CARDIO is a WASTE of TIME and ENERGY!!!

[Animal]

You guys are really missing

Some key elements and a whole host of biochemical and metabolic events which take place when aerobic exercise is engaged including, but not limited to, raising NA/NE levels, passive glucose uptake, increased insulin sensitivity, raises T3, etc.

Yea, now sit there and tell us how somebody who has LESS insulin sensitivity because they sit on their ass devoid of aerobic work is gonna have a better biochemical profile for uptake of normal glucose from the diet. Hell, even show us how someone who has THE SAME insulin sensitivity who doesn't do aerobics as someone how does.

Awww shit! I'm totally wrong cause I guess that the one thing they DO NOT tell people with adult onset diabetes which is nothing more than 'you are a fat lazy ass who eats and does no aerobics, to start an aerobic exercise program. Damnit, they just tell them to sit on their ass some more and the pounds will melt away as long as they don't eat, right?

 

[BrickGirl]

I would like to say one thing, I have asked Nelson in private questions and he has answered them in detail for me without ever telling me to buy his book except for his signature Thanks Nelson Just had to say that.

 

[TxRugby_8]

ok

 

[Themachine01]

I would like to say one thing, I have asked Nelson in private questions and he has answered them in detail for me without ever telling me to buy his book except for his signature Thanks Nelson Just had to say that.

I guess he likes girls better

 

[BrickGirl]

Thats not a bad thing

 

[HUCKLEBERRY FINNaplex]

Re: You guys are really missing

Some key elements and a whole host of biochemical and metabolic events which take place when aerobic exercise is engaged including, but not limited to, raising NA/NE levels, passive glucose uptake, increased insulin sensitivity, raises T3, etc.

Yea, now sit there and tell us how somebody who has LESS insulin sensitivity because they sit on their ass devoid of aerobic work is gonna have a better biochemical profile for uptake of normal glucose from the diet. Hell, even show us how someone who has THE SAME insulin sensitivity who doesn't do aerobics as someone how does.

Awww shit! I'm totally wrong cause I guess that the one thing they DO NOT tell people with adult onset diabetes which is nothing more than 'you are a fat lazy ass who eats and does no aerobics, to start an aerobic exercise program. Damnit, they just tell them to sit on their ass some more and the pounds will melt away as long as they don't eat, right?

Thank you.

 

[Peyomp]

You know, I first made the statements about cardio in 1998 and a lot of people thought I was out of my mind. Meanwhile EVERYONE who took my advice admitted it was the way to go. Today, the weight traning approach to cardiovascular health has become more accepted.

You probably have access to the text of journal articles... what do you think of that one that I quoted that says resistance training doesn't icnrease VO2 max?

 

[Nelson Montana]

machine: Show me one example of when I asked you for money or pitched my book to you.

idanimal: Sorry, but you're starting to lose me.

Huck: I have deep props for you bro, but I think you're missing the point on this one. No one is advocating sitting on your ass and cutting calories. The key is to make the most of fat burning activity and aerobics are way down on the list.

Thank YOU brick girl.

Yes, I do like girls better. They smell good.

 

[HUCKLEBERRY FINNaplex]

Actually Nelson,I think you're missing MY point.That being,that there is no,'one size fits all' approach in terms of fatloss...I actually agree with what you're saying about dietary manipulation,I just don't think you're taking into consideration those of us with lifetime metabolic challenges,particularly in regards to insulin sensitivity.A keto type diet does indeed go a LONG way,but there are those of us who's bodies adapt to just about every concievable manipulation you can throw at it,and then the answer has to come through alternative(or additive)mechanisms.Weight training or circuit training does indeed further augment the process,as we all know muscle is metabolically active,but for a select few of us(endomorphic body types),that still does not cut it.Cardio is the ONLY option when all other pathways have been excercized and covered.

 

[Themachine01]

machine: Show me one example of when I asked you for money or pitched my book to you.

An example of asking for money is when you state something obvious or start to get into something then stop and state that its in your book, MEANING, if you want to know more, buy my book. "I would go over this, but, its covered in the first 10 pages or so of my book."

I will admit that you stirred up some curiosity about your thoughts on diet and cardio, did you change my view, no, but I always like to hear other's ideas and approaches to things, when they dont want to charge me for it that is.

You stated in one of your last posts that you could show me, well then shoot me an email and explain yourself. Of course your not going to do it because you are trying to sell your book, and in a round about way, your trying to get me to buy it. I respect trying to make money, but this is a message board where people are trying to learn here.

 

[Spectre]

This thread has not swayed me on thoughts of cardio and diet one bit. What it has reaffirmed is that you need to know, experiment and figure out what works best for you and your own genetics. Our genetics are as diverse as our opinions here and their will never be a concencus, ever.

 

[Nelson Montana]

Sure machine, I'll shoot that right over to you. Anything else? A few recipes maybe? Maybe your car could use a waxing. Need cash? Let me know. And to the other hundred or so people who e-mail me daily, the same offer applys.

You see, the fact that I spent a year compiling over 20 years worth of experience into a book doesn't really matter and I shouldn't expect compensation for it. My sole purpose is to serve you and hopefully gain your acceptance.

Not for nothing, but I'm not the only one here with something to sell.

 

[Nelson Montana]

Huck, I think we're closer than we realize.

I'd say the only difference is in approach. I believe that sustained HR can occur in any ways, includig light weight/short rest type training.

I'm also a believer in uping calorie expenditure thorughout the day with more activity. But running? jogging? Step classes? Riding a staionary bike? The threadmill? Fuck that.

 

[TxRugby_8]

Re: nelson is a fool

unless you plan to do squats for 40 minutes straight and keep your heart rate elevated close to your maximum for the whole time weight training will not strengthen your heart like cardio does. it is duration and elevation of heart rate that counts. i guess nelson knows more than a cardiologist though. the heart is an important muscle dont forget to train it. cardio can lower your bp and increas your efficiancey at using oxygen. who cares what nelson thinks.

Nelson was discussing the effects of aerobics and decrease in body fat and weight. Not about cardiac health.

 

[Animal]

Whoa!

These concepts aren't understood in the land of 'elite'?

'Some key elements and a whole host of biochemical and metabolic events which take place when aerobic exercise is engaged including, but not limited to, raising NA/NE levels, passive glucose uptake, increased insulin sensitivity, raises T3, etc. '

 

[bunkka]

someone define what spatts said for us idiots

brickgirl, nelson- why does running hoard fat?

How is this not catabolic? If you're sprinting, are you not going to be WAAAY over the target heart rate and into the muscle burning zone?

Why wouldn't 40 mins in a decent aerobic/weight loss zone be better?

 

[vinylgroover]

Nelson and Brick Girl, oxidising fat requires oxygen, because of a larger oxygen intake required, cardiovascular training will assist in burning fat.

As you become fitter, your resting pulse will decrease. This reflects a greater stroke volume of the heart, and means that your heart is pumping more blood with each beat. ie, it becomes more efficient.

The fact this thread has gone to five pages indicates the level of stupidity present on these boards.

I don't know if the two of you are trying to impress the rest of us or not with your cavalier approach, but you're both being pretty fucking irresponsible, particularly you Nelson.

