WTF is this 5x5 routine that is so popular ?

[blut wump]

On this board, 5X5 is God.

Not that it's a bad program - but you guys should look at what you are saying before you just put off other people's ideas as insignificant. You are telling some people on this thread that they are idiots because they believe 8-12 reps is the "magic number." Then you go on to tell them that 5X5 is the "magic program." Seems a little two-faced to me.

A lot of the BASIC PRINCIPLES that madcow posts I really do believe are accurate. But where you go from some of these ideas to the major claim that 5X5 is the most efficient workout ever... I just don't see it. There have to be many other ways to apply that knowledge (dual-factor) into a program that isn't specifically 5X5 that would be just as effective.

Not to mention - wasn't there a Poll thread on the results that people on this very board got from using the 5X5 program? I don't recall seeing everyone's results showing size and strength gains.

I have no doubt that the 5X5 is a kick ass program for many people, and that the bullshit that the BB media engine pumps out is useless. But the trend lately around here is to tell anyone that doesn't use the 5X5 that they are an idiot wasting thier time - and unless you have been training with them, and seeing thier results, its just not fair to jump to that conclusion.

Here's an example of someone using the principles to devise their own routine in a higher rep-range with good results.
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showpost.php?p=4906052&postcount=566

As you rightly say, the madcow 5x5 is just one possible program. It's certainly a good one from my own experience but there are other dual factor programs around. Probably as many as there are coaches, not to mention that after your first run of the program you tend to start customizing to your own ends anyway.

I think there are a lot of good links on the table of contents page of the madcow program which, at the least, can offer an eye-opener to anyone who is used to using the BB magazines as a source of routines and workouts. There's a lot of good reading in there even if you don't like the program.
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showpost.php?p=4491869&postcount=1

 

[Madcow2]

On this board, 5X5 is God.

Not that it's a bad program - but you guys should look at what you are saying before you just put off other people's ideas as insignificant. You are telling some people on this thread that they are idiots because they believe 8-12 reps is the "magic number." Then you go on to tell them that 5X5 is the "magic program." Seems a little two-faced to me.

I don't think anybody is claiming 5x5 is God. The original poster trashed the set/rep scheme and said it was inappropriate for hypertrophy - others have simply stated their results. For most people the periodized Starr program is their first time using something that's well put together. There's no magic, it's just a really solid program for improving the core lifts in a viable range for hypertrophy. It allows for a lot more productive workload than most have ever used work drives adaptation and the periodization deals with the limitations to work imposed by the CNS.

As far as how good it is...well, honestly I've never seen another program any better at adding muscle to a broad range of lifters (it's no accident that this thing has been in use for so long and components appear in programs for novices through some of the finest athletes around). That doesn't mean there aren't programs just as good using different methods and rep ranges and that doesn't mean that one of these might not work better for a given individual. I just haven't seen one applied to a broad base that gets better results. That's why I posted it here, it always gets results, it breaks a lot of the voodoo BBing myths, and presents a very easy to understand example of dual factor theory implemented.

A lot of the BASIC PRINCIPLES that madcow posts I really do believe are accurate. But where you go from some of these ideas to the major claim that 5X5 is the most efficient workout ever... I just don't see it. There have to be many other ways to apply that knowledge (dual-factor) into a program that isn't specifically 5X5 that would be just as effective.

This is something I've been constantly trying to encourage, several of these appear in my TOC. Hell, most of what I post there now isn't concerned with the Starr 5x5 at all. DFHT is one of them, Smolov is another, I know I've touched on Korte's 3x3, Westside, and HST (although I didn't link them because they don't exactly need promotion). Specifically to the piece I posted above on different types of hypetrophy and the synergy between training in different rep ranges, I try to encourage people interested in mass to try HST or DFHT after a period of 5x5 work (the periodized covers down to triplies) in order to let some of this neural efficiency build into higher rep ranges which I feel would be very effective for a BBer. DC would probably work for this too although I don't have a good enough understanding of it to endorse it and think the emphasis around failure shouldn't be carried for too long.

