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Fructose, Dairy and SUgar substitutes.....
- Thread starter JKurz1
- Start date
Fats, while dieting keep my muscles looking full instead of flat. This aids in keeping down my "Tlak Time" at the gym when veins are bulging out of you delts lats and bald head poeple seem more hesitant to talk to you. I call it the "I'll rape you mom and kill you puppy factor". But to each his own.
savage1026
New member
Fructose: I try to stay away at all costs when cutting, as it restores liver glycogen rather than glycogen found in muscles. For general health, fruit is good, but for bodybuilding, not so much.
Dairy: Most dairy products will illicit an insulin spike that i don't necessarily want on a cut, but not such a big deal to me when bulking. I always keep the good ole cottage cheese in the lineup though...
Sugar substitutes: If it's found that Splenda is some type of carcinogen, i'm royally fucked. However, the sucralose in splenda appears to be the safest one out there.
Dairy: Most dairy products will illicit an insulin spike that i don't necessarily want on a cut, but not such a big deal to me when bulking. I always keep the good ole cottage cheese in the lineup though...
Sugar substitutes: If it's found that Splenda is some type of carcinogen, i'm royally fucked. However, the sucralose in splenda appears to be the safest one out there.
savage1026 said:
All very good advice. Simple sugars are a killer and you must read the label on everything you eat.
Real yogart seems OK.
Agree on Splenda .... millions will have problems.
Tux
Well-known member
I use dairy year-round, but when cutting, I use only 3-4cups per day of the Atkins milk, which has only 3g lactose per cup instead of 12, so my sugars stay low. Off-season, lots of skim milk. Splenda, a good bit while dieting, very little off-season. Fructose, only from soda when bulking or on a cheat day lol, otherwise pretty much never.
Tux
Well-known member
Well bro he's right. Carbs keep your muscles full, NOT fat. Carbs, and the water stored along with them, fat is not doing it. Plus, in a recent post you mentioned something about being on only 10g's of fat a day, which, not only is almost impossible given your diet and amount of red meat, but is also far too low to account for muscle fullness even IF fat could account for it. And as we've already learned, or should have known already, it's carbs that keep muscles full, not fats. Otherwise, wouldn't bber's fat-load instead of carb-load before a contest? Sorry bro, but for the most part, your whole post is wacked out and makes little sense. Must be a low-carb day huh?
Makavelli
New member
JKurz1 said:
Fructose should be avoided at all costs due to the fact that as stated above it can only go two places. 1) converted to liver glycogen, or 2) converted to triglycerides...fat!. The conversion to liver glycogen is an enzyme driven process and you're limited to about 50 grams a day. I avoid it during bulking also since it contributes to getting fatter.
I avoid milk during diets and bulking. I'd rather eat my calories.
I use splenda, equal, and the rest of them. Who knows on that? It doesn't have any cals so I'll use it until I find out I'm going to die from it.
M
Mr.X
Guest
JKurz1 said:
All 3 should be eliminated:
Fructose - fills up your liver first and is 4x more likely to be stored as fat then regular glucose (positive=helps T4->T3 conversion and lepit levels)
Dairy - speaks for itself, stay away from the sugars; plus, most people are allergic to dairy
Sugars - again, common sense, they are out
Sugar Substitutes - Splenda is fine to use, it's made from sugar by chlorinating sucrose.
Mr.X
Whatever thats just what my trainer and a few others told me. Why do bodybuilders take in fats on contest day to fill out more then. Also why did Kingwhinny say if he looks flat he'll eat a steak. I was referring to red meat since thats the only fat I take in, and yes it was me that was only getting like 10g's a day and since the red meats hit me i look double the muscularity size imo.
sprinter86
New member
Mr.X said:
It doesnt matter how they make it. It is still a Chlorocarbon and in the same family as other Carcinogenic chlorocarbons which makes me think it could have potenial risks (although nothing proven yet). Note that DDT is extremely dangerous and is also a chlorocarbon.
JKurz1
Banned
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showthread.php?t=102126
A good liver glycogen level is anabolic and promotes growth since the body is less likely to believe it is starving to death.
AND, my dairy is dry curd cottage cheese.............05g of fat, 1 sugar and 20g of protein/serving...........still off limits?
A good liver glycogen level is anabolic and promotes growth since the body is less likely to believe it is starving to death.
AND, my dairy is dry curd cottage cheese.............05g of fat, 1 sugar and 20g of protein/serving...........still off limits?
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Mr.X
Guest
sprinter86 said:
the word Chlorocarbon doesn't spell any risk, I don't see how you deduct the ludicrous believe that it's carcinogenic.
"It's been approved by the FDA after a 20-year study that found the sweet alternative safe for everyone including pregnant women and diabetics." - AMA
there have been over 1000 studies on it's safety, so spreading nonsense rumors about the product is false and unprovoked
Mr.X
JKurz1
Banned
from another board:
avoiding fruit is a bad idea because:
1) fruits are calorically sparse & nutritionally dense. not mentally dense like folks who tell others to avoid them.
2) fruits are an effective default fiber & water source. you will shit better & function better.
3) fruits have small amounts of fructose per serving (4-7g). this is perfect for preserving liver glycogen & indirectly, skeletal muscle glycogen status. muscle glycogen is better replenished when small amounts of fructose are present in the postW mix.
4) a liver lacking glyco-replenishment = multiple catabolic signalling cascades = compromised gains in skeletal muscle. fructose facilitates "fed state" signals to the brain. too complex to get into right now, but this is a good thing.
5) fruits contain system & recovery-enhancing phytonutrients & antioxidant factors not present in any other food species.
6) there is not a solitary shred of science indicating ill effects on health, body composition, or physical performance as a result of eating fruit. some of the leanest, longest-living populations on the planet earth eat fruit daily.
7) it would take the consumption of a truck bed of fruits to ingest amounts of fructose associated with negative metabolic effects seen in forcefed rats. the funny thing about this is, fruit is one of the rare foods in nature that you can actually fill yourself up with, & still not tip the balance of risk versus benefit.
8) fruit avoidance just plain makes no damn sense whatsoever -- but then again, how many idiotic bodybuilding myths do you know of that do?
avoiding fruit is a bad idea because:
1) fruits are calorically sparse & nutritionally dense. not mentally dense like folks who tell others to avoid them.
2) fruits are an effective default fiber & water source. you will shit better & function better.
3) fruits have small amounts of fructose per serving (4-7g). this is perfect for preserving liver glycogen & indirectly, skeletal muscle glycogen status. muscle glycogen is better replenished when small amounts of fructose are present in the postW mix.
4) a liver lacking glyco-replenishment = multiple catabolic signalling cascades = compromised gains in skeletal muscle. fructose facilitates "fed state" signals to the brain. too complex to get into right now, but this is a good thing.
5) fruits contain system & recovery-enhancing phytonutrients & antioxidant factors not present in any other food species.
6) there is not a solitary shred of science indicating ill effects on health, body composition, or physical performance as a result of eating fruit. some of the leanest, longest-living populations on the planet earth eat fruit daily.
7) it would take the consumption of a truck bed of fruits to ingest amounts of fructose associated with negative metabolic effects seen in forcefed rats. the funny thing about this is, fruit is one of the rare foods in nature that you can actually fill yourself up with, & still not tip the balance of risk versus benefit.
8) fruit avoidance just plain makes no damn sense whatsoever -- but then again, how many idiotic bodybuilding myths do you know of that do?
M
Mr.X
Guest
1) fruits are calorically sparse & nutritionally dense. not mentally dense like folks who tell others to avoid them.
that's not true at all - 1 apple has 125 calories (large) and 32 grams of carbs from fructose
2) fruits are an effective default fiber & water source. you will shit better & function better.
true to a small degree, you can get natural fiber from husk without all the empty calories
3) fruits have small amounts of fructose per serving (4-7g). this is perfect for preserving liver glycogen & indirectly, skeletal muscle glycogen status. muscle glycogen is better replenished when small amounts of fructose are present in the postW mix.
yes, 1 strawberry, eat 10 of them and it adds up. Fructose does NOT "preserve" liver glycogen, for it actually is STORED as liver glycogen. Whoever wrote this has NO CLUE of the difference between a fed-state and a ketogenic state. In a fed state, which most people are in, fructose will not help you it will only hinder your progress.
4) a liver lacking glyco-replenishment = multiple catabolic signalling cascades = compromised gains in skeletal muscle. fructose facilitates "fed state" signals to the brain. too complex to get into right now, but this is a good thing.
yes it's too complex because it's stated WRONG. The liver needs liver glycogen to help T4->T3 conversion and leptin (hormone that tells you that you're full) levels; however, it only needs 50 grams of glucose to do the job - while only holding 150grams total. As fructose is 4x more likely to be store as fat and in the liver, you will see great fat gains by stuffing your face with fruit
5) fruits contain system & recovery-enhancing phytonutrients & antioxidant factors not present in any other food species.
that's idiotic; vitamin C and iron are what's most commonly contributed to fruits ability to help you recover - can be purchased for $4.99 at a local supermarket. Even then, 10 grams of glutamine will do 10x more for recovery then Vit C.
6) there is not a solitary shred of science indicating ill effects on health, body composition, or physical performance as a result of eating fruit. some of the leanest, longest-living populations on the planet earth eat fruit daily.
and? no one said it has a "bad" effect, what is being said is that for a bodybuilder to eat calories that are empty and cause 4x greater possible of fat gain is ludicrous
7) it would take the consumption of a truck bed of fruits to ingest amounts of fructose associated with negative metabolic effects seen in forcefed rats. the funny thing about this is, fruit is one of the rare foods in nature that you can actually fill yourself up with, & still not tip the balance of risk versus benefit.
eat 10 apples a day, 1200 calories from fruit, 320 grams of carbs (fructose) with your regular diet and talk to me in 4 weeks when you're 10 lbs. fatter
8) fruit avoidance just plain makes no damn sense whatsoever -- but then again, how many idiotic bodybuilding myths do you know of that do?
yes, this guy is a true genius in his own mind
No one said fruit will kill you; what's being said is it does not have nutritional benefit when used in conjunction to a low-GI/high-protein/moderate fat/high-nutrition (supplementation) bodybuilder/fitness diet. That's the topic at hand. Why eat something that will make you gain bodyfat at a higher rate then other carbs in your diet. There is absolutely to evidence that one cannot live without fruit. In fact, I know many people that do it all the time - i.e. me as an example. Stuff your face with fruits and you'll see the real "gain" you will have from it.
