Corn, I want to up the volume of the Old School Training Method.

[The Shadow]

Constantly changing your program, constantly changing your exercises...probably not gonna get very strong on those exercises...probably. The point where squats, deads, and bench press (in their raw form) are taken out of the program...especially for size...the program takes a great nose dive in my opinion.


Ok - then do you change your program or not?? What do you mean taken out of the program...especially for size. You think moving a "mass builder" to the end of a workout diminished it's effectiveness??



"...show me where I recommended a Smith Machine 3 times per week
... Squatting was TWICE per week for a total of 6 working sets. You think that that is too many sets??"

Squatting twice per week and deadlifts once or twice a week too? How many times a week are you doing pressing movements in the Old School Routine? Don't think I said you suggested the Smith Machine 3x a week. You suggested the Smith Machine though...that is bad enough. Smith Lunges, Smith bench press, that just kills it for me. You take stress off of the muscle and put it on the joint. You take Fro, knees hurting, and put him doing lunges...and on a smith machine.

1 - You know the program. You also know that thre are only 3 working sets for each "group" per workout. SO that is TOO much stress? As far as the Smith Machine goes - you don't like it. Fine. Tell me how smith lunges "restrict" the natural joint movement of a straight up and down.....movement

kills it for YOU. That is the key point exactly. Give Fro a little credit, please. Why don't you state a resaon why Machines are not superior for muscle isolation with respect to bodybuilding. AGIN, for the millionth time...this is from a bb approach




"I never said anything to the contrary - only that you lost from 315 to 285."

BUT you used that statement to say that I was big despite my training methods...AND that I would be bigger if I used machines...and to discredit my training methods. YOU would gain from doing events...it would be something heavy and with total free weights.

Again my friend. YOU were the one that stated "I lost size when I began strongman training.". If you meant you lost bodyfat...why didn't you say that you got leaner??? Again - that conversation was in reference to the original program. ONCE again you seem to have gotten that mixed up somehow.

"If you are referring to the NEWER workout I gave to Fro - please show me where I said it was a size and strength program.....why not be strong on every exercise??? "

Ok...so are you saying that it is for strength and size or not? Why not be strong on smith machine bench or smith machine squats or bench push ups? Because they are worthless. They do not work the body like they are intended to be worked...freely. They restrict the range of motion that a joint can go through. You also said this..."I said this was a great program for size with the added benefit of strength."


AGIAIN _ SIZE PLUS ADDED STRENGTH NOT STRENGTH WITH ADDED SIZE........

Interesting that on many World's Strongest Man comps I have seen the Smith Machine Squat used as a test of strength. Correct?? SO if you KNEW that would be an event - you would not train directly for it??

You mentioned being strong on concentration curls was not "your" idea of being strong. I simply asked why not attempt to build strength on EVERY exercise you do?? Not simply on the larger lifts?



Bench push up? Give me a break. The guy has no incline/decline. Not pertinent to the discussion and you dang well know it. That comment is SO off topic it shouldn't even be addressed.

"Wasn't my point....my point was that she is on a program that advocates the SAME exercises - squats deads and presses."

Wasn't your point? You used the fact that she does squats, deads, and presses to advocate your method because it includes the same exercises. If you would like to infer that just because the two programs include a couple of the same qualities that they are equal...you are wrong. My truck has 4 wheels and so does my father's 1938 Olds...yet there is a big difference in the transportation methods which they provide. Like I showed...I could train squats, bench, and deads 7 days a week and it would have the same lifts as yours...but STILL would not be a good one.

But we weren't training them 7 days a week were we?? The number of sets, reps per set and working sets per week are pretty equal. Except for the 10x10 on deads...did you mean on squats and benches as well??

"I saw a pic of you doing inclines - why do them if they don't matter on contest day? "

I'll post a pic of me doing the incline log press from a contest soon. Do you mean the 2 sets of inclines I did by the way? I said why do 10 sets of upper chest and side delts if they didn't make a hill of beans worth of difference on contest day? Inclines do work as an auxillary exercise to the overhead log press (which I set a PR in on Sunday).

You mentioned the incline press as a worthless exercise come contest day...not me. SO you feels that you get maximum strength benefit from 2 sets? How many warm-ups, if any, did you do?

"LOL - Whatever.......that's fine. My program, again was a size program primarily with an added benefit of increased strength."



Thought that you weren't interested in strength?

