Corn, I want to up the volume of the Old School Training Method.

[frorider6]

I can really feel the Fina kicking in and think I would benefit from adding 1 more set on each day. I'll go ahead and post my entire routine, cardio and all, so you can se where I'm at now. Keep in mind I'm trying to gain as much lean mass as possible as well as improve athletic performance. I expect Army basic and OCS will strip some weight off me so I want to go in as big as possible.

Here is my current routine with additions in parenthesis

Mon:
Stiff Leg Deadlift--------2 sets of 10
Military DB Press--------5 sets of 5
Squats--------------------4 sets of 8
(Lunges-------------------4 sets of 8)
Seated Calf Raise-------2 sets of 20 followed by 1 set of 6

Tues:
Cardio - Outdoor running 3.4 miles or stairmaster

Wed:
Barbell Row------------5 sets of 5
Bench Press------------5 sets of 5
(Weighted Dips--------4 sets of 5)
Deadlifts----------------3 sets of 3
Leg Press Calf Raise-2 sets of 20

Thur:
Cardio again

Fri:
Weighted Pullups-----5 sets of 5
(Shrugs-----------------4 sets of 8)
Barbell Curls-----------5 sets of 5
Incline DB Press-------5 sets of 5
Squats------------------5 sets of 5

Sat:
Cardio (haven't really been faithful on this day but will be in the future)




Thanks for all your help.

 

[The Shadow]

Just drop the sets of the new stuff back to three. I think the choices and rep range are good.

 

[frorider6]

By the way, I weighed in at 226.75 last night.

 

[The Shadow]

By the way, I weighed in at 226.75 last night.

You started the old school program in Jan at what - 206??

Damn!

 

[Zebo]

cool Fro.......good work!

 

[frorider6]

You started the old school program in Jan at what - 206??

Damn!

I was going to post this on here but somehow it got on another thead. Oh well, here it is.

3 Jan I posted I was 207 at 7.2% bf. In my avatar, I'm about 212 and 7.2% bf. Currently I'm 226ish and about 11% bodyfat. My strength is WAY WAY up. Hopefully I'll top out in 6 weeks at 235 around 8% bf. If I lose a couple pounds post cycle, I'll be okay with that as long as I keep the fat down (which my girlfriend is helping me out with).

 

[b fold the truth]

What is your intensity like? I would agree that if you add those extra sets...you drop the sets at least.

B True

 

[frorider6]

What is your intensity like? I would agree that if you add those extra sets...you drop the sets at least.

B True

B True, my intensity is ON! ALmost all my sets leave me a bit light headed and gasping for air. I drive myself as hard as I can. In fact, I believe intensity is the only way you'll see any real gains off this program. Hell, I guess it's the same for any program though.

Maybe I could squeeze out 1 more reps if I had a constant partner to spot me, but I think I do okay. I get the spots when I can.

 

[rgosit]

what kind of gains are u guys seeing from this type of workout..???

 

[frorider6]

Check out the original Old School Workout thread. A couple guys did it (all were natural) and all made considerable gains. Long thread but a good read and will help you really understand it.

Old-School 3 day per week thread....

I plan on running this another 3 weeks (I'll be 5 weeks into Fina by then), then plan on switching routines to try to shock my body into further growth while blood levels are high. Hopefully I can gain 6-8 more lbs in the next 3 weeks. I've already gained 6-8. I think I can get 20 lbs out of this 8 week cycle. I just have no idea how I'm going to explain it.

 

[b fold the truth]

What kinds of weights are you using?

Can you take me through a work out week...sets and reps to help me get an idea on exactly what you are doing?

Thanks

B True

 

[frorider6]

What kinds of weights are you using?

Can you take me through a work out week...sets and reps to help me get an idea on exactly what you are doing?

Thanks

B True

Why, so you can laugh at my puny weights!!!!!

Give me a second and I'll post it.

 

[frorider6]

From this week (the pushups and situps are there to get ready for military training)-

Mon:
warmup - 2 in on bike, 35 pushups (nonstop), 33 situps (nonstop)
Stiff Leg Deadlift 205/10 245/7
25 situps
Military DB Press 60/5 70/5 75/5 75/5 75/5 (time to up the weight)
25 pushups (nonstop)
Squats 225/8 245/8 255/8 265/8 (time to up the weight to 265 for the last 3 sets)
Seated Calf Raise 90/20 90/20 180/6

Tues:
5 min bike
20 min StairMaster
1 min bike

Wed:
warmup - 2 min bike, 30 pushups (nonstop)
Barbell Rows 135/5 165/5 185/5 185/5 185/5 (trying to keep weight low and concentrate on proper form and bend)
Bench Press 185/5 205/5 235/5 235/5 235/5 (time to raise weight. 240 for 3 sets next time)
Deadlifts 225/5 255/5 255/5 (may not raise weight just yet. Getting used to deadlifting this much weight)
Leg Press Calf Raise
270/20 270/20 (270 is what was added to the sled. Don't know how much it weighed)

Thur:
approx 2.5 mile run 25 minutes

Friday (from last week since I haven't lifted yet today)
warmup - 2 min bike, 26 pushups, 27 situps, 26 pushups, 30 situps
Weighted Pullups 0/5 0/5 20/5 20/5 20/5 (time to up this weight too)
30 pushups
Barbells Curls 75/5 95/5 115/5 120/5 120/5 (I'll admit to a little cheating on the last 2 reps of the last 2 sets)
26 situps
Incline DB Press 60s/5 70s/5 80s/5 85s/5 85s/5 (time to up this weight too)
25 pushups
Squats
225/5
(traps too sore to continue. Fucked up and gave myself trap injection this day and the previous one. Couldn't rest the bar on it. Should have continued with 255/5 275 or more/5 275+/5 275+/5)

 

[b fold the truth]

That is a pretty intense week man. I do want everyone to know, especially fro and cornholio, that I mean no disrespect...just am curious to understand the "why's" about this program.

I look at what I would be doing according to this workout.

Monday:
Stiff legged deads I'd be using 365-425 for sets of 7-10
Dbell Overheads...not really sure...don't have a place to do these
Squats...365-405 for sets of 8

Wednesday:
Barbell Rows...315-365 for sets of 5
Bench Press...365-405 for sets of 5
Deadlifts...500-550 for sets of 5


Friday:
Chins...haven't done weighted chins in a while..have done 14 chins before though...
Barbell curls...135-185 for sets of 5
Incline Dbell Press...100's - 140's for sets of 5
Squats...405-455 for sets of 5

Ok...where I have questions is my ability to recover from this. If on Monday I push myself on stiff-legged deadlifts and come barely one rep from failure...would I be able to effectively do barbell rows and deadlifts on Wednesday?

After doing overhead presses with the 100's or so on Monday...what about doing flat bench on Wednesday?

If I squat on Monday...how could I possibly recover to do rows and deadlifts on Wednesday?

After doing Wednesday's workout...I would still have to train again on Friday. Back to inclines on Friday and doing Squats again?

I am still not very sure that I could go into the gym without any soreness and effectively train two days later. Many people have problems with the Westside methods of resing 72 hours before training a muscle again if they are clean (myself included). I could not imagine only waiting 48 hours before training with intensity again.

It also seems as if my joints would just take a beeting from all of this. I'd think that it would be better to combine two of the days into one...and just spend the extra time resting. At 285lbs...19.5" arms, 30" thighs with cross striations, etc...when I get sore...it takes a while for my body to recover. When my legs get sore...I need to spend the next two days eating a ton and getting extra rest because it takes so much out of me.

I have another question...but I'll start it on the next post.

Please reply guys...I really do like this program and the idea that this could be of a lot of good for a lot of people...especially some athletes.

B True

 

[b fold the truth]

Ok..do you think that this program is most beneficial for those who are in the 165-225lb range? The reason I ask this is because they are using a lot less weight on every exercise than I would be which would be easier on their joints and their body. I could train a lot more when I was younger/smaller too. I could train everything twice in a week back then...at 185-200lbs with no problems. Heck...I even grew from it!!!

My body takes it hard if I have to squeeze two workouts in back to back even if they are different bodyparts.

C'mon guys...give me your thoughts...

B True

 

[frorider6]

I can't speak to the weight range that this program is effective for. I just know that it's put a lot of size and strength on me. I feel it's made my whole body stronger, not just making individual muscles stronger. See the difference?

Speaking of size and strength...

I weighed in last night at 228. 2 weeks of Fina @ 37.5 mg ED and I've put on 8 lbs. I'm not watching bodyfat at this point but I will have myself calipered at the end of my run.

As for a strength update, I changed my Monday squat routine back to 5 sets of 3. The sets looked like this... 225/3 275/3 315/3 325/3 335/3. 335 is the most I've ever squatted and I busted out 3 reps. I remember back last fall when I had to have a spot to do 315 once.

The lunges after my squats really burned out my legs. I did non-alternating lunges. I placed my feet apat and then did the lunges without moving my feet, 1 side at a time. Is that how you'd recommend to do them or would you recommend switching sides every rep?

Corn, if you ever write a book about this program, I damn well better get included in it and get some kick backs.

 

[The Shadow]

That is a pretty intense week man. I do want everyone to know, especially fro and cornholio, that I mean no disrespect...just am curious to understand the "why's" about this program.

I look at what I would be doing according to this workout.

Monday:
Stiff legged deads I'd be using 365-425 for sets of 7-10
Dbell Overheads...not really sure...don't have a place to do these
Squats...365-405 for sets of 8

Wednesday:
Barbell Rows...315-365 for sets of 5
Bench Press...365-405 for sets of 5
Deadlifts...500-550 for sets of 5


Friday:
Chins...haven't done weighted chins in a while..have done 14 chins before though...
Barbell curls...135-185 for sets of 5
Incline Dbell Press...100's - 140's for sets of 5
Squats...405-455 for sets of 5

Ok...where I have questions is my ability to recover from this. If on Monday I push myself on stiff-legged deadlifts and come barely one rep from failure...would I be able to effectively do barbell rows and deadlifts on Wednesday?

After doing overhead presses with the 100's or so on Monday...what about doing flat bench on Wednesday?

If I squat on Monday...how could I possibly recover to do rows and deadlifts on Wednesday?

After doing Wednesday's workout...I would still have to train again on Friday. Back to inclines on Friday and doing Squats again?

I am still not very sure that I could go into the gym without any soreness and effectively train two days later. Many people have problems with the Westside methods of resing 72 hours before training a muscle again if they are clean (myself included). I could not imagine only waiting 48 hours before training with intensity again.

It also seems as if my joints would just take a beeting from all of this. I'd think that it would be better to combine two of the days into one...and just spend the extra time resting. At 285lbs...19.5" arms, 30" thighs with cross striations, etc...when I get sore...it takes a while for my body to recover. When my legs get sore...I need to spend the next two days eating a ton and getting extra rest because it takes so much out of me.

I have another question...but I'll start it on the next post.

Please reply guys...I really do like this program and the idea that this could be of a lot of good for a lot of people...especially some athletes.

B True

Short answer is - ability to recover is an individual matter.

You will not be able to recovery very effectively at the start of the program.

You will notice after 2-3 weeks that you recovery time is ebhanced due to having 4 days off every week, stating that most people work out 4-6 days per week.

Try it and see

 

[visions]

what's up with all the pushups??

 

[The Shadow]

I can't speak to the weight range that this program is effective for. I just know that it's put a lot of size and strength on me. I feel it's made my whole body stronger, not just making individual muscles stronger. See the difference?

Speaking of size and strength...

I weighed in last night at 228. 2 weeks of Fina @ 37.5 mg ED and I've put on 8 lbs. I'm not watching bodyfat at this point but I will have myself calipered at the end of my run.

As for a strength update, I changed my Monday squat routine back to 5 sets of 3. The sets looked like this... 225/3 275/3 315/3 325/3 335/3. 335 is the most I've ever squatted and I busted out 3 reps. I remember back last fall when I had to have a spot to do 315 once.

The lunges after my squats really burned out my legs. I did non-alternating lunges. I placed my feet apat and then did the lunges without moving my feet, 1 side at a time. Is that how you'd recommend to do them or would you recommend switching sides every rep?

Corn, if you ever write a book about this program, I damn well better get included in it and get some kick backs.

Try lunging with dumbells and really stretch out the strides.

Go for 12 steps or so per leg as one set.

 

[b fold the truth]

I think he does the pushups for his military training...I believe anyway.

B True

 

[frorider6]

I think he does the pushups for his military training...I believe anyway.

B True

Yup. Though it's hard to remember to do them. I'm sure some drill instructor will make me regret missing them too.

