Do you count BCAAs towards your calories/protein?

[RickRock13]

BCAAs are an important part of fasted training....as it allows the benefit of protein synthesis without the effect on spiking insulin levels (breaking the fast) unlike taking in food sources. BCAAs are also more readily available to the body when ingested pre, intra, and post training because they do need to be broken down to be utilized by the body.

Also, to say there is no benefit to fasted training is ridiculous. Its benefits are widely known and researched (especially fasted cardio)

 

[germaine91]

If you take in carbs, you are no longer fasted. Get that through your skull. Whether you agree with fasted training or not doesn't change the fact that it's what Rick and I were both referring to as the reason/circumstances we use BCAAs. Saying "this will work better than BCAAs" doesn't do any good if it means you are taking away and changing the circumstances. And there are plenty of proven benefits to training fasted - quite a few people on the thread here and throughout the lifting world have written on the subject.

And 60 calories for 10g of BCAA is still less than the 160 calories you'd have to ingest of whey protein to ingest an equivalent amount of BCAAs from it.

By the same principle taking BCAAs will mean you are no longer in a fasted state.

I neither agree nor disagree with fasted training. I think everyone should do what is best for their individual needs. I do in fact train fasted.

Yeah it's less calories but whey would have a better mix of EAAs....

 

[germaine91]

BCAAs are an important part of fasted training....as it allows the benefit of protein synthesis without the effect on spiking insulin levels (breaking the fast) unlike taking in food sources. BCAAs are also more readily available to the body when ingested pre, intra, and post training because they do need to be broken down to be utilized by the body.

Also, to say there is no benefit to fasted training is ridiculous. Its benefits are widely known and researched (especially fasted cardio)

1. BCAAs are not an important part of fasted training. Protein takes anywhere up to 72hours in some cases to be fully digested.

2. BCAAs will spike insulin as they are incredibly insulinogenic. I've said already, if you want to increase performance without breaking fast, powdered carbohydrates have been shown to be much better than BCAAs in fasted individuals.

3. What benefit do you speak of? Please don't tell me you're talking about that 'fat burning mode'......

But a control group of normal subjects consuming normal diets, can not be assumed to be protein deficient diets without any evidence to that.

Of course they can seeing as the RDA for protein is 0.8g/kg and resistance trained athletes require more than 'normal' amounts of protein.

The conclusion of course is that excess intake of BCAA's is beneficial during exercise, above and beyond what is consumed for normal protein requirements

Normal protein requirements? The RDA of protein is 0.8g/kg. I hardly think that is sufficient protein for resistance trained athletes. You're going to have to pull a more relevant study in which protein intake is monitored in both groups with a minimum range of 1.8g/kg.

 

[Aplopez8]

I had fun reading this argument ...

 

[germaine91]

I had fun reading this argument ...

Think of it more as a discussion

On a serious note, supping BCAA on top of a diet containing ample amounts of protein is mainly based on hearsay, hype, hope...and placebo love. Not scientific evidence.

 

[germaine91]

Another thing, buying whey (which is 25% BCAA) would be better than isolated BCAA. This is because for the same amount of BCAA per serving, whey also contains the rest of the EAAs, plus other beneficial biofractions such as lactoferrin, immunoglobulins, lactoperoxidase, glycomacropeptide, and bovine serum albumin. All of these goodies are missing from isolated BCAA supps. Whey is like BCAA-Plus. Why buy only part of the spectrum of benefits when you can get the whole thing for the same price or less?

Furthermore, isolated BCAA has been used to stimulate appetite in anorexic patients. Appetite stimulation is not what you want on a cut. Whey, on the other hand, has a well-established hunger-suppressive effect.

All of this is scientifically verifiable, but you have the free will to choose to listen to the hyped parroting of supp reps, & the world will continue to turn. And like I said, if you have a high degree of expectation bias going in, that alone will aid in the placebo effect, so you'll still benefit (albeit with a few more striations in your wallet).

