HCG variances

[Jenetic]

Jenetic,

DO you mean 500-1000 iu per day for seven days during cycle?

Yes, that is correct.

Jenetic

 

[Jenetic]

Damn jenetic! Right when you think you have something figured out. So how does your PCT protocol differ from drjmws? You believe in HCG both during cycle AND in PCT? Where drjmw only reccommends it during PCT? BTW, that HRT statement was what I was told by drjmw, I was just passing it along. I believe that he thought, if his PCT protocal failed more than a few times, that there was a "chance" the patient may require HRT. Obviously it seems there are other methods that can be tried. Epsecially after reading your long shut down thread from what I remember.

So you think that it is a mistake to run HCG during, but after a cycle? Because of the effect is will have on of LH, FSH and T levels. Which is also the reason why nolva is a must as T levels start to go back up to their normal range? Good info bro. I was hoping you would post on this. I still feel somewhat confused, I think that I am just looking for the 1 proven during/PCT formula that is LAW, lol. not the case I guess with all the different cycle people use. HCG does seem like something that can cause more harm than good if used incorrrectly.

Mavy

In general, my PCT protocol is about the same as DrJMW's which is 1,000 IUs HCG 3x/wk (mon/wed/fri) in combination with 20 mgs Nolvadex ED for a total of 3 weeks. Then, discontinue HCG and continue with 20 mgs Nolvadex ED for an additional 3 weeks. For the beginner AAS user, this is more than sufficient.

The majority of my experience is with intermediate to advanced athletes whom have completed multiple cycles with higher dosages. Therefore, based upon blood work, we have established that 1,500 IUs 3x/wk (mon/wed/fri) to be the optimal range to begin with. The Nolvadex dosage remains constant, however Clomid is utilized throughout PCT at 50-100 mgs ED during the first 3 weeks and 50 mgs ED for the last 3 weeks.

DrJMW's belief that incorporating HCG during the cycle is not necessary and may result in Leydig cell desensitization is correct for the most part. First, the cycle duration that both he and I recommend is 8 weeks. There is absolutely no reason that significant gains cannot be achieved in 8 weeks. Keeping in mind the 8 week cycle duration and realistic dosages, 500 mgs Testosterone EW and 400 mgs Equipoise EW for example, HCG will not be necessary during the cycle and is best utilized post cycle. Second, if HCG is used without Nolvadex, the prolonged dosage can result in Leydig cell desensitization which may render HCG usage during PCT to be ineffective if and when needed. As I have previously addressed, Nolvadex prevents the Leydig cell desensitization encountered with HCG, therefore there is no problem with using HCG during your cycle as long as Nolvadex is incorporated.

My protocol does include HCG in combination with Nolvadex during prolonged (12+/wks) and high dosage (1,000+mgs/wk) cycles. In this case, 500-1,000 IUs HCG ED in combination with 20 mgs Nolvadex ED for 7 days consecutively is administered mid cycle or intermittently (every 6-8 weeks) during the cycle. Maintaining testicular volume during cycle does in fact improve recovery when compared to atrophied testes when beginning PCT.

The only other difference in my protocol is when testicular volume has not been restored from HCG post cycle. In this case, HCG is continued with the necessary adjustments in dosage and frequency until an increase in testicular volume has been achieved. Subsequent changes will be based upon the individual’s response to each particular stage. I won’t go into further details here since every case varies and deserves an individualized response.

As you can see by now, I have nothing against HCG usage during a cycle if and when it is warranted, but the emphasis is placed on always incorporating HCG during PCT to insure an optimal recovery.

Jenetic

 

[ATLmuscles]

Yes, that is correct.

Jenetic

Thanks, man. I'm in week-9 of a lnoger cycle, and I just did 1,000 iu HCG last night. I've always been confused about HCG during a cycle and I've done it in one-week or so "spurts" in a longer cycle, as opposed to lower dose throughout. Of course alot of what we do as bosybuilders is using these drugs in a manner that they were not intended, so there is much trial and error. YOu seem really knowledgeable. Is this your field, or just research you've done on your own.

Thanks again. I

 

[Paulo]

Thanks, man. I'm in week-9 of a lnoger cycle, and I just did 1,000 iu HCG last night. I've always been confused about HCG during a cycle and I've done it in one-week or so "spurts" in a longer cycle, as opposed to lower dose throughout. Of course alot of what we do as bosybuilders is using these drugs in a manner that they were not intended, so there is much trial and error. YOu seem really knowledgeable. Is this your field, or just research you've done on your own.

Thanks again. I

I realize this is not my question to answer, but after a good bit of correspondence, I've come to gather that he's actually a 14 year old autistic midget PCT savant.

Needless to say, he's a very special and unique young man who we should all love and treasure.

 

[Mavy]

THese kind of threads are priceless in my mind. And very imporant as well. Thanks for sharing Jenetic.

