WTF is this 5x5 routine that is so popular ?

[stilleto]

dude... even if the 5x5 was ONLY good for strength, you do understand that not everyone is a bodybuilder right?
some people just want to get stronger- it doesn't make them powerlifters OR not as smart as you.
i'm guessing you are under 20, correct?

 

[Madcow2]

>>>> Good point , you can change for a while because your body will adapt . But then again , you should always go back to 8-12 reps .

BTW - to the guy that asked if I know the pros , no I don't Jay Cutler but I DO KNOW some other pros that stick to 8-12 as their base . Is that enough for you ?


Victor

Back when I cared, I had discussions on training with multiple pro BBers. I worked closely with one for a while just as he was earning his card. Watched somewhere between 5-10 train for varying periods on a semi-regular basis (other than their size and strength, their training was remarkably similar to any one of the normal plateaued guys running around the gym - some of these guys might have even worked harder and had a better overall workout design). One thing is certain, supperior knowledge or application of training is not in any way a prerequisite for success in professional BBing (nutrition, structural genetics, discipline, a good dealer, and the genetics to respond very favorably to drugs and anciliaries are very important though). I can't remember a single conversation where it wasn't obvious within the first minute that they didn't have a clue with regards to training. I've seen uniformly bad results when these guys trained natural lifters. I've yet to see or meet a single one that I actually felt had a level of knowledge that would make him a decent high school coach in a weightroom.

Some of the worst information in the world comes from these guys - stuff so bad as to totally discredit them from even understanding basic training 101. Probably the best thing to do if one wants to build an impressive physique and would prefer not to live on drugs would be to ignore anything that comes out of these guys. You might miss a few odd bits of info (I'll give them the benefit of the doubt that they can produce something worthwhile) but you'll save yourself from heaps of bullshit and misinformation.

Here's a decent piece on different types of hypertrophy and how different rep ranges can work synergistically over a long training period with periods focusing on each. Should be a decent read and specifically addresses 5 sets of 5 and how all of this relates to bodybuilding.

TOPIC 6: DIFFERENT KINDS OF HYPERTROPHY

Hypertrophy: guys, i wrote this in responce to a question on the think muscle board... i thought it might be of interest to some of you here. if not, well no harm done i guess. there are basically 3 trainable factors involved in size and strength. sarcoplasmic hypertrophy... does not directly increase strength but can effect it by increasing tendon angle at the attachment. but of course increases size. sarcomere hypertrophy... increases contractile proteins in muscle thereby increasing strength directly and also size. neural effeciency... increase in the percentage of motor units that can be activated at any given time. no effect on size but increases strength. the training for each quality exists on sort of a continuim. training for sarcoplasmic hypertrophy is high volume and low intensity... like 10 sets of 10 for a muscle. training for sarcomere hypertrophy is med intensity and med volume... like 5 sets of 5 for a muscle. training for increased neural effeciency is high intensity and low volume... like 5 max effort singles for a given muscle. now, each style of training effects each muscle quality, but in different quantities. for example, 10 sets of 10 will result in a high degree of sarcoplasmic hypertrophy, some sarcomere hypertrophy, and little or no increase in neural effeciency. 5 sets of 5 will increase all 3 qualities, but will effect sarcomere hypertrophy the most. max effort singles will increase neural effeciency a great deal, but will have only a small effect on hypertrophy of the sarcomere, and little or no effect on sarcoplasmic hypertrophy. so no matter how you train, you are likely to get both bigger and stronger... but the degree to which each quality is increased depends on the training. as you get more advanced, the picture changes somewhat. for example, if a highly trained explosive athlete, like a shot-putter, did only workouts of 10 sets of 10 for a month, he would get hypertrophy of the sarcoplasm... but likely NO hypertrophy of the sarcomere and would likely LOSE neural effeciency, simply because he was so highly trainind in this quality beforehand that 10 sets of 10 would not be sufficient stimulus to even keep what neural effeciency he had. also... for a beginner, doing multiple singles would likely lead to some size increases. but for an advanced bodybuilder it would not be sufficient stimulus to keep the sarcoplamic hypertrophy already present. now, as far as whether training for one quality helps subsequent training for another quality, the answer is yes. for instance, an athlete who is only concerned with explosive strength will still train at times with higher reps and experience some sarcoplamic hypertrophy... this "supports" later gains in sarcomere hypertrophy and neural effeciency by building work capacity (sarcoplasmic hypertrophy adds the neccessary ingredients such as cappillaries to the muscle to support high work capacity later in the training cycle, so the athlete can do a higher volume of work). also, a bodybuilder who is only concerned with size will do most of his work with volumes and intensities of training which favor hypertrophy of both the sarcomere and the sarcoplasm. but heavy work done to increase neural effeciency will also help... the ability to activate more motor units during an all out effort will make the rest of his training more result producing and effecient. as far as how to "cycle" these different types of work during a training cycle... well at almost all times during a training cycle you should do at least SOME work on each quality... if you totally neglect some portion of the muscle you will lose performance in that quality. however, you should shift your concentration of work from the least important quality for your sport over time to the most important. in other words... a bodybuilder might begin training for a contest 6 months away with more high intensity work, and gradually shift the emphasis over the months to more med. and low intensity work. a strength athlete would do the opposite. hope this helped in some way.