What part of Size with benefit of strength do you not comprende??

"Agian - you pull these statements out of the air. Show me WHERE I said you were being close minded, please..... "

I deleted the PM where you called me close minded...or I would post it.

Again - you are wrong. Fro said that about you being close minded and it is still posted on a thread. Not me fella.

 

[b fold the truth]

Your opinion changes nearly every single time you post. You can not seem to find the difference in the way that I train now for STRONGMAN from how I USED to train for STRENGTH and SIZE. I did not used to train event specific...which I do NOW.

You run around on here saying all kinds of things and it blows me away that people take your advice. If you KNOW all of these things yet do NOT do them...then they are all pure theory. I can speak from experience. I did it. I transformed my body.

"Ok - then do you change your program or not?? What do you mean taken out of the program...especially for size. You think moving a "mass builder" to the end of a workout diminished it's effectiveness?? "

I rarely every make any large changes. If I did...it would not be to much variation. Variation came from rep changes, tempo changes, and not exercise changes. It did NOT involve Smith Machines either.


"1 - You know the program. You also know that thre are only 3 working sets for each "group" per workout. SO that is TOO much stress? As far as the Smith Machine goes - you don't like it. Fine. Tell me how smith lunges "restrict" the natural joint movement of a straight up and down.....movement"

3 working sets? The program says 5 sets on the Old School routine. Still...I could go out in the garage and do 1 set of 20 reps for 6 days straight...and wonder why I now need knee surgery. But...it was ONLY 6 working sets.

Smith Machines are horrible. They force your back and knees to a point where they should not be. Sure...mabye if you are using baby weights and plan on using them forever...they MAY provide some benefit...I highly doubt it. They restrict the squat and bench movement greatly.

"kills it for YOU. That is the key point exactly. Give Fro a little credit, please. Why don't you state a resaon why Machines are not superior for muscle isolation with respect to bodybuilding. AGIN, for the millionth time...this is from a bb approach "

I have never taken anything away from Fro at all. Don't turn this around to where I am attacking Fro.

Wait...wait...you are now saying that machines are better for bodybuilding? You MUST be kidding me. Must be kidding!!!!

"Again my friend. YOU were the one that stated "I lost size when I began strongman training.". If you meant you lost bodyfat...why didn't you say that you got leaner??? Again - that conversation was in reference to the original program. ONCE again you seem to have gotten that mixed up somehow."

Once again...you are confusing yourself. I lost the "pretty muscle" size when I began STRONGMAN training because I don't focus on those muscles. Did you read my last post at all? I have NOT given advice and used examples from strongman training on this post. I said that in my last post too...I gave bodybuilding advice...not strongman advice.

If you would like to suggest that my advice is incorrect because I am a strongman and train for strongman and have lost size since strongman...go ahead. Talk to Svend Karlsen...current World's Strongest Man, past world class powerlifter, AND IFBB Pro Bodybuilder. Don't think that he built his mass with machines either.

I am giving my bodybuilding advice here...and because I encourage a bodybuilder to train for SIZE...powerful size...freakish size...isn't a bad thing.

"AGIAIN _ SIZE PLUS ADDED STRENGTH NOT STRENGTH WITH ADDED SIZE........ "

You are running in circles here. You said what you said that you didn't say. You said that this program was not a strength program...but that it was.

"Interesting that on many World's Strongest Man comps I have seen the Smith Machine Squat used as a test of strength. Correct?? SO if you KNEW that would be an event - you would not train directly for it?? "

Interesting that many of them have suffered BAD injuries too. They also throw kegs to test "strength". We also throw rocks, push cars, etc...but they are NOT considered strength exercises either. If "tobacco picking" was gonna be an event...I would practice that too...but still wouldn't consider it a good strength or size building exercise...much as the smith machine squat.

"You mentioned being strong on concentration curls was not "your" idea of being strong. I simply asked why not attempt to build strength on EVERY exercise you do?? Not simply on the larger lifts? "

Ok...because concentration curls are NOT going to build me huge arms (believe it or not). They are not going to give me a freakishly strength base. Maybe I should switch everything to cables, leg extensions, leg curls, etc... Shoot...I won't worry about being big with the big exercises...I'll just really work those concentration curls a lot. WAIT!!!! You aren't concerned about strength on these exercises are you...I forgot.

You don't mean that Progressive Resistance Training doesn't call for progressively using heavier weights do you? I sure believe it does...but what I do I know? I'm just a wee lad.