My efforts are really more to present good effective training and demonstrate how to implement it and design more macro level training programs around a specific individual. This isn't about the 5x5, it's about education and helping people achieve their goals. Look at the journals and results accross the board they are pretty great with everyone experiencing major strength gains and everyone getting serious hypertrophy a lot in the 15-30lbs in 4 months or 2 cycles. Those on cutting diets, trying to maintain weight and not add, or simply not able to eat enough calories and not gaining either fat or muscle (i.e. no caloric surplus present) not withstanding but even these guys have all gotten a lot stronger.

Not to mention - wasn't there a Poll thread on the results that people on this very board got from using the 5X5 program? I don't recall seeing everyone's results showing size and strength gains.

The poll originated February 2003. I first started posting about this program in the beginning of 2005 with the main thread originating Feb 2005. Make whatever call you want on that. It's not like 5x5 isn't a popular set and rep range with many other programs using it. Also, let's face it - a lot of people are morons. I've caught 16 year old 130lbers over at BBing.com gearing up to use the periodized version - absolutely rediculous. They need to lift and eat. Believe me, people can and will screw everything up and there's a reason the word musclehead exists.

I have no doubt that the 5X5 is a kick ass program for many people, and that the bullshit that the BB media engine pumps out is useless. But the trend lately around here is to tell anyone that doesn't use the 5X5 that they are an idiot wasting thier time - and unless you have been training with them, and seeing thier results, its just not fair to jump to that conclusion.

I'll have to look more closely but I really haven't seen that and if I had, I'd discourage it pretty strongly. I really think it's just a case of providing someone with a pretty solid program to get bigger and stronger that is obviously working pretty well accross everyone. In all honesty, it's rare that you get a cookie cutter program that can accomplish this - although to be fair I do have it setup not to kill anyone and also provide a novice version which is more of an intermediate and not a beginners program. I guess I should probably make a beginner program sometime but in all honesty they can buy www.startingstrength.com, learn the lifts, and that will take them through the first year or so. Rippetoe generally gets 30lbs on a novice in the first 4 months as a standard so rather than a bottle of Pill Factor X endorsed by Joe Jerkoff they can put their $25 into something that will serve them a lifetime and get them into great shape.

 

[Tadow]

Hey Madcow

Didn't mean that post towards you in any specific way. It was more of a general observation on the attitude on this board. I don't have a lot of posts but you can see by my start date that I have been reading for a while.

I respect the amount of time and effort you have put into helping people here. It's obvious that you go above and beyond to help people accomplish thier goals.

This is something I've been constantly trying to encourage, several of these appear in my TOC. Hell, most of what I post there now isn't concerned with the Starr 5x5 at all. DFHT is one of them, Smolov is another, I know I've touched on Korte's 3x3, Westside, and HST (although I didn't link them because they don't exactly need promotion). Specifically to the piece I posted above on different types of hypetrophy and the synergy between training in different rep ranges, I try to encourage people interested in mass to try HST or DFHT after a period of 5x5 work (the periodized covers down to triplies) in order to let some of this neural efficiency build into higher rep ranges which I feel would be very effective for a BBer. DC would probably work for this too although I don't have a good enough understanding of it to endorse it and think the emphasis around failure shouldn't be carried for too long.

My efforts are really more to present good effective training and demonstrate how to implement it and design more macro level training programs around a specific individual. This isn't about the 5x5, it's about education and helping people achieve their goals. Look at the journals and results accross the board they are pretty great with everyone experiencing major strength gains and everyone getting serious hypertrophy a lot in the 15-30lbs in 4 months or 2 cycles. Those on cutting diets, trying to maintain weight and not add, or simply not able to eat enough calories and not gaining either fat or muscle (i.e. no caloric surplus present) not withstanding but even these guys have all gotten a lot stronger.