Cardiovascular work is beneficial for both fat loss and overall heath and wellbeing. End of story.

I'll quote myself since much else of what i've read here is pseuo-scientific bullshit.

Can anyone who please read this thread disregard anthing that Nelson Montana has said, primarily because it's downright irresponsible, particularly when it comes to the effect of cardio type training on imroving cardiovascular health.

Cardiovascular training can be taking a stroll in the park for 20 minutes.

I have learned one thing in my lfe people, and that is when people like Montana take common sense out of any debate and instead replace it with he said she said bullshit scientific studies, you should switch straight off.

By all means read people, but always bring it back to common sense.

 

[Nelson Montana]

vinylgroover: Why are you being such an asshole? Just because I hold a different opinion than you doesn't mean that I'm irresponsible and just because other members disagree doesn't make them "fucking stupid" -- as you say.

I'd venture to guess I have at least as much experience, at least as presdigeous credentials and I know at least as much about training as you do, so where do you come off wih the imperious attitude?

And besides, you're wrong.

Dialtone. One thing: You're defending areobics as an effective form of fat burning, yet you say you got ripped for a compitition without them. Which is it bro?

 

[vinylgroover]

I've got no probem with debate and conjecture, but when i hear people making claims that weight training can elicit the same if not better cardiovascular benefits than anearobic exercise (which forces the body to recruit more oxygen), it's time to switch off.

NM maintains that cardio work will not extend your life. It may not, there are a host of other factors which will have a hand in that, but it wil certainly improve the quality of it.

Cardio=improved fitness, whether it be in the form of cycling, swimming, jogging, walking, stationary bike........... it doesn't get any simpler than that so what the fuck are we debating.

 

[HULKSTER]

For all of you who think CARDIO IS A WASTE OF TIME AND ENERGY:

Weightlifting exercises your muscles;Cardio exercises your HEART!

If your heart isn't healthy and functioning properly, combined with the effects of juice, you are setting yourself up for some serious heart, kidney and liver problems by your 50's, and maybe even your 40's depending on how long and how great your use of juice and no cardio routine went on for. Smoking and drinking only aggravates these poor conditions. So for all you newbies who drink like fish, smoke like a chimney and don't do cardio as well as juice your brains out ( since your a newbie, and probably do it improperly), you WILL ENCOUNTER HEALTH PROBLEMS. The only remaining question will be to what degree your health problems will be. So for all of you bros who are only concerned about less important health problems such as hair loss and testicular shrinkage, you better realize that there are MUCH MORE IMPORTANT ISSUES. Stop paying so much concern to going bald, and more concern towards your heart and liver.

 

[vinylgroover]

vinylgroover: Why are you being such an asshole? Just because I hold a different opinion than you doesn't mean that I'm irresponsible and just because other members disagree doesn't make them "fucking stupid" -- as you say.

I'd venture to guess I have at least as much experience, at least as presdigeous credentials and I know at least as much about training as you do, so where do you come off wih the imperious attitude?

And besides, you're wrong.

Dialtone. One thing: You're defending areobics as an effective form of fat burning, yet you say you got ripped for a compitition without them. Which is it bro?

Then tell me where the fuck i am wrong in what i have said.

You would have far more 'learned' experience and qualificatons in the respective fields, but i always use common sense as my guide, and the ability to objectively analyse and read, and not just disagree for the sake of creating controversy and then back that up with a host of mumbo jumbo bullshit.

I broke it down very simply for you Nelson in what i said....... so again, tell me where i am wrong.

I'll tell you why you can't.......because what i said was very simply fact, not some wishy washy scientific crap which we can all sit around and debate till the cows come home.

Cardio helps oxidise fat by forcing the body to use more oxygen....simple fact.

Cardio increases cardiovascular fitness which in turn makes the heart more efficient.....simple fact.

I'll tell you again, stop being irresponsible because there are people here who are influenced by what you say.

You may be right in everything else you have said on these boards.....i don't know because i've never read your posts other than on this thread......but you are wrong this time.

 

[nikolai_bolkov]

1. Brickgirl...your pic journal is VERY motivating

2. My workout buddy has some fat on him that is damn stubborn, and I don't know what to tell him...he doesn't even eat that much cuz he doesn't have time...2 meals a day...now that is definitely below his maintenance calories...so the diet approach goes out the window. We lift intensely 4 times a week...he's keeping his mass but not any leaner...

I think cardio is the only thing I can recommend he really step up on...

 

[BrickGirl]

well, his problem is him eating only twice a day, he needs to eat at least 5 times 6 times would be much better. He starving himself with high intensity workouts, his body is probably in survival mode and not wanting to let go of anything, including fat, it knows it isn't going to get anything, so it holds it. fix his diet first.

 

[Nelson Montana]

Mumbo Jumbo scientic crap? ME?!?!

Man, have you got the wrong guy.

This is where most people are mistaken.

They assume that aerobics somehow magically work the heart whereas other forms of exercise don't. Now, I'm not talking about one rep maxes here. But sustained fast pace weight training will elevate HR and do all that good stuff that aerobics does, but it'll do it much better and without the negitive side effects. Is that so hard to understand?

Simple fact: Weight training causes an increse in oxygen uptake. However aerobics increases oxidation more.

Simple fact: Any form of conditioning make the heart more effecient but it will only matter to a point. You can have a very efficient heart and drop dead of a heart attack. More cardio will not tilt the odds in your favor. In fact, the increed pollutans you take in may increase heart damage.

If you think I'm just pulling this out of thin air juust to be controversial you're way off base bro. Why not accept the fact that you learned something and be grateful.

And yes. I'm 49, do no cardio, and my heart is in perfect shape, I have 9% bf, my bp is 120/70, my pulse is 60, my cholesterol is 150 and I can even ruun a 10 minute mile, so tell me how I'm going to drop dead from not exercising my heart?

Dial Tone. Bro. The fact that you had no choice and couldn't do any cardio is irrelevant. You got ripped without it and that proves my point.

Damn, even the people with personal first hand experience proving me right argue with me! Is it me? It's me, isn't it?

 

[40butpumpin]

well, his problem is him eating only twice a day, he needs to eat at least 5 times 6 times would be much better. He starving himself with high intensity workouts, his body is probably in survival mode and not wanting to let go of anything, including fat, it knows it isn't going to get anything, so it holds it. fix his diet first.

Right on.

 

[vinylgroover]

Mumbo Jumbo scientic crap? ME?!?!

Man, have you got the wrong guy.

This is where most people are mistaken.

They assume that aerobics somehow magically work the heart whereas other forms of exercise don't. Now, I'm not talking about one rep maxes here. But sustained fast pace weight training will elevate HR and do all that good stuff that aerobics does, but it'll do it much better and without the negitive side effects. Is that so hard to understand?

Simple fact: Weight training causes an increse in oxygen uptake. However aerobics increases oxidation more.

Simple fact: Any form of conditioning make the heart more effecient but it will only matter to a point. You can have a very efficient heart and drop dead of a heart attack. More cardio will not tilt the odds in your favor. In fact, the increed pollutans you take in may increase heart damage.

Sustained fast pace weight training will do it better?.........yeah thanks Trevor. You've obviously never done any exercise to make an ill-informed comment like that.

