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Do you count BCAAs towards your calories/protein?

Do you count BCAAs towards your calories/protein?

  • Yes

    Votes: 5 55.6%

  • No

    Votes: 4 44.4%
  • Total voters
    9
chewyxrage

chewyxrage

New member
Thread title says it all. I personally do count the 30g of BCAAs I drink during the first half of the day towards my calories and protein. Curious about the rest of you.

Why or why not? The FDA doesn't consider them calories for nutritional labeling purposes.
 
BCAAs have about 6 calories per gram, so yes count them.

Also, why are you supplementing with them? Are you deficient in protein? If so, why not supplement with a protein powder or just eat more protein?
 
My understanding is that the FDA doesn't require counting them on labels because they are not considered macronutrients (individual aminos rather than protein). That doesn't mean they don't have calories or that they don't count as protein in your body. So I would count them.
 
germaine91 said:
BCAAs have about 6 calories per gram, so yes count them.

Also, why are you supplementing with them? Are you deficient in protein? If so, why not supplement with a protein powder or just eat more protein?
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Because they have been shown to be beneficial for those who are strenuously exercising/lifting in terms of minimizing catabolism and maximizing recovery/healing. They are also particularly good at helping in those areas for people who train fasted (intermittent fasting for example).
 
notjake11 said:
Because they have been shown to be beneficial for those who are strenuously exercising/lifting in terms of minimizing catabolism and maximizing recovery/healing. They are also particularly good at helping in those areas for people who train fasted (intermittent fasting for example).
Click to expand...

This is exactly how and why I use them. I train fasted daily as part of IF, and BCAAs are an important part of my supplement regiment
 
notjake11 said:
Because they have been shown to be beneficial for those who are strenuously exercising/lifting in terms of minimizing catabolism and maximizing recovery/healing. They are also particularly good at helping in those areas for people who train fasted (intermittent fasting for example).
Click to expand...

You might want to look at the research again because BCAAs have only been shown to be effective if the person's diet is deficient in protein, in which case they should up their protein, not waste money on BCAAs.

I train fasted. Powdered forms of Carbohydrate have been shown to have a greater increase in training performance than BCAAs in fasted people.
 
I will provide you with what research has to say about BCAA's:

Essential amino acid and carbohydrate ingestion prior to resistance exercise does not enhance post-exercise muscle protein synthesis. Fujita S, et al. J Appl Physiology. 2008 June 5.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1...ubmed_RVDocSum

In the second study posted, BCAA + high protein diet performed better, however not without significant confounders. The experimental group receiving the BCAA's received 3x protein overall than the control group. So to say that the BCAA group performed better was simply a matter of adequate vs. inadequate intake considering the control group didn't even receive the RDA recommendation. Therefore, this was a faulty trial in BCAA's favor.

The non-BCAA group actually performed better on the hand grip & vertical jump component's of the study although not statistically significant.

A protein rich diet is full of BCAA's. Layne Norton at a ISSN conference presented that 3-4g Leucine may be optimal for providing maximum protein synthesis. This can be obtained through 1.5-2 scoops Whey, 6-8 oz animal protein, 1.5 cups cottage cheese, etc. See the trend?

One way to take BCAA's is between meals because of the refractory response of muscle protein synthesis based off of these two studies which are plagued with cofounders:

Latency and duration of stimulation of human muscl... [J Physiol. 2001] - PubMed - NCBI

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/en...ubmed_RVDocSum

The second study had a control group take 64g P per day while the experimental group consumed 109g P per day with the BCAA. Again, we have a comparison of not BCAA vs whole food protein diet, but rather another plagued example of adequate vs. inadequate intake. So of course the study is in favor of BCAA's.

These claims to take amino's between meals are based off a protein stat hypothesis. All research of which is short & acute in nature.

Whey causes greater satiety than amino's which have been shown in clinical studies to potentially stimulate appetite. This is not good for one in strict dieting conditions. Not to mention whey has beneficial compounds that are missing from BCAA's (lactoferrin, immunoglobins, etc).

I would go ahead & list the amount of BCAA's listed in protein rich foods, but I hope one understands that they will receive an adequate amount of BCAA's if they consume an adequate amount of protein.
 
germaine91 said:
Where does it mention the protein intake? ^^^
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It doesn't. Therefore, it would be logical to conclude that protein deficiency is not a criteria in the validity of the results.

