HCG variances

[sigmund]

No worries Mavy - although I included the link it's probably best you cut and paste the Doc's favoured PCT protocol, as it's easier for bro's to read the info from just one thread

So any thoughts on this:

"Safe but effective HCG therapy consists of about 300 to 500 IU, administered before sleep, 2 to 5 times a week depending upon your responsiveness. This protocol more closely mimics the body's natural physiologic rhythm of LH production and should not be run for more than 4 weeks."

I'd also be interested to hear what people think about HCG causing permanent damage. Any idea what approx doses / duration could lead to this?

 

[kahbab]

i have been following this thread very closely because i to am confused about HCG doses, needle sizes, and times. i am about to start a 10 week cycle of test enth and i am still not sure about what to do with the HCG. the one thing that i see strange about this post is that i states 1,000 iu HCG IM, meaning intramuscular. everything i have read so far says that HCG needs to be taken subcutaniously so what is really going on? bump for those who know.

Here is Drjmw's PCT protocol.

I have posted this recovery cycle many times. Since this is a new category, I will repost. This recovery cycle works 100% of the time. In extreme cases, it actually needs to be done twice. This recovery cycle is predicated on the fact that the athlete has something to recover. Baseline blood testing of testosterone levels, estradiol levels, and prolactin levels will tell the athlete the whole story. If the athlete's baseline Testos levels are low to low-normal of the range, then recovery is a waste of time. If the athlete's levels are in the middle, then a recovery cycle may be worth it to see the body's reaction.

Begin this cycle the week after last AAS intake.
Weeks one thru three: 1,000U HCG, IM, Monday, Wednesday, Friday; 20mg Nolvadex daily. [50mg clomid daily is added to the cycle if the athlete is coming off a prolonged (12 week+), 600mg+total, weekly AAS dosing (heavy)].

Weeks four thru six: 20mg Nolvadex daily. (50mg Clomid daily if you used it the first three weeks)

Weeks seven, eight: clean. Use this time to evaluate your previous AAS cycle and your recovery. Begin planning your next AAS cycle.

I have posted the following statement a million times, and still 95% of the steroid athletes ignore it: "Blood testing is essential to determine your baseline, see how your body reacts and to see if you recover."

The medications for this cycle are readily available, so there is no excuse. Remem

ber, the antiestrogens and recovery meds are just as important (or more so) than the AAS.

 

[SuperDawgy]

everything i have read so far says that HCG needs to be taken subcutaniously so what is really going on? bump for those who know.

I just responded to a similar question on another board, according to DrJMW it should be taken IM per the instructions from the manufacturers. I have also called a ob/gyn friend of mine and asked his opinion. He said that it will work both ways, but in his office they go with IM using a 23 ga 1.5 to the glutes.

 

[MACHI]

This is a really good thread, shame DrJMW isn't around anymore to contribute. I've copied the above question / answer from http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showthread.php?t=330386 (it also contains the Doc's favoured PCT regime)......................

From what I've read / experienced - many doctors are unsure about the proper dosage for HCG. In fact, the AACE clinical guidelines (written in 1996 and considered outdated by many) state HCG dosages should be 1000 to 2000 IU, two or three times a week.

Studies have demonstrated that HCG dosage levels of about 5,000 IU per week or more can cause permanent damage to the testicles (see Medline articles 6210708 and 3583230). These studies have shown that such excessive HCG dosages taken long-term result in testicular desensitization (to future stimulation by LH or HCG). In other words, long-term, such excessive dosages of HCG will result in primary hypogonadism.

Although I am unsure if the following protocol is best for everybody I've come across it before and thought I'd post it for your opinions:

"Safe but effective HCG therapy consists of about 300 to 500 IU, administered before sleep, 2 to 5 times a week depending upon your responsiveness. This protocol more closely mimics the body's natural physiologic rhythm of LH production and should not be run for more than 4 weeks."

Good post sigmund. Nice info.

I'm getting a really good idea of what doses to take but not when. I still have yet to find which is better, during a cycle or as PCT. In either case. I find that its safe to say use conservative doses (2000-3000IU's per week broken up into increments so as not to overload your testies all at one time) so long as you have your pre cycle test levels measured. In that case, as far as the duration of the HCG doses are concerned you'll definitely know when to stop using it provided you get your test levels measured during PCT to use them as a stop point. I guess it goes contrary to just recommending 3-4 week PCT becuase, as was shown in the drmj thread, different people recover at different times after different cycles. The only definitive way to know when to stop your PCT is to get your endogenous test levels measured and have them compared to your pre cycle levels like was said in drmj's thread. I think your protocol is right on except for its duration. Like I previously said I think duration is dependent on the monitoring of your test levels provided your not taking supraphysiological doses.

Still trying to find info that compare during cycle use to PCT use.....I guess thats the only ? I still have left......

 

[Jenetic]

Leydig cell desensitization from HCG has been shown to be blocked/minimized by Nolvadex. This occurs by supressing HCG's ability to inhibit the conversion of 17 alpha hydroxyprogesterone to testosterone.