I don't give a crap how fast you do your weight training, it simply doesn't force your body to recruit anywhere near as mch oxygen as aerobic activity, whether it be swimmig, running whatever.

What are these negative side-effects you talk about?

yes, you can have a very efficent heart without cardiovascular training.....that's the luck of the draw, but for those who don't, you can improve the functioning of your heart by improving your fitness.......the best way to do that is through cardiovascular conditioning for the simple reasons i mentioned peviously.

How simple was that folks.......and you didn't need to buy my book. End of lesson Nelson.

 

[Nelson Montana]

vinylgroover. You got me. I've never done any exercising.

You have taught me a lesson. I shouldn't waste my time trying to explain something to someone who cant comprehend simple facts.

 

[Animal]

Man am I fucking stupid!

Every school should rescind their degrees in biochemistry and all biochem and exercise physiology books should be re written because 'cardio only exercises the heart.'

That's one of the best stupid statements of all time I've seen on here, yet.

Another classic is that going over your target heartrate is causing catabolism! BHAHA! Take a look at olympic and world track champions in the sprint where they hit and go over their max every fucking day! And they are 220 plus at that level and would put most of you to shame!


But hey, feel free to post where these studies are proving such statements and then tell me where to get dbol,, winny, deca and how I should best cycle it.


Www.animalkits.be

 

[ANABOLICK1]

All I know is that when I did cardio, my muscles looked GODDAMN FLAT !! I know water loss is mostly the reason, but I swear I lost muscle, not fat.

 

[jboldman]

Initially I thoght that Nelson was posting for informational purposes but it is becoming increasingly clear that he is trolling! He certainly knows enough to push the right buttons and clearly enjoys the controvery. The arguments have enough of a germ of truth to them to make them coherent but specious. Although i find the ongoing discussion interesting and amusing, Nelson is really dragging his credibility through the mud by continuing.

good points made:

weight lifting is an exellent way to gain muscle, lose fat,and reduce cardio vascular risk factors.

Diet is an effective way to lose weight.

Cardio is an exellent adjunct to weight trainging for weight loss(fat loss)(nelson does not agree)

Cardio is an exellent way to improve cardio vascular health and thereby decrease CV risk faactors leading to a higher quality of life and extended life expectancy(nelson does not agree)

None of this is rocket science and really should not be all that controversial. If one choses to lose weight without cardio, it is certainly possible. You can also achieve the same goals by incorporating cardio.

Where is the controvery? In nelson's mind. One has to ask why he argues this so vehemently?

jb

 

[Nelson Montana]

And one should ask themselves this:

Why is it that if I present an opposing view, along with a cogent argument and logical assertions, that I'm trolling?

You see boldman, my writings have helped many people -- many not as mch as yours, but still quite a lot.

Anabolick: The reason you're flat is beacue your muscles have lost glycogen. On the other hand, some people think they look "leaner" after cardio because they sweat, are a bit dehydrated and sodium depleted and they can see the muscles more clearly.

I don't want to come off like I'm whining (which I'm sure I'll be accused of) but I'm getting a little tired of all this "piling on." I'm sure he majority of people who enjoy my posts read them, ignore the detractors, and move on. But every day I have to endure accusations and name calling and personal attacks -- often from people with marginal comprehension abilities.
And the reason is clear. Some people don't want to have to think. They just want to believe what they've decided to believe. And they want to find other people who agree with them.

But my job is to call it as I see it. And I've seen quite a lot, thank you.

So agree, or disagree, or go on some thread that discussed the merits of cypionate over enanthate and stay away from topics that may be interesting to the more curious. I'm all for a difference of opinion but I am really sick and tired of these ass-wipes who come on and just shit all over a thread with their hostility.

 

[Peyomp]

Its trolling because of your attitude.

You like to stir up controversy (which is fine), and cause scandals by being rude, because it sells you more books.

Anyone with a double digit IQ can see that Nelson. Personally, I don't care, because the debates are useful to me, even if you are rude as shit.

 

[gtaman]

Some quick points.

Aerobics burn carbs. Not fat. The "targeted heart rate" theory has been proven wrong. When subjected to long duration stress your body is more likely to burn protein before it burns fat

Your credentials for asserting this are what? Did anyone ever overtrain on 30 minutes of treadmill walking? I doubt any of us are counseling marathon running.

Having more muscle burns more fat. Aerobics break down muscle.

Aerobics burn calories. If calorie deficit is high, some muscle as well as some fat will be burned. The only way around that is diet and drugs, with a heavier emphasis on drugs the more you want to cheat the basic laws of biochemistry. "Keeping muscle" is not so hard if you decrease carb calories gradually.

The "muscle burning more fat" theory is largely a myth. Larger bodies (even if they are fat, not muscle) require more calories to maintain current weight (and BF) levels. Muscle does not "burn" fat in any significant amount. Just ask anyone who is pretty sedentary outside of a little HIT lifting. They're usually fat. Few people can get all the exercise they need in three weightlifting sessions a week.

Below a certain BF %, dietary adjustments are needed to lose any more fat, but at first, extra cardio is very effective in getting you there, and long term, most people are bad at accomplishing this with diet alone (or drugs that suppress appetite).

See www.ultimatedietsecrets.com for more info... you might learn something.

Ultimately you cannot reject the need for more exercise if your goal is to burn fat. Nelson, you turn your weight sessions into cardio workouts (circuit training) and then claim that cardio is useless. I suppose this is you trying to sound cool for the 15-year-olds and weekend lifters to whom your book is targeted.

You're doing cardio. And it all comes down to duration, frequency, and intensity. Calories are being burned.

Why should we listen to you again?

 

[HULKSTER]

HEY NELSON:

Whatever happened to that thieving jerkoff MohawkMuscle?

 

[Fukkenshredded]

Uh...Nelson is right on this one, guys.

And I personally don't see any highbrow attitude from him on this thread.

How can a recruited muscle distinguish a certain exercise as illegitimate?

Why does the heart burn faster when we get on a treadmill?

Is it because it knows there is a treadmill involved? Or is it because we are recruiting our muscles in a way that exceeds normal day to day activity?

Hmm. Does weightlifting require more oxygen, hence more blood, pumped to the recruited muscle?

Okay then.

So a sustained regimen should elevate the heart rate. And it does. Squats and sprints are practically synonomous.

Those of you who think you are getting lean without cardio are incorrectly defining cardio. ALL exercise is cardiovascular. Its just that some exercise puts more emphasis on muscular resistance, and other exercise emphasises repeated recruitment.

Nelson already correctly stated this.

And his 'attitude' is simply the knowledge that he is correct. There is such a thing as being right.

 

[naturally anabolic]

i like playing in the sandbox does that count?

 

[kronk]

Do any of you ever do cardio for fun? Like taking a hike, or going canoeing for the weekend, or on a bike ride with your kids?

It may not do anything for your physique, but it could work wonders for your attitude.

Go outside and play.

Damn straight Spatts.

 

[Nelson Montana]

Absolutely spatts. But that wasn't the
issue. In fact, the issue unfortunately went beyond the risks/beneifts of cardio and into a barrage of disparagment -- as has been the case too often on these boards lately.

