Do you count BCAAs towards your calories/protein?

[bigbassturd]

Man, you're having a flat out argument with guys who've made it a lifetime passion to study supplementation, not to mention being just plain wrong. Broscience doesn't cut it here, we actually back our facts up with known scientific studies of respected researchers.

Have you ever been on an IF diet?

 

[germaine91]

Show me the studies of how powdered carbohydrates are more beneficial to supplement during a fast vs BCAAs. That is the first time ever heard that, and frankly sounds like broscience to me. Carbohydrates will spike insulin big time and leave them elevated where BCAAs have a very small impact on insulin levels on both time and severity.

I'll look for the study for you but I don't think it was comparing the two directly. Anyway, BCAAs also spike insulin big time to so your assertion is wrong.

Everything you claim goes against lots of research and advocates of intermittent fasting and BCAA supplementation from people like Martin Berkhan.

I'm on my phone now, but later I would be happy to give you plenty of information that disputes everything you claim. But you can go to Intermittent fasting diet for fat loss, muscle gain and health for a start. He has a lot of links to studies at his site

While I think Martin has done great work, especially disproving the whole 6 meals a day, the research on IF is questionable at best as is the need for BCAAs during fasted period. He recommends them as a safeguard, but that's about it. Lyle McDonald has recently been calling out Martin over some of his stuff and even Layne Norton has recently had disagreement with him.

Interesting discussion though. I don't think I've ever been in a position of having to defend scientific evidence against hypothetical or imaginary criticism.

It's criticism of the research behind BCAAs. There is nothing to substantiate that adding BCAAs to a diet that already has an abundance of BCAAs will lead to more muscle growth or muscle preservation.

What I have posted:

- Several references to credible studies showing the benefit of BCAA supplementation.

- A jounal article that does a good job explaining the mechanism behind the benefit, and the metabolic pathways that provide the logic for excess BCAA supplementation.

What you have posted:

- That BCAA supplementation is only effective in protein deficient subjects - with no references or evidence to back this up.

- That the studies I posted are flawed because protein intake of the subjects was inadequate, with no evidence that this is true and no knowledge of those studies or what was required for those specific subjects.

Talk about hearsay, hype and hope man, it sounds like you are talking about your own position unless you've got something substantial you haven't shared yet.

First, I pointed flaws in your studies which make them invalid.

Second, I did in fact post research in my earlier posts.

With regards BCAAs being beneficial to a protein deficient diet, that's what all the studies 'proving' BCAAs are useful are.

There is no evidence to suggest supplementing BCAAs to a diet already in abundance of BCAAs is useful to muscle growth/preservation. That is the problem.

 

[germaine91]

Man, you're having a flat out argument with guys who've made it a lifetime passion to study supplementation, not to mention being just plain wrong. Broscience doesn't cut it here, we actually back our facts up with known scientific studies of respected researchers.

Have you ever been on an IF diet?

I have tried IF. It's a great tool when cutting. Why do you ask?

Anyway, I'm not talking broscience. In fact, it's quite the opposite. Supplement companies carry out tons of research trying to prove their supplementation works. In this case, there is no research proving that adding BCAAs to a diet already in abundance of BCAAs will have any effect on body composition. Anyone can post studies. What matters is the content of the studies. The studies on BCAAs don't hold up.

Do you know who Alan Aragon is? The person I have directed quoted in this thread.

 

[germaine91]

"A. Aragon: No, supplemental BCAA is not necessary unless you’re not consuming enough high quality protein. Bodybuilders get marketed to death about the benefits of free-form BCAA when there’s no objective evidence of their benefit over the pre-existing BCAA within the matrix of real food. People forget that BCAA is abundant in many foods in nature, especially animal proteins. I base all of my beliefs and recommendations on scientific evidence, not subjective placebo and marketing driven testimony. You can be sure that if someone believes (by whatever means it took to convince him) that extra BCAA will work, it will. However, it’s the belief that’s the active agent, not the BCAA.

You can create the same effect by convincing someone that a lucky rabbit’s foot in his right pocket will increase his lifting strength. If the person is truly convinced or even if the person has deeply vested hopes in the product or protocol, it indeed will work. The mind has powerful effects on the body. It always has and always will.

Until I see solid replicated scientific evidence of the benefits of stacking supplemental BCAA on top of a pre-existing high protein intake (as compared to simply increasing total protein), I’m not going to buy into the hype. I’ve even experimented with my athletic clientele and had them ditch supplemental BCAA in favor of an increased protein intake. Not only did I save them a lot of money, but their performance and body composition continues to improve. I know that it’s not a tightly controlled experiment, but it definitely puts me at ease that I’m not missing out on any “magic.”

 

[germaine91]

BCAA-enriched protein supplementation had some positive limelight in 1997 (Mourier et al), but they pitted it against a soy protein supp, so the results were pretty predictable. Aside from that & the Scivation-sponsored trial you mentioned, the effect of additional BCAA in long-term trials hasn't panned out in other research (Kerksick et al, 2006), which had no vested interest in the outcomes. The as-yet unpublished Xtend/Stoppani et al study you mentioned has some questionably dramatic outcomes resulting from what amounts to an extra 7g BCAA plus some rather inert/marginally supported compounds. It's far from qualifying as remotely definitive evidence. These outcomes are particularly curious when you consider that this supposedly occurred despite a high protein intake. The whole thing reeks of commercial bias. And of course, here's my fave footage of the lead researcher of the Xtend study:

http://www.muscleandfitness.com/bcaa/videos/81

 

[germaine91]

It seems in this thread people are not actually recognising the studies I have in fact referenced, not just linked. I think everyone should read over all of my posts before commenting again because I think you's are missing some elements.

 

[Headholio]

It seems in this thread people are not actually recognising the studies I have in fact referenced, not just linked. I think everyone should read over all of my posts before commenting again because I think you's are missing some elements.

Yeah I'm missing something. I'm missing the reference you posted that backs up your assertion that BCAA supplementation is only effective in protein deficient diets. Please point me to it.

 

[Headholio]

What was your point in posting this link?

Exogenous amino acids stimulat... [Am J Physiol Endocrinol Metab. 2005] - PubMed - NCBI

These data indicate that CAA (carb-amino acid) supplementation produces a greater anabolic effect than ingestion of intact protein but does not interfere with the normal metabolic response to a meal.

 

[germaine91]

Yeah I'm missing something. I'm missing the reference you posted that backs up your assertion that BCAA supplementation is only effective in protein deficient diets. Please point me to it.

That assertion is based upon the fact that all the studies that show BCAA being effective are in diets of the RDA of protein, which is 0.8g/kg. I've said this numerous times. Until they can duplicate studies where both groups have a controlled protein intake of at least 1.8-2.0g/kg, then the studies don't hold up.

 

[germaine91]

There is no evidence to suggest supplementing BCAAs to a diet already in abundance of BCAAs is useful to muscle growth/preservation.

Quoted for emphasis.