The study shows a benefit of BCAA's. Don't disregard it because it goes against your previous belief.
 
germaine91 said:
Essential amino acid and carbohydrate ingestion prior to resistance exercise does not enhance post-exercise muscle protein synthesis. Fujita S, et al. J Appl Physiology. 2008 June 5.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1...ubmed_RVDocSum


Your link doesn't work. Here is a good link for that study:
Regulation of Protein Metabolism in Exercise and Recovery: Essential amino acid and carbohydrate ingestion before resistance exercise does not enhance postexercise muscle protein synthesis

It isn't even a study about BCAA's. Essential AA's are not the same as BCAA's.
Click to expand...
 
Headholio said:
It doesn't. Therefore, it would be logical to conclude that protein deficiency is not a criteria in the validity of the results.

The study shows a benefit of BCAA's. Don't disregard it because it goes against your previous belief.
Click to expand...

How is protein deficiency not a criteria? BCAAs are proteins.... Did you read my previous post?

Here's a quote from Alan Aragon:

"This is the so-called "protein stat hypothesis". Note the word hypothesis. In a nutshell, sustained blood amino acid elevations run into a refractory point, where muscle protein synthesis decreases despite the sustained elevation in AAs (& even despite mTOR activation). So, the hypothesis applied within the context of our discussion is that causing quick, marked increases & subsequent rapid drops in extracellular amino acid levels (via dosing free-form AAs) might be able to circumvent this refractory response seen in sustained AA levels.

Sounds good, right? BUT. This is still a hypothesis that's based on acute (immediate-effect, not long-term) and infusion (intravenous) data. We're looking at circumstantial bits & pieces, not a complete picture. This research did not measure effects on size, strength, or muscle retention over the long term. At best, this data is hypothesis-generating, and far from conclusive. Also keep in mind that the literature cited (Bohe et al, 2003) has some fricking hilarious stuff in its conclusion. I'll quote them:

"it appears that only modest amounts of dietary amino acids would be needed to achieve maximal stimulation of the muscle anabolic processes (i.e. for adults of average weight, 55-75 kg, 0.260 mg kg/hr x 2 hr, or of the order of 30-40 g of protein). This is probably somewhat lower than the current FAO/WHO/UNU recommendation of 0.8 g kg/day and much lower than that of 1.2 g kg/day proposed by some workers for the elderly (Campbell et al. 2001)."

The Paddon-Jones study is another commonly cited tidbit by those hanging on to the hope that free-form AA dosing between meals is The Ticket. BUT. The problem is - other than the trial's short-term nature - the treatment imbalance crucially confounds the applicability of the results. The supplemented group ended up with a total of 45g EAA and 90g CHO above and beyond the control group. Does it really surprise you that this group showed greater protein synthesis? Another design flaw that everyone who cites this study misses is that the non-supplemented control group's protein intake totalled 64g for the day, while the supplemented group averaged 109g. It not only was a matter of treatment imbalance, but it essentially became a comparison of insufficient protein intake versus barely adequate intake, even by sedentary standards. Bottom line: you are hinging your beliefs on an optimistic hypothesis that's marketed as Almighty Proven Fact by the supp companies.
 
You do realise that food contains BCAAs? Why would 5g of 3 amino acids from pills trump a food, eg whey, that contains 20g mixed AA (which includes 5g BCAA + another 5g of the rest of the EAA if we're talking about whey).
 
germaine91 said:
You do realise that food contains BCAAs? Why would 5g of 3 amino acids from pills trump a food, eg whey, that contains 20g mixed AA (which includes 5g BCAA + another 5g of the rest of the EAA if we're talking about whey).
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Yes of course. But different AA's can do different things by supplementing individually. For example, wouldn't you say that supplementing with Arginine is different than eating a complete protein with the same arginine content?

So, the question is, does the scientific data confirm that BCAA supplementation provides beneficial effects different from equivalent protein ingestion?
 
Headholio said:
For example, wouldn't you say that supplementing with Arginine is different than eating a complete protein with the same arginine content?
Click to expand...

In terms of body composition and MPS, no.