Fshredded, thank you -- not for being in agreement, but for articulating your response so well. And the point you bring up is invaluable. It's time for people to realize that just because an activity or a piece of equipment has the term "aerobic" to it, the heart isn't going to suddenly react in a manner any differently than other forms of exercise.

And regarding opinions: Everyone is entitled to them, but they are not all equal. If someone believes the sun revolves around the earth, that's an "opinion" and they're entitled to it. But it's still wrong.


Let's try and keep the debates an exercise in logic -- not a free-for-all of sarcasim.

Okay, I'm gong to take spatts advice. It's up to 50 degrees in New York and it's time to go out and ride my bike -- you know, the kind that actually goes somewhere.

 

[sk*]

Absolutely spatts. But that wasn't the
issue. In fact, the issue unfortunately went beyond the risks/beneifts of cardio and into a barrage of disparagment -- as has been the case too often on these boards lately.

Fshredded, thank you -- not for being in agreement, but for articulating your response so well. And the point you bring up is invaluable. It's time for people to realize that just because an activity or a piece of equipment has the term "aerobic" to it, the heart isn't going to suddenly react in a manner any differently than other forms of exercise.

And regarding opinions: Everyone is entitled to them, but they are not all equal. If someone believes the sun revolves around the earth, that's an "opinion" and they're entitled to it. But it's still wrong.


Let's try and keep the debates an exercise in logic -- not a free-for-all of sarcasim.

Okay, I'm gong to take spatts advice. It's up to 50 degrees in New York and it's time to go out and ride my bike -- you know, the kind that actually goes somewhere.

Well, most people here workout for about 45-60mins right? Out of that time around 80% is probably rest. Seriously, how many minutes of activity is there in lifting?

No doubt that lifting burns calories though, question is weather it is enough or not? Now maybe if you said something like go to the gym for 4hours ... that would change the views on your opinions, but then again it would raise other conflits.

Just my opinion though.

-sk

 

[Golfer18--old]

Nelson I guess you were going to work on that bike with your shirt off on your website?


Cardio works wonders. It never amazes me that all these studies are posted but that doesn't mean jack shit unless every person has the same genetics. What works for me might not work for you. So lets stop with the bullshit on who is wrong and who is right. We all know what works for us. Pointless thread that will never be answered because everyone is different.

 

[Hannibal]

Do any of you ever do cardio for fun? Like taking a hike, or going canoeing for the weekend, or on a bike ride with your kids?

It may not do anything for your physique, but it could work wonders for your attitude.

Go outside and play.

That's the second best form of cardio I can think of...

It's funny I was thinking that when we went into the gym today and saw all those people doing cardio. Granted it was early in the mornin...and some of their kids were sleepin. However, you know later in the day there will be people in there doing what they could be doing at the park...or outside anywhere.

 

[vinylgroover]

And one should ask themselves this:

Why is it that if I present an opposing view, along with a cogent argument and logical assertions, that I'm trolling?

You see boldman, my writings have helped many people -- many not as mch as yours, but still quite a lot.

I've got no problem with people posessing an opposing view, but when that view is irresponsible and detrimental to people's health and wrong in fact, i get fucking pissed off.....hence my attitude.

You have proceeded to go on and on with this nonsense......why? because any admission from you that you are wrong will be detrimental to your livelihood of selling your books......irrespective of the consequences to the health of those you say you're trying to help.

3 times i asked you to explain where my simple 2 line statements on the benefis of cardiovascular work were wrong and three times you declined to answer.

I'm finished with this so don't bother responding, but i will reiterate my words to all those here, always use common sense when digesting any information from these boards.

 

[jboldman]

Well Montana, it is trolling when the subject has been covered in detail on this very board recently with essentially the same results and you repost it. now either you are incredibly naive or not bright enough to realize that it would generate a controversy or you are trolling? which is it?

Pushing your book here again? Frankly I do not care how many books/articles you have or have not written, so what? If I disagree and do so in a civil and logical way readily willing to back everything i say up with studies or other evidence, do not resort to callilng you a dumbshit asswipe simply because you disagree with me unlike you who are ever ready to resort to name calling and ridicule.

You know, i kept asking myself, is he really that dense that he can not see the different points being made here and that some of these points are not so dissimilar......... And once again, i have to come to the conclusion that montana is either a common garden variety troll or just likes the limelight.

Sigh, I knew I should have just let it go, I guess i must be guilty in taking some kind of perverse pleasure in pointing out the numerous logical fallacies and just plain untruths. Its too bad you are so predictable, when you get pressed you resort to calling people names, pointing out your numerous writings proving that you obviously must be right , anything but actually backing up what you say with something that looks like a sound intellectual argument.

Little smiley's and gold stars for those that agree with you and namecalling, non-sequitors, general bad manners for those that do not.

C'mon Montana, I'm not a bad guy trying to bust your chops just to bust your chops, i just do not happen to agree with you that there is no place for aerobics in bodybuilding and am willing to cogently argue it. This could be a win win for everyone with a chance to learn something if you would just step up without the immature behavior and make your points. And don't forget, we all lif weights here!


jb

 

[Nelson Montana]

A rose by any other name...

Name calling comes in many forms -- irresponsible, troll, asswipe...it's all the same really.

To vg and jb: Look, I'm not going to state my credentials, because obviously you're not impressed. And I'm not going to reiterate the evidence stated because obviously you don't get it.

vg: Your attempt at being the savior of the board against the dastardly Montana is actually kind of funny. Ill conceived conviction -- gotta love it.

jb: I always thought that a troll was someone with marginal knowledge who came on the boards mearly to distrupt the conversation. They have nothing to offer other than to say that "the other guy" is wrong. I'll let the members decide who's is guilty of that.

If previously conducted studies are the only thing you consider conclusive evidence, why are you even here?

 

[jboldman]

Nelson:

Hmmm, my definition of an internet troll is one who posts false or provacative information simply to generate large numbers of responses.If you like, I will wihdraw my troll analogy if it so offends you. You are right, I am not intersted in your credentials, I know them and actually am impressed with them, they are mostly why i am so disappointed in your lack of abillity to argue coherently without lapsing into name calling, innuendo, and speculation. If I did not think you were a knowledgeable well versed and significant player, I would have long since stopped wasting my time and yours.

clearly scientific studies are not the be all end all of what we are lookig to learn here but they certainly can be usefull, eg,if a well designed study finds that light intensisity exercise performed on an empty(fasted) stomach preferentially uses fat preferentially as a fuel substrate, it would be logical to conclude that exercise in a fasted state burns fat preferentially over carbohydrates. When they ar two dozen similar studies, one might start seeing a preponderance of evidence and start thinking that this might be actually so.

As I see it, your point is that by using resistance training and diet alone an athlete can lose weight and come into superlative bodybuilding shape. I do not think anyone disagrees with that. on the other side, there are some of us, perhaps even the preponderance of us that think the addition of a well thought out proram of cardio added to the resistance training and diet can be of benenfit to bring about the same results with concommitant improvement in overall cardiovascular health as an added benefit. No one is suggesting dropping the weight training or diet or that weight training and diet are not effective, we are simply stating that there can be more than one path to the same goal. As I said, this is not rocket science, although there are many studies and anecdotal evidence on both sides. It would be exceptionally easy to just agree to agree.