Think of it this way, why are people screaming that High-fructose corn syrup is the major cause of US obesity - read the name of the product and that's all you need.
Mr.X
that's not true at all - 1 apple has 125 calories (large) and 32 grams of carbs from fructose
2) fruits are an effective default fiber & water source. you will shit better & function better.
true to a small degree, you can get natural fiber from husk without all the empty calories
3) fruits have small amounts of fructose per serving (4-7g). this is perfect for preserving liver glycogen & indirectly, skeletal muscle glycogen status. muscle glycogen is better replenished when small amounts of fructose are present in the postW mix.
yes, 1 strawberry, eat 10 of them and it adds up. Fructose does NOT "preserve" liver glycogen, for it actually is STORED as liver glycogen. Whoever wrote this has NO CLUE of the difference between a fed-state and a ketogenic state. In a fed state, which most people are in, fructose will not help you it will only hinder your progress.
4) a liver lacking glyco-replenishment = multiple catabolic signalling cascades = compromised gains in skeletal muscle. fructose facilitates "fed state" signals to the brain. too complex to get into right now, but this is a good thing.
yes it's too complex because it's stated WRONG. The liver needs liver glycogen to help T4->T3 conversion and leptin (hormone that tells you that you're full) levels; however, it only needs 50 grams of glucose to do the job - while only holding 150grams total. As fructose is 4x more likely to be store as fat and in the liver, you will see great fat gains by stuffing your face with fruit
5) fruits contain system & recovery-enhancing phytonutrients & antioxidant factors not present in any other food species.
that's idiotic; vitamin C and iron are what's most commonly contributed to fruits ability to help you recover - can be purchased for $4.99 at a local supermarket. Even then, 10 grams of glutamine will do 10x more for recovery then Vit C.
6) there is not a solitary shred of science indicating ill effects on health, body composition, or physical performance as a result of eating fruit. some of the leanest, longest-living populations on the planet earth eat fruit daily.
and? no one said it has a "bad" effect, what is being said is that for a bodybuilder to eat calories that are empty and cause 4x greater possible of fat gain is ludicrous
7) it would take the consumption of a truck bed of fruits to ingest amounts of fructose associated with negative metabolic effects seen in forcefed rats. the funny thing about this is, fruit is one of the rare foods in nature that you can actually fill yourself up with, & still not tip the balance of risk versus benefit.
eat 10 apples a day, 1200 calories from fruit, 320 grams of carbs (fructose) with your regular diet and talk to me in 4 weeks when you're 10 lbs. fatter
8) fruit avoidance just plain makes no damn sense whatsoever -- but then again, how many idiotic bodybuilding myths do you know of that do?
yes, this guy is a true genius in his own mind
No one said fruit will kill you; what's being said is it does not have nutritional benefit when used in conjunction to a low-GI/high-protein/moderate fat/high-nutrition (supplementation) bodybuilder/fitness diet. That's the topic at hand. Why eat something that will make you gain bodyfat at a higher rate then other carbs in your diet. There is absolutely to evidence that one cannot live without fruit. In fact, I know many people that do it all the time - i.e. me as an example. Stuff your face with fruits and you'll see the real "gain" you will have from it.
Think of it this way, why are people screaming that High-fructose corn syrup is the major cause of US obesity - read the name of the product and that's all you need.
Mr.X
Mr.X said:
Ok so what are you saying then? That ALL fruits should be avoided at all costs at all times? Regardless wether cutting or bulking? Because I do consume a small apple a day. And usually at around 6pm. So is what I'm doing wrong???
M
Mr.X
Guest
Carth said:
I think saying that avoiding fruit no matter what would make the "fruit gurus" mad, but I'll go as far as saying: yes, they are unwanted calories. Instead of the apple, drink a protein shake with some healthy UDOs choice oil - from what I remember you're cutting. 30 grams protein = 120 calories, 1 tbsp. UDOs 130 cal = total calories 250, but you got a great night time slow-release protein in your system.
Mr.X
Mr.X said:
But I do take protein shake like what you said. And I take it before going to sleep. But fruits? Poor little ol' fruits. Never again???? But...but....what will I eat? I like to eat at least an apple once a day. So...no more apples?????
Joe Stenson
New member
JKurz1 said:
You're like 7-8% year round, aren't you? Shouldn't that tell you something?
I hate to say it, but Mr. X is being way too anal. Can I think of other foods that may provide more of a benefit than a piece of fruit? Perhaps. Is consuming fruit in your diet regularly going to make it impossible for you to get really lean? Of course not.
I don't eat much fruit because I can think of things just as good for me that taste a lot better...I don't care for the taste of most fruits, never have. Does that mean I'd be shooting myself in the foot if I decided to start incorporating fruit into my diet? Of course not. Use some common sense people.
U
UA_Iron
Guest
Joe Stenson said:
he didnt say it was impossible to do with fruits etc. But there's an optimization factor - its easier with out them.
*puts down the carne asada burrito*
BTW...I know what replenish muscle glycogen means and what it does.
But what is to replenish liver glycogen??? What does this mean? What does it do?
But what is to replenish liver glycogen??? What does this mean? What does it do?
Joe Stenson
New member
UA_Iron said:
It really depends where you're drawing the line. To me, it sounds like he's saying don't eat fruit at all. It's not like I'm recommending 10 bananas/day or something, but if someone wants a banana he really shouldn't be sweating it. Like I said, I don't eat it anyway so it's moot to me, but I think people tend to overanalyze diet.
When you're trying to get into contest shape, maybe you need to try some of the "bodybuilding nutrition tricks" to get there, but for your average gym rat it's really just all cals in vs. cals out.
Joe Stenson said:
You have a good point there. K!
mongogerry1
New member
Mr.X said:
I am very new to this but this is very informative for me. I love posts like this where people hash it out. My question is what about first thing in the morning when liver glycogen is low. I regularly have a piece of fruit, usually a banana, and 30 gram shake as soon as i open my eyes? I was under the impression that if i did not restore these levels that they would be pulled from muscle proteins? Should i still restore these levels but with glucose?
M
Mr.X
Guest
I hate to say it, but Mr. X is being way too anal. Can I think of other foods that may provide more of a benefit than a piece of fruit? Perhaps. Is consuming fruit in your diet regularly going to make it impossible for you to get really lean? Of course not.
you didn't read my post, go read it again - I said that fruit consumption is not needed (didn't say it will make you die or make you 500lbs. either) - will constant daily fruit consumption hinder fat loss: yes it will. 5 larges apples a day can translate to 600 calories, almost 150 grams of fructose. 1 small apple a day: sure, but why waste the calories on an empty product that full of fructose when you can put those calories to better use. No one is being anal, I am being logical
I don't eat much fruit because I can think of things just as good for me that taste a lot better...I don't care for the taste of most fruits, never have. Does that mean I'd be shooting myself in the foot if I decided to start incorporating fruit into my diet? Of course not. Use some common sense people.
who knows? I don't know your diet, put a fruit into a Ketogenic diet and you will be shooting yourself in the foot. The point is that there are other places in the diet regiment that can be filled with the calories you would waste on fruit. Think higher quality proteins, low-GI carbs and healthy oils
Mr.X
you didn't read my post, go read it again - I said that fruit consumption is not needed (didn't say it will make you die or make you 500lbs. either) - will constant daily fruit consumption hinder fat loss: yes it will. 5 larges apples a day can translate to 600 calories, almost 150 grams of fructose. 1 small apple a day: sure, but why waste the calories on an empty product that full of fructose when you can put those calories to better use. No one is being anal, I am being logical
I don't eat much fruit because I can think of things just as good for me that taste a lot better...I don't care for the taste of most fruits, never have. Does that mean I'd be shooting myself in the foot if I decided to start incorporating fruit into my diet? Of course not. Use some common sense people.
who knows? I don't know your diet, put a fruit into a Ketogenic diet and you will be shooting yourself in the foot. The point is that there are other places in the diet regiment that can be filled with the calories you would waste on fruit. Think higher quality proteins, low-GI carbs and healthy oils
Mr.X
M
Mr.X
Guest
UA_Iron said:he didnt say it was impossible to do with fruits etc. But there's an optimization factor - its easier with out them.
*puts down the carne asada burrito*
right, we use logic and dietary optimization for maximum results. Sure, one can try calories in vs. calories out, but does 2000 calories of brown sugar = 2000 calories of lean chicken breast - what's the difference on your body? see what I mean.
Mr.X
M
Mr.X
Guest
Carth said:
helps T4->T3 conversion as well as leptin levels - refer to my other post for definition of leptin
M
Mr.X
Guest
It really depends where you're drawing the line. To me, it sounds like he's saying don't eat fruit at all. It's not like I'm recommending 10 bananas/day or something, but if someone wants a banana he really shouldn't be sweating it. Like I said, I don't eat it anyway so it's moot to me, but I think people tend to overanalyze diet.
right, people that WANT OPTIMIZED results overanalyze their diet, for 70% of what you look like is your diet. Yes, I am saying fruits are WASTED calories. I don't think anyone in their right mind would recommend such a high fruit intake, and no one implied that you did, but recommending daily fruit intake to a bodybuilder that's trying to lean out is idiotic. In addition, fruits are empty calories loaded with fructose, why not use that caloric intake for a more optimized food? (lean protein/oatmeal/flax) that's what a REAL diet is, optimization of micro and macro nutrients. People want results and people want them fast, to get proper results your diet needs to be dialed in, part of dialing in is cutting out unnecessary caloric intake and what we call in the dieting world "empty calories" - i.e. fruits as an example
When you're trying to get into contest shape, maybe you need to try some of the "bodybuilding nutrition tricks" to get there, but for your average gym rat it's really just all cals in vs. cals out.
I think for bulking and cutting (either of which our members are usually into) empty calories will just create less results - especially for cutting. Yes, in a cutting regiment fruits should not be eaten, but in a bulking regiments fruits should not play any major role either. Will eating 1 banana per day kill you? NO. Will it be wasted calories? yes. You want optimal gains or fat-loss, concentrate on a high-protein/low-gi carb (mod)/healthy (mod) fat diet. Either way, there are much better sources of carbohydrates out there that can be utilized by a bodybuilder - think oatmeal.
