Tblock1, I used to overhead press with my hands in the smooth space between the outer ring and the next bit of nurling on the bar so just a smidge wider than close grip bench. When I went wider my pinkies touch the outer ring. When I bench my fore finger and middle finger are inside the outer ring and the other fingers out so moderately wide.
With the slightly wider shoulder press grip I feel like I am engaging both the delts and triceps together rather than more triceps with the real close grip especially because I start the press with the elbows forward and as the weight passes my forehead I flare them to the sides. With a closer grip as you pass the forehead you will notice the elbows flaring out and the relative closeness of the hands and how this puts more focus on the triceps rather than splitting it between the tri's and delts, imo.
Alot of guys you will notice that like to do seated behind neck presses use a grip very similar to their bench ala wider grip.
Glad, this is the basic 5x5 dual factor template and is taken off the Madcow training information site which you can find a link to in the training vault on this forum. I think this 5x5 is far superior for on cycle use because of the extra volume and load placed on the muscles per week:
INTRODUCTION:
Okay, this is a simple program - the problem is that people have very little experience setting something like this up so we now have a giant document and all kinds of crap to answer the questions that most often arise (even some of the most inane ones). This is simple, effective, and very direct training. You will see how simple it is after you do it once but people seem to do a lot better with a surplus of information than a deficit so this is a very comprehensive piece that should answer just about everything.
HISTORY:
This program and variants have been making the rounds on the internet for a few years now. Variations have been made for specific lifters, it�s been rehashed and re-explained by various people ranging from your standard guy who had a lot of success with it all the way to some fairly high level coaches in multiple sports using it on their athletes or using it to illustrate periodization. It�s been cut/pasted into articles, internet forums, interviews, etc� Heck I've put it out there a lot and tried to give credit to every source I could locate as I was able but still my name wound up getting attached to it even though I was pretty clear that this was not a program I designed. This version here is one that I've tweaked a bit in an effort to make it more accessible to the variety of people using a program like this for the first time (i.e. trying to set it up to be as tolerable as possible). All that said the real origins stretch back fairly far but for practical application there are three primary sources who are responsible for it�s popularity over the most recent 30 years: Bill Starr, Glenn Pendlay, and Mark Rippetoe.
Bill Starr: This is a variation of Bill Starr's classic 5x5. Bill is without doubt one of the best strength coaches ever, serving at multiple universities, pro teams � including the Super Bowl 1970 Colts, and holding records in both PL and OL. His articles are frequently reprinted in Milo, have appeared in Ironman for years (they might still be in there periodically), and are generally all over the strength and conditioning world. His book on training for football, 'The Strongest Shall Survive', is a classic for coaches, players, and any strength athlete - you can pick it up at Ironmind.
Glenn Pendlay: An accomplished powerlifter and Olympic weightlifter in his own right and a fantastic strength coach, Glenn has found his real calling training and developing others. He founded and serves as the head coach for Wichita Falls Weightlifting � which he has quickly turned into one of the best teams in the nation. He is also the coach of the MSU weightlifting team, head coach of a Regional Olympic Development Center. Coming to OL relatively late he still managed to snatch 170 kilos (375lbs), cleaned 210kilos (463lbs), push pressed 200 kilos (440lbs), and military pressed within a few pounds of 400 on multiple occasions. You can learn more about him in his interview (link is dead).
Mark Rippetoe: Owner of Wichita Falls Athletic Club, co-author of Starting Strength, is well known for his outrageous success in adding muscular bodyweight to new lifters (30-40lbs in 4-6 months being fairly typical). Has trained countless lifters over the years. Link to his interview (link is dead).
For those interested in a more full overview of how Mark and Glenn typically train their athletes this is a solid piece to read: Pendlay/Rippetoe Programing (link is dead)
USAGE:
This program and variations are very much in common use all over the place even being common to elite athletes in various sports. This program is very effective at increasing strength and lean body mass, it focuses on the core lifts that drive full body hypertrophy and getting those lifts up as quickly as possible. There is little isolation work and what is generally used is targeted and specific, not the typical shotgun array of �let�s do everything and the kitchen sink� that serves mainly to dilute a program�s effectiveness. Solve problems as they arise, do not waste time trying to preempt every possible future issue one can imagine. Most people who haven�t trained like this tend to be pretty amazed that the body grows very proportionately all on it�s own from a small assortment of compound lifts. The idea is you do a few things and get systematically better at them over time, don�t try to do everything all at once. Focus on what matters most and remove all the garbage so you can do it a lot and get really good.