 

[notjake11]

Dont waste your time discussimg the topic (or any for that matter) with this guy. He ignores facts that dont support his argument, openly admits to makung assumptions about studies, and alters the rules/settings to suit his purpose.

Despite never having run a cycle, he is giving advice in another thread telling someone how to eat after cycle/pct, telling the OP to ignore the advice of someone who has run far more cycles than any of us.


Sent from my Desire HD using EliteFitness

 

[germaine91]

Dont waste your time discussimg the topic (or any for that matter) with this guy. He ignores facts that dont support his argument, openly admits to makung assumptions about studies, and alters the rules/settings to suit his purpose.

Despite never having run a cycle, he is giving advice in another thread telling someone how to eat after cycle/pct, telling the OP to ignore the advice of someone who has run far more cycles than any of us.


Sent from my Desire HD using EliteFitness

I didn't ignore any facts, nor alter any 'rules'. Now you're just lying. You don't like hearing the truth.


And with regards the other topic. Do you realise how greatly macronutrient values can vary depending on caloric intake when you base it on percentages? Say you say 40% protein for a 200lb male on a 2,000kcal. That is 200g protein. That's fine. But realistically a 200lb male bulking will be consuming over 4,000kcal a lot of the time. 40% of 4,000kcal is 400g protein. Totally unnecessary.

Same goes for fat. 20% fat of 2,000kcal is only 44.5g fat. For a 200lb male this is unhealthy.

And with regards your fasted training, You're wrong from the get-go. "Truly fasted" = training with zero elevations in circulating substrates via exogenous means. You're making the claim that FFBCAA preworkout constitutes fasted training, yet whey preworkout does not? Both tactics elevate blood aminos & insulin. Thus, your path of reasoning is flawed

 

[RickRock13]

1. BCAAs are not an important part of fasted training. Protein takes anywhere up to 72hours in some cases to be fully digested.

2. BCAAs will spike insulin as they are incredibly insulinogenic. I've said already, if you want to increase performance without breaking fast, powdered carbohydrates have been shown to be much better than BCAAs in fasted individuals.

3. What benefit do you speak of? Please don't tell me you're talking about that 'fat burning mode'......



Of course they can seeing as the RDA for protein is 0.8g/kg and resistance trained athletes require more than 'normal' amounts of protein.




Normal protein requirements? The RDA of protein is 0.8g/kg. I hardly think that is sufficient protein for resistance trained athletes. You're going to have to pull a more relevant study in which protein intake is monitored in both groups with a minimum range of 1.8g/kg.

Show me the studies of how powdered carbohydrates are more beneficial to supplement during a fast vs BCAAs. That is the first time ever heard that, and frankly sounds like broscience to me. Carbohydrates will spike insulin big time and leave them elevated where BCAAs have a very small impact on insulin levels on both time and severity.

Everything you claim goes against lots of research and advocates of intermittent fasting and BCAA supplementation from people like Martin Berkhan.

I'm on my phone now, but later I would be happy to give you plenty of information that disputes everything you claim. But you can go to www.leangains.com for a start. He has a lot of links to studies at his site

 

[Headholio]

Think of it more as a discussion

On a serious note, supping BCAA on top of a diet containing ample amounts of protein is mainly based on hearsay, hype, hope...and placebo love. Not scientific evidence.

Stubborn, aren't you?


I have to pull more relevant studies when you have provided none to back up your claims?

Interesting discussion though. I don't think I've ever been in a position of having to defend scientific evidence against hypothetical or imaginary criticism.

What I have posted:

- Several references to credible studies showing the benefit of BCAA supplementation.

- A jounal article that does a good job explaining the mechanism behind the benefit, and the metabolic pathways that provide the logic for excess BCAA supplementation.

What you have posted:

- That BCAA supplementation is only effective in protein deficient subjects - with no references or evidence to back this up.

- That the studies I posted are flawed because protein intake of the subjects was inadequate, with no evidence that this is true and no knowledge of those studies or what was required for those specific subjects.

Talk about hearsay, hype and hope man, it sounds like you are talking about your own position unless you've got something substantial you haven't shared yet.