As a note, the average joe in the gym looks like shit, so we are not talking about average gym joes here. We are talking about bodybuilding and fitness lifestyles that are based on hard work, optimization and smarts
Mr.X
right, people that WANT OPTIMIZED results overanalyze their diet, for 70% of what you look like is your diet. Yes, I am saying fruits are WASTED calories. I don't think anyone in their right mind would recommend such a high fruit intake, and no one implied that you did, but recommending daily fruit intake to a bodybuilder that's trying to lean out is idiotic. In addition, fruits are empty calories loaded with fructose, why not use that caloric intake for a more optimized food? (lean protein/oatmeal/flax) that's what a REAL diet is, optimization of micro and macro nutrients. People want results and people want them fast, to get proper results your diet needs to be dialed in, part of dialing in is cutting out unnecessary caloric intake and what we call in the dieting world "empty calories" - i.e. fruits as an example
When you're trying to get into contest shape, maybe you need to try some of the "bodybuilding nutrition tricks" to get there, but for your average gym rat it's really just all cals in vs. cals out.
I think for bulking and cutting (either of which our members are usually into) empty calories will just create less results - especially for cutting. Yes, in a cutting regiment fruits should not be eaten, but in a bulking regiments fruits should not play any major role either. Will eating 1 banana per day kill you? NO. Will it be wasted calories? yes. You want optimal gains or fat-loss, concentrate on a high-protein/low-gi carb (mod)/healthy (mod) fat diet. Either way, there are much better sources of carbohydrates out there that can be utilized by a bodybuilder - think oatmeal.
As a note, the average joe in the gym looks like shit, so we are not talking about average gym joes here. We are talking about bodybuilding and fitness lifestyles that are based on hard work, optimization and smarts
Mr.X
M
Mr.X
Guest
mongogerry1 said:
liver glycogen can be replenished with glucose; thus, eating oatmeal or yams can accomplish about the same results. Granted not as fast, but most dieters would benefit from a semi-ketogenic state, so by eliminating your fructose intake you will be in ketosis post training/cardio. If you're dieting, stick to the 50%protein/20%carbs/30% fat ratio, weight x 12 = BMR. You can shave 5% off BMR to get the fat-loss started but don't go below -10% BMR if you are new to dieting.
Mr.X
M
Mr.X
Guest
J Clin Endocrinol Metab. 2004 Jun;89(6):2963-72.
b]Dietary fructose reduces circulating insulin and leptin, attenuates postprandial suppression of ghrelin, and increases triglycerides in women.[/b]
Teff KL, Elliott SS, Tschop M, Kieffer TJ, Rader D, Heiman M, Townsend RR, Keim NL, D'Alessio D, Havel PJ.
Monell Chemical Senses Center, University of Pennsylvania, Philadelphia 19104, USA.
Previous studies indicate that leptin secretion is regulated by insulin-mediated glucose metabolism. Because fructose, unlike glucose, does not stimulate insulin secretion, we hypothesized that meals high in fructose would result in lower leptin concentrations than meals containing the same amount of glucose. Blood samples were collected every 30-60 min for 24 h from 12 normal-weight women on 2 randomized days during which the subjects consumed three meals containing 55, 30, and 15% of total kilocalories as carbohydrate, fat, and protein, respectively, with 30% of kilocalories as either a fructose-sweetened [high fructose (HFr)] or glucose-sweetened [high glucose (HGl)] beverage. Meals were isocaloric in the two treatments. Postprandial glycemic excursions were reduced by 66 +/- 12%, and insulin responses were 65 +/- 5% lower (both P < 0.001) during HFr consumption. The area under the curve for leptin during the first 12 h (-33 +/- 7%; P < 0.005), the entire 24 h (-21 +/- 8%; P < 0.02), and the diurnal amplitude (peak - nadir) (24 +/- 6%; P < 0.0025) were reduced on the HFr day compared with the HGl day. In addition, circulating levels of the orexigenic gastroenteric hormone, ghrelin, were suppressed by approximately 30% 1-2 h after ingestion of each HGl meal (P < 0.01), but postprandial suppression of ghrelin was significantly less pronounced after HFr meals (P < 0.05 vs. HGl). Consumption of HFr meals produced a rapid and prolonged elevation of plasma triglycerides compared with the HGl day (P < 0.005). Because insulin and leptin, and possibly ghrelin, function as key signals to the central nervous system in the long-term regulation of energy balance, decreases of circulating insulin and leptin and increased ghrelin concentrations, as demonstrated in this study, could lead to increased caloric intake and ultimately contribute to weight gain and obesity during chronic consumption of diets high in fructose.
b]Dietary fructose reduces circulating insulin and leptin, attenuates postprandial suppression of ghrelin, and increases triglycerides in women.[/b]
Teff KL, Elliott SS, Tschop M, Kieffer TJ, Rader D, Heiman M, Townsend RR, Keim NL, D'Alessio D, Havel PJ.
Monell Chemical Senses Center, University of Pennsylvania, Philadelphia 19104, USA.
Previous studies indicate that leptin secretion is regulated by insulin-mediated glucose metabolism. Because fructose, unlike glucose, does not stimulate insulin secretion, we hypothesized that meals high in fructose would result in lower leptin concentrations than meals containing the same amount of glucose. Blood samples were collected every 30-60 min for 24 h from 12 normal-weight women on 2 randomized days during which the subjects consumed three meals containing 55, 30, and 15% of total kilocalories as carbohydrate, fat, and protein, respectively, with 30% of kilocalories as either a fructose-sweetened [high fructose (HFr)] or glucose-sweetened [high glucose (HGl)] beverage. Meals were isocaloric in the two treatments. Postprandial glycemic excursions were reduced by 66 +/- 12%, and insulin responses were 65 +/- 5% lower (both P < 0.001) during HFr consumption. The area under the curve for leptin during the first 12 h (-33 +/- 7%; P < 0.005), the entire 24 h (-21 +/- 8%; P < 0.02), and the diurnal amplitude (peak - nadir) (24 +/- 6%; P < 0.0025) were reduced on the HFr day compared with the HGl day. In addition, circulating levels of the orexigenic gastroenteric hormone, ghrelin, were suppressed by approximately 30% 1-2 h after ingestion of each HGl meal (P < 0.01), but postprandial suppression of ghrelin was significantly less pronounced after HFr meals (P < 0.05 vs. HGl). Consumption of HFr meals produced a rapid and prolonged elevation of plasma triglycerides compared with the HGl day (P < 0.005). Because insulin and leptin, and possibly ghrelin, function as key signals to the central nervous system in the long-term regulation of energy balance, decreases of circulating insulin and leptin and increased ghrelin concentrations, as demonstrated in this study, could lead to increased caloric intake and ultimately contribute to weight gain and obesity during chronic consumption of diets high in fructose.
Joe Stenson
New member
Mr.X said:
I understand the point of your example, but let's consider something less extreme. Still dealing with a 2000 calorie diet, given adequate protein (let's say 1-1.5g per lb bodyweight) and enough EFAs, what's the difference (besides bigger swings in energy and satiety issues) between getting the rest of your calories from something like brown sugar vs. oats?
The only benefit to eating the oats is what I touched on. They will do a better job of controlling appetite, which is one of the major factors one must consider when planning a diet. And they will also provide more stable energy levels throughout the day. Other than that, not much difference.
Mr.X said:
You and I clearly have different ideas of what constitutes "optimal" dieting, and that's fine. There's many ways to skin a cat.
The fact that you're even discussion ratios at all means we're really nowhere near the same page (at least I'm not getting that impression). I'm more of a carb/calorie cycling type of guy (think UD2, PSMF, Twin Peak's carb cycling, etc.)
M
Mr.X
Guest
I understand the point of your example, but let's consider something less extreme. Still dealing with a 2000 calorie diet, given adequate protein (let's say 1-1.5g per lb bodyweight) and enough EFAs, what's the difference (besides bigger swings in energy and satiety issues) between getting the rest of your calories from something like brown sugar vs. oats?
The only benefit to eating the oats is what I touched on. They will do a better job of controlling appetite, which is one of the major factors one must consider when planning a diet. And they will also provide more stable energy levels throughout the day. Other than that, not much difference.
if you think there is no difference between eating oats and brown sugar then I have nothing to say to you - I don't think this is worth the conversation if you can't understand with common sense the difference
also, I meant to say table sugar
You and I clearly have different ideas of what constitutes "optimal" dieting, and that's fine. There's many ways to skin a cat.
sure, whatever you say
The fact that you're even discussion ratios at all means we're really nowhere near the same page (at least I'm not getting that impression). I'm more of a carb/calorie cycling type of guy (think UD2, PSMF, Twin Peak's carb cycling, etc.)
you can cycle calories and carbs, hell I wrote the manual on it...but in the end of the day, wasted caloric intake is just that, wasted.
We are not on the same page for one reason: I have worked with 100s of clients in the past and I speak not only with a scientific basis but also with hands on experience with a variety of people.
Mr.X
The only benefit to eating the oats is what I touched on. They will do a better job of controlling appetite, which is one of the major factors one must consider when planning a diet. And they will also provide more stable energy levels throughout the day. Other than that, not much difference.
if you think there is no difference between eating oats and brown sugar then I have nothing to say to you - I don't think this is worth the conversation if you can't understand with common sense the difference
also, I meant to say table sugar
You and I clearly have different ideas of what constitutes "optimal" dieting, and that's fine. There's many ways to skin a cat.
sure, whatever you say
The fact that you're even discussion ratios at all means we're really nowhere near the same page (at least I'm not getting that impression). I'm more of a carb/calorie cycling type of guy (think UD2, PSMF, Twin Peak's carb cycling, etc.)
you can cycle calories and carbs, hell I wrote the manual on it...but in the end of the day, wasted caloric intake is just that, wasted.
We are not on the same page for one reason: I have worked with 100s of clients in the past and I speak not only with a scientific basis but also with hands on experience with a variety of people.
Mr.X
Lets out this spin on it, say we are dealing with a person that has a super high metabolism. He wants to stay away from the crappy fast foods and concentrate on a generally healthy diet. It is very hard for him to gain. He try's to eat the major body building basics but is getting know where but really full in a hurry. Shouldnt this person choose fruit over say ice cream and sugar snacks, or is it just as bad. Some people like Jkurtz have a advanced metabolism. I agree with the completely wasted calorie factor, which is basically why I dont drink, but I also have the matabolism of Don Vito. I am not by any means trying to contradict here, but for these hard gainers cant fruit be used as a decent source of surplus cals that dont fill your stomach like oats and brown rice does, hence being part of a body building diet? Im sure many pro's have fruit. I know Cutler does when he is cutting even. Yes, we can debate over the drug doses and thats why they can eat it. Well there are plenty here on advanced drug doses as well. I absolutly understand what your saying, EMPTY WORTHLESS CALS. Thats the point he is trying to make here people if you have trouble gaining I certainally wouldnt go home and throw all my fruits out of the fridge but if weight loss is your goal, get rid of it!