People have had a lot of success using something like this while cutting. I have seen a number of reports of people keeping bodyweight constant, losing body fat, and increasing in most relevant measurements (chest, thigh, arms) so that says something. If you are close to a weight class limit you�ll need to be very careful. All that said, this program will make you strong but if you want to put on muscle there absolutely must be caloric excess. Read my piece on caloric excess if you haven�t already, more people screw this up than anything else. This program has gotten results for 30 years and still continues to get excellent results from bodybuilders, strength athletes, or those looking for better performance. It is a very good method of getting big and strong. In addition, specific to bodybuilding it breaks a lot of the typical voodoo myths running around like �training a muscle 1x per week is required for recovery� or that �isolation work is required or one will develop all out of proportion�. This program is about simple training and results. However, there is a ton of science behind it and one would do well to familiarize themselves with dual factor theory and the properly used concepts of volume, frequency, intensity, and workload. There is more to training than simply going into the gym, getting under a bar, and working hard hoping to come back better. So by running this program one gets gains and learns at the same time, sort of a "teach a man to fish..."
This program is not ideally done as a �cookie-cutter� but should be tailored to the experience level of the trainee. It is setup here for an experienced lifter who is completely familiar with the core lifts and is beginning periodization (i.e. with experience making week to week record progress becomes less and less a reality for all lifters over time so this would be a balanced version to use) . For most people unfamiliar with this style of training, which is a lot more taxing than doing a bunch of isolation work, it�s a good starting point. Some might find that they can be more aggressive with the weights and load harder, some might need more volume, some might find themselves doing really well in the volume phase and realizing that a single factor program with more emphasis on frequency and the core lifts is what might work best as significant strength increase during the initial phase would be a good indicator that linear progress is still available but programming must be improved (i.e. you don't need periodization, you need a good training program). Anyway, it�s a progression not a static cookie cutter although we have to start somewhere which is why I�ve drawn it up the way I have. I�ve tried my best to cover that as have others but still people get attached. As a lifter progressed workload will be expanded and obviously you can�t just keep hammering the same thing again and again. The programming interview from Pendlay and Rippetoe here
ALRIndustries.com - The Leader of Sports & Bodybuilding Supplement Nutrition (link is dead) can probably provide more insight and they have a book coming out with Lon Kilgore called Practical Periodization (available early 2006) that is intended to cover multiyear training plans and development.
If you've just randomly come to this topic or been provided a link - there is a large amount of information here: Table of Contents
LOADING DELOADING AND INTENSIFICATION
Volume Phase Option 1: Deload and Peak 3x3 OR Option 2: Pure Deload
Weeks 1-4 Weeks 5-9 Weeks 5-6 or Extended
Monday Monday Monday
Squat 5x5 3x3 3x3
Bench 1x5 1x3 3x3
Row 1x5 1x3 3x3
Wednesday Wednesday Wednesday or Thursday
Squat 5x5 (10-20% < than Monday) Drop This Lift 3x3 with 70% of Monday
Deadlift 5x5 3x3 3x3
Military or Incline 5x5 3x3 3x3
Pull-ups or Chins 5x5 3x3 3x3
Friday Friday
Squat 1x5 1x3
Bench 5x5 3x3
Row 5x5 3x3
Clarifying Examples
(numbers are random - do not read anything into this)
Set 1 Set 2 Set 3 Set 4 Set 5
5x5 = Straight Sets 315x5 315x5 315x5 315x5 315x5
3x3 = Straight Sets 315x3 315x3 315x3
1x5 = Ramped Sets 225x5 255x5 275x5 295x5 315x5
1x3 = Ramped Sets 275x3 295x3 315x3
Volume/Loading Phase - Weeks 1-4:
So 5x5 is 5 sets of 5 reps with working set weight (warm up to the target weight for the week and proceed through 5x5 with that weight). Where 1x5 is present you are ramping the weights upward each set to a target set weight for a single set of 5 (it's still 5x5 but each set gets heavier and your target set is the top set of 5). The exception is the Wednesday squat for 5x5 using somewhere between 10-20% less than the working weight on the Monday 5x5 workout (the Wed squat may increase less than the Monday squat over the ramping weeks - meaning it may start at 12% less and wind up at 22% less by the last record week if one needs some extra recovery). What you are doing is gradually increasing the target weights week to week so you wind up performing record lifts in the final two weeks of the volume phase (weeks 3/4 in this case). If you miss a weight, hold it constant for the next week by carrying it forward (you should not be missing until weeks 3/4 though). Keep in mind that you have separate targets for 5x5 and 1x5 even though they are the same lift (i.e. bench press). The ramping is set separately for these and they are treated separately. It's a good idea to start conservatively as this gets fairly backbreaking and you'll be begging for week 5. The most common mistake is people starting too high. It's useful to start light and then be flexible either adding an extra week to the ramp up or moving your targets a bit as you feel your way. This is far easier in the intensity phase because you already have a reference - likewise the next time you run this workout, it'll be a no brainer. The main point in this phase is the volume. Lower the weight if need be but get the sets and reps in. If you fail on an exercise just carry the target weight forward into the next week. Some people who are new to this might find it easier to run this phase for 6 weeks starting much lighter and building slowly. If your working weights for the deadlift are 2x bodyweight (meaning you are a 200lbs lifter and you'll be doing 400+ for 5x5 throughout the cycle) it's probably a good idea to do lower the volume on that lift to 3x5 in this phase.