 

[visions]

how much weight do you go up each week for your deads and squats?

 

[frorider6]

how much weight do you go up each week for your deads and squats?

If I hit my target reps, I can usually judge if I should go up 5 or 10 lbs next week.

 

[Burning_Inside]

stupid question, but i always wondered what the point was of building an incredible physique just to join the military and go be a faceless meatsack where you might die from a single bullet. Why not use it towards something more lucrative and rewarding like modeling or acting? If it's about pushing yourself to your ultimate limits, hire some big bad ass to kick your ass around, at least you know after it's all over and done with you wont end up with the potential of being in a position to have a missle dropped in on you.

 

[frorider6]

stupid question, but i always wondered what the point was of building an incredible physique just to join the military and go be a faceless meatsack where you might die from a single bullet. Why not use it towards something more lucrative and rewarding like modeling or acting? If it's about pushing yourself to your ultimate limits, hire some big bad ass to kick your ass around, at least you know after it's all over and done with you wont end up with the potential of being in a position to have a missle dropped in on you.

Without sidetracking this thread too much, I'll say this...

I'm trying to get as big as possible because I know the 5 months on intensive training I'm going to go through will strip some weight off me. Hopefully, I'll lose more fat than muscle.

As for getting as big as possible even though 1 bullet can take you down... Well, you have a lot better chance of killing the enemy or getting away if you're in top physical condition. Guns and bullets are heavy.

Also, why drive your car knowing that a drunk driver could kill you in a matter of seconds.

If you think it's so easy to make a living as a model, then why don't you do it. I made some money at it in high school and even had a friend talk me into getting some pictures made last year. But it's tough and highly competitive.

Lastly, it's about service to country. Being the best warrior I can be to help protect my country from fuck sticks that attack us with planes.

 

[b fold the truth]

Ever think about doing sled dragging to increase your GPP?

B True

 

[frorider6]

Ever think about doing sled dragging to increase your GPP?

B True

B True - Yes, I have always thought about sled dragging. And I saw that recent thead about where to order a harness from. It's very interesting and I may give it a try in the next year or so. By the way, what's GPP?

 

[Burning_Inside]

Originally posted by frorider6

As for getting as big as possible even though 1 bullet can take you down... Well, you have a lot better chance of killing the enemy or getting away if you're in top physical condition. Guns and bullets are heavy.

ok Neo :mp5:

Also, why drive your car knowing that a drunk driver could kill you in a matter of seconds.

That's just way way wayyyyyyyyyy too extreme of an analogy and I refuse to get suckered into answering it.

Lastly, it's about service to country. Being the best warrior I can be to help protect my country from fuck sticks that attack us with planes.

Wow so all you want to get big for is to channel all that time money and energy into killing a few lousy towelheads. Yay. I think you're better off to society, friends and family by not going that route, but hey if that's what you're into.

 

[frorider6]

Burning - Look at it this way...

If I don't do it, who will?

 

[b fold the truth]

Here are some good articles.

http://www.elitefitnesssystems.com/documents/gpp.htm

http://www.testosterone.net/html/146gpp.html

They discuss GPP, General Physical Preparedness. I could see this being good training for you when you have to hike, carry your weapons, etc... It is also very good strength cardio so to speak. It will get your muscles into shape.

B True

 

[frorider6]

Here are some good articles.

http://www.elitefitnesssystems.com/documents/gpp.htm

http://www.testosterone.net/html/146gpp.html

They discuss GPP, General Physical Preparedness. I could see this being good training for you when you have to hike, carry your weapons, etc... It is also very good strength cardio so to speak. It will get your muscles into shape.

B True

Very nice!!! While I don't think I can incorporate this into my current routine (but I'll try), I'll definetly keep this in mind for later.

 

[frorider6]

Corn, new question - I really want to incorporate more cutting and cardio into this routine. I'd estimate I'm around 230 lbs at this point (unless I lost some due to poor diet over the weekend. Rough couple of days) but am really unhappy with my bodyfat. I haven't been totally dedicated to my 3x per week cardio, mostly hitting it only 2x. Anyway, I want to keep my weight about the same (or gain only muscle) but want to shift the focus to major fat burning. I'm tired of my girlfriend telling me how much she loves my tummy.

Current approx stats - 230 lbs @11% bf
Goal - 7-8% bf and no drop in "total body weight"

1st, I'm changing my diet.
Breakfast has been a consistent Burger King stop. I know, I know. It will become 3-4 eggs (mostly whites) and waffles or toast. OJ instead of Coke.
I eat out for lunch constantly but instead of a foot long sub I'm going to have a double chicken breast salad. Dressing on the side and use VERY little of that.
Dinner will be equally healthy. If I can't cook it, it will be low carb high protein.
Keeping 3 Isopure protein shakes (50 g protein each) per day with 20 oz 2% milk each.

I think that's a good start.

As for cardio, I'm going to try to stick to my Tues, Thur, Sat cardio with a 2-3 mile run. I am curious though if it would be worth it to add 10 minutes of cardio (treadmill, stair stepper, or recumbent bike) to the end of my lifting days.

I would be extremely happy at 230 with sub 8% bf and high cardio threshhold. Can a brother get a little help?

 

[The Shadow]

Looks pretty good.

THrow in some ALA and a good fat burner.

YOur job at this point is to "melt" away some fat hiting the cadio and cleaning up the deit will do wonders w/o altering anything else.

Do the above until things slow down. IE less than 1.5 pounds per week.

 

[frorider6]

Looks pretty good.

THrow in some ALA and a good fat burner.

YOur job at this point is to "melt" away some fat hiting the cadio and cleaning up the deit will do wonders w/o altering anything else.

Do the above until things slow down. IE less than 1.5 pounds per week.

I've been taking ALA for about a week now at 2700 mg ED. Mostly 2 300 mg caps with my protein shakes.

I have a bottle of Weider MegaRipped that I use for an extra energy kick on days I've been dragging. It's basically just 20 mg Ephedrine and 200 mg Caffeine plus some other shit. It recommend 2 caps 2 hours before working out. I'll give that a try as well.


Just ran the numbers too. For me to go from 11% bf to 7% without losing weight would mean a 9 lb shift. Lose 9 lbs fat and gain 9 lbs muscle. I have about 5 more weeks on my Fina so I think I can do it.

 

[The Shadow]

I've been taking ALA for about a week now at 2700 mg ED. Mostly 2 300 mg caps with my protein shakes.

I have a bottle of Weider MegaRipped that I use for an extra energy kick on days I've been dragging. It's basically just 20 mg Ephedrine and 200 mg Caffeine plus some other shit. It recommend 2 caps 2 hours before working out. I'll give that a try as well.


Just ran the numbers too. For me to go from 11% bf to 7% without losing weight would mean a 9 lb shift. Lose 9 lbs fat and gain 9 lbs muscle. I have about 5 more weeks on my Fina so I think I can do it.

W/o the Fina - I would say it's not possible, but

MOOOOOO!!!

 

[frorider6]

W/o the Fina - I would say it's not possible, but

MOOOOOO!!!

We need to have a black spotted cow smiley.

MOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!

 

[b fold the truth]

Great to see your progress man!!!! Keep us all posted as to how you are doing in the gym, diet, and bf%.

B True

 

[frorider6]

Great to see your progress man!!!! Keep us all posted as to how you are doing in the gym, diet, and bf%.

B True

I had a shitty weekend as far as diet was concerned. Saturday was only 3 meals. I don't mind 1 day like that though as I just need a break from eating. Sunday I only ate 2 meals though! I spent most of the day in the emergency room with my girlfriend. She stepped on a piece of glass. She's going to be okay, but it hurts a lot right now and she's pissed about having to stop running for 2 weeks. Anyway, had a great breakfast at 9:30 am and then nothing but vending machine candy bars until about 8 that night.

I hope I didn't drop any weight. I'll weigh in and hopefully get my bodyfat done today (not looking forward to that).

 

[b fold the truth]

I often take a break from eating. I eat so much for a while then just hate the thought of food...so I don't eat very much for a few days. I rarely ever get tired of food though...lol.

Remember...anything gained quickly is lost quickly.
Anything lost quickly is gained quickly. You will be fine man.

B True

 

[bm2k]

Sunday I only ate 2 meals though! I spent most of the day in the emergency room with my girlfriend. She stepped on a piece of glass. She's going to be okay, but it hurts a lot right now and she's pissed about having to stop running for 2 weeks.

Hope she's okay!

Maybe you can get her lifting more as a result. Running, blah...

 

[frorider6]

My girl is a running freak. She loves it. Imagine if you couldn't lift for 2 weeks.

Anyway, I think I'm going to drop the weight of my squats and raise the reps. My knees have been aching but I believe it's from the amount of running I've been doing. I am going to keep my deadlift reps low though. Been at 5 but may lower to 3.

Weight yesterday was 227.5. Technically down .5 lbs but I think with proper diet I should have gained at least a lb over the weekend. Bodyfat and another weigh in will be done Wed (the guy wasn't available yesterday).

 

[bm2k]

My girl is a running freak. She loves it. Imagine if you couldn't lift for 2 weeks.

I haven't been able to do lower-body stuff for a month, with probably another month to go until I can once more...

 

[frorider6]

Okay Corn, I think I've hit the wall so to speak. I've been hella tired and haven't made any gains in about a week. I think it's time to change my routine.

I still have to be able to run 2-3x per week (2-3 miles each time). I've upped the Fina dose to 50 mg ed (starting today) because I've also started 2.5 mg Bromo ed.

Can you suggest a program for me or link me to an existing one on the board? Would the one you suggested the last time I quit this program be good for me at this time?

I'm thinking something along the lines of 2 days of intense cardio (possibly tues and sat) and 4 days of lifting (MWThF). But that just doesn't sound right.

My goals - continue cardio training, lose 4-5% bf, gain 5-10 lbs of muscle. I have about 5 more weeks on my Fina cycle and might up that to 75 mg ed.

Your help would be much appreciated.

 

[frorider6]

By the way, since Monday was a pretty intense leg day, I can call that done for this week. I can start a new routine today if need be or finish out this week on my current one.

Concerning legs, I'd like to lower the weights and raise the reps for a bit just to give the joints a break.

I do have to go out of town on business next week (M-Th). There is supposedly a "Fitness Facility" on site but if it's crap I have a rental car and can go find a decent gym.

 

[The Shadow]

Try this....

Monday - Back

Seated good mornings - 3 sets of 10-12
Shrugs - 3 sets of 10-12
Bent Over Rows- 3 sets of 6-10
Chins - 3 sets of max


Tuesday - Chest

Incline DB Press - 3 sets of 10-12
Flat Flyes - 3 sets of 12-15
Cable Cross-overs - 3 sets of 12-15
Flat bench on Smith 3 sets of 6-10



Wednesday - Legs

Smith machine lunges - 3 sets of 12 per leg
Stiff Deads - 3 sets of 12-15
Leg curls - 3 sets of 12-15
Hacks - 3 sets of 12-15
Squats - 1 set of 15-20
Seated calf Machine do a set of 15-20 after last set of each exercise

Thursday - Shoulders

Side Laterals - 3 sets of 12-15
Front Laterals - 2 sets of 12-15
Db or Military Press - 3 sets of 6-10
Upright Rows - 3 sets of 10-12

Friday - Arms

DIps or nose breakers 10 sets of 3 reps(after a good warmup)
Barbell Curls - 10 sets of 3 reps(after good warmup)

abs to be doem whenever 3 times per week.

 

[frorider6]

Re: Try this....

Monday - Back

Seated good mornings - 3 sets of 10-12 I didn't see deadlifts anywhere. Could I do deadlifts instead? Same set and rep range?
Shrugs - 3 sets of 10-12
Bent Over Rows- 3 sets of 6-10
Chins - 3 sets of max


Tuesday - Chest Looks like a lot of isolation movements. Will it effectively grow the chest?

Incline DB Press - 3 sets of 10-12
Flat Flyes - 3 sets of 12-15
Cable Cross-overs - 3 sets of 12-15
Flat bench on Smith 3 sets of 6-10 Why on the Smith Machine? I'd rather continue using the bar. DB's at the very least





Wednesday - Legs

Smith machine lunges - 3 sets of 12 per leg No more walking sets? Alternate or do 12 in a row then switch sides?
Stiff Deads - 3 sets of 12-15
Leg curls - 3 sets of 12-15
Hacks - 3 sets of 12-15 Don't have this equipment in my gym. Just a leg press. Do front squats with free bar or on Smith instead?
Squats - 1 set of 15-20
Seated calf Machine do a set of 15-20 after last set of each exercise This sounds pretty cool

Thursday - Shoulders

Side Laterals - 3 sets of 12-15
Front Laterals - 2 sets of 12-15 Can I use the ez-curl bar for this?
Db or Military Press - 3 sets of 6-10
Upright Rows - 3 sets of 10-12 ez-curl or straight bar

Friday - Arms Why limited to only 1 exercise? I understand 10 sets, but why the limitation?