JKurz1
Banned
Mr.X said:
Mr.X - Chill the fuck out. Who ever said they were eating a bushels of aples a day???????? Christ. You've always slammed fruits and for the wrong reasons. The postive effects and nutrients loaded in apples, bananas and berries far outweigh any potential negatives IMHO. I'm talking an apple, a few berries, maybe a banana.......
Carth - you and I are both sub 10%......AND WE EAT FRUITS DAILY. MrX is, well, no one really knows.
JKurz1 said:
Bottom line is that Monday - Friday my diet is strict. I consume only low GI carbs like oatmeal, yams, brown rice, rice cakes etc etc. And I do consume my EFAs all day long. Hemp oil, flax, almonds.
As for veggies. I really don't care much for them. I don't like the way they taste, they fill me up way too much and I also get gas from them.
But fruits. I do not eat any fruits at all. I only eat an apple whenever I feel like I truly need a quick energy source. If I feel like I am too weak or not thinking right. Then I will go for a small Gala Apple. It only has 25grams of carbs and has 125grams of potassium.
But weekends! Weekends is another story. Life is to live and enjoy. Come the weekends...I eat whatever the fuck I want! But I do NOT go all out crazy neither! Know what I mean?
JKurz1
Banned
Carth said:
Now, would you eat like this off cycle? Do you thinking being on allows you to eat more w/o worrying about excess cals being stored? Or do you feel that it doesnt have any effect?
ME? I eat Strict M-Snday, but I am thinking I need to chill.............I have probably 15 berries in my cottage cheese every day in my first meal, I DO NOT believe this will hoard body fat...........the anti-oxidants are key plus they taste damn good.
Hell, I use to SLAM bananas post workout....2 min....and I was never fat...........strong, never fat.....
JKurz1
Banned
Blueberries: A god among fruits
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I love this time of year - it's when the best fresh blueberries are available (their season is May-October). I thought I would make a thread in their honour, with all the benefits they offer, because they have so many they really shouldn't be overlooked in a healthy diet. Plus they taste amazing.
Blueberries are the fruits of a shrub that belong to the heath family, which includes the cranberry and bilberry. Blueberries grow in clusters and range in size from that of a small pea to a marble. They are deep in color, ranging from blue to maroon to purple-black, and feature a white-gray waxy "bloom" that covers the surface serving as a protective coat. The skin surrounds a semi-transparent flesh that encases tiny seeds.
They are excellent for inclusion into our diets because they are quite low in calories compared to the benefits they offer us, such as antioxidants, vitamins, minerals and fiber.
An Antioxidant Powerhouse
Packed with antioxidant phytonutrients called anthocyanidins, blueberries neutralize free radical damage to the collagen matrix of cells and tissues that can lead to cataracts, glaucoma, varicose veins, hemorrhoids, peptic ulcers, heart disease and cancer. Anthocyanins, the blue-red pigments found in blueberries, improve the integrity of support structures in the veins and entire vascular system. Anthocyanins have been shown to enhance the effects of vitamin C, improve capillary integrity, and stabilize the collagen matrix (the ground substance of all body tissues). They work their protective magic by preventing free-radical damage, inhibiting enzymes from cleaving the collagen matrix, and directly cross-linking with collagen fibers to form a more stable collagen matrix.
Cardioprotective Action
While wine, particularly red wine, is touted as cardioprotective since it is a good source of antioxidant anthocyanins, a recent study found that blueberries deliver 38% more of these free radical fighters. In this study, published in the August 2003 issue of the Journal of Agriculture and Food Chemistry, researchers found that a moderate drink (about 4 ounces) of white wine contained .47 mmol of free radical absorbing antioxidants, red wine provided 2.04 mmol, and a wine made from highbush blueberries delivered 2.42 mmol of these protective plant compounds.(October 1, 2003)
Cholesterol-lowering Pterostilbene
Pterostilbene (pronounced TARE-oh-STILL-bean), a powerful antioxidant compound found in blueberries, which is already known to fight cancer, may also help lower cholesterol.
In a study using rat liver cells, scientists at the USDA Agricultural Research Service compared the cholesterol-lowering effects of pterostilbene to those of ciprofibrate, a lipid-lowering drug, and resveratrol, an antioxidant found in grapes with a chemical structure similar to pterostilbene that has been shown to help fight cancer and heart disease.
They based their comparison on each compound's ability to activate PPAR-alpha (short for peroxisome proliferator-activated receptor alpha). The PPARs are a family of receptors on cells all throughout the body that are involved in the absorption of compounds into cells for use in energy production. PPAR-alpha is crucial for the metabolism of lipids, including cholesterol. Pterostilbene was as effective as ciprofibrate and outperformed resveratrol in activating PPAR-alpha. The take away message: turn up your cholesterol burning machinery by eating more blueberries, grapes and and cranberries. (January 14, 2005)
A Visionary Fruit
Extracts of bilberry (a variety of blueberry) have been shown in numerous studies to improve nighttime visual acuity and promote quicker adjustment to darkness and faster restoration of visual acuity after exposure to glare. This research was conducted to evaluate claims of bilberry's beneficial effects on night vision made by British Air Force pilots during World War II who regularly consumed bilberry preserves before their night missions.
Protection against Macular Degeneration
Your mother may have told you carrots would keep your eyes bright as a child, but as an adult, it looks like fruit is even more important for keeping your sight. Data reported in a study published in the June 2004 issue of the Archives of Opthamology indicates that eating 3 or more servings of fruit per day may lower your risk of age-related macular degeneration (ARMD), the primary cause of vision loss in older adults, by 36%, compared to persons who consume less than 1.5 servings of fruit daily.
In this study, which involved 77,562 women and 40,866 men, researchers evaluated the effect of study participants' consumption of fruits; vegetables; the antioxidant vitamins A, C, and E; and carotenoids on the development of early ARMD or neovascular ARM, a more severe form of the illness associated with vision loss. Food intake information was collected periodically for up to 18 years for women and 12 years for men.
A Better Brain with Blueberries
In animal studies, researchers have found that blueberries help protect the brain from oxidative stress and may reduce the effects of age-related conditions such as Alzheimer’s disease or dementia. Researchers found that diets rich in blueberries significantly improved both the learning capacity and motor skills of aging rats, making them mentally equivalent to much younger rats.
Protect the Brain from Damage After a Stroke
Eating plenty of blueberries may significantly lessen brain damage from strokes and other neurological disorders, suggests a study published in the May 2005 issue of the Journal of Experimental Neurology.
Neuroscientists at the University of South Florida College of Medicine, James A. Haley Veterans' Hospital and the National Institute on Drug Abuse found that rats fed diets enriched with blueberries, spinach or spirulina (a type of algae) suffered the loss of much fewer brain cells and recovered significantly more of their ability to move following a stroke.
The researchers studied four groups of rats. All were fed equal amounts of food for one month. The control (untreated) group ate chow only. A second group was given rat chow supplemented with blueberries, the third got chow with spinach, and the fourth received chow with spirulina.
After four weeks, an ischemic stroke with reperfusion was induced in the rats. (An ischemic stroke occurs when a blood clot blocks an artery, cutting off the supply of oxygen to the brain with the result that brain cells can be severely damaged and die). When the clot is cleared, the pent up oxygenated blood quickly rushes back in. Known as reperfusion, this restoration of blood flow can also result in brain damage as it causes cellular swelling, edema and the production of free radicals.
Rats given blueberry or spinach along with their chow, however, were protected: the size of the area of their brains damaged by the stroke was half that seen in the brains of the control rats.
Rats fed spirulina-enriched diets did even better; their stroke lesions were 75 per cent smaller than those of controls. In addition, but not surprisingly, rats pretreated with the blueberry, spinach or spirulina diets also showed regained more of their abilities to move after the stroke than rats in the control group. Neuroscientists think the reason for the improved outcome in blueberry, spinach or algae-treated rats is the same as that demonstrated in previous University of Florida/Veterans Administration research, which revealed that diets enriched with blueberries, spinach or spirulina reversed normal age-related declines in memory and learning in old rats. All these foods are exceptionally rich in antioxidants, which neuroscientists believe able to largely counteract the burst of free radicals triggered in brain cells by an ischemic stroke. It is this sudden excessive production of free radicals that damages the lipids, proteins and DNA in brain cells, causing their death.
Protection Against Cancer
In addition to their powerful anthocyanins, blueberries contain another antioxidant compound called ellagic acid, which blocks metabolic pathways that can lead to cancer. In a study of 1,271 elderly people in New Jersey, those who ate the most strawberries (another berry that contains ellagic acid) were three times less likely to develop cancer than those who ate few or no strawberries. In addition to containing ellagic acid, blueberries are high in the soluble fiber pectin, which has been shown to lower cholesterol and to prevent bile acid from being transformed into a potentially cancer-causing form.
Healthier Elimination
Blueberries can help relieve both diarrhea and constipation. In addition to soluble and insoluble fiber, blueberries also contain tannins, which act as astringents in the digestive system to reduce inflammation. Blueberries also promote urinary tract health. Blueberries contain the same compounds found in cranberries that help prevent or eliminate urinary tract infections. In order for bacteria to infect, they must first adhere to the mucosal lining of the urethra and bladder. Components found in cranberry and blueberry juice reduce the ability of E. coli, the bacteria that is the most common cause of urinary tract infections, to adhere.
Blueberries work in so many things. You can freeze them with cottage cheese to make a sort of ice cream, or eat them in yoghurt, or freeze them in yoghurt (my personal favourite). They also go really well in oats.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I love this time of year - it's when the best fresh blueberries are available (their season is May-October). I thought I would make a thread in their honour, with all the benefits they offer, because they have so many they really shouldn't be overlooked in a healthy diet. Plus they taste amazing.
Blueberries are the fruits of a shrub that belong to the heath family, which includes the cranberry and bilberry. Blueberries grow in clusters and range in size from that of a small pea to a marble. They are deep in color, ranging from blue to maroon to purple-black, and feature a white-gray waxy "bloom" that covers the surface serving as a protective coat. The skin surrounds a semi-transparent flesh that encases tiny seeds.
They are excellent for inclusion into our diets because they are quite low in calories compared to the benefits they offer us, such as antioxidants, vitamins, minerals and fiber.