You can espouse your approach in your books and articles and folks are free to try both and see which works for them. For me, cardio is an essential for my goals. For someone else, it may not matter.

So you see, I agree with YOUR core point, the problem i am having is why you have such difficulty in seeing MY point??


jb

 

[sucker for supplements]

WantobeDeisal: Thanks bro. You saved me a lot of time.

The truth is, you can't possibly run enough to make a difference in calorie expenditure to induce a significant loss of fat.

Bollocks mate.

you normally know your shit, but this time you're wrong.

i lost 7lbs in 14 days simply from the 'mill and bike in morning sessions last 45 - 60 mins 4 times a week. 500 cals less a day - but managed to keep my prot intake roughly the same.

i defy you when you say it wont do anything, i fucking did it!

(ive put 2lbs back on , and you know how im gonna get rid of it?.........that's right .)

 

[hardasnails73]

ok I'm going to put my 2 sense in here. I have been able to maintain a low perecentage of body fat year 5-6 % round with minimal cardio. I have been some times to go 8 weeks with out it and still maintain same current body fat and get stronger So theoriectically it is possible to do but it does take incredible discpline and constant monitering. But is it healthy, i don;t think so becuase as you body grows so does your heart have to adapt in order to keep the blood pumping to newly created muscle tissue. It all comes down to every ones body is different. What works for one may not work for another. One just has to experiment o find out what there nitch. As for people who use steroids I would recommend becuase not only does your body have to adapt to the new weight but also your heart. Every one has a natural comfort level to carry around. one year i was 230 at 6-7% and was hufing and pufing walking around but i was looking good, but was I healthy NO. For people that do volume traiing cardio may be cut back or even stop becuase it is more like a cardio vascaular workout as long as a weight training workout. Any good body builder knows to get shredded they forget one major thing and it shows incompeition. Try posing for 2 30 minutes session a day and see how exhausted you are from it while on low carbs, training, and daily work schedule, Any good bodybuidler is ready 2-3 weeks out and should stop cardio and pose pose pose and stay tight on diet and will continure to get harder each session. Again this is not norm for people. Just have to find out what works for your body type and go with it .


Hardasnails

 

[Nelson Montana]

jb: Well, now we're getting a little closer. And yeah, this ain't rocket science so all we have is our reasoning and that's what I've presented.

You admit, it's been proven cardio isnt necessary for fat loss. Agreed.

You also say that some people use it for cariovascular benifits. I say it isn't necessary if you weight train in a variety of methods and lead an active lifestyle. Maybe you somewhat agree.

This is the thing:

You, and many others who seems to share your opinion, look at it as "why not?" I look at it as a "why?" -- considering all the negitive reprecussions that come from traditional aerobic activity. Is there a better way? I say yes.

If some people feel better doing it, fine. But people feel better by not eating meat, or praying, or watching reality shows -- none of which is particulary logical or beneficial.

That's my whole stance: We all have a finite amount of energy expenditure from which we can recover. Is aerobic activity worth that expenditure, or can an alternative be used which produces the same benefits, in addition to other benefits, without the negitive side effects? Again, I say yes.

I've outlined the basic premise. But I'll repeat (for the 1000000000h time) I am not here to spoon feed every bit of evidence I've ammassed over the last 30 years to everyone who requests it on demand. And they they pissed if I don't comply! I only have so much time in the day and I do my best. If that isn't enough I'm sorry.
I'd like to see how comprehensive you or anyone else can be when you have dozens of e-mails to answer everyday (for free) along with consultaions, sessions, research, writing, and managing a career completely seperate from bodybuilding. Hey! Maybe I should write a book!

sfs: I nver said aerobics won't cause a weight loss nor is it the crux of the debate.

 

[satchboogie]

NELSON....

you're the man!
dont let nobody tell you differently.

one thing though....

do you consider a moderate pace walk for 45 minutes cardio?
heartrate at around 50%mhr?

 

[Nelson Montana]

Techncally, anything that requires oxegen uptake is cardio and as far as I know, every activity requires oxegen.

Actually, walking is more a fat burning activity than running.(Which utilizes mostly carbs). So walking 5 miles and running 5 miles will both burn a comparable amount of calories. (Walking the same distance takes more time for those of you who are ready to shout back "How can you say walking burns as many calories as running!!!??????!!!!) Yet the walking is likely to burn more fat.

The problem is, it would take a hell of a lot of walking to make a visable difference! So the key is still to get into shape and build muscle through resistance training and then add activities such as walking, biking, dancing, playing sports, etc, as a part of your life.

Jogging on a threadmill or riding a stationary bike in a gym on a beautiful sunny day has no place in the life of a sane man.

 

[satchboogie]

NELSON...

thanks for the feedback but not so clear yet...

allow me to rephrase..

would a 45 minute walk at a moderate pace induce catabolicism in a bodybuilder and ultimately prevent maximum progress?

 

[jboldman]

jb: Well, now we're getting a little closer. And yeah, this ain't rocket science so all we have is our reasoning and that's what I've presented.

>>Agreed

You admit, it's been proven cardio isnt necessary for fat loss. Agreed.

>>agreed

You also say that some people use it for cariovascular benifits. I say it isn't necessary if you weight train in a variety of methods and lead an active lifestyle. Maybe you somewhat agree.

>>I agree with that also, although moderate cardio(active lifestyle?) can a positive addition, like your bike ride thru manhattan(or whereever)

This is the thing:

You, and many others who seems to share your opinion, look at it as "why not?" I look at it as a "why?" -- considering all the negitive reprecussions that come from traditional aerobic activity. Is there a better way? I say yes.

>>There are many ways to do cardio including walking, cycling, snowshoing, the list goes on forvever and not all are negatively impacting your joints. My problem with adding extra weight training is overtraining, a concept that i am painfully aware of. If you are suggesting say additional light weights high reps for a sustained period of time, right on, as you point out your body does not care if it is on a bike or doing light weight leg presses, same effect.


If some people feel better doing it, fine. But people feel better by not eating meat, or praying, or watching reality shows -- none of which is particulary logical or beneficial.

>>this is where you stop making sense, likening going for a five mile walk or five mile bike ride to watching a reality show, come back to us now.

That's my whole stance: We all have a finite amount of energy expenditure from which we can recover. Is aerobic activity worth that expenditure, or can an alternative be used which produces the same benefits, in addition to other benefits, without the negitive side effects? Again, I say yes.

>>I think this is just where we agree to disagree, i believe that there are a large number of us that have tried just WT and diet and it was just not effective for whatever reason to achieve our goals. For me and many others apparently, the addition of a reasonable amount of cardio enables us to lose that extra X% of bodyfat within a diet that we can live with and still train to the desired level of intensity that brings about the desired results.

I've outlined the basic premise. But I'll repeat (for the 1000000000h time) I am not here to spoon feed every bit of evidence I've ammassed over the last 30 years to everyone who requests it on demand. And they they pissed if I don't comply! I only have so much time in the day and I do my best. If that isn't enough I'm sorry.
I'd like to see how comprehensive you or anyone else can be when you have dozens of e-mails to answer everyday (for free) along with consultaions, sessions, research, writing, and managing a career completely seperate from bodybuilding. Hey! Maybe I should write a book!