Would you say that DC (during cycle, lol) HCG usage can really be dependant on what choices of gear a user decides to do?

In MD magazine a couple months ago there was an article and several studies that showed both nandrolone and tren can actually desensitise the leydig cells to pituitary hormones, hence the reason why many people report feeling "shut down hard" while taking tren or Deca. Would you say it would be more important to take DC HCG while running a tren or Deca cycle (even if say it was only a 6 week cycle only of tren) as compared to a longer cycle without these compounds like say 12 weeks of test and EQ for example?

Seems to be a high abundance of people these days running shorter 4-6 week tren cycles or NPP cycles. Would you think these cycles would still justify running HCG during cycle because of the choices of gear being used, even though its only being used for a short time frame?

 

[Jenetic]

THese kind of threads are priceless in my mind. And very imporant as well. Thanks for sharing Jenetic.

Would you say that DC (during cycle, lol) HCG usage can really be dependant on what choices of gear a user decides to do?

In MD magazine a couple months ago there was an article and several studies that showed both nandrolone and tren can actually desensitise the leydig cells to pituitary hormones, hence the reason why many people report feeling "shut down hard" while taking tren or Deca. Would you say it would be more important to take DC HCG while running a tren or Deca cycle (even if say it was only a 6 week cycle only of tren) as compared to a longer cycle without these compounds like say 12 weeks of test and EQ for example?

Seems to be a high abundance of people these days running shorter 4-6 week tren cycles or NPP cycles. Would you think these cycles would still justify running HCG during cycle because of the choices of gear being used, even though its only being used for a short time frame?

Nandrolones are well know for their ability to increase prolactin and prolactin is notorious for it's negative impact on libido and recovery. Therefore, it's not about using HCG during cycle, but more importantly to manage prolactin.

Factors that may complicate and/or delay recovery are elevated levels of estrogen and prolactin. Both of these hormones, when elevated, exert negative feedback on the HPTA. Estrogen and its side effects can be controlled by using an aromatase inhibitor such as Aromasin, Femara and Arimidex during cycles including aromatizing AAS. Prolactin and its side effects can be controlled by using an anti prolactin such as Dostinex or Bromocriptine during cycles containing nandrolones. If these measures have not been addressed during the cycle, they will need to be addressed during PCT.

Jenetic

 

[desman]

i find taking 500iu EOD 3 weeks at end of cycle and following a standard clomid/nolva regime works well for me

 

[LVTitan]

I just responded to a similar question on another board, according to DrJMW it should be taken IM per the instructions from the manufacturers. I have also called a ob/gyn friend of mine and asked his opinion. He said that it will work both ways, but in his office they go with IM using a 23 ga 1.5 to the glutes.

u can use a 29g if you want. i use a 25g for my hcg, and use my quads

 

[MACHI]

Extremely valuable info jenetic. Thanks for taking the time to post. I was away for awhile and just got done thoroughly reading everyones' posts since my last post. I have HCG use and PCT all figured out now, j/k but i have a pretty good idea. Using tamoxifen specifically as a synergist to prevent HCG induced lyedig cell desensitization was a new concept to me. In my next period of free time i'm going to read up more on that. Do you know of any literature you can direct me to on that?

Also, you have clients that you train while monitoring their 'supplement' usage? It sounds as though you really speak from first hand experience with this stuff. I look foward to picking your brain.....

Thanks

 

[GoldenDelicious]

heyas, as usual, didnt read above replies to avoid bias

pharmacist, for those that dont know

id go for doing it during cycle, for a couple of reasons: 1) there is no guarantee that atrophy incurred during cycle is reversible upon LH receptor agonism post cycle, meaning that if yo uuse it post cycle, youre at risk of permanent atrophy that would not occur in teh case of administration during the cycle and 2) hcg will interfere with normal LH regulation as per normal recovery if used post cycle, meaning that recovery will in fact be staggered - your FSH etc will get back online, but LH production should to some degree be supressed. it is non sensical to me to use an LH agonist in the form of HCG post cycle when you are already going to be using testicular stimulants in the form of nolva/clomid, and of course, you are relying on the lack of LH stimulation on the testes to actually precipitate endogenous LH production. if youre going to supplement HCG, then youre going to keep negative pressure on the feedback loop that fucks up your HPTA in the first place, which is the opposite of what you want to do.

just because supplementing HCG is what "endocrinologists have always done" doesnt mean that it is neccessarily the right thing to do, and furthermore, i do not think that there have been too many endocrinologists in the past who have been proactive about integrating HCG use into a steroid users active cycle; for whatever reasons, ethical, moral etc, endocrinologists in the past would have been treating patients in a post cycle setting, and in that context, well, HCG post cycle isnt a bad idea.

long story short: hcg can be useful post cycle, but nowhere near as useful as using it during cycle.

cheers