An Antioxidant Powerhouse
Packed with antioxidant phytonutrients called anthocyanidins, blueberries neutralize free radical damage to the collagen matrix of cells and tissues that can lead to cataracts, glaucoma, varicose veins, hemorrhoids, peptic ulcers, heart disease and cancer. Anthocyanins, the blue-red pigments found in blueberries, improve the integrity of support structures in the veins and entire vascular system. Anthocyanins have been shown to enhance the effects of vitamin C, improve capillary integrity, and stabilize the collagen matrix (the ground substance of all body tissues). They work their protective magic by preventing free-radical damage, inhibiting enzymes from cleaving the collagen matrix, and directly cross-linking with collagen fibers to form a more stable collagen matrix.
Cardioprotective Action
While wine, particularly red wine, is touted as cardioprotective since it is a good source of antioxidant anthocyanins, a recent study found that blueberries deliver 38% more of these free radical fighters. In this study, published in the August 2003 issue of the Journal of Agriculture and Food Chemistry, researchers found that a moderate drink (about 4 ounces) of white wine contained .47 mmol of free radical absorbing antioxidants, red wine provided 2.04 mmol, and a wine made from highbush blueberries delivered 2.42 mmol of these protective plant compounds.(October 1, 2003)
Cholesterol-lowering Pterostilbene
Pterostilbene (pronounced TARE-oh-STILL-bean), a powerful antioxidant compound found in blueberries, which is already known to fight cancer, may also help lower cholesterol.
In a study using rat liver cells, scientists at the USDA Agricultural Research Service compared the cholesterol-lowering effects of pterostilbene to those of ciprofibrate, a lipid-lowering drug, and resveratrol, an antioxidant found in grapes with a chemical structure similar to pterostilbene that has been shown to help fight cancer and heart disease.
They based their comparison on each compound's ability to activate PPAR-alpha (short for peroxisome proliferator-activated receptor alpha). The PPARs are a family of receptors on cells all throughout the body that are involved in the absorption of compounds into cells for use in energy production. PPAR-alpha is crucial for the metabolism of lipids, including cholesterol. Pterostilbene was as effective as ciprofibrate and outperformed resveratrol in activating PPAR-alpha. The take away message: turn up your cholesterol burning machinery by eating more blueberries, grapes and and cranberries. (January 14, 2005)
A Visionary Fruit
Extracts of bilberry (a variety of blueberry) have been shown in numerous studies to improve nighttime visual acuity and promote quicker adjustment to darkness and faster restoration of visual acuity after exposure to glare. This research was conducted to evaluate claims of bilberry's beneficial effects on night vision made by British Air Force pilots during World War II who regularly consumed bilberry preserves before their night missions.
Protection against Macular Degeneration
Your mother may have told you carrots would keep your eyes bright as a child, but as an adult, it looks like fruit is even more important for keeping your sight. Data reported in a study published in the June 2004 issue of the Archives of Opthamology indicates that eating 3 or more servings of fruit per day may lower your risk of age-related macular degeneration (ARMD), the primary cause of vision loss in older adults, by 36%, compared to persons who consume less than 1.5 servings of fruit daily.
In this study, which involved 77,562 women and 40,866 men, researchers evaluated the effect of study participants' consumption of fruits; vegetables; the antioxidant vitamins A, C, and E; and carotenoids on the development of early ARMD or neovascular ARM, a more severe form of the illness associated with vision loss. Food intake information was collected periodically for up to 18 years for women and 12 years for men.
A Better Brain with Blueberries
In animal studies, researchers have found that blueberries help protect the brain from oxidative stress and may reduce the effects of age-related conditions such as Alzheimer’s disease or dementia. Researchers found that diets rich in blueberries significantly improved both the learning capacity and motor skills of aging rats, making them mentally equivalent to much younger rats.
Protect the Brain from Damage After a Stroke
Eating plenty of blueberries may significantly lessen brain damage from strokes and other neurological disorders, suggests a study published in the May 2005 issue of the Journal of Experimental Neurology.
Neuroscientists at the University of South Florida College of Medicine, James A. Haley Veterans' Hospital and the National Institute on Drug Abuse found that rats fed diets enriched with blueberries, spinach or spirulina (a type of algae) suffered the loss of much fewer brain cells and recovered significantly more of their ability to move following a stroke.
The researchers studied four groups of rats. All were fed equal amounts of food for one month. The control (untreated) group ate chow only. A second group was given rat chow supplemented with blueberries, the third got chow with spinach, and the fourth received chow with spirulina.
After four weeks, an ischemic stroke with reperfusion was induced in the rats. (An ischemic stroke occurs when a blood clot blocks an artery, cutting off the supply of oxygen to the brain with the result that brain cells can be severely damaged and die). When the clot is cleared, the pent up oxygenated blood quickly rushes back in. Known as reperfusion, this restoration of blood flow can also result in brain damage as it causes cellular swelling, edema and the production of free radicals.
Rats given blueberry or spinach along with their chow, however, were protected: the size of the area of their brains damaged by the stroke was half that seen in the brains of the control rats.
Rats fed spirulina-enriched diets did even better; their stroke lesions were 75 per cent smaller than those of controls. In addition, but not surprisingly, rats pretreated with the blueberry, spinach or spirulina diets also showed regained more of their abilities to move after the stroke than rats in the control group. Neuroscientists think the reason for the improved outcome in blueberry, spinach or algae-treated rats is the same as that demonstrated in previous University of Florida/Veterans Administration research, which revealed that diets enriched with blueberries, spinach or spirulina reversed normal age-related declines in memory and learning in old rats. All these foods are exceptionally rich in antioxidants, which neuroscientists believe able to largely counteract the burst of free radicals triggered in brain cells by an ischemic stroke. It is this sudden excessive production of free radicals that damages the lipids, proteins and DNA in brain cells, causing their death.
Protection Against Cancer
In addition to their powerful anthocyanins, blueberries contain another antioxidant compound called ellagic acid, which blocks metabolic pathways that can lead to cancer. In a study of 1,271 elderly people in New Jersey, those who ate the most strawberries (another berry that contains ellagic acid) were three times less likely to develop cancer than those who ate few or no strawberries. In addition to containing ellagic acid, blueberries are high in the soluble fiber pectin, which has been shown to lower cholesterol and to prevent bile acid from being transformed into a potentially cancer-causing form.
Healthier Elimination
Blueberries can help relieve both diarrhea and constipation. In addition to soluble and insoluble fiber, blueberries also contain tannins, which act as astringents in the digestive system to reduce inflammation. Blueberries also promote urinary tract health. Blueberries contain the same compounds found in cranberries that help prevent or eliminate urinary tract infections. In order for bacteria to infect, they must first adhere to the mucosal lining of the urethra and bladder. Components found in cranberry and blueberry juice reduce the ability of E. coli, the bacteria that is the most common cause of urinary tract infections, to adhere.
Blueberries work in so many things. You can freeze them with cottage cheese to make a sort of ice cream, or eat them in yoghurt, or freeze them in yoghurt (my personal favourite). They also go really well in oats.
gjohnson5
New member
Mr.X said:
True , I've read that fructose can be stored as fat without the presence of other carbohydrates. The problem with high fructose corn sweetener is that it preserves the shelf life of products , so it saves manufacturers $$$ when it is introduced into products. You'll be hard pressed to find a loaf of bread without High Fructose corn sweetener in it. Most fruit juices are like 10-30% juice and are sweetented by HFCS.
gjohnson5
New member
Carth said:
After seeing the pictures of your house and I guess that was an escalade , you definitly live the life every day! You definitly seem to be doing well for yourself. I wish you luck tomorrow.
I agree with Mr X's opinions on fruits as well. I read some cut and paste on spirulina. Spirulina is a vegetable not a fruit. I have different views on vegetables. Some fruits like grapes contain glucose (grape sugar = glucose)
I was just curious why people here havne't said they use Medium Chain Tryglyceride or coconut or enova oil for energy instead of sugar??
JKurz1
Banned
Off base bro...........I agree high fruct. syrup and fruit juices are JUNK! Never incorporate them....NEVER...gjohnson5 said:
However, we are talking about organic fruits, at a minimal amount at that....YES, I would let this die if I was wrong, but there are too many out there that will read this and stop eating fruits...........
Tell me if you agree:
Fructose (high syrups) - NO!
Juice (NO!)
Organic fruit - ok in small amounts and in moderation........when bulking, eat as many as you friggn want!!
gjohnson5
New member
JKurz1 said:
Jkurz , there are some people like terminator , khemix and maybe yourself who could eat 7k calories and not put on fat. I was like that as well when I was a quarter miler , shooting guard. When I hit age 31 , that all changed. Me and Mr BMJ were talking about this on another thread. I tend to use the bmr , rmr rates to calculate my calories because I am not that kind of person anymore. My metabolism slowed , so I have to be much more careful about what I eat. For myself , fruits and fructose related product are out the window.
You can get away with it. Most everyone else cannot so I tend to point my advise in that direction.
JKurz1 said:
A few years back I used to consume to cottage cheese a lot. But I always ended up bloated and with gas and sometimes the runs. Turns out I was lactose intolerant. But anyways...i do not eat that anymore. Too much sodium in that shit.
Cassein protein you said? That is all I drink. I consume no other protein but that! Whey protein..only pre and post workout.
Whacked said:Carth: Rice Cakes are about the worst damn thing you can eat carb wise brother (brutally high G-index).
Your other choices: Yams, Oatmeal, and brown rice (not a fan) are GREAT Carb options.
Eat what you want, just an FYI bro-mac
What brand of Rice Cakes are you talking about? Mine says brown rice on the ingredients. And its only 7grams of carbs per cake.
BTW guys. For me...not you guys. Since I eat whatever on the weekends. I always like to drink juice with my breakfast meals. Like OJ, or Strawberry juice etc etc. But all you guys say this is bad. Then what would be a good alternative that tastes like juice but is better for me????
Whacked said:
Holy shit! I have seen this many times in my supermarket and never bothered to approach it. What have you tried? Does it tast good?
Looks good but you know what? I don't really think it matters that much. Like I said, I only consume breakfast juice Saturdays and Sundays. You really think 2 days of the week is going to be bad for me??? I don't think so.
Mr.X said:
Mr.X...I now understand this part. But what would deplete glycogen from the liver in the first place? And how would I know this happened? Do I feel something?
slat1
New member
Carth said:
Without a doubt the best thing you can drink in the morning is Grapefruit Juice. Talk to any bodybuilder of health expert and you will find this to be the case. If you can get it fresh squeezed it tastes even better.
