to the right ratio of potency to HCG/LH. The purpose of this would be to give greater assurance that you weren't taking supraphysiological doses of HCG DURING your cycle. I was thinking that if this was the case you'd be prone to desensitization. I mean how do we know that 500IU a week is not contributing towards desensitization when 300IU's a week might be the equivilant......

i would follow the swale protocol, because he has used a bit of trial and error to arrive at the doses he suggests.

by the way, HCG isnt endogenous to men, so youre supraphysiological no matter waht you do but i get what youre talking about (what, me ballbreaker?)

For the second question I actually was looking for the exact chemical mechanism of action. Jenetic posted something damned close if not 'it' but the description wasn't as detailed as what I was looking for.

Thanks bro

i looked for it once, didnt find it. granted i could ahve tried harder

 

[ocisbomb]

I've been waiting for this thread. Awesome.

 

[Mavy]

mavy, id probably go off what swale says. he sees hundreds of patients, some are post cycle/severely supressed, some are mid cycle, he has bloods from all of them with corresponding info on relevant biological markers, he fiddles with their drug regimes intensely, and what i have read of his makes me think that the during cycle HCG regimen is the way to go for the lowest risk, fastest recovery steroid cycle.

the source of the confusion imo is that HCG post cycle will work to some degree, even well...and so youre going to get some people swearing by it. logically though, the during HCG regimen makes more sense, AND is backed up by real world success as per swales practice. more evidence will become available in the near future, since steroid use is becoming more accepted in the case of various wasting diseases, such as AIDS, cancer, post chemotherapy etc and so there will be a few qualified researchers with decent study protocols who should fairly well put this issue to rest.

for now though, i feel that there is a lack of direct, comparitive evidence, and so at best, youre going to get an incomplete reply imo

cheerios

gd, who is this swale character that I always here people talk about? I have heard very conflucting things about this guy, and the general concensus I have heard about the guy is that he is really nothing more than a business man? Is this where you are getting your theories from, or these your own? Can you post his PCT protocol here? Or his during cycle HCG usage protocol? Just curious to see what he has to say. Also, where does he post? And why is there so much 'dis' towards the guy? Some folks on VIP have told me that he had taken info that has been around for years, and started pimping it out as his special recovery theory, and is somehow making quite a bit of cash from it. I am not trying to dis the guy, this is just some of the rumors I have heard from a few people on the subject, maybe you can shed some light.

Cheers,
Mavy