Modulation of Leydig Cell Androgen Biosynthesis and Cytochrome P-450 Levels during Estrogen Treatment and Human Chorionic Gonadotropin induced Desensitization

The similarity of estrogen dependent lesions to those produced by hCG treatment further indicates the involvement of endogenous estrogen in the development of the microsomal enzymatic lesions in gonadotropin-induced desensitization of testicular androgen production.

Tamoxifen suppresses gonadotropin-induced 17 alpha-hydroxyprogesterone accumulation in normal men.

Simultaneous administration of hCG and the estrogen antagonist tamoxifen (20 mg twice daily) almost completely abolished the hCG-induced steroidogenic block localized between 17 OHP and T (17 OHP to T ratio at 24 h, 1.1 +/- 0.1 times baseline; P < 0.01 vs. hCG alone). These data indirectly suggest that, in man, the hCG-induced steroidogenic lesion might be mediated through its estrogen-stimulating effect.

Effect of an antiestrogen on the testicular response to acute and chronic administration of hCG in normal and hypogonadotropic hypogonadic men: tamoxifen and testicular response to hCG.

17OHP rose with hCG alone, but not with hCG + Tx in both groups. E, SHBG and 17OHP/T ratio did not change after treatments. hCG tests: E increased 24 h following hCG administration in every test. The ratio 17OHP/T rose at 24 h in the first and second test but in the third test it did not change. These results support the role of E in the acute hCG-induced Leydig cell desensitization.

Bring it? Brought!

Jenetic

 

[DIVISION]

After reading DBB's thread, kevin6's, and numerous others regarding HCG I have a question about it...

Way I see it - there are two schools of thought.....
1) (Common/Traditional) Taken during PCT to get boys back up and running...
2) Taken during the cycle to prevent the boys from atrophying at all....

I'm familiar with the first but not with the second. I'm looking for actual research that compares the two. From my foreknowledge and from looking at hundreds of cycles I find that most people prefer number 1.

If anyone has any sources of information for research with this stuff conducted in the manner I'm inquiring for, please post them. Also if you have used it BOTH ways, please enlighten me as to what way you thought was better and why.

Thanks in advance.

I'm from the school of thought that you're better off doing one round of HCG mid-cycle to retain consistency in your nuts, and then of course doing your PCT as scheduled to recover volume and frequency in your nutsack.

Dr. Weiser, Jenetic both advise that it's best this way.

I have no studies, get with Jenetic or Juve to get the studies that would confirm validity.

When it comes to PCT, HCG to my nuts only made my balls fatter.




Hope this helps, holmes.







DIV

 

[Jenetic]

If the user does not respond to drjmw's PCT protocol, the user either has a failure of the pituitary, or failure of the testes, and will more than likely require HRT indefinately.

This is far from the truth. The reason many endocrinologists have come to this conclusion is due to the fact that very few of them have the experience treating severe forms of secondary aquired hypogonadotropic hypogonadism. They are unfamilar with proper protocols which includes high dosage HCG administration and additional gonadotropin preparations such as HMG or rFSH. This complication puts the patient at risk for potential and unknown side effects in the eyes of the doctor, therefore HRT is a resonable solution since it will quickly alleviate the majority of the uncomfortable symptoms that the patient is experiencing.

There is a thread in the PCT forum which I have recently been addressing. The user did not respond to the typical dosage and schedule of 1,000 IU's 3x/wk. DrJMW is correct. 1,000 IU's is where the therapy begins but he is incorrect by saying that's where it ends. Another alternative I usually recommend for intermediate to advanced AAS users is 1,500 IU's HCG 3x/wk which is based on experience with many of my former training clients. Overall, the goal is 3,000-5000 IU's HCG per week on average. Regardless, if the user does not respond to 1,000 IU's, he will more than likely not respond to a higher degree with the additional 500 IU's included in the 1,500 IU's. The next step taken in this particular case was to change the dosage and schedule of administration. 5,000 IU's HCG every 5 days was selected. This is standard protocol. Note, HCG was not discontinued after 3 weeks and was used for an additional 3-4 weeks until the increase in testicular volume was achieved. If have the time to read the thread, you will see that he has been responding with excellent results and is on his way to recovery.

The most extreme case that I have seen was 10,000 IU's HCG 2x/wk in combination with 150 IU's HMG ED for 120 days. This person previously used AAS for several years and competed at the pro level. The treatment was a sucess and he even concieved a child approximately 7-10 months after cessation.

In most cases the PCT protocol provided by DrJMW is sufficient. One process I recommend which he doesn't necessarily agree with is to incorporate HCG during the cycle when running prolonged or heavy dosages. His reasons are valid in general. My recommendation is to use 500-1000 IU's HCG in combination with Nolvadex for 7 days consecutively mid cycle or intermitently depending on the cycle length. This solution addresses both testicular atrophy and prevention of Leydig cell desensitization associated with HCG usage. There are various factors involved during recovery but it's far from accurate to jump to a conclusion that HRT is needed if one specific recovery protocol is not successful.