"Bench push up? Give me a break. The guy has no incline/decline. Not pertinent to the discussion and you dang well know it. That comment is SO off topic it shouldn't even be addressed."

Not pertinent to the discussion? I beg to differ. I would suggest a lot before I told someone to do incline push ups for a chest exercise. You suggest the use of straps, gloves, padding the bar, Smith Machine lunges, smith machine mench, and bench push ups...

"You mentioned the incline press as a worthless exercise come contest day...not me. SO you feels that you get maximum strength benefit from 2 sets? How many warm-ups, if any, did you do? "

I said that the incline press is worthless come contest day? I said that pretty muscles are worthless on contest day. I also said that upper pecs and side delts are worthless on contest day...BUT YOU ONCE AGAIN FORGET THAT I AM NOT GIVING STRONGMAN ADVICE HERE!!! Do you not see that???? Really...do you not???

"What part of Size with benefit of strength do you not comprende?? "

I "comprende" (in my best redneck accent) that you must lift heavier to get bigger.

"Again - you are wrong. Fro said that about you being close minded and it is still posted on a thread. Not me fella."

Umm...no. Do you forget the PM you sent me about me being closed minded? I didn't. You know the one that I didn't honor you with a reply to.

If you are happy being 220lbs the rest of your life...then that is fine. I do not care to be small or use the smith machine, straps, gloves, the PAD, etc...either. Just because a machine was invented...it doesn't mean that you have to use it. It doesn't mean that it works well for size or strength.

I can say that I have proved it...I have went from small to large. Till you do the same...it is all theory.

B True

 

[The Shadow]

Your opinion changes nearly every single time you post. You can not seem to find the difference in the way that I train now for STRONGMAN from how I USED to train for STRENGTH and SIZE. I did not used to train event specific...which I do NOW.

You run around on here saying all kinds of things and it blows me away that people take your advice. If you KNOW all of these things yet do NOT do them...then they are all pure theory. I can speak from experience. I did it. I transformed my body.


1 - People are training for different goals. "Why would I not give them a program to help attain those goals, whether I do the porgram personally or not. YOu transformed your body. Gongtars I did the Same. THere is a picture posted somewhere on this board that showmed me weighting 155 as well. Again - because I am not big and strong in your opinion, does NOT mean that I do not know how to train to acheive that. Conversly the biggest guy in the gym doen not always know how to train either. Again - it is a personal and professional reason that I am NOT bigger than I am.

You think that my ideas are simply theory????

WHy don't you put up a plool for everyone who has tried this program and see if it is simplt "theory" to them.




"Ok - then do you change your program or not?? What do you mean taken out of the program...especially for size. You think moving a "mass builder" to the end of a workout diminished it's effectiveness?? "

I rarely every make any large changes. If I did...it would not be to much variation. Variation came from rep changes, tempo changes, and not exercise changes. It did NOT involve Smith Machines either.


But the point is you do modify your training. That was all I was asking. Again - Smith Machine is NOT pertinent to the discussion about the Old School Program. Why don't you understand that?


"1 - You know the program. You also know that thre are only 3 working sets for each "group" per workout. SO that is TOO much stress? As far as the Smith Machine goes - you don't like it. Fine. Tell me how smith lunges "restrict" the natural joint movement of a straight up and down.....movement"

3 working sets? The program says 5 sets on the Old School routine. Still...I could go out in the garage and do 1 set of 20 reps for 6 days straight...and wonder why I now need knee surgery. But...it was ONLY 6 working sets.


Perhaps you should go back and re-read the rest of the thread. I plainly stated that the first two sets on the 5x5 are indeeed progressively heavier warm-up sets. Again you would be an idiot to do a set of 20 to failure 6 days straight. That point is not pertinent either. Again, ficticious hypotheticals that do not exist. If you think that the 6 working sets per WEEK on squats will cause too much strain for you.......

Smith Machines are horrible. They force your back and knees to a point where they should not be. Sure...maybe if you are using baby weights and plan on using them forever...they MAY provide some benefit...I highly doubt it. They restrict the squat and bench movement greatly.


Again - you evade the question. Prove to me that they are inferior for muscle isolation.......


"kills it for YOU. That is the key point exactly. Give Fro a little credit, please. Why don't you state a resaon why Machines are not superior for muscle isolation with respect to bodybuilding. AGIN, for the millionth time...this is from a bb approach "

I have never taken anything away from Fro at all. Don't turn this around to where I am attacking Fro.