Headholio said:
Here's a good full text article

Exercise Promotes BCAA Catabolism: Effects of BCAA Supplementation on Skeletal Muscle during Exercise
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It is clear that exercise promotes degradation of BCAAs. Promotion of fatty acid oxidation appears to be associated with greater rates of BCAA oxidation, which suggests that fatty acids may be regulators of BCAA oxidation. Furthermore, muscle-protein synthesis is enhanced after exercise. From these findings, it may be concluded that the BCAA requirement is increased by exercise.

This doesn't prove that supplementing BCAAs to a diet already sufficient in protein is beneficial.....
 
germaine91 said:
In terms of body composition and MPS, no.
Click to expand...

Right. Consumed in excess, it has an effect separate from being a protein building block. It promotes NO induced vasodilation.
Likewise, BCAA's in excess, also have effects separate from being protein building blocks, to be an energy source in muscle, promote muscle synthesis, and increase fatty acid oxidation.



It is clear that exercise promotes degradation of BCAAs. Promotion of fatty acid oxidation appears to be associated with greater rates of BCAA oxidation, which suggests that fatty acids may be regulators of BCAA oxidation. Furthermore, muscle-protein synthesis is enhanced after exercise. From these findings, it may be concluded that the BCAA requirement is increased by exercise.
Click to expand...
This doesn't prove that supplementing BCAAs to a diet already sufficient in protein is beneficial.....
Click to expand...

I think I know what you are saying. Is BCAA supplementation going to do anything different than consuming protein that has the same amount of BCAA's?

I think the answer is yes. The body detects excess BCAA availability. If the body oxidizes BCAA's in muscle, there would be less available for protein synthesis. It would therefore have a lower metabolic priority.
From the article I posted:

Because animal and human cells have a tightly controlled enzymatic system for BCAA degradation, BCAAs that are ingested in excess are quickly disposed of (2).
Click to expand...

Effects of BCAA supplementation can not be duplicated with simple protein ingestion. The ratio of the amino acids present affects the metabolism and how those AA's are utilized.
 
germaine91 said:
You do realise that food contains BCAAs? Why would 5g of 3 amino acids from pills trump a food, eg whey, that contains 20g mixed AA (which includes 5g BCAA + another 5g of the rest of the EAA if we're talking about whey).
Click to expand...

And you do realize that people who train fasted (meaning 16 hours of fasting before they lift) haven't eaten any food? You would have to intake 40g of whey protein (160 calories) to get 10g of bcaas prior to your workout. That level of caloric intake would provoke a much larger insulin response, thereby defeating the purpose and losing the benefits of training fasted.

By taking 10g of BCAA, I am only intaking 40 calories - 25% of the total I would if I was using whey protein. The insulin response to a meal less than 50 calories is negligible and won't deprive the individual of the benefits of the fasted state.
 
Headholio said:
I think I know what you are saying. Is BCAA supplementation going to do anything different than consuming protein that has the same amount of BCAA's?

I think the answer is yes. The body detects excess BCAA availability. If the body oxidizes BCAA's in muscle, there would be less available for protein synthesis. It would therefore have a lower metabolic priority.
Click to expand...

I'm fairly confident the answer is no and I have brought this up with the CEO of Scivation and even then, the only use for BCAAs to him was people who did not eat enough EAAs in their diet.

You won't find any relevant study in which both groups consumed at least ~1g/lb protein and the group supplementing with BCAAs gained more LBM or had any better improvement in body composition.

notjake11 said:
And you do realize that people who train fasted (meaning 16 hours of fasting before they lift) haven't eaten any food? You would have to intake 40g of whey protein (160 calories) to get 10g of bcaas prior to your workout. That level of caloric intake would provoke a much larger insulin response, thereby defeating the purpose and losing the benefits of training fasted.

By taking 10g of BCAA, I am only intaking 40 calories - 25% of the total I would if I was using whey protein. The insulin response to a meal less than 50 calories is negligible and won't deprive the individual of the benefits of the fasted state.
Click to expand...

First, 10g of BCAAs is 60 calories. not 40.

Second, why does it matter if you take BCAAs before training or not?....
 