Dips or nose breakers 10 sets of 3 reps(after a good warmup) Should I rotate between dips/nose breakers/close grip bench every 3 weeks?ex - week1=dips, week2=nosebreakers, week3=close grip

Barbell Curls - 10 sets of 3 reps(after good warmup) Same hand position each set? Rotate hand positions after a couple of sets or after each week? ex - week1=wide grip ez-curl, week2=close grip ezcurl, week3=wide grip flat bar, week4=close grip flat bar

abs to be doem whenever 3 times per week.

What days would be best to run? Monday, Thur and Sat?

 

[frorider6]

Also, should I finish out this week of Old School or can I run the above program as Tues (today), Mon (tomorrow), Thur (Friday) for the rest of this week?

 

[b fold the truth]

These routines continue to amaze/confuse me more and more everytime I see a new one..

B True

 

[The Shadow]

These routines continue to amaze/confuse me more and more everytime I see a new one..

B True

This is considered a non-traumatic, recovery high volume type of program

 

[The Shadow]

Re: Re: Try this....

Monday - Back

Seated good mornings - 3 sets of 10-12 I didn't see deadlifts anywhere. Could I do deadlifts instead? Same set and rep range?
Shrugs - 3 sets of 10-12
Bent Over Rows- 3 sets of 6-10
Chins - 3 sets of max


Tuesday - Chest Looks like a lot of isolation movements. Will it effectively grow the chest?

Incline DB Press - 3 sets of 10-12
Flat Flyes - 3 sets of 12-15
Cable Cross-overs - 3 sets of 12-15
Flat bench on Smith 3 sets of 6-10 Why on the Smith Machine? I'd rather continue using the bar. DB's at the very least





Wednesday - Legs

Smith machine lunges - 3 sets of 12 per leg No more walking sets? Alternate or do 12 in a row then switch sides?
Stiff Deads - 3 sets of 12-15
Leg curls - 3 sets of 12-15
Hacks - 3 sets of 12-15 Don't have this equipment in my gym. Just a leg press. Do front squats with free bar or on Smith instead?
Squats - 1 set of 15-20
Seated calf Machine do a set of 15-20 after last set of each exercise This sounds pretty cool

Thursday - Shoulders

Side Laterals - 3 sets of 12-15
Front Laterals - 2 sets of 12-15 Can I use the ez-curl bar for this?
Db or Military Press - 3 sets of 6-10
Upright Rows - 3 sets of 10-12 ez-curl or straight bar

Friday - Arms Why limited to only 1 exercise? I understand 10 sets, but why the limitation?

Dips or nose breakers 10 sets of 3 reps(after a good warmup) Should I rotate between dips/nose breakers/close grip bench every 3 weeks?ex - week1=dips, week2=nosebreakers, week3=close grip

Barbell Curls - 10 sets of 3 reps(after good warmup) Same hand position each set? Rotate hand positions after a couple of sets or after each week? ex - week1=wide grip ez-curl, week2=close grip ezcurl, week3=wide grip flat bar, week4=close grip flat bar

abs to be doem whenever 3 times per week.

What days would be best to run? Monday, Thur and Sat?

Substitute deads if you want.

Chest WILL grow from this Smith is best for Muscle isolation.

12 and then swith legs.

Front squats are ok

Dumbells for the laterals, either bar on the upright rows

As a side - rotate arm exercises every week - keep the rep range the same though

 

[frorider6]

Also, should I finish out this week of Old School or can I run the above program as Tues (today), Mon (tomorrow), Thur (Friday) for the rest of this week?

Corn - what about this question?

B True - I intend to incorporate more "strongman training" later on. I see your point about your lifting routines but I think you need to open your mind a little about other ways.

 

[b fold the truth]

People tend to forget that I did NOT get bigger from strongman training...I got SMALLER from it. I gained my size and mass from simple, heavy workouts...with lots of rest. I gained weight, size, strength, and mass from hard, heavy workouts and resting several days.

If you continue to stick with routines like you are outlining...you will never be able to move heavier weights. Do you not see that your knees are aching? Your knees should not be aching from doing sets of 5 reps. You are overtraining your joints. I just keep reading this and keep hearing that your knees hurt and you are constantly moving to lighter weights again. There is a reason for that and you should recognize it.

I try to bring the strength athlete idea to this board in some posts (mostly the ones about my lifting routines) and try to be focused on others' needs when I comment on theirs.

Smith machines have always been a no no from what I can tell.

" This is considered a non-traumatic, recovery high volume type of program."
.....How so? Why should there be a reason for him to "recover" if the other program was efficient? You should never have a problem recovering if the program is efficent. Recovery should be KEY. I have never heard the terms non-traumatic, recovery, and high volume in the same sentence...they just don't seem to me that they belong together.

B True

 

[frorider6]

B True - I know this is all in good spirit, so what would YOU recommend?

 

[b fold the truth]

I believe in simplicity. When I trained for size...this (or similar variations) worked for me.

Monday: Legs
Squats (full): 3-5 sets of 3-8 reps
Hacks or Leg Press (optional) vary sets and reps
Still Legged Deads: 3-4 sets of 8 reps or less
Standing Calf Raises: 4 sets of 5-10, 30 sec rest between sets
Seated Calf Raises: (optional) 1-3 sets of 10, 30 sec rest between sets

Tuesday: Chest
Flat Bench Press: 4-6 sets of 1-8 reps
Incline Bench Press: 2-4 sets of 3-8 reps
Dips or fly movement: (optional) 1-2 sets, light weight

Thursday: Back
Chins: 3-4 sets, vary reps
Barbell Rows: 2-4 sets, 3-10 reps
Deadlifts: 3-5 sets of 1-5 reps
Seated Pulley Rows or dbell rows: (optional) 1-2 sets, 6-8 reps

Friday: Shoulders, Bic, Tric
Shoulder Presses (bar): 3-5 sets of 3-8 reps
Dbell laterals or Dbell Presses: 1-3 sets of 5-10 reps
Cl Grip Bench Press: 3-5 sets of 1-6 reps
Tric Extension (any variation): 1-3 sets of varying reps (normally 5-12)
Standing Bar Curls: 3-5 sets of 5-10 reps
Curl Variation (any): 1-3 sets of varying reps (normally 5-12)

There are probably tons of holes in this program, but it is the main platform I consistantly used to gain size and strength. You must remember that it is a THINKING and PROGRESSIVE program. You must constantly be changing your reps, weight, sets, optional work and intensity.

Every work day (except for back) is based on a MAIN exercise followed by an AUXILLARY exercise. After you focus on using your heavy weights on your main exercise, move quickly through the others. Focus on weight on the squat, bench, stiff leg, and deadlift. The auxillary exercises can be altered to be used with dbells (cables if you prefer) and are normally done for higher reps.

I'm sure I'll be crucified somehow for this program...but this is what my size/strength program looked like for years.

B True

 

[The Shadow]

I believe in simplicity. When I trained for size...this (or similar variations) worked for me.

Monday: Legs
Squats (full): 3-5 sets of 3-8 reps
Hacks or Leg Press (optional) vary sets and reps
Still Legged Deads: 3-4 sets of 8 reps or less
Standing Calf Raises: 4 sets of 5-10, 30 sec rest between sets
Seated Calf Raises: (optional) 1-3 sets of 10, 30 sec rest between sets

Tuesday: Chest
Flat Bench Press: 4-6 sets of 1-8 reps
Incline Bench Press: 2-4 sets of 3-8 reps
Dips or fly movement: (optional) 1-2 sets, light weight

Thursday: Back
Chins: 3-4 sets, vary reps
Barbell Rows: 2-4 sets, 3-10 reps
Deadlifts: 3-5 sets of 1-5 reps
Seated Pulley Rows or dbell rows: (optional) 1-2 sets, 6-8 reps

Friday: Shoulders, Bic, Tric
Shoulder Presses (bar): 3-5 sets of 3-8 reps
Dbell laterals or Dbell Presses: 1-3 sets of 5-10 reps
Cl Grip Bench Press: 3-5 sets of 1-6 reps
Tric Extension (any variation): 1-3 sets of varying reps (normally 5-12)
Standing Bar Curls: 3-5 sets of 5-10 reps
Curl Variation (any): 1-3 sets of varying reps (normally 5-12)

There are probably tons of holes in this program, but it is the main platform I consistantly used to gain size and strength. You must remember that it is a THINKING and PROGRESSIVE program. You must constantly be changing your reps, weight, sets, optional work and intensity.

Every work day (except for back) is based on a MAIN exercise followed by an AUXILLARY exercise. After you focus on using your heavy weights on your main exercise, move quickly through the others. Focus on weight on the squat, bench, stiff leg, and deadlift. The auxillary exercises can be altered to be used with dbells (cables if you prefer) and are normally done for higher reps.

I'm sure I'll be crucified somehow for this program...but this is what my size/strength program looked like for years.

B True

Fold - very nice.

w/o are very similar to Fro's new one.

I have some of the basic stuff at the end after pre-ee. the major body parts.

Very nice.

 

[The Shadow]

Corn - what about this question?

B True - I intend to incorporate more "strongman training" later on. I see your point about your lifting routines but I think you need to open your mind a little about other ways.

Jump in how/when ever you feel like it.

 

[bm2k]

Monday: Legs
Squats (full): 3-5 sets of 3-8 reps
Hacks or Leg Press (optional) vary sets and reps
Still Legged Deads: 3-4 sets of 8 reps or less
Standing Calf Raises: 4 sets of 5-10, 30 sec rest between sets
Seated Calf Raises: (optional) 1-3 sets of 10, 30 sec rest between sets

Tuesday: Chest
Flat Bench Press: 4-6 sets of 1-8 reps
Incline Bench Press: 2-4 sets of 3-8 reps
Dips or fly movement: (optional) 1-2 sets, light weight

Thursday: Back
Chins: 3-4 sets, vary reps
Barbell Rows: 2-4 sets, 3-10 reps
Deadlifts: 3-5 sets of 1-5 reps
Seated Pulley Rows or dbell rows: (optional) 1-2 sets, 6-8 reps

Friday: Shoulders, Bic, Tric
Shoulder Presses (bar): 3-5 sets of 3-8 reps
Dbell laterals or Dbell Presses: 1-3 sets of 5-10 reps
Cl Grip Bench Press: 3-5 sets of 1-6 reps
Tric Extension (any variation): 1-3 sets of varying reps (normally 5-12)
Standing Bar Curls: 3-5 sets of 5-10 reps
Curl Variation (any): 1-3 sets of varying reps (normally 5-12)
B True

Great looking program.

Did you use much periodization with the rep ranges? Maybe train at the lower end for a month to build strength, then switch to the higher end for more hypertrophy...

 

[b fold the truth]

You need to constantly change. I would get on a strength kick and go heavy, then change up a bit and go a bit lighter for a few weeks. You have to be able to feel your body, work with yourself, and not go by a strict program.

Remember, when you feel that your program is no longer working for you...you are right...it probably stopped a few weeks ago.

B True

 

[The Shadow]

You need to constantly change. I would get on a strength kick and go heavy, then change up a bit and go a bit lighter for a few weeks. You have to be able to feel your body, work with yourself, and not go by a strict program.

Remember, when you feel that your program is no longer working for you...you are right...it probably stopped a few weeks ago.

B True

Solid advice.

That's why there is such a difference in consecutive programs that I set up for people.

Everything works.
Nothing works for long.

 

[The Shadow]

Smith machines have always been a no no from what I can tell.

" This is considered a non-traumatic, recovery high volume type of program."
.....How so? Why should there be a reason for him to "recover" if the other program was efficient? You should never have a problem recovering if the program is efficent. Recovery should be KEY. I have never heard the terms non-traumatic, recovery, and high volume in the same sentence...they just don't seem to me that they belong together.

B True

Number 1 - Any routine will become stale. In this case it happened to be a strength phase. As you up the intensity, signs of overtraining creep in - such as sore joints. That is just a fact of life.

You state that "you should never have a problem recovering if the program is effecient"......well....if you are upping the intensity at each workout as you should(that is called progressive resistance...either bump the reps or the weight)....recoverability will suffer. Surely you agree with that??!?!