I am not turning anything around. YOu were the one who implied that anyone, Fro in this case, would continue to do a program that causes him pain.



Wait...wait...you are now saying that machines are better for bodybuilding? You MUST be kidding me. Must be kidding!!!!


Certain machines are most beneficial for bodybuilding. Did I say better all-around. No I didn't. Again - something you pull out of thin air.....you want to debate a free-weight only versus a combo of free weight s and machines for muscle growth - I will MORe than glad to.



"Again my friend. YOU were the one that stated "I lost size when I began strongman training.". If you meant you lost bodyfat...why didn't you say that you got leaner??? Again - that conversation was in reference to the original program. ONCE again you seem to have gotten that mixed up somehow."

Once again...you are confusing yourself. I lost the "pretty muscle" size when I began STRONGMAN training because I don't focus on those muscles. Did you read my last post at all? I have NOT given advice and used examples from strongman training on this post. I said that in my last post too...I gave bodybuilding advice...not strongman advice.


SO - you lost muscle size - that is my only point. YOu can't argue that point both ways. Was it fat or was it indeed "pretty muscle"?? DIdn't sya you had given strongman advice on this post. Again - show me where I said you did.


If you would like to suggest that my advice is incorrect because I am a strongman and train for strongman and have lost size since strongman...go ahead. Talk to Svend Karlsen...current World's Strongest Man, past world class powerlifter, AND IFBB Pro Bodybuilder. Don't think that he built his mass with machines either.


Again - not the point. The point would be if he incorporated machines during his body building phase. I would think that the answer would be yes.



I am giving my bodybuilding advice here...and because I encourage a bodybuilder to train for SIZE...powerful size...freakish size...isn't a bad thing.

"AGIAIN _ SIZE PLUS ADDED STRENGTH NOT STRENGTH WITH ADDED SIZE........ "

You are running in circles here. You said what you said that you didn't say. You said that this program was not a strength program...but that it was.


Not gonna address this point again. YOu know damn well that I have stated REPEATEDLY that this is a size porgram first and foremost. Period. End of discussion for this topic.



"Interesting that on many World's Strongest Man comps I have seen the Smith Machine Squat used as a test of strength. Correct?? SO if you KNEW that would be an event - you would not train directly for it?? "

Interesting that many of them have suffered BAD injuries too. They also throw kegs to test "strength". We also throw rocks, push cars, etc...but they are NOT considered strength exercises either. If "tobacco picking" was gonna be an event...I would practice that too...but still wouldn't consider it a good strength or size building exercise...much as the smith machine squat.


So you admit that you would train for a smith event even though you would not consider it a good strength event.....Your bad analogies reply is not a very good one - many more injuries have happened on events such as the tire flip othe revents.



"You mentioned being strong on concentration curls was not "your" idea of being strong. I simply asked why not attempt to build strength on EVERY exercise you do?? Not simply on the larger lifts? "

Ok...because concentration curls are NOT going to build me huge arms (believe it or not). They are not going to give me a freakishly strength base. Maybe I should switch everything to cables, leg extensions, leg curls, etc... Shoot...I won't worry about being big with the big exercises...I'll just really work those concentration curls a lot. WAIT!!!! You aren't concerned about strength on these exercises are you...I forgot.



The ONLY reason I asked the question was beciuse you brought up the question of strength on those exercises first. Who said you should switch entirely to isolation exercises??? Again - body building type approach. It is very evident that you do not train with a bber's mentality. That's fine.....


You don't mean that Progressive Resistance Training doesn't call for progressively using heavier weights do you? I sure believe it does...but what I do I know? I'm just a wee lad.


Progressive resistance does involves more than heavier weight my friend.


"Bench push up? Give me a break. The guy has no incline/decline. Not pertinent to the discussion and you dang well know it. That comment is SO off topic it shouldn't even be addressed."

Not pertinent to the discussion? I beg to differ. I would suggest a lot before I told someone to do incline push ups for a chest exercise. You suggest the use of straps, gloves, padding the bar, Smith Machine lunges, smith machine mench, and bench push ups...


Go back and read the guys situation - now - what would YOU have recommended. Knowing that he has no incline, decline or dip station. He wanted three exercises. You seem to fail to remember that I aslo suggested rigging his station if possible to make a small incline. Convenient that you forgot that. Convenient but not suprising....