The studies you two discussed above show that supplementing with BCAAs is beneficial to someone training with a lower protein intake. Someone who has fasted for 16 hours has not had much protein. Therefore, supplementing with BCAAs is beneficial to someone training in a fasted state. And because the calorie intake is so much less than an equivalent amount of whole protein/whey/food, they can do so without sacrificing the benefits of training in a fasted state.
 
notjake11 said:
The studies you two discussed above show that supplementing with BCAAs is beneficial to someone training with a lower protein intake. Someone who has fasted for 16 hours has not had much protein. Therefore, supplementing with BCAAs is beneficial to someone training in a fasted state. And because the calorie intake is so much less than an equivalent amount of whole protein/whey/food, they can do so without sacrificing the benefits of training in a fasted state.
Click to expand...

1. Someone fasted for 16 hours does not mean they have low protein intake.

2. Leucine, taken fasted pre workout, has been shown to help in performance, but powdered simple carbohydrate works a lot better.

3. BCAAs are 6 calories per gram. not 4.

4. The only real benefit of training fasted is you may respond better personally.
 
If you take in carbs, you are no longer fasted. Get that through your skull. Whether you agree with fasted training or not doesn't change the fact that it's what Rick and I were both referring to as the reason/circumstances we use BCAAs. Saying "this will work better than BCAAs" doesn't do any good if it means you are taking away and changing the circumstances. And there are plenty of proven benefits to training fasted - quite a few people on the thread here and throughout the lifting world have written on the subject.

And 60 calories for 10g of BCAA is still less than the 160 calories you'd have to ingest of whey protein to ingest an equivalent amount of BCAAs from it.
 
germaine91 said:
You won't find any relevant study in which both groups consumed at least ~1g/lb protein and the group supplementing with BCAAs gained more LBM or had any better improvement in body composition.
Click to expand...

You keep asserting that BCAA supplementation has no benefit except in cases of a protein deficient diet, yet you have provided zero evidence for this.

It would be nice to have full studies instead of abstracts, as they would probably go into detail about the control group diets. But a control group of normal subjects consuming normal diets, can not be assumed to be protein deficient diets without any evidence to that. It wouldn't make sense to carry on a study like that unless specifically to examine protein deficient diets, in whach case it would be stated.

Here is a study for you, showing that BCAA supplementation decreases exercise induced muscle damage. In the abstract, they clearly state that the all subjects (including in the control group), consumed the recommended daily intake of BCAA's.

Effects of branched-chain amino ac... [J Sports Med Phys Fitness. 2000] - PubMed - NCBI

The conclusion of course is that excess intake of BCAA's is beneficial during exercise, above and beyond what is consumed for normal protein requirements.

The article I posted earlier makes it clear. Catabolism of BCAA's that leads to energy production and protein synthesis are completely different pathways from BCAA incorporation into muscle protein. BCAA oxidation is increased by exercise and is regulated by the amount of BCAA available.
 
notjake11 said:
If you take in carbs, you are no longer fasted. Get that through your skull. Whether you agree with fasted training or not doesn't change the fact that it's what Rick and I were both referring to as the reason/circumstances we use BCAAs. Saying "this will work better than BCAAs" doesn't do any good if it means you are taking away and changing the circumstances. And there are plenty of proven benefits to training fasted - quite a few people on the thread here and throughout the lifting world have written on the subject.

And 60 calories for 10g of BCAA is still less than the 160 calories you'd have to ingest of whey protein to ingest an equivalent amount of BCAAs from it.
Click to expand...

Makes sense.
 
BCAAs are an important part of fasted training....as it allows the benefit of protein synthesis without the effect on spiking insulin levels (breaking the fast) unlike taking in food sources. BCAAs are also more readily available to the body when ingested pre, intra, and post training because they do need to be broken down to be utilized by the body.

Also, to say there is no benefit to fasted training is ridiculous. Its benefits are widely known and researched (especially fasted cardio)
 
notjake11 said:
If you take in carbs, you are no longer fasted. Get that through your skull. Whether you agree with fasted training or not doesn't change the fact that it's what Rick and I were both referring to as the reason/circumstances we use BCAAs. Saying "this will work better than BCAAs" doesn't do any good if it means you are taking away and changing the circumstances. And there are plenty of proven benefits to training fasted - quite a few people on the thread here and throughout the lifting world have written on the subject.