Of course anything in excess can have effects you don't want.
A half a glass is the way to go!
Whacked
New member
Fructose: Good for you? http://elitefitness.com/forum/showthread.php?t=102126
M
Mr.X
Guest
JKurz1 said:
no one is slamming them for the wrong reasons, read my reasons above, and watch your mouth - just because you throw out idiotic copy and paste evidence from "someone" it doesn't make it right.
Mr.X
M
Mr.X
Guest
JKurz1 said:
you're just wasting time posting copy and paste articles that mean nothing - you did not read a word of what I said did you? you can get the nutrients somewhere else.
M
Mr.X
Guest
gjohnson5 said:
high fructose products are the major cause of US obesity and this guy here, JKurz1, is advocating it , obviously he has no understanding of human physiology
M
Mr.X
Guest
JKurz1 said:
hey wait a minute, you're changing the topic, the topic was on regular fruit intake, not on organic minimal fruit intake haha, you have no proof or basis so you're changing your story - flip-flopping again, to suit your needs.
you have no idea what you're talking about; for, recommending empty calories and fructose to a bodybuilder that's leaning out for a show, as an example, can be beyond bad.
LOL, I think we are done here, you have NO idea what you're talking about. When a bodybuilder is bulking it does not mean he's 500lbs., it means he's gaining muscle mass. Eating 10 lbs. of fruit will make you fatter not bigger.
I've had about enough of arguing with a chimp here.
Mr.X
M
Mr.X
Guest
Carth said:
There is no formula for knowing that your liver glycogen is depleted. The easiest way, without a blood test, to figure out how your metabolic rate is doing is to take temperature readings in the AM right when you wake up. Do it during your refeed and for 1 week after and compare the results. You should see no more then a 1 degree change, some people see more but it varies on the individual.
Mr.X
M
Mr.X
Guest
READ THIS STUDY:
Nutr Rev. 2005 May;63(5):133-57.
Dietary fructose: implications for dysregulation of energy homeostasis and lipid/carbohydrate metabolism.
Havel PJ.
Department of Nutrition, University of California, One Shields Avenue, Davis, CA 95616, USA. [email protected]
Fructose intake and the prevalence of obesity have both increased over the past two to three decades. Compared with glucose, the hepatic metabolism of fructose favors lipogenesis, which may contribute to hyperlipidemia and obesity. Fructose does not increase insulin and leptin or suppress ghrelin, which suggests an endocrine mechanism by which it induces a positive energy balance. This review examines the available data on the effects of dietary fructose on energy homeostasis and lipid/carbohydrate metabolism. Recent publications, studies in human subjects, and areas in which additional research is needed are emphasized.
Nutr Rev. 2005 May;63(5):133-57.
Dietary fructose: implications for dysregulation of energy homeostasis and lipid/carbohydrate metabolism.
Havel PJ.
Department of Nutrition, University of California, One Shields Avenue, Davis, CA 95616, USA. [email protected]
Fructose intake and the prevalence of obesity have both increased over the past two to three decades. Compared with glucose, the hepatic metabolism of fructose favors lipogenesis, which may contribute to hyperlipidemia and obesity. Fructose does not increase insulin and leptin or suppress ghrelin, which suggests an endocrine mechanism by which it induces a positive energy balance. This review examines the available data on the effects of dietary fructose on energy homeostasis and lipid/carbohydrate metabolism. Recent publications, studies in human subjects, and areas in which additional research is needed are emphasized.
M
Mr.X
Guest
another study posted in this thread:
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showpost.php?p=5084503&postcount=36
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showpost.php?p=5084503&postcount=36
Joe Stenson
New member
slat1 said:
Maybe if you're using orals
M
Mr.X
Guest
Nutr Metab (Lond). 2005 Feb 21;2(1):5.
Fructose, insulin resistance, and metabolic dyslipidemia.
Basciano H, Federico L, Adeli K.
Clinical Biochemistry Division, Department of Laboratory Medicine and Pathobiology, Hospital for Sick Children, University of Toronto, Toronto, Ontario, Canada. [email protected].
Obesity and type 2 diabetes are occurring at epidemic rates in the United States and many parts of the world. The "obesity epidemic" appears to have emerged largely from changes in our diet and reduced physical activity. An important but not well-appreciated dietary change has been the substantial increase in the amount of dietary fructose consumption from high intake of sucrose and high fructose corn syrup, a common sweetener used in the food industry. A high flux of fructose to the liver, the main organ capable of metabolizing this simple carbohydrate, perturbs glucose metabolism and glucose uptake pathways, and leads to a significantly enhanced rate of de novo lipogenesis and triglyceride (TG) synthesis, driven by the high flux of glycerol and acyl portions of TG molecules from fructose catabolism. These metabolic disturbances appear to underlie the induction of insulin resistance commonly observed with high fructose feeding in both humans and animal models. Fructose-induced insulin resistant states are commonly characterized by a profound metabolic dyslipidemia, which appears to result from hepatic and intestinal overproduction of atherogenic lipoprotein particles. Thus, emerging evidence from recent epidemiological and biochemical studies clearly suggests that the high dietary intake of fructose has rapidly become an important causative factor in the development of the metabolic syndrome. There is an urgent need for increased public awareness of the risks associated with high fructose consumption and greater efforts should be made to curb the supplementation of packaged foods with high fructose additives. The present review will discuss the trends in fructose consumption, the metabolic consequences of increased fructose intake, and the molecular mechanisms leading to fructose-induced lipogenesis, insulin resistance and metabolic dyslipidemia.
Fructose, insulin resistance, and metabolic dyslipidemia.
Basciano H, Federico L, Adeli K.
Clinical Biochemistry Division, Department of Laboratory Medicine and Pathobiology, Hospital for Sick Children, University of Toronto, Toronto, Ontario, Canada. [email protected].
Obesity and type 2 diabetes are occurring at epidemic rates in the United States and many parts of the world. The "obesity epidemic" appears to have emerged largely from changes in our diet and reduced physical activity. An important but not well-appreciated dietary change has been the substantial increase in the amount of dietary fructose consumption from high intake of sucrose and high fructose corn syrup, a common sweetener used in the food industry. A high flux of fructose to the liver, the main organ capable of metabolizing this simple carbohydrate, perturbs glucose metabolism and glucose uptake pathways, and leads to a significantly enhanced rate of de novo lipogenesis and triglyceride (TG) synthesis, driven by the high flux of glycerol and acyl portions of TG molecules from fructose catabolism. These metabolic disturbances appear to underlie the induction of insulin resistance commonly observed with high fructose feeding in both humans and animal models. Fructose-induced insulin resistant states are commonly characterized by a profound metabolic dyslipidemia, which appears to result from hepatic and intestinal overproduction of atherogenic lipoprotein particles. Thus, emerging evidence from recent epidemiological and biochemical studies clearly suggests that the high dietary intake of fructose has rapidly become an important causative factor in the development of the metabolic syndrome. There is an urgent need for increased public awareness of the risks associated with high fructose consumption and greater efforts should be made to curb the supplementation of packaged foods with high fructose additives. The present review will discuss the trends in fructose consumption, the metabolic consequences of increased fructose intake, and the molecular mechanisms leading to fructose-induced lipogenesis, insulin resistance and metabolic dyslipidemia.
M
Mr.X
Guest
Horm Metab Res. 2005 Jan;37(1):32-5.
Effects of dietary fructose on liver steatosis in overfed mule ducks.
Davail S, Rideau N, Bernadet MD, Andre JM, Guy G, Hoo-Paris R.
Laboratoire de Biologie et Nutrition Appliquee, IUT des Pays de l'Adour, Mont de Marsan, 371 rue du Ruisseau BP 201, 40004 Mont de Marsan Cedex, France.
Overfeeding of some waterfowl species results in obesity, which is mainly characterized by a dramatic hepatic steatosis induced by strong accumulation of lipids synthesized from dietary glucose in the liver. In mammals, fructose is known to be able to raise plasma triacylglycerol concentrations significantly; consequently, this may induce obesity. The aim of this study was to assess the effect of partial replacement of dietary glucose provided by corn starch with fructose on metabolism and fatty liver production in the Mule ducks. On the basis of 9.5 kg maize (132,920 kJ) given twice a day for 14 days, a supplementation of 9,800 kJ was provided in form of glucose, sucrose or high fructose corn syrup (HFCS: 50 % glucose, 42 % fructose and 8 % other saccharides). Fatty liver weight in ducks fed with glucose supplementation was 499 +/- 21 g. Sucrose or HFCS supplementation brought about a significant increase in liver weight (+ 18.7 % and + 16.3 % vs. glucose supplementation respectively, p < 0.05). These results suggest that the dietary fructose favors the liver steatosis by increasing hepatic lipogenesis. Postprandial plasma insulin concentrations were similar in ducks fed diets with or without fructose, suggesting that the effect of fructose on liver steatosis is not mediated by insulin.
Effects of dietary fructose on liver steatosis in overfed mule ducks.
Davail S, Rideau N, Bernadet MD, Andre JM, Guy G, Hoo-Paris R.
Laboratoire de Biologie et Nutrition Appliquee, IUT des Pays de l'Adour, Mont de Marsan, 371 rue du Ruisseau BP 201, 40004 Mont de Marsan Cedex, France.
Overfeeding of some waterfowl species results in obesity, which is mainly characterized by a dramatic hepatic steatosis induced by strong accumulation of lipids synthesized from dietary glucose in the liver. In mammals, fructose is known to be able to raise plasma triacylglycerol concentrations significantly; consequently, this may induce obesity. The aim of this study was to assess the effect of partial replacement of dietary glucose provided by corn starch with fructose on metabolism and fatty liver production in the Mule ducks. On the basis of 9.5 kg maize (132,920 kJ) given twice a day for 14 days, a supplementation of 9,800 kJ was provided in form of glucose, sucrose or high fructose corn syrup (HFCS: 50 % glucose, 42 % fructose and 8 % other saccharides). Fatty liver weight in ducks fed with glucose supplementation was 499 +/- 21 g. Sucrose or HFCS supplementation brought about a significant increase in liver weight (+ 18.7 % and + 16.3 % vs. glucose supplementation respectively, p < 0.05). These results suggest that the dietary fructose favors the liver steatosis by increasing hepatic lipogenesis. Postprandial plasma insulin concentrations were similar in ducks fed diets with or without fructose, suggesting that the effect of fructose on liver steatosis is not mediated by insulin.