Glad to see that you agree in theory with some of what I said. Like I mentioned before, my post wansn't a personal attack on you or your programs. It just seems to me that people around here are so stuck on the 5X5 that they don't seem willing to adapt and tweak things to find out what works best for themselves. They don't seem to realize that you can still utilize dual-factor training in a system different than the specific 5X5 that has become so popular.

 

[Madcow2]

Hey Madcow

Didn't mean that post towards you in any specific way. It was more of a general observation on the attitude on this board. I don't have a lot of posts but you can see by my start date that I have been reading for a while.

Believe me, I didn't take it that way at all - and you presented it well so the thought never entered my mind. You brought up a lot of good points and it was worth the time, not just to respond to you but to put some thoughts down so that others might benefit (it helps to break out the quotes though and that seems to make it more of a personal response than intended. Plus, I had to point out that the poll predates this program's appearance on this board by 2 years as there's always confusion and to be honest, so many programs use a similar set and rep scheme in some way or another that it's just a general confusing way to refer to the program. I've been trying to use Bill Starr 5x5 or some such just because this program isn't nearly so famous in BBing as it is in strength and conditioning.

It's funny, when I first put that program on here, everyone wanted to change it and make it a 3 day split (which is impossible) or butcher it in one way or another. I was always pointing out that those who have completed it rarely ever want to mess with it and generally love it, now'a'days it seems like many are afraid to add a set of curls or some such (probably an exageration but it illustrates the reversal in attitudes).

 

[blut wump]

Give me a break. Most people are going onto the 5x5 because the standard stuff has stopped working. Adapting and tweaking within normal BB paramters has failed to break plateaus and the 5x5 has come to the rescue. Once anyone has done the program they realise that they can tweak it to their heart's content. Like madcow just explained, the 5x5 is simply an excellent general purpose dual-factor program. He's made this clear many times and gives links to other DF programs in his TOC.

 

[Quadsweeps Sister]

...."Why can't we all just get alooooong???"


__________________
Mythicwrld

"We deceive ourselves when we fancy that only weakness needs support. Strength needs it far more."

 

[psychedout]

The 5x5 worked excellent for me. I kept virtually all my mass while dieting naturally as well as added some strength. In the past I usually had a big problem with loosing mass while dieting, but not with this program. My joints also never felt better on it.

There is a lot more to training than going balls to walls to failure week in and week out. Single-factor bullshit like that may get you somewhere in the first 2 years of training, but after that it's all in the drugs. When you take juice it magnifies the stimulus by so much that you can grow of virtually anything.

More importantly than the actually 5x5 rep scheme though, is the principles behind it. I think most anabolic board guys don't really understand progressive overload and deconditioning. I certainly thought I did about 6 months ago but was shown the light and can now see much better.

I have since move onto an HST based program and just finished my 4th week. It uses many rep ranges 15's,10's,5's, & 3's, yet is still based on the same principles as the 5x5. Bottom line is that its the principles behind it -- and the 5x5/HST probably have more science backing it up than any other programs that I am aware of.

 

[Joe Stenson]

The poll originated February 2003. I first started posting about this program in the beginning of 2005 with the main thread originating Feb 2005. Make whatever call you want on that.

I pointed this out already, but let's make the distinction clear. The original 5x5 people talked about on this board was presented by Needsize. Yours is something quite different.

 

[needsize]

I pointed this out already, but let's make the distinction clear. The original 5x5 people talked about on this board was presented by Needsize. Yours is something quite different.

thats why we need separate names, my version has proven very effective, but frankly I am more impressed with what I am reading about madcow's version

 

[Singleton]

training for sarcoplasmic hypertrophy is high volume and low intensity... like 10 sets of 10 for a muscle.

What is low intensity? So if I want sarcoplasmic hypertrophy, I could do say,

10x10 @ 30% 10rm?

Or

10x10 @ 40% 10rm?


That could be a really big difference in total load. The tonnage on the second one is 333% more! I think this type of thing is going to be very delicate. I've never done something like that. I would like to try, but I'm scared I'll get it wrong and overtrain.

Please advise. And do provide refs, if you can