And 60 calories for 10g of BCAA is still less than the 160 calories you'd have to ingest of whey protein to ingest an equivalent amount of BCAAs from it.
Click to expand...

By the same principle taking BCAAs will mean you are no longer in a fasted state.

I neither agree nor disagree with fasted training. I think everyone should do what is best for their individual needs. I do in fact train fasted.

Yeah it's less calories but whey would have a better mix of EAAs....
 
RickRock13 said:
BCAAs are an important part of fasted training....as it allows the benefit of protein synthesis without the effect on spiking insulin levels (breaking the fast) unlike taking in food sources. BCAAs are also more readily available to the body when ingested pre, intra, and post training because they do need to be broken down to be utilized by the body.

Also, to say there is no benefit to fasted training is ridiculous. Its benefits are widely known and researched (especially fasted cardio)
Click to expand...

1. BCAAs are not an important part of fasted training. Protein takes anywhere up to 72hours in some cases to be fully digested.

2. BCAAs will spike insulin as they are incredibly insulinogenic. I've said already, if you want to increase performance without breaking fast, powdered carbohydrates have been shown to be much better than BCAAs in fasted individuals.

3. What benefit do you speak of? Please don't tell me you're talking about that 'fat burning mode'......

Headholio said:
But a control group of normal subjects consuming normal diets, can not be assumed to be protein deficient diets without any evidence to that.
Click to expand...

Of course they can seeing as the RDA for protein is 0.8g/kg and resistance trained athletes require more than 'normal' amounts of protein.


Headholio said:
The conclusion of course is that excess intake of BCAA's is beneficial during exercise, above and beyond what is consumed for normal protein requirements
Click to expand...

Normal protein requirements? The RDA of protein is 0.8g/kg. I hardly think that is sufficient protein for resistance trained athletes. You're going to have to pull a more relevant study in which protein intake is monitored in both groups with a minimum range of 1.8g/kg.
 
Another thing, buying whey (which is 25% BCAA) would be better than isolated BCAA. This is because for the same amount of BCAA per serving, whey also contains the rest of the EAAs, plus other beneficial biofractions such as lactoferrin, immunoglobulins, lactoperoxidase, glycomacropeptide, and bovine serum albumin. All of these goodies are missing from isolated BCAA supps. Whey is like BCAA-Plus. Why buy only part of the spectrum of benefits when you can get the whole thing for the same price or less?

Furthermore, isolated BCAA has been used to stimulate appetite in anorexic patients. Appetite stimulation is not what you want on a cut. Whey, on the other hand, has a well-established hunger-suppressive effect.

All of this is scientifically verifiable, but you have the free will to choose to listen to the hyped parroting of supp reps, & the world will continue to turn. And like I said, if you have a high degree of expectation bias going in, that alone will aid in the placebo effect, so you'll still benefit (albeit with a few more striations in your wallet).
 
Dont waste your time discussimg the topic (or any for that matter) with this guy. He ignores facts that dont support his argument, openly admits to makung assumptions about studies, and alters the rules/settings to suit his purpose.

Despite never having run a cycle, he is giving advice in another thread telling someone how to eat after cycle/pct, telling the OP to ignore the advice of someone who has run far more cycles than any of us.


Sent from my Desire HD using EliteFitness
 
notjake11 said:
Dont waste your time discussimg the topic (or any for that matter) with this guy. He ignores facts that dont support his argument, openly admits to makung assumptions about studies, and alters the rules/settings to suit his purpose.

Despite never having run a cycle, he is giving advice in another thread telling someone how to eat after cycle/pct, telling the OP to ignore the advice of someone who has run far more cycles than any of us.


Sent from my Desire HD using EliteFitness
Click to expand...

I didn't ignore any facts, nor alter any 'rules'. Now you're just lying. You don't like hearing the truth.


And with regards the other topic. Do you realise how greatly macronutrient values can vary depending on caloric intake when you base it on percentages? Say you say 40% protein for a 200lb male on a 2,000kcal. That is 200g protein. That's fine. But realistically a 200lb male bulking will be consuming over 4,000kcal a lot of the time. 40% of 4,000kcal is 400g protein. Totally unnecessary.

Same goes for fat. 20% fat of 2,000kcal is only 44.5g fat. For a 200lb male this is unhealthy.