Joe Stenson
New member
Mr.X said:
Table sugar is 50/50 sucrose/fructose, so you can make the argument that the hypothetical guy may end up ingesting too much fructose. Aside from that, try to explain the difference to me between eating table sugar vs. oats, given adequate protein and EFA intake.
Here's 2 quotes from Lyle McDonald. I happen to like his work and feel that if you want to talk about what an "optimal" diet looks like, then you definitely need to consider his work in the field:
This quote explains why a piece of fruit here and there is not a bad thing:
"So it's not about rationalizing anything, it's about the realities of long-term changes for people. Expecting perfection is almost always a recipe for failure. Allowing people a little bit of the 'bad' stuff (and note that I do not like putting foods into good and bad categories, this puts a moral spin on it that messes with people badly; a healthy food can be terribly bad in excess and a 'unhealthy' food can be fine in moderation) often helps them make the other changes in the long-term."
This quote is one he has made over and over again, and really challenges the whole "eating clean to maximize results" philosophy:
"I will contend that, given sufficent protein and EFA's, you can get
ripped on table sugar.
Appetite will be the determining factor.
Because 80% of the variance in what you lose (bodyfat vs. muscle) is NOT
determined by diet, it's determined by your body. Once you meet certain
requirements (protein, EFA, calories, weight training), the rest of your
diet means nothing outside of it's ability to meete appetite and
psychological needs (and exercise prformance)"
IMO, appetite control is something largely overlooked on most cutting diets. The actual physical effects of eating table sugar vs. eating oats are negligible at best. It's the fact that one allows for greater feelings of satiety (as well as more stable energy levels), thus making sure calories stay low, that makes the difference.
gjohnson5
New member
Joe Stenson said:
"Because 80% of the variance in what you lose (bodyfat vs. muscle) is NOT
determined by diet, it's determined by your body."
I think MR X is through with this thread so I will chime in and he can come with his own comments if he so chooses.
This is the exact reason why I avoid fructose entirely. I feel that person A
225lb 10%
300g protein = 1200 calories
50g efa = 450 calories
if the person metabolism is slow such as mine I feel that the conversion of fructose to fat will be even greater due to the fact that the necessary caloric intake and above macronutrients are already met. The human body can convert proteins into glucose and the liver can and does take fatty acids and use them for energy. Add fructose which has a high probability of being converted to fat even without the presence of other carbs. So I feel they would become MORE fat not stay even keel.
The whole purpose of oats , yams and fibrous green vegetables is to have a low GI SLOW digesting carbohydrate that is broken down into GLUCOSE.
M
Mr.X
Guest
Joe Stenson said:
Actually, I don't respect a word out of Lyle's mouth, he's a "so called" guru, but when I looked at him that's all I needed to know. The man is a failure and listening to him or reading his trash is useles. He copied a majority of his book from Dan Duchaine quotes and didn't give Dan any credit - it's pathetic. The man has nothing but copyright infringement written on his head. A good friend of mine still has emails from Dan to Lyle, same email text you can find in Lyle's book lol, straight copy and paste job.
I don't know why I waste my time on this but I will explain to you the difference.
Glycemic Index: GI rank for Oatmeal is 48-52 (depending on guide) + extra fiber for slower digestion, GI rank for sugar is 78 (80) and that's because of the fructose in it - sucrose is 83.
Mr.X
Joe Stenson
New member
gjohnson5 said:
Good response. I really can't disagree with that. And thanks for keeping it toned down.
gjohnson5 said:
...to provide a more stable source of energy (like I said).
However, something that is overlooked is the satiety effects of these foods. There's a big difference between 50g of oats vs. 50g of dextrose in terms of hunger.
Mr.X said:
LMFAO...WOW, just WOW.
It's funny this exact topic came up on another board the other day, and we were just all TEARING into a guy who said something similar to you. To think that possessing knowledge of something and actually having the desire to use that knowledge are one and the same is probably the biggest fallacy you can think of. I guess you can take the advice of anyone with a good physique then eh?
Madcow actually talked about this in the training section the other day when he said he'd never take bodybuilding advice from a pro. And really, you can't "look the part" more than a pro does.
Honestly, disagree with me all you want, but seriously come up with a better reason for not liking a guy. I actually respect the advice you give 99% of the time, so this is really just shocking to hear from you. It's something a 17-year old kid would use in his argument.
Mr.X said:
Another "shocking" piece of information. Oats are lower GI than table sugar? No way.
Presenting information from a glycemic index table isn't defending an argument. Why does GI matter? People haven't cared about the GI of foods much since a "revolutionary" discovery was made a few years ago: that people eat MEALS, not single foods in isolation. And when you throw some protein and/or fat in with the table sugar the GI drops significantly, making it virtually moot.
I guess you're one of the guys who also says you HAVE to have high GI carbs post-workout. Cuz I mean, it's not like glycogen stores can be replensished with low GI carbs or anything
.
gjohnson5
New member
Joe Stenson said:
It is overlooked because YOU are overlooking it. As you stated in your example the person has already swallowed ample amounts of proteins and fats, how do you think his appetite will be??? Take a tablespoon of flax which has about 14g of fats and 10g of efa's in it and see what happens to your appetite.
You really shouldn't swallow flax by itself becuase it's mostly polyunsaturated fats, so you should get some monounsaturated fats such as olive oil which has known good health effects and will be another 14g of fats and 10g efa.
Then snak on some peanuts or cashews or macadamia and then fry something in vegetable oil and you'll be surprised what happens to your calorie intake and your appetite.
M
Mr.X
Guest
...to provide a more stable source of energy (like I said).
However, something that is overlooked is the satiety effects of these foods. There's a big difference between 50g of oats vs. 50g of dextrose in terms of hunger.
sounds like you are not even understanding the point you're pushing, saying sugar is a stable source of carbohydrates when compared to oats really makes you look like a arrogant person here
LMFAO...WOW, just WOW.
It's funny this exact topic came up on another board the other day, and we were just all TEARING into a guy who said something similar to you. To think that possessing knowledge of something and actually having the desire to use that knowledge are one and the same is probably the biggest fallacy you can think of. I guess you can take the advice of anyone with a good physique then eh?
go ahead tear into me...Lyle is a moron, was a moron and will always be a moron, why don't you quote that? no problem. Lyle is a liar and a thief. He wrote his whole book based on copyrighted material he just copied and pasted. Bro, get a life and get off your knees , Lyle needs to rest
Madcow actually talked about this in the training section the other day when he said he'd never take bodybuilding advice from a pro. And really, you can't "look the part" more than a pro does.
mad who? what the hell are you talking about bro? you're off topic here. I don't have all the time in the world to discuss idiotic issues
Honestly, disagree with me all you want, but seriously come up with a better reason for not liking a guy. I actually respect the advice you give 99% of the time, so this is really just shocking to hear from you. It's something a 17-year old kid would use in his argument.
hey, it sounds like you have a reading problem, did you read everything I provided? obiviously not. Read the scientific evidence behind my words. Your argument is false and unfounded. Stick to the point, you are the one making an argument equivalent to a 10 year old. 'NO NO YOU'RE WRONG' type of saying. Just admit you're wrong, which you are. It's obvious you have no real understanding of bodybuilding or you wouldn't advocate fructose intake or think that oatmeal is just as good as table sugar!
Another "shocking" piece of information. Oats are lower GI than table sugar? No way.
LOL, look buddy just because you claim you know everything it doesn't mean you do, you're an ignorant person and I understand that but your claims are completely idiotic
Presenting information from a glycemic index table isn't defending an argument. Why does GI matter? People haven't cared about the GI of foods much since a "revolutionary" discovery was made a few years ago: that people eat MEALS, not single foods in isolation. And when you throw some protein and/or fat in with the table sugar the GI drops significantly, making it virtually moot.
I guess you're one of the guys who also says you HAVE to have high GI carbs post-workout. Cuz I mean, it's not like glycogen stores can be replensished with low GI carbs or anything.
yes "cuz" you really know what you're talking "bout". Ok, well how can I prove a fool that thinks he knows it all wrong? I can't, can I. Yes, you're right , you're smarter then American Diabetes Association and American Medical Association combined; I thought so the first time I read your post
I'll leave you with a great saying by Aristotle; "a man knows is still a man, a man doesn't know tis say does he is nothing but a fool."
This will be my last post here I've said everything that needs to be said.
Mr.X
However, something that is overlooked is the satiety effects of these foods. There's a big difference between 50g of oats vs. 50g of dextrose in terms of hunger.
sounds like you are not even understanding the point you're pushing, saying sugar is a stable source of carbohydrates when compared to oats really makes you look like a arrogant person here
LMFAO...WOW, just WOW.
It's funny this exact topic came up on another board the other day, and we were just all TEARING into a guy who said something similar to you. To think that possessing knowledge of something and actually having the desire to use that knowledge are one and the same is probably the biggest fallacy you can think of. I guess you can take the advice of anyone with a good physique then eh?
go ahead tear into me...Lyle is a moron, was a moron and will always be a moron, why don't you quote that? no problem. Lyle is a liar and a thief. He wrote his whole book based on copyrighted material he just copied and pasted. Bro, get a life and get off your knees , Lyle needs to rest
Madcow actually talked about this in the training section the other day when he said he'd never take bodybuilding advice from a pro. And really, you can't "look the part" more than a pro does.
mad who? what the hell are you talking about bro? you're off topic here. I don't have all the time in the world to discuss idiotic issues
Honestly, disagree with me all you want, but seriously come up with a better reason for not liking a guy. I actually respect the advice you give 99% of the time, so this is really just shocking to hear from you. It's something a 17-year old kid would use in his argument.
hey, it sounds like you have a reading problem, did you read everything I provided? obiviously not. Read the scientific evidence behind my words. Your argument is false and unfounded. Stick to the point, you are the one making an argument equivalent to a 10 year old. 'NO NO YOU'RE WRONG' type of saying. Just admit you're wrong, which you are. It's obvious you have no real understanding of bodybuilding or you wouldn't advocate fructose intake or think that oatmeal is just as good as table sugar!
Another "shocking" piece of information. Oats are lower GI than table sugar? No way.
LOL, look buddy just because you claim you know everything it doesn't mean you do, you're an ignorant person and I understand that but your claims are completely idiotic
Presenting information from a glycemic index table isn't defending an argument. Why does GI matter? People haven't cared about the GI of foods much since a "revolutionary" discovery was made a few years ago: that people eat MEALS, not single foods in isolation. And when you throw some protein and/or fat in with the table sugar the GI drops significantly, making it virtually moot.