So you think that high-volume and non-traumatic don't belong in the same sentence? Why?? If I increase the volume from 5x5 to 3 sets of 10...is that not consided less traumatic(joint-wise especially) with respect to the 5x5??


Fold - you stated somewhere that you got smaller from strongman training and that you are generally among the smaller guys at the elite level at which you compete.....maybe you are as big and strong as you are in spite of your training methods...not because of them...

 

[The Shadow]

BTW - Smith Machine training is a no-no??

For body building purposes it cannot be beat.

 

[bm2k]

BTW - Smith Machine training is a no-no??

For body building purposes it cannot be beat.

Hmm, I strongly disagree with that... Its pretty late here and I couldn't be bothered writing why, but I should do so tomorrow...

 

[The Shadow]

Hmm, I strongly disagree with that... Its pretty late here and I couldn't be bothered writing why, but I should do so tomorrow...

Fine. Post up your reasoning whenever.

There is a reason why 75% of all pros never do free bar flat benches any more.

 

[frorider6]

Well, I did the chest routine last night. A HUGE DIFFERENCE in how I felt and how the muscle felt. Last week, I incline benched 225 for 5 reps on my last 2 sets. Yesterday, I had to drop the weight to 155 to get to 10 reps (I did close my grip in about 2 inches). I've been training low reps for a while so I think this switch to higher reps will shock the hell out of my body and force it to adapt again.

I think my body adapts to a new routine in about 4-5 weeks. And even when I'm in a "set" routine, I still tweek it quite often to try and get the maximum I can out of it.

I'm also constantly trying to up the weight or reps each time I work out. That's why I feel my training log is one of the most important things I've adopted.

 

[The Shadow]

Well, I did the chest routine last night. A HUGE DIFFERENCE in how I felt and how the muscle felt. Last week, I incline benched 225 for 5 reps on my last 2 sets. Yesterday, I had to drop the weight to 155 to get to 10 reps (I did close my grip in about 2 inches). I've been training low reps for a while so I think this switch to higher reps will shock the hell out of my body and force it to adapt again.

I think my body adapts to a new routine in about 4-5 weeks. And even when I'm in a "set" routine, I still tweek it quite often to try and get the maximum I can out of it.

I'm also constantly trying to up the weight or reps each time I work out. That's why I feel my training log is one of the most important things I've adopted.

Very good.

You have discovered that YOU respond best to shorter cycles. I recommend that you switch every 4 weeks.

 

[frorider6]

Very good.

You have discovered that YOU respond best to shorter cycles. I recommend that you switch every 4 weeks.

You're right. My first time on the Old School program, I switched after 4 weeks. This time my gains stopped after 4-5 weeks. I'm pretty damn happy to learn this about myself.

Also, changing routines helps my motivation. Every time I change I can't wait to get back to the gym!

 

[ballast]

Just saw this thread and I didn't realize until now how much interest there was in the old three full body sessions per week routines.I just started a Bill Starr routine and forgot how much I benefited from this type of training.Here is mine:
Monday-Heavy Day
1.Back Squats 5x5
2.Incline Bench Presses 5x5
3.Deadlifts 5x5 or Clean-Grip High Pulls 5x3

Wednesday-Light Day
1.Front or Overhead Squats 5x5
2.Standing Presses 5x5
3.Seated or Standing Good Mornings 5x8

Friday-Medium Day
1.Back Squats 3x5-2x3(using 5-10 ibs more weight than heavy day)
2.Standing Presses 3x5-3x3
3.Dynamic Shrugs 6x5

I end each session with a few sets of ab work and as I get acclimated to the frequency and volume, I'll add in additonal exercises like calf raises,glute-ham raises and beach work like chins and curls.

 

[b fold the truth]

Number 1 - Any routine will become stale. In this case it happened to be a strength phase. As you up the intensity, signs of overtraining creep in - such as sore joints. That is just a fact of life.

You state that "you should never have a problem recovering if the program is effecient"......well....if you are upping the intensity at each workout as you should(that is called progressive resistance...either bump the reps or the weight)....recoverability will suffer. Surely you agree with that??!?!


So you think that high-volume and non-traumatic don't belong in the same sentence? Why?? If I increase the volume from 5x5 to 3 sets of 10...is that not consided less traumatic(joint-wise especially) with respect to the 5x5??


Fold - you stated somewhere that you got smaller from strongman training and that you are generally among the smaller guys at the elite level at which you compete.....maybe you are as big and strong as you are in spite of your training methods...not because of them...

Any routine will stay stale if you never modify it. A solid routine needs very little modification. There also is a difference between muscle overtraining and joint overtraining. He was suffering from joint overtraining (from what I have read).

Why should you have to up the intensity every single workout? In my bodybuilding program...you have the choice of weights and reps...and to a degree...exercises. It is not just cycling weights or reps...but one of the keys is to cycle intensity. I can not train like a mad mad 100% of the time. I can train like a mad man 75% of the time though...and grow.

For me, and I guess that may be the key here, doing a 5x5 routine and a 3x10 routine is not much different. If you are still training super intensely...it is still taxing to the joints.

"Fold - you stated somewhere that you got smaller from strongman training and that you are generally among the smaller guys at the elite level at which you compete.....maybe you are as big and strong as you are in spite of your training methods...not because of them... "
.....For starters...that was very low. You are suggesting that I am big and strong by luck? That is funny...have you not seen my transformation pics?

http://boards.elitefitness.com/forum/showthread.php?threadid=51836

Is what you are saying something similar to what your wife spoke of? That you had big legs yet you rarely ever trained them? So...you have nicely shaped quads in spite of your training methods...right?

I took great offense to that last paragraph...great offense. Maybe there is a reason why I am 285 at the moment and you are in the 220's..yet we are the same height. It might be that I am fat...but I am not that fat. It might have something to do with me not doing the Old School 3 day a week program...might. It also might have something to do with me NOT using the smith machine. It might have something to do with me doing heavy deadlifts, squats, barbell bench press...etc...

How was it you phrased it when you were talking to me...something about me eclipsing the sun?

Sorry...just VERY offended.

B True

 

[The Shadow]

Bottom line:

You are a big and strong person. Elite in the US strong. Freaky strong.

You stated that you lost size once you started strong man training. So despite the training program you are still 285. That is my point. Stong man training caused you to lose size. You stated this yourself.


Maybe you are right. Maybe it is because you don't use machines.
Maybe machines would help you break 300 again - that is not the point.

My only problem is that you rip on a program by looking at it - without even trying it. You continually espouse heavy basic training philsophy - which is what this program is all about. That is what I don't understand. How can you rip on something you won't try. I have said not one word about your strongman training because I have not tried it. That seems hypocritical. My only comment was reiterating the statement by you about losing size to show you my point.

This is nothing personal at all.

YOu guys continue on with whatever traing routine you wish.

This is not worth the effort.

 

[b fold the truth]

Bottom line:

You are a big and strong person. Elite in the US strong. Freaky strong.

You stated that you lost size once you started strong man training. So despite the training program you are still 285. That is my point. Stong man training caused you to lose size. You stated this yourself.


Maybe you are right. Maybe it is because you don't use machines.
Maybe machines would help you break 300 again - that is not the point.

My only problem is that you rip on a program by looking at it - without even trying it. You continually espouse heavy basic training philsophy - which is what this program is all about. That is what I don't understand. How can you rip on something you won't try. I have said not one word about your strongman training because I have not tried it. That seems hypocritical. My only comment was reiterating the statement by you about losing size to show you my point.

This is nothing personal at all.

YOu guys continue on with whatever traing routine you wish.

This is not worth the effort.

I am big and fairly strong for a US strongman competitor...but I made myself this way. I wasn't born this way. At 152lbs I barely towel bounce benched 95lbs and could not squat the bar on the smith machine (thought I was doing the right thing). I have came a long way through hard work on the basic exercises.

I have lost size with my strongman training program but increased my performance on the field. The program that I outlined above is not what I am doing now. The program above that I suggested is what brought me up over 300lbs. I did that in my garage with a power rack, make-shift dbells, and a few bars.

When I became focused on strongman training I turned around quite a bit. I did more explosive work and became an athlete. It does not matter how big I am or how strong I look if I can not do the events. With my current program...I am getting stronger and better at my events...so it is working. With the program I posted earlier...my goals were to get bigger...and I did that with that program.

I do not see a reason to try one of your programs because they do not help with my goals. Fro saw the same things wrong with this latest program that I did...no deadlifts, smith machine, and too many isolation movements. Never think that I have done the exact same program for the past 8 years. I have fallen off the beaten path before and did the smith machine, concentration curls, pec dec, etc...and MIGHT grow for a week or two...then nothing.

I am a firm believer in hard, heavy, and compound. I have proved that it works...through myself.

B True

 

[The Shadow]

I do not see a reason to try one of your programs because they do not help with my goals. Fro saw the same things wrong with this latest program that I did...no deadlifts, smith machine, and too many isolation movements. Never think that I have done the exact same program for the past 8 years. I have fallen off the beaten path before and did the smith machine, concentration curls, pec dec, etc...and MIGHT grow for a week or two...then nothing.

B True

...please ....Fro was on the program for 7 weeks b-4 he noticed the sore joints which he knew would come about. Therfore the change...what is your point??

Beaten path = smith machine and concentration curls - no offense - but Fro does not want to be a powerlifter or strongman - why would he train that way all year.

One more thing - Deadfifts and Squats and benches for low reps do not help with your goals? Funny....

 

[b fold the truth]

"...please ....Fro was on the program for 7 weeks b-4 he noticed the sore joints which he knew would come about. Therfore the change...what is your point?? "
.....I can do WSB principle workouts for 7 weeks without joint problems...so do they.

"Beaten path = smith machine and concentration curls - no offense - but Fro does not want to be a powerlifter or strongman - why would he train that way all year. "
.....Do you not understand that when I did that program I posted...that I was not powerlifting or doing strongman? I was training like a hardcore bodybuilder. I was training for big bodybuilder size.

"One more thing - Deadfifts and Squats and benches for low reps do not help with your goals? Funny...."
.....Trying to look back and see exactly where I said that that squats, deads, and benches don't help me with my goals...don't think I said that in my posts.

B True

 

[The Shadow]

[B
"One more thing - Deadfifts and Squats and benches for low reps do not help with your goals? Funny...."
.....Trying to look back and see exactly where I said that that squats, deads, and benches don't help me with my goals...don't think I said that in my posts.

B True [/B]

LOL!!


YOu did say that the reason you didn't try ANY of my programs was that they didn't meet your needs. The first one was chock full of ggod stuff....


I think we are too passionate about training.

It's all good.

 

[b fold the truth]

It did have lots of good stuff...just too often for me.

I am very passionate about my training...and trying to go pro. The WSB methods seem to meet my needs closer than any other program.

B True

 

[bm2k]

Fine. Post up your reasoning whenever.

There is a reason why 75% of all pros never do free bar flat benches any more.

* range-of-movement limitations
* stressful on knees when squating (result of ROM)
* limited use of stabilisers
* doesn't promote hip flexibility (squats)
* decreased emphasis on hamstrings during squats (can cause knee problems as it isn't acting as an antagonist during flexion of the quadricep - patella isn't supported as much)
* difficult to setup under the bar and squat in proper form (due to ROM restrictions) - poor form causing undesirable spinal cord stress

Maybe I'm coming from a more athletic, sports-specific point of view...

 

[The Shadow]

* range-of-movement limitations
* stressful on knees when squating (result of ROM)
* limited use of stabilisers
* doesn't promote hip flexibility (squats)
* decreased emphasis on hamstrings during squats (can cause knee problems as it isn't acting as an antagonist during flexion of the quadricep - patella isn't supported as much)
* difficult to setup under the bar and squat in proper form (due to ROM restrictions) - poor form causing undesirable spinal cord stress

Maybe I'm coming from a more athletic, sports-specific point of view...

ROm limitations - not true - muscle is still worked thru a full ROM - for wx - Hammer Strength

Stressfull on Knees - Individual thing Smith is great for Lunges and Front Squats

No hip flexibility - why?

Decreased emm,phasis on hams - true to an extent - that's why I do them on the smith - more quad activation. I dop hams separately

Lilited use of stabilizers - THE reason to use the smith. Stabilizers are ALWAYS the limiting facor in benches. Use the Smith after dum. The stabilizers are already fatigued yet the taget muscle is still fresh.

 

[bm2k]

ROm limitations - not true - muscle is still worked thru a full ROM - for wx - Hammer Strength

Stressfull on Knees - Individual thing Smith is great for Lunges and Front Squats

No hip flexibility - why?