And with regards your fasted training, You're wrong from the get-go. "Truly fasted" = training with zero elevations in circulating substrates via exogenous means. You're making the claim that FFBCAA preworkout constitutes fasted training, yet whey preworkout does not? Both tactics elevate blood aminos & insulin. Thus, your path of reasoning is flawed
 
germaine91 said:
1. BCAAs are not an important part of fasted training. Protein takes anywhere up to 72hours in some cases to be fully digested.

2. BCAAs will spike insulin as they are incredibly insulinogenic. I've said already, if you want to increase performance without breaking fast, powdered carbohydrates have been shown to be much better than BCAAs in fasted individuals.

3. What benefit do you speak of? Please don't tell me you're talking about that 'fat burning mode'......



Of course they can seeing as the RDA for protein is 0.8g/kg and resistance trained athletes require more than 'normal' amounts of protein.




Normal protein requirements? The RDA of protein is 0.8g/kg. I hardly think that is sufficient protein for resistance trained athletes. You're going to have to pull a more relevant study in which protein intake is monitored in both groups with a minimum range of 1.8g/kg.
Click to expand...

Show me the studies of how powdered carbohydrates are more beneficial to supplement during a fast vs BCAAs. That is the first time ever heard that, and frankly sounds like broscience to me. Carbohydrates will spike insulin big time and leave them elevated where BCAAs have a very small impact on insulin levels on both time and severity.

Everything you claim goes against lots of research and advocates of intermittent fasting and BCAA supplementation from people like Martin Berkhan.

I'm on my phone now, but later I would be happy to give you plenty of information that disputes everything you claim. But you can go to www.leangains.com for a start. He has a lot of links to studies at his site
 
germaine91 said:
Think of it more as a discussion :)

On a serious note, supping BCAA on top of a diet containing ample amounts of protein is mainly based on hearsay, hype, hope...and placebo love. Not scientific evidence.
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Stubborn, aren't you?
:)

I have to pull more relevant studies when you have provided none to back up your claims?

Interesting discussion though. I don't think I've ever been in a position of having to defend scientific evidence against hypothetical or imaginary criticism.

What I have posted:

- Several references to credible studies showing the benefit of BCAA supplementation.

- A jounal article that does a good job explaining the mechanism behind the benefit, and the metabolic pathways that provide the logic for excess BCAA supplementation.

What you have posted:

- That BCAA supplementation is only effective in protein deficient subjects - with no references or evidence to back this up.

- That the studies I posted are flawed because protein intake of the subjects was inadequate, with no evidence that this is true and no knowledge of those studies or what was required for those specific subjects.

Talk about hearsay, hype and hope man, it sounds like you are talking about your own position unless you've got something substantial you haven't shared yet.
 
Man, you're having a flat out argument with guys who've made it a lifetime passion to study supplementation, not to mention being just plain wrong. Broscience doesn't cut it here, we actually back our facts up with known scientific studies of respected researchers.

Have you ever been on an IF diet?
 
RickRock13 said:
Show me the studies of how powdered carbohydrates are more beneficial to supplement during a fast vs BCAAs. That is the first time ever heard that, and frankly sounds like broscience to me. Carbohydrates will spike insulin big time and leave them elevated where BCAAs have a very small impact on insulin levels on both time and severity.
Click to expand...

I'll look for the study for you but I don't think it was comparing the two directly. Anyway, BCAAs also spike insulin big time to so your assertion is wrong.

RickRock13 said:
Everything you claim goes against lots of research and advocates of intermittent fasting and BCAA supplementation from people like Martin Berkhan.

I'm on my phone now, but later I would be happy to give you plenty of information that disputes everything you claim. But you can go to Intermittent fasting diet for fat loss, muscle gain and health for a start. He has a lot of links to studies at his site
Click to expand...

While I think Martin has done great work, especially disproving the whole 6 meals a day, the research on IF is questionable at best as is the need for BCAAs during fasted period. He recommends them as a safeguard, but that's about it. Lyle McDonald has recently been calling out Martin over some of his stuff and even Layne Norton has recently had disagreement with him.

Headholio said:
Interesting discussion though. I don't think I've ever been in a position of having to defend scientific evidence against hypothetical or imaginary criticism.
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It's criticism of the research behind BCAAs. There is nothing to substantiate that adding BCAAs to a diet that already has an abundance of BCAAs will lead to more muscle growth or muscle preservation.