>>I think this post is a great response on your part, clear concise, and informative. I really much prefer to discuss the merits of the question at hand without the perjoratives and my respect quotient for you goes up after all it is not written that all must agree on all approaches, the important thing is that we all continue to personally grow towards our goals striving to improve the best way we know how. To the extent that you facilitate that, i applaude you, when i think you might be wrong, i mention it!

I also congratulate you on dealing with the enormous amount of emails you get and the other work pressures and appreciate your taking time to have these interesting discussions.

You know that book thing might be something you should look in to! GRIN

jb

 

[jboldman]

BTW Nelson, you going to the NOC?


jb

 

[Nelson Montana]

satch: No, a 45 minute walk isn't catabolic. BB's get paranoid that any exertion other than the gym is going to hold back gains! Dont worry about it.

jb: I tend not to go to the shows. I'm not very interested in physique competitions and you never know who you're going to run into. Believe it or not, there are people who don't like me! : )

My buddy Rick Collins (author of LEGAL MUSCLE) asked me if I wanted to hook up but I still don't know. Maybe.

 

[satchboogie]

NELSON...

envy will bring out the evil in people.
dont let em fuck with you.

i plan on getting your book but finances are really tight right now.

 

[DTOX]

It's ironic that bodybuilders love to workout every single muscle in the entire body...except the heart.

 

[jboldman]

My two sons bought us tickets(we went about 6 years ago) and we are going down to get motivated and eat at Carmine's!

jb

satch: No, a 45 minute walk isn't catabolic. BB's get paranoid that any exertion other than the gym is going to hold back gains! Dont worry about it.

jb: I tend not to go to the shows. I'm not very interested in physique competitions and you never know who you're going to run into. Believe it or not, there are people who don't like me! : )

My buddy Rick Collins (author of LEGAL MUSCLE) asked me if I wanted to hook up but I still don't know. Maybe.

 

[ChillyDog]

I don't give a crap how fast you do your weight training, it simply doesn't force your body to recruit anywhere near as mch oxygen as aerobic activity, whether it be swimmig, running whatever.

How can you say that? You obvioulsely have never weight trained with intensity.

Why don't you try the meltdown program by Don Alessi.
http://www.testosterone.net/nation_articles/173melt.html (yea I know terrible t-mag but its a good program)

If you have the guts to follow the program and do so correctly you'll realize how superior it is running, swimming or other cardio... and don't say anything till you try it!

 

[gwl9dta4]

It's ironic that bodybuilders love to workout every single muscle in the entire body...except the heart.

I can't believe someone said that. That statement shows an appaling lack of understanding of fitness basics.

Please think about what you say, do you really believe that lifting weight in a circuit type fashion will cause you to somehow not stress the cardiaovascual system? YES or NO?

If you answer this question correctly, you will see Nelson's point.

 

[Whatmatters]

I'm sorry but i have to totally agree with nelson on this one....and for all you losers that do want to sit on your asses and collect all of his knowledge for free....fuck off! i'm sick of people sitting around waiting for a hand out....
....and as far as weight training not being beneficial to the cardiovascular system....you have some serious learning to do...
weight training benefits that heart greatly, maybe you won't get the increase in VO2 because the size of the heart may not increase as dramatically, but since the muscle is still being stressed it does become stronger, and there will be increased capillarization=more blood to heart=healthier heart.

my question is that everyone is saying "cardio for your heart" and "live onger with cardio" where are the studies that show a linear correlation between miles biked and years lived???
WM

 

[Whatmatters]

Who's in for some....


WM"Just say NO to Aerobics!"

....t-shirts??
WM

 

[Debaser]

Okay I've seen this argument on here plenty of times. Here are some points I'd like to throw out there for Nelson:

1. You say weight-training is a more efficient/better way to burn calories. However, I train 3 days a week (intensely), am I going to add 4-6 ADDITIONAL sessions? This is ludicrous and you would obviously overtrain.

2. I follow DC's recommendations. He is a strong believer in using cardio to burn off bodyfat, and not alter his diet much, except for perhaps an earlier carb cut-off time. If I stop ingesting carbs (or only trace amounts) after 5PM, then my glycogen stores are depleted by the time I wake up the next morning. Then I wake up and do 45 minutes walking on an incline treadmill. I will burn bodyfat as a result of the lacking glycogen. He has personally ripped up many people, by just upping their cardio sessions. Explain this for me. He has also witnessed many a bodybuilder LOSE TONS OF MUSCLE BY LOWERING THEIR CALORIES TO BURN FAT. By not dipping into a caloric deficit, he has had several trainees maintain of even add some muscle while they're cutting. And if you say anything about roids again, I'll laugh my ass off because you seem to ignore this every time someone posts about his methods: "the vast majority of his trainees are clean"

 

[gwl9dta4]

Okay I've seen this argument on here plenty of times. Here are some points I'd like to throw out there for Nelson:

1. You say weight-training is a more efficient/better way to burn calories. However, I train 3 days a week (intensely), am I going to add 4-6 ADDITIONAL sessions? This is ludicrous and you would obviously overtrain.

2. I follow DC's recommendations. He is a strong believer in using cardio to burn off bodyfat, and not alter his diet much, except for perhaps an earlier carb cut-off time. If I stop ingesting carbs (or only trace amounts) after 5PM, then my glycogen stores are depleted by the time I wake up the next morning. Then I wake up and do 45 minutes walking on an incline treadmill. I will burn bodyfat as a result of the lacking glycogen. He has personally ripped up many people, by just upping their cardio sessions. Explain this for me. He has also witnessed many a bodybuilder LOSE TONS OF MUSCLE BY LOWERING THEIR CALORIES TO BURN FAT. By not dipping into a caloric deficit, he has had several trainees maintain of even add some muscle while they're cutting. And if you say anything about roids again, I'll laugh my ass off because you seem to ignore this every time someone posts about his methods: "the vast majority of his trainees are clean"

So how do you burn fat off your frame without dipping into a calorie deficit? This ought to be good, maybe he used magic? With that one comment you totally discredited yourself.

 

[gwl9dta4]

Okay I've seen this argument on here plenty of times. Here are some points I'd like to throw out there for Nelson:

1. You say weight-training is a more efficient/better way to burn calories. However, I train 3 days a week (intensely), am I going to add 4-6 ADDITIONAL sessions? This is ludicrous and you would obviously overtrain.

It's pretty clear that insted of workign harder you can accomplish this with dietary manipulation.

2. I follow DC's recommendations. He is a strong believer in using cardio to burn off bodyfat, and not alter his diet much, except for perhaps an earlier carb cut-off time. If I stop ingesting carbs (or only trace amounts) after 5PM, then my glycogen stores are depleted by the time I wake up the next morning. Then I wake up and do 45 minutes walking on an incline treadmill. I will burn bodyfat as a result of the lacking glycogen. He has personally ripped up many people, by just upping their cardio sessions. Explain this for me. He has also witnessed many a bodybuilder LOSE TONS OF MUSCLE BY LOWERING THEIR CALORIES TO BURN FAT.

