CARDIO is a WASTE of TIME and ENERGY!!!

[Hannibal]

Do any of you ever do cardio for fun? Like taking a hike, or going canoeing for the weekend, or on a bike ride with your kids?

It may not do anything for your physique, but it could work wonders for your attitude.

Go outside and play.

That's the second best form of cardio I can think of...

It's funny I was thinking that when we went into the gym today and saw all those people doing cardio. Granted it was early in the mornin...and some of their kids were sleepin. However, you know later in the day there will be people in there doing what they could be doing at the park...or outside anywhere.

 

[vinylgroover]

And one should ask themselves this:

Why is it that if I present an opposing view, along with a cogent argument and logical assertions, that I'm trolling?

You see boldman, my writings have helped many people -- many not as mch as yours, but still quite a lot.

I've got no problem with people posessing an opposing view, but when that view is irresponsible and detrimental to people's health and wrong in fact, i get fucking pissed off.....hence my attitude.

You have proceeded to go on and on with this nonsense......why? because any admission from you that you are wrong will be detrimental to your livelihood of selling your books......irrespective of the consequences to the health of those you say you're trying to help.

3 times i asked you to explain where my simple 2 line statements on the benefis of cardiovascular work were wrong and three times you declined to answer.

I'm finished with this so don't bother responding, but i will reiterate my words to all those here, always use common sense when digesting any information from these boards.

 

[jboldman]

Well Montana, it is trolling when the subject has been covered in detail on this very board recently with essentially the same results and you repost it. now either you are incredibly naive or not bright enough to realize that it would generate a controversy or you are trolling? which is it?

Pushing your book here again? Frankly I do not care how many books/articles you have or have not written, so what? If I disagree and do so in a civil and logical way readily willing to back everything i say up with studies or other evidence, do not resort to callilng you a dumbshit asswipe simply because you disagree with me unlike you who are ever ready to resort to name calling and ridicule.

You know, i kept asking myself, is he really that dense that he can not see the different points being made here and that some of these points are not so dissimilar......... And once again, i have to come to the conclusion that montana is either a common garden variety troll or just likes the limelight.

Sigh, I knew I should have just let it go, I guess i must be guilty in taking some kind of perverse pleasure in pointing out the numerous logical fallacies and just plain untruths. Its too bad you are so predictable, when you get pressed you resort to calling people names, pointing out your numerous writings proving that you obviously must be right , anything but actually backing up what you say with something that looks like a sound intellectual argument.

Little smiley's and gold stars for those that agree with you and namecalling, non-sequitors, general bad manners for those that do not.

C'mon Montana, I'm not a bad guy trying to bust your chops just to bust your chops, i just do not happen to agree with you that there is no place for aerobics in bodybuilding and am willing to cogently argue it. This could be a win win for everyone with a chance to learn something if you would just step up without the immature behavior and make your points. And don't forget, we all lif weights here!


jb

 

[Nelson Montana]

A rose by any other name...

Name calling comes in many forms -- irresponsible, troll, asswipe...it's all the same really.

To vg and jb: Look, I'm not going to state my credentials, because obviously you're not impressed. And I'm not going to reiterate the evidence stated because obviously you don't get it.

vg: Your attempt at being the savior of the board against the dastardly Montana is actually kind of funny. Ill conceived conviction -- gotta love it.

jb: I always thought that a troll was someone with marginal knowledge who came on the boards mearly to distrupt the conversation. They have nothing to offer other than to say that "the other guy" is wrong. I'll let the members decide who's is guilty of that.

If previously conducted studies are the only thing you consider conclusive evidence, why are you even here?

 

[jboldman]

Nelson:

Hmmm, my definition of an internet troll is one who posts false or provacative information simply to generate large numbers of responses.If you like, I will wihdraw my troll analogy if it so offends you. You are right, I am not intersted in your credentials, I know them and actually am impressed with them, they are mostly why i am so disappointed in your lack of abillity to argue coherently without lapsing into name calling, innuendo, and speculation. If I did not think you were a knowledgeable well versed and significant player, I would have long since stopped wasting my time and yours.

clearly scientific studies are not the be all end all of what we are lookig to learn here but they certainly can be usefull, eg,if a well designed study finds that light intensisity exercise performed on an empty(fasted) stomach preferentially uses fat preferentially as a fuel substrate, it would be logical to conclude that exercise in a fasted state burns fat preferentially over carbohydrates. When they ar two dozen similar studies, one might start seeing a preponderance of evidence and start thinking that this might be actually so.

As I see it, your point is that by using resistance training and diet alone an athlete can lose weight and come into superlative bodybuilding shape. I do not think anyone disagrees with that. on the other side, there are some of us, perhaps even the preponderance of us that think the addition of a well thought out proram of cardio added to the resistance training and diet can be of benenfit to bring about the same results with concommitant improvement in overall cardiovascular health as an added benefit. No one is suggesting dropping the weight training or diet or that weight training and diet are not effective, we are simply stating that there can be more than one path to the same goal. As I said, this is not rocket science, although there are many studies and anecdotal evidence on both sides. It would be exceptionally easy to just agree to agree.