Headholio said:
What I have posted:

- Several references to credible studies showing the benefit of BCAA supplementation.

- A jounal article that does a good job explaining the mechanism behind the benefit, and the metabolic pathways that provide the logic for excess BCAA supplementation.

What you have posted:

- That BCAA supplementation is only effective in protein deficient subjects - with no references or evidence to back this up.

- That the studies I posted are flawed because protein intake of the subjects was inadequate, with no evidence that this is true and no knowledge of those studies or what was required for those specific subjects.

Talk about hearsay, hype and hope man, it sounds like you are talking about your own position unless you've got something substantial you haven't shared yet.
Click to expand...

First, I pointed flaws in your studies which make them invalid.

Second, I did in fact post research in my earlier posts.

With regards BCAAs being beneficial to a protein deficient diet, that's what all the studies 'proving' BCAAs are useful are.

There is no evidence to suggest supplementing BCAAs to a diet already in abundance of BCAAs is useful to muscle growth/preservation. That is the problem.
 
bigbassturd said:
Man, you're having a flat out argument with guys who've made it a lifetime passion to study supplementation, not to mention being just plain wrong. Broscience doesn't cut it here, we actually back our facts up with known scientific studies of respected researchers.

Have you ever been on an IF diet?
Click to expand...

I have tried IF. It's a great tool when cutting. Why do you ask?

Anyway, I'm not talking broscience. In fact, it's quite the opposite. Supplement companies carry out tons of research trying to prove their supplementation works. In this case, there is no research proving that adding BCAAs to a diet already in abundance of BCAAs will have any effect on body composition. Anyone can post studies. What matters is the content of the studies. The studies on BCAAs don't hold up.

Do you know who Alan Aragon is? The person I have directed quoted in this thread.
 
"A. Aragon: No, supplemental BCAA is not necessary unless you’re not consuming enough high quality protein. Bodybuilders get marketed to death about the benefits of free-form BCAA when there’s no objective evidence of their benefit over the pre-existing BCAA within the matrix of real food. People forget that BCAA is abundant in many foods in nature, especially animal proteins. I base all of my beliefs and recommendations on scientific evidence, not subjective placebo and marketing driven testimony. You can be sure that if someone believes (by whatever means it took to convince him) that extra BCAA will work, it will. However, it’s the belief that’s the active agent, not the BCAA.

You can create the same effect by convincing someone that a lucky rabbit’s foot in his right pocket will increase his lifting strength. If the person is truly convinced or even if the person has deeply vested hopes in the product or protocol, it indeed will work. The mind has powerful effects on the body. It always has and always will.

Until I see solid replicated scientific evidence of the benefits of stacking supplemental BCAA on top of a pre-existing high protein intake (as compared to simply increasing total protein), I’m not going to buy into the hype. I’ve even experimented with my athletic clientele and had them ditch supplemental BCAA in favor of an increased protein intake. Not only did I save them a lot of money, but their performance and body composition continues to improve. I know that it’s not a tightly controlled experiment, but it definitely puts me at ease that I’m not missing out on any “magic.”
 
BCAA-enriched protein supplementation had some positive limelight in 1997 (Mourier et al), but they pitted it against a soy protein supp, so the results were pretty predictable. Aside from that & the Scivation-sponsored trial you mentioned, the effect of additional BCAA in long-term trials hasn't panned out in other research (Kerksick et al, 2006), which had no vested interest in the outcomes. The as-yet unpublished Xtend/Stoppani et al study you mentioned has some questionably dramatic outcomes resulting from what amounts to an extra 7g BCAA plus some rather inert/marginally supported compounds. It's far from qualifying as remotely definitive evidence. These outcomes are particularly curious when you consider that this supposedly occurred despite a high protein intake. The whole thing reeks of commercial bias. And of course, here's my fave footage of the lead researcher of the Xtend study:

http://www.muscleandfitness.com/bcaa/videos/81
 
It seems in this thread people are not actually recognising the studies I have in fact referenced, not just linked. I think everyone should read over all of my posts before commenting again because I think you's are missing some elements.
 
germaine91 said:
It seems in this thread people are not actually recognising the studies I have in fact referenced, not just linked. I think everyone should read over all of my posts before commenting again because I think you's are missing some elements.
Click to expand...