Decreased emm,phasis on hams - true to an extent - that's why I do them on the smith - more quad activation. I dop hams separately

Lilited use of stabilizers - THE reason to use the smith. Stabilizers are ALWAYS the limiting facor in benches. Use the Smith after dum. The stabilizers are already fatigued yet the taget muscle is still fresh.

Personally, I find that I can't perform a Smith machine squat through the same ROM as a free-weight squat, consequently my form isn't as it should be. This leads to stress on my knees.

I don't train for 100% bodybuilding purposes. I play indoor soccer and American football (running back). Consequently, I need my speed. Obviously in an athletic sense I can't neglect stabilzers.

I tend to think that its often an individual thing with Smith machine versus free-weight arguments. Personal goals are the key. For bodybuilding, I can see some benefits from using the Smith machine. Thanks for another point-of-view

 

[The Shadow]

Personally, I find that I can't perform a Smith machine squat through the same ROM as a free-weight squat, consequently my form isn't as it should be. This leads to stress on my knees.

I don't train for 100% bodybuilding purposes. I play indoor soccer and American football (running back). Consequently, I need my speed. Obviously in an athletic sense I can't neglect stabilzers.

I tend to think that its often an individual thing with Smith machine versus free-weight arguments. Personal goals are the key. For bodybuilding, I can see some benefits from using the Smith machine. Thanks for another point-of-view

Very good points.

Remember I am a body builder who trains for maximum muscle development. When I make a post - keep that in mind and my ramblings will tend to make a little more sense.

 

[bm2k]

My new program

I believe in simplicity. When I trained for size...this (or similar variations) worked for me.

Monday: Legs
Squats (full): 3-5 sets of 3-8 reps
Hacks or Leg Press (optional) vary sets and reps
Still Legged Deads: 3-4 sets of 8 reps or less
Standing Calf Raises: 4 sets of 5-10, 30 sec rest between sets
Seated Calf Raises: (optional) 1-3 sets of 10, 30 sec rest between sets

Tuesday: Chest
Flat Bench Press: 4-6 sets of 1-8 reps
Incline Bench Press: 2-4 sets of 3-8 reps
Dips or fly movement: (optional) 1-2 sets, light weight

Thursday: Back
Chins: 3-4 sets, vary reps
Barbell Rows: 2-4 sets, 3-10 reps
Deadlifts: 3-5 sets of 1-5 reps
Seated Pulley Rows or dbell rows: (optional) 1-2 sets, 6-8 reps

Friday: Shoulders, Bic, Tric
Shoulder Presses (bar): 3-5 sets of 3-8 reps
Dbell laterals or Dbell Presses: 1-3 sets of 5-10 reps
Cl Grip Bench Press: 3-5 sets of 1-6 reps
Tric Extension (any variation): 1-3 sets of varying reps (normally 5-12)
Standing Bar Curls: 3-5 sets of 5-10 reps
Curl Variation (any): 1-3 sets of varying reps (normally 5-12)

There are probably tons of holes in this program, but it is the main platform I consistantly used to gain size and strength. You must remember that it is a THINKING and PROGRESSIVE program. You must constantly be changing your reps, weight, sets, optional work and intensity.

Every work day (except for back) is based on a MAIN exercise followed by an AUXILLARY exercise. After you focus on using your heavy weights on your main exercise, move quickly through the others. Focus on weight on the squat, bench, stiff leg, and deadlift. The auxillary exercises can be altered to be used with dbells (cables if you prefer) and are normally done for higher reps.

I'm sure I'll be crucified somehow for this program...but this is what my size/strength program looked like for years.

B True

I've based my new routine on the workout b fold posted.

I'm restricted to upper-body movements due to an injury (osteitis pubis), so here is how my new program looks:

Monday (Chest: 7-12 sets)
Flat Bench Press: 4-6 sets of 1-8 reps
Close Grip Bench Press: 2-4 sets of 1-6 reps
Flys: 1-2 sets, light, optional

Wednesday (Back: 9-14 sets)
Chins: 4-6 sets, varying reps
Barbell Rows: 4-6 sets, 3-10 reps
D-bell Rows: 1-2 sets, 6-8 reps

Friday (Shoulders/Arms: 10-17 sets)
Barbell Shoulder Press: 3-5 sets, 3-8 reps
D-bell Laterals: 1-2 sets, 5-10 reps
Close Grip Bench Press: 1-2 sets, 1-6 reps
Barbell Tricep Extension: 1-2 sets, 5-12 reps
Barbell Curls: 3-4 sets, 5-10 reps
Concentration Curls: 1-2 sets, 5-12 reps

I had to make a few changes due to my equipment and injury restrictions (can't deadlift, don't have an incline bench, pulley/cable, dip station etc...), and completely eliminated the leg day to make it a 3-a-week routine .

I altered the volume to fit my strengths and weaknesses. For example, my back is relatively weaker than my chest and has a few more sets devoted to it. My biceps are relatively weaker than my triceps and need more work.

Obviously this program has a body-building emphasis - something I haven't been doing a lot of lately, but given my injury restrictions I don't have much choice now... It will be interesting to see how I respond to it in the next 3-4 weeks until I see my surgeon (hopefully I'll get the all-clear to get back into leg work immediately, but its likely to be another month after I see him...). I'll be looking to maintain throughout this period, so calories won't be too high. Trying to balance atrophying leg muscles and unwanted fat gain through reduced activity levels

After this program - when fully fit - I am going to switch to a pure mass gaining phase using the "old school" routine, modified very slightly to suit my equipment.

Its difficult putting together a properly balanced program without legs, so I'd really love what I've written up to be completely torn apart and critiqued - there's no better way to learn

 

[The Shadow]

Re: My new program

I've based my new routine on the workout b fold posted.

I'm restricted to upper-body movements due to an injury (osteitis pubis), so here is how my new program looks:

Monday (Chest: 7-12 sets)
Flat Bench Press: 4-6 sets of 1-8 reps
Close Grip Bench Press: 2-4 sets of 1-6 reps
Flys: 1-2 sets, light, optional

Wednesday (Back: 9-14 sets)
Chins: 4-6 sets, varying reps
Barbell Rows: 4-6 sets, 3-10 reps
D-bell Rows: 1-2 sets, 6-8 reps

Friday (Shoulders/Arms: 10-17 sets)
Barbell Shoulder Press: 3-5 sets, 3-8 reps
D-bell Laterals: 1-2 sets, 5-10 reps
Close Grip Bench Press: 1-2 sets, 1-6 reps
Barbell Tricep Extension: 1-2 sets, 5-12 reps
Barbell Curls: 3-4 sets, 5-10 reps
Concentration Curls: 1-2 sets, 5-12 reps

I had to make a few changes due to my equipment and injury restrictions (can't deadlift, don't have an incline bench, pulley/cable, dip station etc...), and completely eliminated the leg day to make it a 3-a-week routine .

I altered the volume to fit my strengths and weaknesses. For example, my back is relatively weaker than my chest and has a few more sets devoted to it. My biceps are relatively weaker than my triceps and need more work.

Obviously this program has a body-building emphasis - something I haven't been doing a lot of lately, but given my injury restrictions I don't have much choice now... It will be interesting to see how I respond to it in the next 3-4 weeks until I see my surgeon (hopefully I'll get the all-clear to get back into leg work immediately, but its likely to be another month after I see him...). I'll be looking to maintain throughout this period, so calories won't be too high. Trying to balance atrophying leg muscles and unwanted fat gain through reduced activity levels

After this program - when fully fit - I am going to switch to a pure mass gaining phase using the "old school" routine, modified very slightly to suit my equipment.

Its difficult putting together a properly balanced program without legs, so I'd really love what I've written up to be completely torn apart and critiqued - there's no better way to learn

Drop the close grip presses on chest day or leg day and make an appropriate substitution.

Otherwise looks pretty good.
Good luck!!

 

[bm2k]

Re: Re: My new program

Drop the close grip presses on chest day or leg day and make an appropriate substitution.

Otherwise looks pretty good.
Good luck!!

Yeah, I knew that wasn't ideal. However, I don't have a incline/decline bench or dip station. Any other exercise I could use?

 

[The Shadow]

Re: Re: Re: My new program

Yeah, I knew that wasn't ideal. However, I don't have a incline/decline bench or dip station. Any other exercise I could use?

Hmmmmmmm...

Well...You could try:

feet elevated push-ups for chest

sliding a couple of 45 under one end of the bench to make a slight incline

keep the close grip on chest day and do Nose breakers for triceps on arm day.

 

[bm2k]

Re: Re: Re: Re: My new program

Hmmmmmmm...

Well...You could try:

feet elevated push-ups for chest

sliding a couple of 45 under one end of the bench to make a slight incline

keep the close grip on chest day and do Nose breakers for triceps on arm day.

I think I'll try propping the bench up as safely as I can. The frame of my power rack and a couple of large plates should do the trick. The incline won't end up being huge, so I'll also use the feet elevated push-ups.

Monday will now look like this:

Monday (Chest: 8-13 sets)
Flat Bench Press: 4-6 sets of 1-8 reps
Incline Bench Press: 2-3 sets of 1-6 reps
Feet Elevated Push-ups: 1-2 sets, varying reps, optional
Flys: 1-2 sets, light, optional

 

[Night Fly]

Maybe you are right. Maybe it is because you don't use machines.
Maybe machines would help you break 300 again - that is not the point.

My only problem is that you rip on a program by looking at it - without even trying it. You continually espouse heavy basic training philsophy - which is what this program is all about. That is what I don't understand. How can you rip on something you won't try. I have said not one word about your strongman training because I have not tried it. That seems hypocritical. My only comment was reiterating the statement by you about losing size to show you my point.

OKay...well...I have read this thread long enough without saying anything. This is flat out ridiculous. I am actually sitting here laughing at some of the suggestions I am reading on here. I won't even go into all that.

You know...I have actually had that conversation with him before...the one about why he seems to put down programs that he doesn't try. This was until I realized that he actually HAS done your program...maybe not the exact exercises and what not, but pretty much the same program. This program didn't do anything for him like other programs have (like the other one he posted). He is speakind from his own personal experience...that is it.

You speak of this program being based on low rep heavy basic training...but is that really all you think he does? As you probably have already noticed, he really could care less about his gym numbers...he is not training to increase his gym weights...he is training to get better in strongman. This means...putting everything else and more into his workouts on Sunday...and he puts so much into them, that he really doesn't feel like doing much in the gym during the week. The funny thing is...his "not very much" or his "light/easy" is probably quite a few people's "a whole lot" and "heavy/hard." Do you see what I'm saying.

I think that you are a huge advocate of this type of training because you are a trainer. I mean...has this really worked for you? Are you really as big as you want to be? If you are...then that's great! But if not...why wouldn't YOU consider trying something different. Maybe something that really could put some size on you. It seems to me that you aren't really wanting to realize that maybe if you tried a program that he does...that you, too, would grow from it.

I don't know....this was not meant to be a personal attack to you, at all. I would have said this to anyone else who had typed it. I just really want you to try to see his side of things too. He actually helped me out with the program I am doing...and I have really grown in the past 7 weeks from it. And you know what? I'm not even doing any event training because I can't. I'm just doing gym work.

Good luck with everything, and I truly hope that you didn't take this post the wrong way.

 

[The Shadow]

.

I think that you are a huge advocate of this type of training because you are a trainer. I mean...has this really worked for you? Are you really as big as you want to be? If you are...then that's great! But if not...why wouldn't YOU consider trying something different. Maybe something that really could put some size on you. It seems to me that you aren't really wanting to realize that maybe if you tried a program that he does...that you, too, would grow from it.

I don't know....this was not meant to be a personal attack to you, at all. I would have said this to anyone else who had typed it. I just really want you to try to see his side of things too. He actually helped me out with the program I am doing...and I have really grown in the past 7 weeks from it. And you know what? I'm not even doing any event training because I can't. I'm just doing gym work.

Good luck with everything, and I truly hope that you didn't take this post the wrong way.

I advocate the program because it works. BOttom line. Ask anyone who has tried it. Being a trainer has nothing to do with the situation.

Am I as big as I want to be??

NO.

Am I as big as I can be for stage work and print work??

Yes, to the point that I have lost work.

Again - If I were wanting to get bigger, I don't think I would event train as FOLD had stated that he lost size by doing so.

List what gym training you are doing.

I would imagine it's heavy on the basics like the old school program. Squats deads, etc.

See - the thing is - he stated that he did indeed gain most of his size by doing a very similar program years ago.