"You mentioned the incline press as a worthless exercise come contest day...not me. SO you feels that you get maximum strength benefit from 2 sets? How many warm-ups, if any, did you do? "

I said that the incline press is worthless come contest day? I said that pretty muscles are worthless on contest day. I also said that upper pecs and side delts are worthless on contest day...BUT YOU ONCE AGAIN FORGET THAT I AM NOT GIVING STRONGMAN ADVICE HERE!!! Do you not see that???? Really...do you not???

That is not what you said, my friend. Thsi is your statement:

"I said why do 10 sets of upper chest and side delts if they didn't make a hill of beans worth of difference on contest day?"

So - was the incline press for prety muscles or is it a beneficial exercise? YOu are not giving strongman advice??? You make the above statement and some how think that is NOT giving advice for strongman??


"What part of Size with benefit of strength do you not comprende?? "

I "comprende" (in my best redneck accent) that you must lift heavier to get bigger.

Heavier to get bigger??? Really. Explain all those powerlifters that continue to go up, up, up in weights lifted yet never change weight classes. Muscle size and muscle strength are dictated by TUT. There should be no debate about that.



"Again - you are wrong. Fro said that about you being close minded and it is still posted on a thread. Not me fella."

Umm...no. Do you forget the PM you sent me about me being closed minded? I didn't. You know the one that I didn't honor you with a reply to.


I do not remember sending you a pm that called you "close minded" sorry. I still think that you are mistaken about that.


If you are happy being 220lbs the rest of your life...then that is fine. I do not care to be small or use the smith machine, straps, gloves, the PAD, etc...either. Just because a machine was invented...it doesn't mean that you have to use it. It doesn't mean that it works well for size or strength.


Tell me something. Since YOU keep bringing this point up - why do you have a problem with say...the pad on the bar for doing shruegs or squats. DOn't twist this around and say that I recommend it because you have never seen me state that. But - still the question remains - how can a pad on the bar have ANY bearing on the benefit derived for the exercise itself. Same with lifting straps...do you not use forearm wraps when carring the stones??? Do they not provide additional benefit??



I can say that I have proved it...I have went from small to large. Till you do the same...it is all theory.

Till I do the same....funny.

You think that a person has to be 300 pounds to KNOW about training? I wouldn't want to weigh 300 pounds at any point in my life...personal choice. Just as I am sure you wouldn't want to weigh 220.

SO - because you have gone from small to large means that anyone who has not done the same does not posess practical knowledge - only theoretical.


This is the last response on the subject for numerous reason. The first and foremost being that you make these statments that you say I have stated. When I call you to show me where I said that, you either forget to do so or realize that I didn't say them after all. You also want to bring up "running in circles" when I give a program that is based on current wants and needs. You point oue the use of a Machine and rail on the idea that it is not best suited for strength when it was not given in a program with a focus on strength. Finally - your attitude that size somehow equates to knowledge is so inane that I will not discuss the matter further.

 

[pact]

Corn, i'm thinking of trying this old-school program for 4-6 weeks. i'm an athlete, so i've been training for strength the last month and a half, so time to switch to something to put on more size.
questions
1) are you supposed to go to failure in this workout (if so, what exercise, sets, or all of them)? and
2) how long rest between sets (i was thinking 2mins since i'm looking for more atrophy)?
thanks
pact

 

[bm2k]

2mins since i'm looking for more atrophy

Is there a reason for wanting to lose muscle mass? As an athlete, I'd only look at that as an option after I was as lean as I could possibly get, and still needed to drop some weight for whatever reason.

 

[pact]

WHOA!! big mistake!
i want more hypertrophy, not atrophy!
sorry guys
pact

 

[The Shadow]

WHOA!! big mistake!
i want more hypertrophy, not atrophy!
sorry guys
pact

lol - 3 to 5 minutes on the 5 sets.

As much as needed after the 20 reps stuff.
Ask Bfold about his rest periods as they pertain to his style of training.

General rule of thumd:

Rest long enough for the "out-og-breaths" not to affect your next set...

 

[b fold the truth]

General rule of thumd:

Rest long enough for the "out-og-breaths" not to affect your next set...

My thoughts exactly!

B True

 

[pact]

Are you supposed to go to failure on all sets??
pact

 

[The Shadow]

Are you supposed to go to failure on all sets??
pact

LOL

I sent you a pm on this already