I guess you're one of the guys who also says you HAVE to have high GI carbs post-workout. Cuz I mean, it's not like glycogen stores can be replensished with low GI carbs or anything
.yes "cuz" you really know what you're talking "bout". Ok, well how can I prove a fool that thinks he knows it all wrong? I can't, can I. Yes, you're right , you're smarter then American Diabetes Association and American Medical Association combined; I thought so the first time I read your post
I'll leave you with a great saying by Aristotle; "a man knows is still a man, a man doesn't know tis say does he is nothing but a fool."
This will be my last post here I've said everything that needs to be said.
Mr.X
Joe Stenson
New member
gjohnson5 said:
Man, anyway you slice it, myself (and many others) are going to be ravenously hungry eating only 2000 calories/day. My point is thus that you don't want to be "wasting" those calories on foods (like table sugar) that aren't going to fill you up at all.
I realize that fat and protein have a pretty good effect on satiety, but when overall calories are limited, you're still going to be hungry. And the difference between a diet that succeeds and one that doesn't, is being able to stay on that diet. (Basically any diet will work. It's sticking with it long enough to see the desired results that makes it a success.) If eating oats is going to keep you reasonably satiated, while eating table sugar is going to leave you wanting to cheat on pizza and ice cream, then it's the better choice. Aside from that, there isn't much difference.
gjohnson5
New member
Why are people not talking about coconut oil a replacement for sugar
http://www.alternative-healthzine.com/html/0108_2.html
http://www.alternative-healthzine.com/html/0108_2.html
Joe Stenson
New member
Mr.X said:
No, YOU are not understanding my point. I said that oats provide the stable source of energy and table sugar does not. That was one of 2 differences I clearly pointed out between the two.
Mr.X said:
Madcow is the guy who posted up Bill Starr's 5x5 routine that a ton of guys are now using and having great success with. I guess you don't read the training section. That's cool.
Mr.X said:
You've posted a bunch of studies indicating why one should avoid fructose. That's fine. I said a couple pages ago that fruit probably isn't the best source of calories, but if a guy wants to have a piece of fruit he shouldn't worry.
Mr.X said:
You didn't even acknowledge what I said about low GI carbs and their ability to replenish glycogen. So, (times are only for illustrative purposes) high GI carbs re-fill glycogen in a couple hours, low GI takes 10 hours. So what? Unless you were planning on doing another training session right away, what's the difference?
You've yet to defend any argument you've presented. You just call me an idiot and say I don't know what I'm talking about. Whether that's true or not, you're not doing a particularly good job of proving to me, or anyone else for that matter, why what you're saying is true and what I'm saying is not.
JKurz1
Banned
MR.X...I'm calling you and your theories out.....post a picture, today and shut me up.....If you practice what you preach and look in half-way decent shape...I'll bow down and say I was 100% in the wrong and apologize. I'll call my views ignorant and uneducated.
No pic? Well, that will speak for itself.....Cmon...everyone wants to see the man behind the "X"...........
No pic? Well, that will speak for itself.....Cmon...everyone wants to see the man behind the "X"...........
deltreefitness
New member
JKurz1 said:
Not only that but I really have to question the boiavailbity of getting most (if not all) of your nutrients and vitamins from pills or powder like Mr.X has alluded to.
slat1 said:
That stuff tastes REALLY bad bro!
toufeksian
New member
i have a question about fructose
the liver can convert the fructose into glucose and send it to the bloodstream right?
if this is right , cant it be taken by the muscle to replenish muscle glycogen?
i know it would take a lot of time to do this comparing to the intake of dextrose for example, but in a general term, can fructose replenish muscle glycogen ?
PD: i know this is out of the topic about eating fruits , but its related to fructose
the liver can convert the fructose into glucose and send it to the bloodstream right?
if this is right , cant it be taken by the muscle to replenish muscle glycogen?
i know it would take a lot of time to do this comparing to the intake of dextrose for example, but in a general term, can fructose replenish muscle glycogen ?
PD: i know this is out of the topic about eating fruits , but its related to fructose
Specialbearkg
New member
why all the hating on Mr.x?!?!?!
he just posted his opinion on the subject, argued a bit, and posted studies to back him up.
To call him out is retarded and makes you sound like a stupid illiterate meat head.
WOuld u agree or disagree that someone like Phil Jackson/Larry Brown/etc etc do not understand thier field better than 99% of the coaches in basketball in this case?!?! Yet, we have former players who have 'walked the walk' and have gone no where.... i.e Michael Jordan, Isiah Thomas, and some who have succeded, Joe Dumars.
JKurz, stfu for once. ur last resort is to call ppl out. You have a great physique no doubt, but this does not make u smarter or give u a better understanding of human biology. A geeky 100 lb chinese nerd may know more than u but doesnt care to APPLY the knowledge.
Eat a piece of fruit a day, and enjoy it
(MY contribution)
he just posted his opinion on the subject, argued a bit, and posted studies to back him up.
To call him out is retarded and makes you sound like a stupid illiterate meat head.
WOuld u agree or disagree that someone like Phil Jackson/Larry Brown/etc etc do not understand thier field better than 99% of the coaches in basketball in this case?!?! Yet, we have former players who have 'walked the walk' and have gone no where.... i.e Michael Jordan, Isiah Thomas, and some who have succeded, Joe Dumars.
JKurz, stfu for once. ur last resort is to call ppl out. You have a great physique no doubt, but this does not make u smarter or give u a better understanding of human biology. A geeky 100 lb chinese nerd may know more than u but doesnt care to APPLY the knowledge.
Eat a piece of fruit a day, and enjoy it
(MY contribution)Joe Stenson
New member
Specialbearkg said:why all the hating on Mr.x?!?!?!
he just posted his opinion on the subject, argued a bit, and posted studies to back him up.
To call him out is retarded and makes you sound like a stupid illiterate meat head.
WOuld u agree or disagree that someone like Phil Jackson/Larry Brown/etc etc do not understand thier field better than 99% of the coaches in basketball in this case?!?! Yet, we have former players who have 'walked the walk' and have gone no where.... i.e Michael Jordan, Isiah Thomas, and some who have succeded, Joe Dumars.
JKurz, stfu for once. ur last resort is to call ppl out. You have a great physique no doubt, but this does not make u smarter or give u a better understanding of human biology. A geeky 100 lb chinese nerd may know more than u but doesnt care to APPLY the knowledge.
Eat a piece of fruit a day, and enjoy it
I agree with most of your post. The only thing I don't like is that you're backing Mr. X using an argument OPPOSING what he said. He was the one who claimed Lyle McDonald was a flake and doesn't know jack about bodybuilding nutrition because he's not jacked. Just thought it was kind of ironic that you're backing a guy by using exactly what he argued against.
pintoca
New member
gjohnson5 said:You should go back into that hole u came from
lol, this has been an entertaining thread to read. Informative at some points too.
For what it is worth it, I don't eat any fruits, simply because I have never been a big fan of them, however, anything taken to the extremes will somehow backfire... so what is the issue if you eat a small apple a day or not? If you "feel" (and after a while we all learn to tell small changes in our bodies) that is hampering your progress, then drop it, evaluate for 2 weeks and compare.
For me it's simply a matter a convenience, I started out with a rather complicated diet with 10s of foods in it... now? I could count my staples with the fingers in one hand...over time you appreciate convenience over flavor... i'd care about flavor for my cheat meals.
I used the same "empty cals" argument when deciding to drop all peanut-related foods from my diets: Sure, I could have 2 handful of peanuts or a tbsp here and there of ANPB... will that be more satisfying than a chicken breast? maybe, for the 10 seconds it will take me to eat them... what will help me control cravings better? obvious...
Joe Stenson
New member
pintoca said:
Albeit not THE best source of healthy fats, peanuts and all-natural peanut butter are pretty good. And being fat, they should have quite a good affect on satiety. So, I don't really see where you're going with this...
pintoca
New member
Joe Stenson said:
simple, I use fats as just that: I take the flax or walnut oil by the tablespoon... people tend to see peanuts (a handfull here or there) as a snack... It is a pretty costly snack (caloric wise), so it is easy to over do it (since peanuts are ooohhh so tasty)... in my case I found it easier to simply add another chicken breast or so and skip peanuts as a snack.
The argumet is simple, you have a daily caloric budget, you see how you spend it, with some foods you can "stretch it" (in terms of satiety and nutrition value), with some foods you are simply splurging
Joe Stenson
New member
pintoca said:
Ok, I see. Thanks.
JKurz1
Banned
I think the thread is dead...no realy point anymore...............here's the consenusu:
FRUIT - A PIECE A DAY IS ABSOLUTELY FINE AND WILL DO NOTHING BUT GOOD THINGS FOR YOUR BODY AND SYSTEM ON A CUT. STICK TO APPLES, BERRIES, AND LOWER GI FRUITS. WHEN BULKING, EAT AS MUCH AS YOU WOULD LIKE (INSIDE YOUR CALOIRC RANGE)
DAIRY - UP IN THE AIR......SOME DO SOME DONT....ON A BULK, THERE IS NO EASIER WAY TO GET A LOT OF CALS THAN 2% OR WHOLE MILK (OR ANPB!!) I'LL STICK TO DRY CURD COTTAGE CHEESE AND 1%........GOOD TO GO.
SUGAR SUBS - WE NEVER GOT INTO DEXTROSE....IVE NEVER USED IT AND DONT BELIEVE IT'S NECESSARY. AS FAR AS SPLENDA..........IT WILL PROB. GIVE US ALL CANCER IN 30 YEARS.
FRUIT - A PIECE A DAY IS ABSOLUTELY FINE AND WILL DO NOTHING BUT GOOD THINGS FOR YOUR BODY AND SYSTEM ON A CUT. STICK TO APPLES, BERRIES, AND LOWER GI FRUITS. WHEN BULKING, EAT AS MUCH AS YOU WOULD LIKE (INSIDE YOUR CALOIRC RANGE)
DAIRY - UP IN THE AIR......SOME DO SOME DONT....ON A BULK, THERE IS NO EASIER WAY TO GET A LOT OF CALS THAN 2% OR WHOLE MILK (OR ANPB!!) I'LL STICK TO DRY CURD COTTAGE CHEESE AND 1%........GOOD TO GO.
SUGAR SUBS - WE NEVER GOT INTO DEXTROSE....IVE NEVER USED IT AND DONT BELIEVE IT'S NECESSARY. AS FAR AS SPLENDA..........IT WILL PROB. GIVE US ALL CANCER IN 30 YEARS.
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