The mis-communication was, if event training made him smaller - why would he not be open to a change, as there is a very BIG difference between maintaining anf actuallt losing size. Again, we have talked about that and I see the reasoning behing it.

 

[Night Fly]

I advocate the program because it works. BOttom line. Ask anyone who has tried it. Being a trainer has nothing to do with the situation.

If it worked....wouldn't it be making you bigger by now? Or are you not doing that program and only training others to do it. Also...why do the people who have tried it struggle so much with joint pain, etc? That surely cannot be healthy for them...or you for that matter. I know it doesn't set it for a while, but if you are able to do a program where you have basically NO joint pain...even 7 weeks into the program...why on earth would you want to do one that caused you to have that pain?

Again - If I were wanting to get bigger, I don't think I would event train as FOLD had stated that he lost size by doing so.

Once again, you are failing to realize something. He was 300 lbs when he started his strongman training for his Boston contest. He had decided he wanted to go from 275 to 300 lbs in about 2 months or so. Therefore...putting on that weight he is going to add a lot more fat than muscle in that short period of time. When he started his event training...he lost size...because he lost FAT. He did not lose any muscle...in fact...he gained some more muscle. Because he is a lean 285 and not a chunky 300 you actually can sit there and try to use that as justification for losing size???

You are right...you are too lean right now to do event training because it would make you smaller...considering the way your body is. You are lean now...and he wasn't lean when he started. But can you explain to me why he hasn't lost any of that weight since then....and yet still continues to get stronger and stronger? He is a massive 285 and freakishly strong.

List what gym training you are doing.

I work out 3 days a week. I do deads and back on one day...squats on my leg day...and push presses/chest/shoulders on the other day. I have not gone heavy in my squats or my bench presses the whole time I have been doing this program. I have gone heavy on deads two weeks in a row, but that was it because it taxed my lower back too much. So...no...it's not heavy on the basics. Just a good, solid workout...not a program. I can go into the gym and alter what I do every single workout. I don't ever do the exact same things in the gym two weeks in a row.

Once again, I say that this is not a personal attack towards you at all...and you seemed to take it that way from reading your reply.

 

[The Shadow]

If it worked....wouldn't it be making you bigger by now? Or are you not doing that program and only training others to do it. Also...why do the people who have tried it struggle so much with joint pain, etc? That surely cannot be healthy for them...or you for that matter. I know it doesn't set it for a while, but if you are able to do a program where you have basically NO joint pain...even 7 weeks into the program...why on earth would you want to do one that caused you to have that pain?


......Well...I have recommended that the program is only to be used twice per year. Joint pain comes for the heavier weights which tax ligiments and tendon strength. You imply that I want people to continue on a program when inflamed joints arise. Please point out where I implied that. So - are you saying that you should avoid an exercise altogether because the joints get sore?? Why not cycle onto another program that incluse them but in a different rep range??




Once again, you are failing to realize something. He was 300 lbs when he started his strongman training for his Boston contest. He had decided he wanted to go from 275 to 300 lbs in about 2 months or so. Therefore...putting on that weight he is going to add a lot more fat than muscle in that short period of time. When he started his event training...he lost size...because he lost FAT. He did not lose any muscle...in fact...he gained some more muscle. Because he is a lean 285 and not a chunky 300 you actually can sit there and try to use that as justification for losing size???


Justification is that I swear I read that he used the term "more compact". To me that that doesn't mean fat loss. If that was inded the case then it was my fault for making the asumption.


You are right...you are too lean right now to do event training because it would make you smaller...considering the way your body is. You are lean now...and he wasn't lean when he started. But can you explain to me why he hasn't lost any of that weight since then....and yet still continues to get stronger and stronger? He is a massive 285 and freakishly strong.



Explain why he is getting stronger yet not gain a lot of weight...most powerflifters get stronger without ever changing weight classes. He is not training for size. He is training for strength - two separate issues. I think that is where some of this miscommunication is coming from. I said this was a great program for size with the added benefit of strength.



I work out 3 days a week. I do deads and back on one day...squats on my leg day...and push presses/chest/shoulders on the other day. I have not gone heavy in my squats or my bench presses the whole time I have been doing this program. I have gone heavy on deads two weeks in a row, but that was it because it taxed my lower back too much. So...no...it's not heavy on the basics. Just a good, solid workout...not a program. I can go into the gym and alter what I do every single workout. I don't ever do the exact same things in the gym two weeks in a row.


So - you do a program that relies on Squats, deads and presses - same type exercises as what I recommend. It's good that you can alter the w/o every week. That point is really neither here nor there. If a program is working, even doing thwe smae exercises and rep scheme - you should make progress for several weeks in a row.


Once again, I say that this is not a personal attack towards you at all...and you seemed to take it that way from reading your reply.

Please point out where I seemed to take your comments personally, because that is not the case.

 

[b fold the truth]

"......Well...I have recommended that the program is only to be used twice per year. Joint pain comes for the heavier weights which tax ligiments and tendon strength. You imply that I want people to continue on a program when inflamed joints arise. Please point out where I implied that. So - are you saying that you should avoid an exercise altogether because the joints get sore?? Why not cycle onto another program that incluse them but in a different rep range?? "

If a program is to only be used twice a year...it is not a good program. Louie Simmons says that any program that "works only for a limited time" is not a good one. You are usually growing because of simple change and/or overtraining.

Where do find that Joint pain comes from heavier weights? Joint pain, in this case, probably comes from the fact that you are doing squats, deads, and flat presses 3x per week. The joint never gets a rest. She never said that you should avoid that exercise totally...just NOT 3x per week...and heaven forbid a machine like the Smith Machine. A machine that restricts the joint's movement to a non-natural movement.

"Justification is that I swear I read that he used the term "more compact". To me that that doesn't mean fat loss. If that was inded the case then it was my fault for making the asumption. "

More compact? I am functionally stronger now than I was a year ago.
August, 2000: 275lbs.
December 26th 2000: 305lbs.
I was still doing bodybuilding then...no machines...same garage gym I train in now.
February 2001: 290lbs, getting in better cardio shape.
June 2001: 289, still better cardio shape
October 2001: 280, really focusing on speed strength and cardio
February 2002: 290, super cardio shape AND strength
Current: 285, great shape, getting leaner, strength phase beginning

You do not seem to understand that at 285...my waist is about 4-5" smaller and everything else is the same. Sure, the "pretty" muscles (chest, front delts, quads, etc..) don't look as "pretty", but strength does not lay in those muscles. Strength comes from those muscles that you see from the backsides of a person. I don't train my front delts, upper chest, biceps, quads hardly at all with strongman...I train total functional strength.

BUT...

I have not advocated doing strongman training on this thread at all. I have not suggested doing farmers, yoke walk, harness pulling, hussefeld stone lifting, etc...on this thread. I posted a bodybuilding routine. I posted a routine that took me from 152-305lbs.

"Explain why he is getting stronger yet not gain a lot of weight...most powerflifters get stronger without ever changing weight classes. He is not training for size. He is training for strength - two separate issues. I think that is where some of this miscommunication is coming from. I said this was a great program for size with the added benefit of strength."

I am constantly getting leaner and doing 4 hours of cardio on Sundays don't help too much either. Hard, intense cardio. I lift 2x a week and one day of events...the rest is REST time. Powerlifters don't change weight classes? The strongest powerlifters are USUALLY in the SHW class. A powerlifter, good one anyway, will tell you that if you want to push/pull more weight...get bigger and gain weight.

Your program is good for size and strength? A person can get stronger at concentration curls...but that is not what I consider strength. Smith Squats? Smith Bench? Push-ups on a bench? Gloves, straps, padding the bar while doing squats? One word...KAZ.

"So - you do a program that relies on Squats, deads and presses - same type exercises as what I recommend. It's good that you can alter the w/o every week. That point is really neither here nor there. If a program is working, even doing thwe smae exercises and rep scheme - you should make progress for several weeks in a row."

"I would imagine it's heavy on the basics like the old school program. Squats deads, etc. "

Monday:Squats, Bench, Deads 10 sets of 10
Tues-Sunday: Repeat every day

This program is based on squats, bench, and deadlift...just like mine and hers? What is your point? There is little to no correlation between our programs. Just because they both advocate squats...doesn't mean that they are equal...or even close.

"See - the thing is - he stated that he did indeed gain most of his size by doing a very similar program years ago."

YOU said that, not me. Our programs are similar to the point that we both trained in a gym, that is about where it ended.

"The mis-communication was, if event training made him smaller - why would he not be open to a change, as there is a very BIG difference between maintaining anf actuallt losing size. Again, we have talked about that and I see the reasoning behing it."

Event training did NOT make me smaller. The intense cardio, many other factors in my life, and getting constantly leaner has made me smaller. I still have a 30" thigh, 19+" arms, calves nearing 18", cross striations in my thighs, etc... I train for pure strength and functionality towards my events. Why waste 10 sets for upper chest or outer delts if they don't make a hill of beans difference on contest day?

BUT...

That was not my point...my point is that you are using my strongman training to compare to...my functionality training. I give advice to those wishing to get bigger and stronger...not how to be a strongman. Seems as if your point just doesn't make any sense.

Why will I not try your program? Because I do not wish to lose further strength, overtrain, have an injury, lose speed strength, lose strength speed...and Heaven Forbid if anyone ever sees me on a Smith Machine...unless I am using it to hold by sweaty t-shirts while changing clothes.

I am living proof that peole can gain large amounts of weight, drug free, with very limited equipment. When I gained to 305lbs...I had a bar, semi power rack, 700lbs of 45's, 2 cable pull downs, 2 dbells, and a make-shift chin up bar.

Maybe I am ignorant to the ways of modern day bodybuilding. If modern day bodybuilding revolves around straps, gloves, padding the bar, smith machines, overtraining, etc...I want little to do about it.

I don't give advice to those who just want to look "toned" or anyone who wants to be happy weighing 200lbs. I wanted to be a freak. I wanted freakish size and freakish strength. I've accomplished a lot more of that than the average person I guess...but I didn't get hooked on the cables and machines fad for very long. I have done about every program type in the world. I found which ones had good points and which ones had tons of bad ones.

In our society...we see so many things as "quick and easy, just follow these steps and you can too..." and this is not correct. Find those who are where you want to be and ask questions. Learn from them...and improve simply, basically, and with all that you have.

Ohh...I don't think that I am the ONLY one being closed minded here. Don't think I am being closed minded at all.

B True

 

[The Shadow]

If a program is to only be used twice a year...it is not a good program. Louie Simmons says that any program that "works only for a limited time" is not a good one. You are usually growing because of simple change and/or overtraining.


...if you are growing - does it really matter if you are changing programs or not? You follow the SAME program in exactly the same way for a year and you will not GROW.



Where do find that Joint pain comes from heavier weights? Joint pain, in this case, probably comes from the fact that you are doing squats, deads, and flat presses 3x per week. The joint never gets a rest. She never said that you should avoid that exercise totally...just NOT 3x per week...and heaven forbid a machine like the Smith Machine. A machine that restricts the joint's movement to a non-natural movement.



...show me where I recommended a Smith Machine 3 times per week
... Squatting was TWICE per week for a total of 6 working sets. You think that that is too many sets??



More compact? I am functionally stronger now than I was a year ago.
August, 2000: 275lbs.
December 26th 2000: 305lbs.
I was still doing bodybuilding then...no machines...same garage gym I train in now.
February 2001: 290lbs, getting in better cardio shape.
June 2001: 289, still better cardio shape
October 2001: 280, really focusing on speed strength and cardio
February 2002: 290, super cardio shape AND strength
Current: 285, great shape, getting leaner, strength phase beginning



I never said anything to the contrary - only that you lost from 315 to 285.






Your program is good for size and strength? A person can get stronger at concentration curls...but that is not what I consider strength. Smith Squats? Smith Bench? Push-ups on a bench? Gloves, straps, padding the bar while doing squats? One word...KAZ.


If you are referring to the NEWER workout I gave to Fro - please show me where I said it was a size and strength program.....why not be strong on every exercise???





This program is based on squats, bench, and deadlift...just like mine and hers? What is your point? There is little to no correlation between our programs. Just because they both advocate squats...doesn't mean that they are equal...or even close.


Wasn't my point....my point was that she is on a program that advocates the SAME exercises - squats deads and presses.





Event training did NOT make me smaller. The intense cardio, many other factors in my life, and getting constantly leaner has made me smaller. I still have a 30" thigh, 19+" arms, calves nearing 18", cross striations in my thighs, etc... I train for pure strength and functionality towards my events. Why waste 10 sets for upper chest or outer delts if they don't make a hill of beans difference on contest day?