Jenetic

 

[Jenetic]

I'm from the school of thought that you're better off doing one round of HCG mid-cycle to retain consistency in your nuts, and then of course doing your PCT as scheduled to recover volume and frequency in your nutsack.

Dr. Weiser, Jenetic both advise that it's best this way.

I have no studies, get with Jenetic or Juve to get the studies that would confirm validity.

From my point of view, I always recommend the appropriate PCT protocol to be utilized post cycle. Also, the previously mentioned mid/intermittent cycle protocol of 500-1,000 IUs HCG and 20 mgs Nolvadex ED for 7 days consecutively can and should be utilized when necessary during prolonged (12+/wks) or heavy dosage (1,000+mgs/wk) cycles.

There is nothing wrong with using HCG at 250-500 IUs 1-2x/wk throughout the cycle. What I don't like about that protocol is that HCG is discontinued once the cycle has completed and the only substances used during PCT are SERMs which consist of Nolvadex and/or Clomid. The reason for my hesitation is that there is no guarantee that this formula prevents testicular atrophy to the extent where the overall volume and function of the testes are in an optimal state. Also, everyone is now aware that Leydig cell desensitization does in fact occur with prolonged or high dosage HCG usage. Therefore, users which follow this protocol whom do not incorporate Nolvadex are now susceptible to Leydig cell desensitization which may render HCG usage post cycle ineffective when and if needed.

Hypothetically speaking, if testicular function and volume have been maintained during cycle with HCG, SERMs are then utilized to counteract the imbalance in the androgen:estrogen ratio encountered post cycle as the exogenous androgens diminish. This results in the prevention of estrogenic side effects while increasing pituitary LH secretion which in turn increases testosterone production.

I can see how this is beneficial during conservative cycles, especially when proper estrogen and prolactin management has been incorporated. However, this conclusion is much more difficult to achieve on heavy or prolonged cycles. Testicular volume should be maintained to an acceptable extent but that does not result in an improved recovery as severe HTPA suppression still exists which is not immediately repairable through the usage of SERMs. The same fact holds true with HCG usage during PCT but the difference is that you are now preventing and/or minimizing the “crash effect” when incorporating HCG.

Keep in mind, HCG is recommended to be used at 1,000-1,500 IUs 3x/wk and is continued with an adjustment in dosage and frequency as necessary until the increase in testicular volume and function have been achieved which is unlike the more typical, yet incorrect belief that HCG is only to be used for a short period of time. Also, this continual usage is not necessary and avoidable in most cases by utilizing the mid/intermittent protocol previously mentioned, but it is much more common with long term (1+/yr) users and/or improper recovery from previous cycles regardless of which protocol is chosen.

The typical argument here when incorporating HCG during PCT is that HCG is itself is suppressive. This is true and occurs though the constant binding of HCG which disrupts the endogenous pulsatile secretion of LH. In this case, your androgens are still elevated. The difference is that the effect is through testicular production which is also minimal compared to that of exogenous hormones. Blood work will display much higher levels of LH, FSH and testosterone in this environment which includes HCG and SERMs during PCT versus HCG during cycle and SERMs only during PCT. This ultimately results in a more comfortable as well as tolerable recovery both physically and psychologically. These results which I have presented are confirmed based upon frequent blood work results of my athletic training clients and I encourage all to do the same if there is any doubt. In conclusion, HCG should always be included during PCT in combination with SERMs regardless of what protocol has been utilized during cycle to prevent testicular atrophy, in order to achieve an optimal recovery.

Jenetic

 

[Mavy]

Damn jenetic! Right when you think you have something figured out. So how does your PCT protocol differ from drjmws? You believe in HCG both during cycle AND in PCT? Where drjmw only reccommends it during PCT? BTW, that HRT statement was what I was told by drjmw, I was just passing it along. I believe that he thought, if his PCT protocal failed more than a few times, that there was a "chance" the patient may require HRT. Obviously it seems there are other methods that can be tried. Epsecially after reading your long shut down thread from what I remember.

So you think that it is a mistake to run HCG during, but after a cycle? Because of the effect is will have on of LH, FSH and T levels. Which is also the reason why nolva is a must as T levels start to go back up to their normal range? Good info bro. I was hoping you would post on this. I still feel somewhat confused, I think that I am just looking for the 1 proven during/PCT formula that is LAW, lol. not the case I guess with all the different cycle people use. HCG does seem like something that can cause more harm than good if used incorrrectly.

Mavy

 

[ATLmuscles]

...My recommendation is to use 500-1000 IU's HCG in combination with Nolvadex for 7 days consecutively mid cycle or intermitently depending on the cycle length. This solution addresses both testicular atrophy and prevention of Leydig cell desensitization associated with HCG usage. There are various factors involved during recovery but it's far from accurate to jump to a conclusion that HRT is needed if one specific recovery protocol is not successful.

Jenetic

Jenetic,

DO you mean 500-1000 iu per day for seven days during cycle?