Do you count BCAAs towards your calories/protein?

[germaine91]

For example, wouldn't you say that supplementing with Arginine is different than eating a complete protein with the same arginine content?

In terms of body composition and MPS, no.

Here's a good full text article

Exercise Promotes BCAA Catabolism: Effects of BCAA Supplementation on Skeletal Muscle during Exercise

It is clear that exercise promotes degradation of BCAAs. Promotion of fatty acid oxidation appears to be associated with greater rates of BCAA oxidation, which suggests that fatty acids may be regulators of BCAA oxidation. Furthermore, muscle-protein synthesis is enhanced after exercise. From these findings, it may be concluded that the BCAA requirement is increased by exercise.

This doesn't prove that supplementing BCAAs to a diet already sufficient in protein is beneficial.....

 

[Headholio]

In terms of body composition and MPS, no.

Right. Consumed in excess, it has an effect separate from being a protein building block. It promotes NO induced vasodilation.
Likewise, BCAA's in excess, also have effects separate from being protein building blocks, to be an energy source in muscle, promote muscle synthesis, and increase fatty acid oxidation.

It is clear that exercise promotes degradation of BCAAs. Promotion of fatty acid oxidation appears to be associated with greater rates of BCAA oxidation, which suggests that fatty acids may be regulators of BCAA oxidation. Furthermore, muscle-protein synthesis is enhanced after exercise. From these findings, it may be concluded that the BCAA requirement is increased by exercise.

This doesn't prove that supplementing BCAAs to a diet already sufficient in protein is beneficial.....

I think I know what you are saying. Is BCAA supplementation going to do anything different than consuming protein that has the same amount of BCAA's?

I think the answer is yes. The body detects excess BCAA availability. If the body oxidizes BCAA's in muscle, there would be less available for protein synthesis. It would therefore have a lower metabolic priority.
From the article I posted:

Because animal and human cells have a tightly controlled enzymatic system for BCAA degradation, BCAAs that are ingested in excess are quickly disposed of (2).

Effects of BCAA supplementation can not be duplicated with simple protein ingestion. The ratio of the amino acids present affects the metabolism and how those AA's are utilized.

 

[notjake11]

You do realise that food contains BCAAs? Why would 5g of 3 amino acids from pills trump a food, eg whey, that contains 20g mixed AA (which includes 5g BCAA + another 5g of the rest of the EAA if we're talking about whey).

And you do realize that people who train fasted (meaning 16 hours of fasting before they lift) haven't eaten any food? You would have to intake 40g of whey protein (160 calories) to get 10g of bcaas prior to your workout. That level of caloric intake would provoke a much larger insulin response, thereby defeating the purpose and losing the benefits of training fasted.

By taking 10g of BCAA, I am only intaking 40 calories - 25% of the total I would if I was using whey protein. The insulin response to a meal less than 50 calories is negligible and won't deprive the individual of the benefits of the fasted state.

 

[germaine91]

I think I know what you are saying. Is BCAA supplementation going to do anything different than consuming protein that has the same amount of BCAA's?

I think the answer is yes. The body detects excess BCAA availability. If the body oxidizes BCAA's in muscle, there would be less available for protein synthesis. It would therefore have a lower metabolic priority.

I'm fairly confident the answer is no and I have brought this up with the CEO of Scivation and even then, the only use for BCAAs to him was people who did not eat enough EAAs in their diet.

You won't find any relevant study in which both groups consumed at least ~1g/lb protein and the group supplementing with BCAAs gained more LBM or had any better improvement in body composition.

And you do realize that people who train fasted (meaning 16 hours of fasting before they lift) haven't eaten any food? You would have to intake 40g of whey protein (160 calories) to get 10g of bcaas prior to your workout. That level of caloric intake would provoke a much larger insulin response, thereby defeating the purpose and losing the benefits of training fasted.