Yeah I'm missing something. I'm missing the reference you posted that backs up your assertion that BCAA supplementation is only effective in protein deficient diets. Please point me to it.
 
Headholio said:
Yeah I'm missing something. I'm missing the reference you posted that backs up your assertion that BCAA supplementation is only effective in protein deficient diets. Please point me to it.
Click to expand...

That assertion is based upon the fact that all the studies that show BCAA being effective are in diets of the RDA of protein, which is 0.8g/kg. I've said this numerous times. Until they can duplicate studies where both groups have a controlled protein intake of at least 1.8-2.0g/kg, then the studies don't hold up.
 
germaine91 said:
That assertion is based upon the fact that all the studies that show BCAA being effective are in diets of the RDA of protein, which is 0.8g/kg. I've said this numerous times. Until they can duplicate studies where both groups have a controlled protein intake of at least 1.8-2.0g/kg, then the studies don't hold up.
Click to expand...

That's what you keep saying but you've never shown it, not even once.

The only study that mentioned RDA was the study I posted, which meant at least RDA, and you do not know if the protein intake of the control group was adequate for the study requirements or not. As far as any of the other of dozens of studies on BCAA supplementation, you have never provided any documentation that any of those studies were with control groups of inadequate protein intake.
 
That explains a lot. Reading what people you will never meet have written about something you have no real experience in doesn't make you an expert.

Arguing with guys who have been studying this and testing on themselves for as long as you have been alive is never a smart move. Just saying.
 
bigbassturd said:
That explains a lot. Reading what people you will never meet have written about something you have no real experience in doesn't make you an expert.

Arguing with guys who have been studying this and testing on themselves for as long as you have been alive is never a smart move. Just saying.
Click to expand...

More logical fallacies. Again, making your arguement void. If you don't know what logical fallacies are, google ----->

Headholio said:
That is absolutely hilarious, that as a substitute for evidence, you quoted yourself!

:lmao:
Click to expand...

I quoted myself, because it is a criticial element in this whole discussion. That single sentence, read it carefully.

Headholio said:
As far as any of the other of dozens of studies on BCAA supplementation, you have never provided any documentation that any of those studies were with control groups of inadequate protein intake.
Click to expand...

Because all studies are done on people with 'average' or 'normal' protein intakes. Can you not grasp that?

I'll say it again, because you seem to not be fully grasping it:

There are no relevant studies showing BCAAs are beneficial to improving body composition in a diet already in abundance of BCAAs.

You want me to find a study, to show there are no studies. Strong logic.
 
I'll re-quote Alan Aragon again so:

Bodybuilders get marketed to death about the benefits of free-form BCAA when there’s no objective evidence of their benefit over the pre-existing BCAA within the matrix of real food.

Until I see solid replicated scientific evidence of the benefits of stacking supplemental BCAA on top of a pre-existing high protein intake (as compared to simply increasing total protein), I’m not going to buy into the hype. I’ve even experimented with my athletic clientele and had them ditch supplemental BCAA in favor of an increased protein intake. Not only did I save them a lot of money, but their Performance and body composition continues to improve.
 
All of my responses to the last few posts would get me a temporary ban.

I will say this: I hope that as you age you learn to have a discussion with someone you dont agree with without coming across as a disrespectful ass.

Sent from my Desire HD using EliteFitness
 
Germaine zip it you obviously don't understand why he is asking the question. It is related to intermittent fasting and people who don't break their fast until later in the day.
 
Headholio said:
My understanding is that the FDA doesn't require counting them on labels because they are not considered macronutrients (individual aminos rather than protein). That doesn't mean they don't have calories or that they don't count as protein in your body. So I would count them.
Click to expand...

a BCAA is NOT a macronutrient , so I agree.
But then again agreeing with you might make me an alter *rolleyes*
 
germaine91 said:
Do any of you actually follow the work of people like Alan Aragon, Lyle McDonald, Layne Norton, Eric Helms?
Click to expand...

I do. I'm also familiar with leangains too. It's an interesting discussion and Germaine's views are very common in certain camps in the bodybuilding world.
 
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