The only reason the many a bodybuilder lost muscle is because they created too big a calorie deficit, simply put they fucked up their diet. Period, end of story.



By not dipping into a caloric deficit, he has had several trainees maintain of even add some muscle while they're cutting. And if you say anything about roids again, I'll laugh my ass off because you seem to ignore this every time someone posts about his methods: "the vast majority of his trainees are clean"

This i commented on in my other post, you seem to think there is some magic at work here. Calorie deficit is the only thing that will cause the usage of fat, too big a deficit and you loose more muscle, too little and you loose fat slowly, it's a balancing act, real simple.

 

[Debaser]

Well, you might call "using glycogen depletion to your advantage" magic, but I would much rather refer to it as "science." When I'm cutting on DC's diet, I am eating more comfortably (i.e. not bloated constantly) but I am in no way in a deficit.

 

[CanadianBro]

I guess after reading through the 180+ posts, I will finally post.

My experience over the past 17+ years of training, coaching and
mentoring has proven that cardiovascular activities such as
jogging, running, cycling, stationary bikes and treadmills are
extremely vital to keep the heart and vascular system at peak
performance HOWEVER....

These types of activities are not the IDEAL when it comes to
burning fat and retaining muscle mass.

Let's face it, most of us here are interested in maintaining a
physique that consists of the maximum amount of lean muscle
mass combined with a minimum amount of fat.

This type of physique is best achieved by combining a
structured nutritional program, a consistent resistance training
routine and high intensity cardiovascular exercise.

I personally have found that athletes that combine these
3 factors in their personal training routine achieve the desired
results of maximum muscle mass and minimum fat.

In fact, not one of the professional athletes I consulted with
ever did cardio exercises like jogging or cycling.

Their routines consisted of a clean diet, a intense resistance
training regimen and high intensity cardiovascular training
(wind sprints).

Also, if you look at the difference between a marathon runner
and a sprinter you will notice the difference in physiques.

Through their high intensity training routines, sprinters are able
to sustain their high amount of muscle mass and hold a minimal
amount of fat.

While the marathon runner also has very low amounts of body
fat, he is not able to carry the same amount of muscle mass as
a sprinter.

So to sum things up...running, cycling and jogging WILL allow
you to shed the fat. There is no doubt about it HOWEVER...
these types of activities WILL NOT allow you to sustain the
amount of muscle you currently have.

 

[DTOX]

I can't believe someone said that. That statement shows an appaling lack of understanding of fitness basics.

Please think about what you say, do you really believe that lifting weight in a circuit type fashion will cause you to somehow not stress the cardiaovascual system? YES or NO?

If you answer this question correctly, you will see Nelson's point.

Hahahahaha!!!

When was the last time anyone saw a BB doing circuit training!!!

I stand by my statement. Next time I see a BB in the gym doing circuit training for 45 min. then I'll edit my post!

 

[satchboogie]

180 plus posts and its my turn.

5"11, 190, 8%-10% bodyfat all year long.

the bottom line is.......

YOU DO NEED CARDIO!!!!

but the timing of it is critical and so is the intensity.

the only cardio i do (if you wanna call it that) is a moderate pace walk for 45 minutes about 4 times a week and at night. after that, i will not consume any carbs. so usually, the following 2 meals are high protein and little fat. again, the TIMING is critical here as you wanna deplete glycogen levels before sleep.

also, twice a week i will jump rope as a.m cardio. 1 minute sets. 1 minute rest. 10 sets equals 20 minutes of increased heartrate and an awesome short explosive session.
again, the TIMING here is critical as you're more likely to burn pure fat first thing in the a.m.

 

[Nelson Montana]

slobber: You inadvertantly proved the anti-aerobics stance. Jumping rope does NOT fit into the definition of aerobic. Aerobic is along sustained, low intensity activity. Robe jumping for one minute intervals is most definitely ANerobic -- closer to weight lifting where the HR jumps up quickly but only for a short while, which is MUCH BETTER for heart strength. Weight training IS cardio! (but prentend I didn't say that or all the pro-aerobicisers heads will explode).

DTOX: Get ready to retract your statement. I've spoken to many pros and although some still engage in aerobics (nobody said they were smart) many of them use a "circut training" type of workout. Higher reps, short rest etc.

Using the methods of the pros is absurd anyway. Their goals is to look good on a particular night, by any means possible. That has nothing to do with what most BB's do.

 

[Debaser]

I'm not ready to retract my statement, however, Nelson...because you never responded to it. DC has made lots of people ripped by keeping them on the diet that gave them all their muscle, and using cardio in the morning in a glycogen depleted state to take off bodyfat. He must be doing a pretty good job at it, considering he's personally trained hundreds (most of them clean) and I haven't heard one dissatisfied customer yet. But I guess you're right, cardio doesn't work. My bodyfat must be "magically" disappearing.

 

[Nelson Montana]

spatts: I'd say that fast, intense rope jumping for one minute intervals with one minute rest in-between "sets" will burn more calories than jogging for 20 minutes. No doubt about it.

Debasser: You're missing the point. And I don't feel like explaining it again.

 

[Debaser]

Wow, that's a pretty effective way of skirting the issue.

How is it missing the point? How about you just humor me. Considering your point is that aerobic work is ineffective, and that I am arguing against that by saying DC has made countless people ripped by merely upping their cardio and keeping their diet pretty much the same, I don't see what leg you have to stand on. Do you even understand the glycogen issue? Oh wait I forgot, nutrient timing doesn't work according to you. Glycogen and insulin must not exist, or be pertinent in any way. But since it works for me and all these other trainees, we'll continue to do it. I fail to understand how the fat comes off if it doesn't work, however.

 

[satchboogie]

read my post 4 posts up from this one about JUMP ROPE.

thank you!

 

[jboldman]

WhooHa! <GRIN>

slobber: You inadvertantly proved the anti-aerobics stance. Jumping rope does NOT fit into the definition of aerobic. Aerobic is along sustained, low intensity activity. Robe jumping for one minute intervals is most definitely ANerobic -- closer to weight lifting where the HR jumps up quickly but only for a short while, which is MUCH BETTER for heart strength. Weight training IS cardio! (but prentend I didn't say that or all the pro-aerobicisers heads will explode).

DTOX: Get ready to retract your statement. I've spoken to many pros and although some still engage in aerobics (nobody said they were smart) many of them use a "circut training" type of workout. Higher reps, short rest etc.

Using the methods of the pros is absurd anyway. Their goals is to look good on a particular night, by any means possible. That has nothing to do with what most BB's do.

 

[DTOX]

DTOX: Get ready to retract your statement. I've spoken to many pros and although some still engage in aerobics (nobody said they were smart) many of them use a "circut training" type of workout. Higher reps, short rest etc.

Like I said, I'll edit my post when I *see it firsthand* in the gym.

And I have a feeling I'll be waiting a longggggggg time.

 

[sk*]

I'd bump this but it would result in more fights.

OOPS, did I say that out loud?

-sk

 

[Debaser]

If Nelson saw the diet I was having right now that's causing me to lose fat, he'd have to have his foot removed from his mouth with a crowbar. I'm probably eating more than many guys here do while "bulking."