 

[eat big]

Victor, think before you post. This thread deserves no more posts.

 

[mekannik]

>>>> Good point , you can change for a while because your body will adapt . But then again , you should always go back to 8-12 reps .

BTW - to the guy that asked if I know the pros , no I don't Jay Cutler but I DO KNOW some other pros that stick to 8-12 as their base . Is that enough for you ?


Victor

I appreciate your endorsement - but be careful of the absolutes you are espousing. With your allegiance to 8-12 reps as an absolute base, you are coming across much like Mike Menzter and his proteges who all believe HIT is the only way to train: That is it - end of discussion.

We already had one debacle on this training board with HIT'ers.

For what it is worth I like Ian King's take on sets/reps being related to your training age.

The whole article: http://www.t-nation.com/findArticle.do?article=171cheat

Here’s how Ian breaks it down:

If your main goal is muscle growth:
0-2 years of experience: 10-15 reps
3-6 years of experience: 8-12 reps
6-10 years of experience: 6-10 reps
>10 years of experience: 4-8 reps

If your main goal is maximal strength:
0-2 years of experience: 4-8 reps
3-6 years of experience: 3-6 reps
6-10 years of experience: 2-5 reps
>10 years of experience: 1-4 reps

And if you want the best of both worlds (size and strength):
0-2 years of experience: 6-12 reps
3-6 years of experience: 5-10 reps
6-10 years of experience: 4-8 reps
>10 years of experience: 3-6 reps

 

[Slyder190]

You know, some guys live by the method of 8-12 reps and see resulys from it for quite some time while making changes here and there. SOME guys. The guys I would say have great genetics. MOST guys do well on such routines and then plateau. To me, in this game, you MUST keep on learning and applying dif methods. I myself have always trained to failure using 6-12 reps and as high as 20 reps for legs. I've done this while eating 4000+ calories naturally. I got a lttle stronger, but put on more BF than muscle weight. I began reading the the theories of madcow and others along this same train of thought as far as training theories. After applying the 5x5 method (madcow's) I got incredibly stronger in a short period of time. I didn't get any bigger but I can also say that I was trying to stay to lean even while bulking as ny BF was about 7% roughly. I can't wait to try a different diet approach come fall with the 5x5 or DFHT. I can honestly say that madcow has converted me.

 

[ass_face]

I never really looked into it ...Is this something that you do 5 reps per SET !!??? and 5 sets ?

Is that it ??

Are you people doing this trying to gain strenght ? powerlifters ?

Because if you are bodybuilders trying to INCREASE your MUSCLE SIZE , you should be doing between 8-12 reps ALWAYS . Jay cutler and most of the pros stay on the 8-10 rep range ALWAYS .

end rant .


Victor

I think the 5x5 is a nice program, but I like to vary reps. 12-15, 8-10, 5-7. I usually stagger my training using this rep pattern. Causes you to hit more of your fibers.

 

[needsize]

wow, most of the mass I carry was built around the 5-8 rep range, I guess I must be a lot smaller than I thought I was

 

[blut wump]

Maybe you're just not as small as you'd like to be.

I've tried higher rep ranges and don't much like them. I'm usually either getting bored or fighting lactic acid. With lower ranges my muscles give out before I lose the will to live which is what it's all about for me.

 

[ass_face]

Maybe you're just not as small as you'd like to be.

I've tried higher rep ranges and don't much like them. I'm usually either getting bored or fighting lactic acid. With lower ranges my muscles give out before I lose the will to live which is what it's all about for me.

I read an interesting article... can't remember who wrote it... but it said whatever worked the least for you when you first started training, may be the best for you after 10 or more years of training. I used to grow like a weed with high reps when I first started training and 5x5 programs did nothing for me.... Now 14 years later, I train a lot with 5-7 reps and do much better. I think over time, we have to adapt. No rep range is really superior. They all have a place in achieving your goal.

 

[ScottK345]

So far the 5x5 method for me has worked the best, I am getting huge gains in size and how much weight I am putting up. Only thing I don't like about the program is squating 3 times a week but so far it has been paying off so no complaints.