You can espouse your approach in your books and articles and folks are free to try both and see which works for them. For me, cardio is an essential for my goals. For someone else, it may not matter.

So you see, I agree with YOUR core point, the problem i am having is why you have such difficulty in seeing MY point??


jb

 

[sucker for supplements]

WantobeDeisal: Thanks bro. You saved me a lot of time.

The truth is, you can't possibly run enough to make a difference in calorie expenditure to induce a significant loss of fat.

Bollocks mate.

you normally know your shit, but this time you're wrong.

i lost 7lbs in 14 days simply from the 'mill and bike in morning sessions last 45 - 60 mins 4 times a week. 500 cals less a day - but managed to keep my prot intake roughly the same.

i defy you when you say it wont do anything, i fucking did it!

(ive put 2lbs back on , and you know how im gonna get rid of it?.........that's right .)

 

[hardasnails73]

ok I'm going to put my 2 sense in here. I have been able to maintain a low perecentage of body fat year 5-6 % round with minimal cardio. I have been some times to go 8 weeks with out it and still maintain same current body fat and get stronger So theoriectically it is possible to do but it does take incredible discpline and constant monitering. But is it healthy, i don;t think so becuase as you body grows so does your heart have to adapt in order to keep the blood pumping to newly created muscle tissue. It all comes down to every ones body is different. What works for one may not work for another. One just has to experiment o find out what there nitch. As for people who use steroids I would recommend becuase not only does your body have to adapt to the new weight but also your heart. Every one has a natural comfort level to carry around. one year i was 230 at 6-7% and was hufing and pufing walking around but i was looking good, but was I healthy NO. For people that do volume traiing cardio may be cut back or even stop becuase it is more like a cardio vascaular workout as long as a weight training workout. Any good body builder knows to get shredded they forget one major thing and it shows incompeition. Try posing for 2 30 minutes session a day and see how exhausted you are from it while on low carbs, training, and daily work schedule, Any good bodybuidler is ready 2-3 weeks out and should stop cardio and pose pose pose and stay tight on diet and will continure to get harder each session. Again this is not norm for people. Just have to find out what works for your body type and go with it .


Hardasnails

 

[Nelson Montana]

jb: Well, now we're getting a little closer. And yeah, this ain't rocket science so all we have is our reasoning and that's what I've presented.

You admit, it's been proven cardio isnt necessary for fat loss. Agreed.

You also say that some people use it for cariovascular benifits. I say it isn't necessary if you weight train in a variety of methods and lead an active lifestyle. Maybe you somewhat agree.

This is the thing:

You, and many others who seems to share your opinion, look at it as "why not?" I look at it as a "why?" -- considering all the negitive reprecussions that come from traditional aerobic activity. Is there a better way? I say yes.

If some people feel better doing it, fine. But people feel better by not eating meat, or praying, or watching reality shows -- none of which is particulary logical or beneficial.

That's my whole stance: We all have a finite amount of energy expenditure from which we can recover. Is aerobic activity worth that expenditure, or can an alternative be used which produces the same benefits, in addition to other benefits, without the negitive side effects? Again, I say yes.

I've outlined the basic premise. But I'll repeat (for the 1000000000h time) I am not here to spoon feed every bit of evidence I've ammassed over the last 30 years to everyone who requests it on demand. And they they pissed if I don't comply! I only have so much time in the day and I do my best. If that isn't enough I'm sorry.
I'd like to see how comprehensive you or anyone else can be when you have dozens of e-mails to answer everyday (for free) along with consultaions, sessions, research, writing, and managing a career completely seperate from bodybuilding. Hey! Maybe I should write a book!

sfs: I nver said aerobics won't cause a weight loss nor is it the crux of the debate.

 

[satchboogie]

NELSON....

you're the man!
dont let nobody tell you differently.

one thing though....

do you consider a moderate pace walk for 45 minutes cardio?
heartrate at around 50%mhr?

 

[Nelson Montana]

Techncally, anything that requires oxegen uptake is cardio and as far as I know, every activity requires oxegen.

Actually, walking is more a fat burning activity than running.(Which utilizes mostly carbs). So walking 5 miles and running 5 miles will both burn a comparable amount of calories. (Walking the same distance takes more time for those of you who are ready to shout back "How can you say walking burns as many calories as running!!!??????!!!!) Yet the walking is likely to burn more fat.

The problem is, it would take a hell of a lot of walking to make a visable difference! So the key is still to get into shape and build muscle through resistance training and then add activities such as walking, biking, dancing, playing sports, etc, as a part of your life.

Jogging on a threadmill or riding a stationary bike in a gym on a beautiful sunny day has no place in the life of a sane man.