 

[Nelson Montana]

If Nelson saw the diet I was having right now that's causing me to lose fat, he'd have to have his foot removed from his mouth with a crowbar. I'm probably eating more than many guys here do while "bulking."



So what's your point? You're obviously still burning more calories than you're ingesting regardless of how much you're eating -- unless you somehow managed to re-write the laws of biochemistry.

Are you suggesting it's due to aerobics? That's a different story. Just remember; You can drive from New York to New Jersy by way of Chicago...but that doesn't mean it's the most efficient route.

 

[MUSTANG_18]

Just my opinion but I personally feel cardio is a must in ANYONES shedule...Not only to help maintain a lower body fat for some people hut just to maintain an overall healthy lifestyle...I personally feel like total shit if I neglect cardio for a longer period of time so even when I am bulking I still try to do it at least 2-3 times a week of a light job on the treadmill for at least 15-20...gotta keep that heart healthy As much as you guys may hate it now, it will pay off in the long run

M18

 

[Euphanasia]

Is stairmaster cardio considerered a form of cardio? WHen i do 500 calories on the treadmill compared to that of the stairmaster, the stairmaster is 10x easier

 

[Debaser]

Wow Nelson considering you must have ignored it 4 times, let's see if you ignore it a fifth:

When I cut out carbs in the afternoon, my glycogen depletes slowly until I am fully depleted in the morning. Then in the morning the cardio directly burns fat as fuel, in the absence of the glycogen. Are you saying this isn't true? Also, if nutrient timing did not matter, as you've said many times, then why is this practice so effective?

 

[Nelson Montana]

Wow Nelson considering you must have ignored it 4 times, let's see if you ignore it a fifth:


..........................................

Ignore what? I believe I've addressed each point. But some people get pissed unless you respond to their every whim.

.........................................

When I cut out carbs in the afternoon, my glycogen depletes slowly until I am fully depleted in the morning.
.......................................
When you cut carbs in the afternoon you're depleted by morning??? You lost me. Do you mean you cut in the morning and are depleted by afternoon? If so, you're wrong. You'll still have available glycogen.
..........................................

Then in the morning the cardio directly burns fat as fuel, in the absence of the glycogen. Are you saying this isn't true? ...................................
Do you mean you just eat carbs at breakfast?
At any rate, the idea that the body uses fat for fuel is kind of silly. Of course it does. Always has. But the preferred fuel s carbs for high energy activity. Without carbs, you release ketones and burn muscle along with fat. That's a fact.

........................................

Also, if nutrient timing did not matter, as you've said many times, then why is this practice so effective?

...................................

Now we're on nutrient timing? I'm not sure what that has to do with this, but okay. But cutting carbs isn't really nutrient timing in the regard in which I refer to it. If you're going to argue a point, please understand it first. There's no way to address a misconception.

 

[Debaser]

I'm not sure why you're making this so complicated. I thought it was pretty clear.

Let's say I stop eating carbs at 3PM. My glycogen will slowly deplete. By the time I wake up the NEXT MORNING, it will be fully depleted. Now I'll do cardio (45 min to 1 hr slow paced incline walking) before I eat. Since there's no available glycogen, fat will be burned directly.

 

[jboldman]

Save your breath debaser, this is an argument that you can not win. Neson does not believe in preferential substrate utilization even though i have posted studies.

jb

I'm not sure why you're making this so complicated. I thought it was pretty clear.

Let's say I stop eating carbs at 3PM. My glycogen will slowly deplete. By the time I wake up the NEXT MORNING, it will be fully depleted. Now I'll do cardio (45 min to 1 hr slow paced incline walking) before I eat. Since there's no available glycogen, fat will be burned directly.

 

[Fukkenshredded]

Debaser--

You probably won't be all the way into ketosis. However, a couple or three capsules of r-ala will help get you there. I have posted here about a.m. sprints with ala and sauna. Now that gets a guy ripped.

Sprints and light, high rep squats are the best exercises to get ripped. It's just that simple.

Wait...I can get more accurate than that: Sprints and high rep squats are the best exercises for ME to get ripped.

There we go.

 

[Nelson Montana]

Darn. And just when I thought jboldman and myself were on the same page. Dude, when are you going to realize that just because somebody did a study, that doesn't make the conclusions irrufutable proof!?

Debasser: There are 2 points that are arguable.

One: Even though you did not eat any carbs for 16 hours or so, that doesnt mean there isn't any glycogen in your bloodstream.

BUT IF...that were true, you would be in a very catabolic state.

Two: This notion that the body will burn fat instead of carbs is simply not true. It will use ANY available source, and that includes protein. (In fact, it would prefer protein but that's another lengthy explanation) At any rate, the use of protein as an energy source poses two problems. One -- it increases urea in the bloodstream. And two -- muscle is an available souce of protein.

Now maybe your regime is working for you, but it seems awfully drastic. No carbs at all for most of the day? What do you have for a bedtime snack? Lamb chops? One hour of aerobics prior to eating and working out? That too seems excessive and ultimately unnecessary.

BUT WAIT A MINUTE! Did you say walking???

I wouldn't consider walking what most people call CARDIO. So once again, you're debating different issues. Walking is definitely a fat buning activity. But I'm not going to wake up early and go to a gym to do it. Walking is just a part of life. I recommend it highly.

 

[satchboogie]

slobber: You inadvertantly proved the anti-aerobics stance. Jumping rope does NOT fit into the definition of aerobic. Aerobic is along sustained, low intensity activity. Robe jumping for one minute intervals is most definitely ANerobic -- closer to weight lifting where the HR jumps up quickly but only for a short while, which is MUCH BETTER for heart strength. Weight training IS cardio! (but prentend I didn't say that or all the pro-aerobicisers heads will explode).

.

god bless you NELSON.

after reading your posts i decided to cut out cardio ENTIRELY!

the only form of training other than weights is jump roping routines in one minute intervals.

was 192, 16% bodyfat on January 20th, 2002.

now 192, 9% bodyfat on March 25th, 2003.

IN JUST UNDER 10 WEEKS!

sustanon and thermos were along side but i owe you some of that brother.

thanks again.

 

[FreakMonster]

Debaser--

You probably won't be all the way into ketosis. However, a couple or three capsules of r-ala will help get you there. I have posted here about a.m. sprints with ala and sauna. Now that gets a guy ripped.

Sprints and light, high rep squats are the best exercises to get ripped. It's just that simple.

Wait...I can get more accurate than that: Sprints and high rep squats are the best exercises for ME to get ripped.

There we go.

How many sprints do you do and for how long?

 

[AlbinoAssassin]

From my experiences I have kept more muscle and looked better doing almost no cardio and just watching my diet. I am genetically fairly lean anyway, but when I start doing a lot of cardio I go flat as hell. I'm also 6'2 so it's easy for me to look stringy, I don't need that. Kind of contradicting myself, but if I was to try to get real lean (competition) I would do high intensity shorter sessions. Who wants to walk on a damn treadmill for 45 minutes and burn a few hundred calories when you can do high intensity and increase caloric burn all day. Not only that, it will make training larger muscle groups like legs and back easier. JMHO.