By taking 10g of BCAA, I am only intaking 40 calories - 25% of the total I would if I was using whey protein. The insulin response to a meal less than 50 calories is negligible and won't deprive the individual of the benefits of the fasted state.

First, 10g of BCAAs is 60 calories. not 40.

Second, why does it matter if you take BCAAs before training or not?....

 

[notjake11]

The studies you two discussed above show that supplementing with BCAAs is beneficial to someone training with a lower protein intake. Someone who has fasted for 16 hours has not had much protein. Therefore, supplementing with BCAAs is beneficial to someone training in a fasted state. And because the calorie intake is so much less than an equivalent amount of whole protein/whey/food, they can do so without sacrificing the benefits of training in a fasted state.

 

[germaine91]

The studies you two discussed above show that supplementing with BCAAs is beneficial to someone training with a lower protein intake. Someone who has fasted for 16 hours has not had much protein. Therefore, supplementing with BCAAs is beneficial to someone training in a fasted state. And because the calorie intake is so much less than an equivalent amount of whole protein/whey/food, they can do so without sacrificing the benefits of training in a fasted state.

1. Someone fasted for 16 hours does not mean they have low protein intake.

2. Leucine, taken fasted pre workout, has been shown to help in performance, but powdered simple carbohydrate works a lot better.

3. BCAAs are 6 calories per gram. not 4.

4. The only real benefit of training fasted is you may respond better personally.

 

[notjake11]

If you take in carbs, you are no longer fasted. Get that through your skull. Whether you agree with fasted training or not doesn't change the fact that it's what Rick and I were both referring to as the reason/circumstances we use BCAAs. Saying "this will work better than BCAAs" doesn't do any good if it means you are taking away and changing the circumstances. And there are plenty of proven benefits to training fasted - quite a few people on the thread here and throughout the lifting world have written on the subject.

And 60 calories for 10g of BCAA is still less than the 160 calories you'd have to ingest of whey protein to ingest an equivalent amount of BCAAs from it.

 

[Headholio]

You won't find any relevant study in which both groups consumed at least ~1g/lb protein and the group supplementing with BCAAs gained more LBM or had any better improvement in body composition.

You keep asserting that BCAA supplementation has no benefit except in cases of a protein deficient diet, yet you have provided zero evidence for this.

It would be nice to have full studies instead of abstracts, as they would probably go into detail about the control group diets. But a control group of normal subjects consuming normal diets, can not be assumed to be protein deficient diets without any evidence to that. It wouldn't make sense to carry on a study like that unless specifically to examine protein deficient diets, in whach case it would be stated.

Here is a study for you, showing that BCAA supplementation decreases exercise induced muscle damage. In the abstract, they clearly state that the all subjects (including in the control group), consumed the recommended daily intake of BCAA's.

Effects of branched-chain amino ac... [J Sports Med Phys Fitness. 2000] - PubMed - NCBI

The conclusion of course is that excess intake of BCAA's is beneficial during exercise, above and beyond what is consumed for normal protein requirements.

The article I posted earlier makes it clear. Catabolism of BCAA's that leads to energy production and protein synthesis are completely different pathways from BCAA incorporation into muscle protein. BCAA oxidation is increased by exercise and is regulated by the amount of BCAA available.

 

[Headholio]

The studies you two discussed above show that supplementing with BCAAs is beneficial to someone training with a lower protein intake.

None of the studies posted say anything about lower protein intake.

 

[Headholio]

If you take in carbs, you are no longer fasted. Get that through your skull. Whether you agree with fasted training or not doesn't change the fact that it's what Rick and I were both referring to as the reason/circumstances we use BCAAs. Saying "this will work better than BCAAs" doesn't do any good if it means you are taking away and changing the circumstances. And there are plenty of proven benefits to training fasted - quite a few people on the thread here and throughout the lifting world have written on the subject.

And 60 calories for 10g of BCAA is still less than the 160 calories you'd have to ingest of whey protein to ingest an equivalent amount of BCAAs from it.

Makes sense.