I saw a pic of you doing inclines - why do them if they don't matter on contest day?


Why will I not try your program? Because I do not wish to lose further strength, overtrain, have an injury, lose speed strength, lose strength speed...and Heaven Forbid if anyone ever sees me on a Smith Machine...unless I am using it to hold by sweaty t-shirts while changing clothes.



I don't understand - you think that the original progarm I gave Fro will not make you stronger??? Again you mention the Smith Machine when it is NOT a part of that original program


Maybe I am ignorant to the ways of modern day bodybuilding. If modern day bodybuilding revolves around straps, gloves, padding the bar, smith machines, overtraining, etc...I want little to do about it.


LOL - Whatever.......that's fine. My program, again was a size program primarily with an added benefit of increased strength.



Ohh...I don't think that I am the ONLY one being closed minded here. Don't think I am being closed minded at all.

Agian - you pull these statements out of the air. Show me WHERE I said you were being close minded, please.....


.

 

[b fold the truth]

"...if you are growing - does it really matter if you are changing programs or not? You follow the SAME program in exactly the same way for a year and you will not GROW."

Constantly changing your program, constantly changing your exercises...probably not gonna get very strong on those exercises...probably. The point where squats, deads, and bench press (in their raw form) are taken out of the program...especially for size...the program takes a great nose dive in my opinion.

"...show me where I recommended a Smith Machine 3 times per week
... Squatting was TWICE per week for a total of 6 working sets. You think that that is too many sets??"

Squatting twice per week and deadlifts once or twice a week too? How many times a week are you doing pressing movements in the Old School Routine? Don't think I said you suggested the Smith Machine 3x a week. You suggested the Smith Machine though...that is bad enough. Smith Lunges, Smith bench press, that just kills it for me. You take stress off of the muscle and put it on the joint. You take Fro, knees hurting, and put him doing lunges...and on a smith machine.

"I never said anything to the contrary - only that you lost from 315 to 285."

BUT you used that statement to say that I was big despite my training methods...AND that I would be bigger if I used machines...and to discredit my training methods. YOU would gain from doing events...it would be something heavy and with total free weights.

"If you are referring to the NEWER workout I gave to Fro - please show me where I said it was a size and strength program.....why not be strong on every exercise??? "

Ok...so are you saying that it is for strength and size or not? Why not be strong on smith machine bench or smith machine squats or bench push ups? Because they are worthless. They do not work the body like they are intended to be worked...freely. They restrict the range of motion that a joint can go through. You also said this..."I said this was a great program for size with the added benefit of strength."

"Wasn't my point....my point was that she is on a program that advocates the SAME exercises - squats deads and presses."

Wasn't your point? You used the fact that she does squats, deads, and presses to advocate your method because it includes the same exercises. If you would like to infer that just because the two programs include a couple of the same qualities that they are equal...you are wrong. My truck has 4 wheels and so does my father's 1938 Olds...yet there is a big difference in the transportation methods which they provide. Like I showed...I could train squats, bench, and deads 7 days a week and it would have the same lifts as yours...but STILL would not be a good one.

"I saw a pic of you doing inclines - why do them if they don't matter on contest day? "

I'll post a pic of me doing the incline log press from a contest soon. Do you mean the 2 sets of inclines I did by the way? I said why do 10 sets of upper chest and side delts if they didn't make a hill of beans worth of difference on contest day? Inclines do work as an auxillary exercise to the overhead log press (which I set a PR in on Sunday).

"LOL - Whatever.......that's fine. My program, again was a size program primarily with an added benefit of increased strength."

Thought that you weren't interested in strength?

"Agian - you pull these statements out of the air. Show me WHERE I said you were being close minded, please..... "

I deleted the PM where you called me close minded...or I would post it.

B True

 

[The Shadow]

Constantly changing your program, constantly changing your exercises...probably not gonna get very strong on those exercises...probably. The point where squats, deads, and bench press (in their raw form) are taken out of the program...especially for size...the program takes a great nose dive in my opinion.


Ok - then do you change your program or not?? What do you mean taken out of the program...especially for size. You think moving a "mass builder" to the end of a workout diminished it's effectiveness??



"...show me where I recommended a Smith Machine 3 times per week
... Squatting was TWICE per week for a total of 6 working sets. You think that that is too many sets??"

Squatting twice per week and deadlifts once or twice a week too? How many times a week are you doing pressing movements in the Old School Routine? Don't think I said you suggested the Smith Machine 3x a week. You suggested the Smith Machine though...that is bad enough. Smith Lunges, Smith bench press, that just kills it for me. You take stress off of the muscle and put it on the joint. You take Fro, knees hurting, and put him doing lunges...and on a smith machine.

1 - You know the program. You also know that thre are only 3 working sets for each "group" per workout. SO that is TOO much stress? As far as the Smith Machine goes - you don't like it. Fine. Tell me how smith lunges "restrict" the natural joint movement of a straight up and down.....movement

kills it for YOU. That is the key point exactly. Give Fro a little credit, please. Why don't you state a resaon why Machines are not superior for muscle isolation with respect to bodybuilding. AGIN, for the millionth time...this is from a bb approach




"I never said anything to the contrary - only that you lost from 315 to 285."

BUT you used that statement to say that I was big despite my training methods...AND that I would be bigger if I used machines...and to discredit my training methods. YOU would gain from doing events...it would be something heavy and with total free weights.

Again my friend. YOU were the one that stated "I lost size when I began strongman training.". If you meant you lost bodyfat...why didn't you say that you got leaner??? Again - that conversation was in reference to the original program. ONCE again you seem to have gotten that mixed up somehow.

"If you are referring to the NEWER workout I gave to Fro - please show me where I said it was a size and strength program.....why not be strong on every exercise??? "

Ok...so are you saying that it is for strength and size or not? Why not be strong on smith machine bench or smith machine squats or bench push ups? Because they are worthless. They do not work the body like they are intended to be worked...freely. They restrict the range of motion that a joint can go through. You also said this..."I said this was a great program for size with the added benefit of strength."


AGIAIN _ SIZE PLUS ADDED STRENGTH NOT STRENGTH WITH ADDED SIZE........

Interesting that on many World's Strongest Man comps I have seen the Smith Machine Squat used as a test of strength. Correct?? SO if you KNEW that would be an event - you would not train directly for it??

You mentioned being strong on concentration curls was not "your" idea of being strong. I simply asked why not attempt to build strength on EVERY exercise you do?? Not simply on the larger lifts?



Bench push up? Give me a break. The guy has no incline/decline. Not pertinent to the discussion and you dang well know it. That comment is SO off topic it shouldn't even be addressed.

"Wasn't my point....my point was that she is on a program that advocates the SAME exercises - squats deads and presses."

Wasn't your point? You used the fact that she does squats, deads, and presses to advocate your method because it includes the same exercises. If you would like to infer that just because the two programs include a couple of the same qualities that they are equal...you are wrong. My truck has 4 wheels and so does my father's 1938 Olds...yet there is a big difference in the transportation methods which they provide. Like I showed...I could train squats, bench, and deads 7 days a week and it would have the same lifts as yours...but STILL would not be a good one.

But we weren't training them 7 days a week were we?? The number of sets, reps per set and working sets per week are pretty equal. Except for the 10x10 on deads...did you mean on squats and benches as well??

"I saw a pic of you doing inclines - why do them if they don't matter on contest day? "

I'll post a pic of me doing the incline log press from a contest soon. Do you mean the 2 sets of inclines I did by the way? I said why do 10 sets of upper chest and side delts if they didn't make a hill of beans worth of difference on contest day? Inclines do work as an auxillary exercise to the overhead log press (which I set a PR in on Sunday).

You mentioned the incline press as a worthless exercise come contest day...not me. SO you feels that you get maximum strength benefit from 2 sets? How many warm-ups, if any, did you do?

"LOL - Whatever.......that's fine. My program, again was a size program primarily with an added benefit of increased strength."



Thought that you weren't interested in strength?

What part of Size with benefit of strength do you not comprende??

"Agian - you pull these statements out of the air. Show me WHERE I said you were being close minded, please..... "

I deleted the PM where you called me close minded...or I would post it.

Again - you are wrong. Fro said that about you being close minded and it is still posted on a thread. Not me fella.

 

[b fold the truth]

Your opinion changes nearly every single time you post. You can not seem to find the difference in the way that I train now for STRONGMAN from how I USED to train for STRENGTH and SIZE. I did not used to train event specific...which I do NOW.

You run around on here saying all kinds of things and it blows me away that people take your advice. If you KNOW all of these things yet do NOT do them...then they are all pure theory. I can speak from experience. I did it. I transformed my body.

"Ok - then do you change your program or not?? What do you mean taken out of the program...especially for size. You think moving a "mass builder" to the end of a workout diminished it's effectiveness?? "

I rarely every make any large changes. If I did...it would not be to much variation. Variation came from rep changes, tempo changes, and not exercise changes. It did NOT involve Smith Machines either.


"1 - You know the program. You also know that thre are only 3 working sets for each "group" per workout. SO that is TOO much stress? As far as the Smith Machine goes - you don't like it. Fine. Tell me how smith lunges "restrict" the natural joint movement of a straight up and down.....movement"

3 working sets? The program says 5 sets on the Old School routine. Still...I could go out in the garage and do 1 set of 20 reps for 6 days straight...and wonder why I now need knee surgery. But...it was ONLY 6 working sets.

Smith Machines are horrible. They force your back and knees to a point where they should not be. Sure...mabye if you are using baby weights and plan on using them forever...they MAY provide some benefit...I highly doubt it. They restrict the squat and bench movement greatly.

"kills it for YOU. That is the key point exactly. Give Fro a little credit, please. Why don't you state a resaon why Machines are not superior for muscle isolation with respect to bodybuilding. AGIN, for the millionth time...this is from a bb approach "

I have never taken anything away from Fro at all. Don't turn this around to where I am attacking Fro.

Wait...wait...you are now saying that machines are better for bodybuilding? You MUST be kidding me. Must be kidding!!!!

"Again my friend. YOU were the one that stated "I lost size when I began strongman training.". If you meant you lost bodyfat...why didn't you say that you got leaner??? Again - that conversation was in reference to the original program. ONCE again you seem to have gotten that mixed up somehow."

Once again...you are confusing yourself. I lost the "pretty muscle" size when I began STRONGMAN training because I don't focus on those muscles. Did you read my last post at all? I have NOT given advice and used examples from strongman training on this post. I said that in my last post too...I gave bodybuilding advice...not strongman advice.

If you would like to suggest that my advice is incorrect because I am a strongman and train for strongman and have lost size since strongman...go ahead. Talk to Svend Karlsen...current World's Strongest Man, past world class powerlifter, AND IFBB Pro Bodybuilder. Don't think that he built his mass with machines either.

I am giving my bodybuilding advice here...and because I encourage a bodybuilder to train for SIZE...powerful size...freakish size...isn't a bad thing.

"AGIAIN _ SIZE PLUS ADDED STRENGTH NOT STRENGTH WITH ADDED SIZE........ "

You are running in circles here. You said what you said that you didn't say. You said that this program was not a strength program...but that it was.

"Interesting that on many World's Strongest Man comps I have seen the Smith Machine Squat used as a test of strength. Correct?? SO if you KNEW that would be an event - you would not train directly for it?? "

Interesting that many of them have suffered BAD injuries too. They also throw kegs to test "strength". We also throw rocks, push cars, etc...but they are NOT considered strength exercises either. If "tobacco picking" was gonna be an event...I would practice that too...but still wouldn't consider it a good strength or size building exercise...much as the smith machine squat.

"You mentioned being strong on concentration curls was not "your" idea of being strong. I simply asked why not attempt to build strength on EVERY exercise you do?? Not simply on the larger lifts? "

Ok...because concentration curls are NOT going to build me huge arms (believe it or not). They are not going to give me a freakishly strength base. Maybe I should switch everything to cables, leg extensions, leg curls, etc... Shoot...I won't worry about being big with the big exercises...I'll just really work those concentration curls a lot. WAIT!!!! You aren't concerned about strength on these exercises are you...I forgot.

You don't mean that Progressive Resistance Training doesn't call for progressively using heavier weights do you? I sure believe it does...but what I do I know? I'm just a wee lad.

"Bench push up? Give me a break. The guy has no incline/decline. Not pertinent to the discussion and you dang well know it. That comment is SO off topic it shouldn't even be addressed."

Not pertinent to the discussion? I beg to differ. I would suggest a lot before I told someone to do incline push ups for a chest exercise. You suggest the use of straps, gloves, padding the bar, Smith Machine lunges, smith machine mench, and bench push ups...