The easiest way to set this up the first time is to put current PRs in week 3 (with more experience and relevant lifts you might have new PR goals in both weeks 3 and 4). Your 5RM can be calculated and just drop off a given percentage for your 5x5RM (try 7.5% maybe) you get a week 3 figure for those lifts. Now back down to week 1. A conservative number to start with might be 80% of your Week 3 PR lift then split the difference for Week 2. If you are really strong (and jumps are large), you might need more weeks to ramp up. What you don't want to do is start too high, you can always tack on another week but if you start too high you blow the progression. Anyway, week 4 lifts are a margin above week 3, maybe 5%. It's important to plan it out and then play it by ear as you go, adjust where need be so that you culminate with the 2 final weeks. If that means starting lighter and running for 6 weeks that's fine. If that means, you thought 4 weeks was fine but you were unexpectedly stronger (or got stronger during this phase) and need to add an extra week to avoid a big jump, that's okay too - just be very conscious of fatigue level. Your first time through you'll feel pretty beat up after the last week, that's okay. If you are beat up entering the 2nd to last week, that's something to watch. You want to 'overreach' which is before overtraining. Sometimes you'll encounter a performance deficit and not be able to set PRs (very common for advanced athletes loading hard), without experience though you don't want to push it too hard and overdo it - takes too damn long to recover from.
OPTION 1 - Deload and Peak 3x3:
This option provides for deloading in the middle weeks and working toward new PRs in the final weeks (think of it as almost 2 loading phases as the 2nd will likely fatigue you by the time you are done). This makes it a bit harder to handle particularly for first timers. In addition, trainees might need a light week or two before moving back into another loading period.
Deloading Week - Week 5:
On week 5 drop the Wednesday squat workout, begin using the Deloading/Intensity set/rep scheme, and keep the weight the same as your last week in the Volume Phase. In reality the whole intensity phase and this week are the same thing, I just break this week out because there is no weight progression so in reality after the volume phase the whole thing is deloading/intensity which for the purposes of this workout are synonymous. Also my 3x per week layout tends to get pretty aggressive as many find themselves fatigued again by the end so it kind of makes logical sense to break this period separately. Largely semantics.
Intensification Phase - Week 6-9:
Everything is the same principal except that you use 3x3 and 1x3 setting records on week 8 and 9 (or the final 2 weeks of this phase). No Wednesday squatting. It's important that you recover before getting into the heavy weight PRs again so if you have to keep Week 6 light, go ahead. The important aspect of this phase is the weight increases. If you are burned out and you need an extra day here and there that's okay - this won't hurt you at all and unless you are feeling ripe it might well be beneficial. If you can't do all the work that's okay too. Just keep increasing the weight week to week. It might also help to keep the first week in this phase just incrementally higher than the Deloading Week to provide for extra recovery if needed. During this phase you'll be ramping the weights from your deloading week to your 3x3 and 1x3 records in the final 2 weeks. In this 3x per week pattern, start light once again and get a breather. Taking extra days or cutting out volume isn�t encouraged but if you need extra recovery do it and then adjust your future training plans accordingly. If you don�t get an adequate deload first (that 1 week may not be enough) you will cripple your gains. Better to get 90% out of a training cycle than 10%. You'll learn a lot about your tolerance for volume loading and unloading here - there is no need to try to be a hero. Get some experience and the next time you run this you'll be spot on but you wind up feeling your way to a degree the first time.
Post Cycle:
Depending upon how you feel, it's probably a good idea to deload again before moving back into another volume phase if you ran the 3x per week like I outlined above. See the alternative schedule below and perform this light for 2 weeks working on speed/acceleration. If you ran the 2x alternate schedule below for your deload/intensity you can likely move straight back into another volume phase.
OPTION 2 - Pure Deload:
This is designed to get you recovered without too much hassle or worry. Frequency is dropped to 2x per week and the Friday workout is dropped. The Wednesday workout can be moved to Thursday if desired. This phase can be run as long as needed to recover or until one wants to do something else. Maybe that's 1-2 weeks for some people to build enough steam to jump back into a loading phase. Maybe that's 4-5 weeks if someone feels they are really getting a lot out of it.
Week 5 and on switch to 3x3 and drop the Friday workout altogether. Week 5 weights are the same as the final week of loading. Over the following weeks increase the weight workout to workout if you get all 9 reps. If you don't get all the reps, keep the weight constant. You'll likely be able to move straight back into another volume phase after this is complete. As for the increases week to week, probably best to use a percentage but to make it easy for first timers maybe add 5lbs to benches and rows then 10lbs to squats and deads.
SUPER props to Madcow for bringing the info and making it known on elitefitness.
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