"You mentioned the incline press as a worthless exercise come contest day...not me. SO you feels that you get maximum strength benefit from 2 sets? How many warm-ups, if any, did you do? "

I said that the incline press is worthless come contest day? I said that pretty muscles are worthless on contest day. I also said that upper pecs and side delts are worthless on contest day...BUT YOU ONCE AGAIN FORGET THAT I AM NOT GIVING STRONGMAN ADVICE HERE!!! Do you not see that???? Really...do you not???

"What part of Size with benefit of strength do you not comprende?? "

I "comprende" (in my best redneck accent) that you must lift heavier to get bigger.

"Again - you are wrong. Fro said that about you being close minded and it is still posted on a thread. Not me fella."

Umm...no. Do you forget the PM you sent me about me being closed minded? I didn't. You know the one that I didn't honor you with a reply to.

If you are happy being 220lbs the rest of your life...then that is fine. I do not care to be small or use the smith machine, straps, gloves, the PAD, etc...either. Just because a machine was invented...it doesn't mean that you have to use it. It doesn't mean that it works well for size or strength.

I can say that I have proved it...I have went from small to large. Till you do the same...it is all theory.

B True

 

[The Shadow]

Your opinion changes nearly every single time you post. You can not seem to find the difference in the way that I train now for STRONGMAN from how I USED to train for STRENGTH and SIZE. I did not used to train event specific...which I do NOW.

You run around on here saying all kinds of things and it blows me away that people take your advice. If you KNOW all of these things yet do NOT do them...then they are all pure theory. I can speak from experience. I did it. I transformed my body.


1 - People are training for different goals. "Why would I not give them a program to help attain those goals, whether I do the porgram personally or not. YOu transformed your body. Gongtars I did the Same. THere is a picture posted somewhere on this board that showmed me weighting 155 as well. Again - because I am not big and strong in your opinion, does NOT mean that I do not know how to train to acheive that. Conversly the biggest guy in the gym doen not always know how to train either. Again - it is a personal and professional reason that I am NOT bigger than I am.

You think that my ideas are simply theory????

WHy don't you put up a plool for everyone who has tried this program and see if it is simplt "theory" to them.




"Ok - then do you change your program or not?? What do you mean taken out of the program...especially for size. You think moving a "mass builder" to the end of a workout diminished it's effectiveness?? "

I rarely every make any large changes. If I did...it would not be to much variation. Variation came from rep changes, tempo changes, and not exercise changes. It did NOT involve Smith Machines either.


But the point is you do modify your training. That was all I was asking. Again - Smith Machine is NOT pertinent to the discussion about the Old School Program. Why don't you understand that?


"1 - You know the program. You also know that thre are only 3 working sets for each "group" per workout. SO that is TOO much stress? As far as the Smith Machine goes - you don't like it. Fine. Tell me how smith lunges "restrict" the natural joint movement of a straight up and down.....movement"

3 working sets? The program says 5 sets on the Old School routine. Still...I could go out in the garage and do 1 set of 20 reps for 6 days straight...and wonder why I now need knee surgery. But...it was ONLY 6 working sets.


Perhaps you should go back and re-read the rest of the thread. I plainly stated that the first two sets on the 5x5 are indeeed progressively heavier warm-up sets. Again you would be an idiot to do a set of 20 to failure 6 days straight. That point is not pertinent either. Again, ficticious hypotheticals that do not exist. If you think that the 6 working sets per WEEK on squats will cause too much strain for you.......

Smith Machines are horrible. They force your back and knees to a point where they should not be. Sure...maybe if you are using baby weights and plan on using them forever...they MAY provide some benefit...I highly doubt it. They restrict the squat and bench movement greatly.


Again - you evade the question. Prove to me that they are inferior for muscle isolation.......


"kills it for YOU. That is the key point exactly. Give Fro a little credit, please. Why don't you state a resaon why Machines are not superior for muscle isolation with respect to bodybuilding. AGIN, for the millionth time...this is from a bb approach "

I have never taken anything away from Fro at all. Don't turn this around to where I am attacking Fro.


I am not turning anything around. YOu were the one who implied that anyone, Fro in this case, would continue to do a program that causes him pain.



Wait...wait...you are now saying that machines are better for bodybuilding? You MUST be kidding me. Must be kidding!!!!


Certain machines are most beneficial for bodybuilding. Did I say better all-around. No I didn't. Again - something you pull out of thin air.....you want to debate a free-weight only versus a combo of free weight s and machines for muscle growth - I will MORe than glad to.



"Again my friend. YOU were the one that stated "I lost size when I began strongman training.". If you meant you lost bodyfat...why didn't you say that you got leaner??? Again - that conversation was in reference to the original program. ONCE again you seem to have gotten that mixed up somehow."

Once again...you are confusing yourself. I lost the "pretty muscle" size when I began STRONGMAN training because I don't focus on those muscles. Did you read my last post at all? I have NOT given advice and used examples from strongman training on this post. I said that in my last post too...I gave bodybuilding advice...not strongman advice.


SO - you lost muscle size - that is my only point. YOu can't argue that point both ways. Was it fat or was it indeed "pretty muscle"?? DIdn't sya you had given strongman advice on this post. Again - show me where I said you did.


If you would like to suggest that my advice is incorrect because I am a strongman and train for strongman and have lost size since strongman...go ahead. Talk to Svend Karlsen...current World's Strongest Man, past world class powerlifter, AND IFBB Pro Bodybuilder. Don't think that he built his mass with machines either.


Again - not the point. The point would be if he incorporated machines during his body building phase. I would think that the answer would be yes.



I am giving my bodybuilding advice here...and because I encourage a bodybuilder to train for SIZE...powerful size...freakish size...isn't a bad thing.

"AGIAIN _ SIZE PLUS ADDED STRENGTH NOT STRENGTH WITH ADDED SIZE........ "

You are running in circles here. You said what you said that you didn't say. You said that this program was not a strength program...but that it was.


Not gonna address this point again. YOu know damn well that I have stated REPEATEDLY that this is a size porgram first and foremost. Period. End of discussion for this topic.



"Interesting that on many World's Strongest Man comps I have seen the Smith Machine Squat used as a test of strength. Correct?? SO if you KNEW that would be an event - you would not train directly for it?? "

Interesting that many of them have suffered BAD injuries too. They also throw kegs to test "strength". We also throw rocks, push cars, etc...but they are NOT considered strength exercises either. If "tobacco picking" was gonna be an event...I would practice that too...but still wouldn't consider it a good strength or size building exercise...much as the smith machine squat.


So you admit that you would train for a smith event even though you would not consider it a good strength event.....Your bad analogies reply is not a very good one - many more injuries have happened on events such as the tire flip othe revents.



"You mentioned being strong on concentration curls was not "your" idea of being strong. I simply asked why not attempt to build strength on EVERY exercise you do?? Not simply on the larger lifts? "

Ok...because concentration curls are NOT going to build me huge arms (believe it or not). They are not going to give me a freakishly strength base. Maybe I should switch everything to cables, leg extensions, leg curls, etc... Shoot...I won't worry about being big with the big exercises...I'll just really work those concentration curls a lot. WAIT!!!! You aren't concerned about strength on these exercises are you...I forgot.



The ONLY reason I asked the question was beciuse you brought up the question of strength on those exercises first. Who said you should switch entirely to isolation exercises??? Again - body building type approach. It is very evident that you do not train with a bber's mentality. That's fine.....


You don't mean that Progressive Resistance Training doesn't call for progressively using heavier weights do you? I sure believe it does...but what I do I know? I'm just a wee lad.


Progressive resistance does involves more than heavier weight my friend.


"Bench push up? Give me a break. The guy has no incline/decline. Not pertinent to the discussion and you dang well know it. That comment is SO off topic it shouldn't even be addressed."

Not pertinent to the discussion? I beg to differ. I would suggest a lot before I told someone to do incline push ups for a chest exercise. You suggest the use of straps, gloves, padding the bar, Smith Machine lunges, smith machine mench, and bench push ups...


Go back and read the guys situation - now - what would YOU have recommended. Knowing that he has no incline, decline or dip station. He wanted three exercises. You seem to fail to remember that I aslo suggested rigging his station if possible to make a small incline. Convenient that you forgot that. Convenient but not suprising....

"You mentioned the incline press as a worthless exercise come contest day...not me. SO you feels that you get maximum strength benefit from 2 sets? How many warm-ups, if any, did you do? "

I said that the incline press is worthless come contest day? I said that pretty muscles are worthless on contest day. I also said that upper pecs and side delts are worthless on contest day...BUT YOU ONCE AGAIN FORGET THAT I AM NOT GIVING STRONGMAN ADVICE HERE!!! Do you not see that???? Really...do you not???

That is not what you said, my friend. Thsi is your statement:

"I said why do 10 sets of upper chest and side delts if they didn't make a hill of beans worth of difference on contest day?"

So - was the incline press for prety muscles or is it a beneficial exercise? YOu are not giving strongman advice??? You make the above statement and some how think that is NOT giving advice for strongman??


"What part of Size with benefit of strength do you not comprende?? "

I "comprende" (in my best redneck accent) that you must lift heavier to get bigger.

Heavier to get bigger??? Really. Explain all those powerlifters that continue to go up, up, up in weights lifted yet never change weight classes. Muscle size and muscle strength are dictated by TUT. There should be no debate about that.



"Again - you are wrong. Fro said that about you being close minded and it is still posted on a thread. Not me fella."

Umm...no. Do you forget the PM you sent me about me being closed minded? I didn't. You know the one that I didn't honor you with a reply to.


I do not remember sending you a pm that called you "close minded" sorry. I still think that you are mistaken about that.


If you are happy being 220lbs the rest of your life...then that is fine. I do not care to be small or use the smith machine, straps, gloves, the PAD, etc...either. Just because a machine was invented...it doesn't mean that you have to use it. It doesn't mean that it works well for size or strength.


Tell me something. Since YOU keep bringing this point up - why do you have a problem with say...the pad on the bar for doing shruegs or squats. DOn't twist this around and say that I recommend it because you have never seen me state that. But - still the question remains - how can a pad on the bar have ANY bearing on the benefit derived for the exercise itself. Same with lifting straps...do you not use forearm wraps when carring the stones??? Do they not provide additional benefit??



I can say that I have proved it...I have went from small to large. Till you do the same...it is all theory.

Till I do the same....funny.

You think that a person has to be 300 pounds to KNOW about training? I wouldn't want to weigh 300 pounds at any point in my life...personal choice. Just as I am sure you wouldn't want to weigh 220.

SO - because you have gone from small to large means that anyone who has not done the same does not posess practical knowledge - only theoretical.


This is the last response on the subject for numerous reason. The first and foremost being that you make these statments that you say I have stated. When I call you to show me where I said that, you either forget to do so or realize that I didn't say them after all. You also want to bring up "running in circles" when I give a program that is based on current wants and needs. You point oue the use of a Machine and rail on the idea that it is not best suited for strength when it was not given in a program with a focus on strength. Finally - your attitude that size somehow equates to knowledge is so inane that I will not discuss the matter further.

 

[pact]

Corn, i'm thinking of trying this old-school program for 4-6 weeks. i'm an athlete, so i've been training for strength the last month and a half, so time to switch to something to put on more size.
questions
1) are you supposed to go to failure in this workout (if so, what exercise, sets, or all of them)? and
2) how long rest between sets (i was thinking 2mins since i'm looking for more atrophy)?
thanks
pact

 

[bm2k]

2mins since i'm looking for more atrophy

Is there a reason for wanting to lose muscle mass? As an athlete, I'd only look at that as an option after I was as lean as I could possibly get, and still needed to drop some weight for whatever reason.

 

[pact]

WHOA!! big mistake!
i want more hypertrophy, not atrophy!
sorry guys
pact

 

[The Shadow]

WHOA!! big mistake!
i want more hypertrophy, not atrophy!
sorry guys
pact

lol - 3 to 5 minutes on the 5 sets.

As much as needed after the 20 reps stuff.
Ask Bfold about his rest periods as they pertain to his style of training.

General rule of thumd:

Rest long enough for the "out-og-breaths" not to affect your next set...

 

[b fold the truth]

General rule of thumd:

Rest long enough for the "out-og-breaths" not to affect your next set...

My thoughts exactly!

B True

 

[pact]

Are you supposed to go to failure on all sets??
pact

 

[The Shadow]

Are you supposed to go to failure on all sets??
pact

LOL

I sent you a pm on this already