Very shut down, PLEASE READ

[Anakin2]

40but: I'll be 21 in 2 weeks. I don't want to use hcg because it is suppressive, isn't it? I thought it was just used to reduce the crash and bring the nuts back to size before the hypothalamus and pituitary recover. My cycle was: 400mg primo/week; 250mg test on weeks 1 and 2; dbol week 1; winny weeks 2 and 3. I don't want to go on hrt at such an early age.

JR SYD: aren't those clomid dosages overkill?

vicious: that's really encouraging... i'll try clomid at a low dose if things don't get better in 2 weeks, but i'm scared of the large number of people that don't react well to clomid and the harsh sides.

alltraps and muscleup: yes i know 24 is amazing for free test... before my cycle my free test was 17 with total test 430. it was probably due to the proviron, but that would mean that it has a long half life because i hadn't taken it for 24hrs before the blood was drawn. i'm curious to see where it will be in 2 weeks because i'm sticking to avena sativa only.

my theory right now is that the high level of androgens provided by proviron is keeping me shut down. maybe proviron isn't suppressive if you aren't suppressed, but it might prevent recovery if you're already suppressed.

i was feeling great with no symptoms of low test (probably due to the high free test) and looking better than ever. sex was also better than ever up to a week before blood work... in fact, what led me to get blood drawn was that one night my boner just went limp in the middle of it. it's hard for me to evaluate my status right now in an objective manner though because i'm a bit depressed right now due to other factors (i had to come back to school, and leave back my girlfriend and best friends).

 

[muscleup]

Proviron is supressive so I'm not sure why you decided to run it post cycle

NOPE...Not true

 

[40butpumpin]

I don't want to use hcg because it is suppressive, isn't it?

not at 500iu ed for 2 weeks bro. if your nuts are shrunk, or you have evidence to show they are inoperative, it is in order. and i would think you have enough evidence to show your nuts are inoperative. consider using the clomid after the hcg. there's plenty of posts on here that describe the correct dosage, but you start high and then you taper down with clomid (like from 300mg down to 50mg; 1 day, then three consecutive weeks at decreasing doses). good luck my man and keep us posted on what you decide to do as well as how it works out for you.

 

[macrophage69alpha]

NOPE...Not true

Methods Find Exp Clin Pharmacol. 1984 Jun; 6(6): 331-7. Related Articles, Links


The effects of mesterolone, a male sex hormone in depressed patients (a double blind controlled study).

Itil TM, Michael ST, Shapiro DM, Itil KZ.

Based on computer EEG (CEEG) profiles, in high doses, antidepressant properties of mesterolone, a synthetic androgen, were predicted. In a double-blind placebo controlled study, the clinical effects of 300-450 mg daily mesterolone were investigated in 52 relatively young (age range 26-53 years, mean 42.7 years) male depressed outpatients. During 6 weeks of mesterolone treatment, there was a significant improvement of depressive symptomatology. However, since an improvement was also established during the placebo treatment, no statistically appreciable difference in the therapeutic effects of mesterolone was established compared to placebo. Mesterolone treatment significantly decreased both plasma testosterone and protein bound testosterone levels. Patients with high testosterone levels prior to treatment seem to have had more benefit from mesterolone treatment than patients with low testosterone levels. The degree of improvement weakly correlated to the decrease of testosterone levels during mesterolone treatment.


Clin Endocrinol (Oxf). 1977 May; 6(5): 339-45. Related Articles, Links


The hormone response to a synthetic androgen (mesterolone) in oligospermia.

Jackaman FR, Ansell ID, Ghanadian R, McLoughlin PV, Lewis JG, Chisholm GD.

Forty subfertile men with oligospermia were treated with a synthetic androgen (Mesterolone). The effect of the drug was evaluated by measuring serum testosterone, luteinizing hormone (LH), follicle stimulating hormone (FSH) and analysing the semen before and after treatment. The results demonstrated that in twenty-three patients treated for 6-9 months there was a significant decrease in serum testosterone (P less than 0.01); the means +/- SEM before and after treatment were 17.05 +/- 0.95 and 14.7 +/- 0.95 (nmol/l serum) respectively. There was a pronounced increase in serum LH (P less than 0.01), the values being 2.73 +/- 0.26 and 3.61 +/- 0.3 (u/l) respectively. However, no significant difference was found in serum FSH before and after treatment. The sperm concentration showed a variable response to treatment. In twenty-one patients there was either no change or worsening in the sperm concentration, whereas in nineteen patients an improvement was observed. The analysis of variance of sperm concentration and motility for the periods before and after treatment, for all the patients, showed no significant difference in the sperm concentration F1.145 = 2.82 (P=0.1).

----------------
with respect to the second study the increase in LH is likely due to decrease in estrogen (since MES does not aromatize)

 

[Anakin2]

Clomid

Isn't anyone surprised by the possibility that proviron might be suppressive? My LH and FSH are undetectable, as in NONE.

I will get bloodwork in 2 weeks, and if it doesn't improve I'll start hcg and clomid but I pray to god that Nelson is wrong about clomid and that it really does work.

Doesn't clomid work based on the hypothesis that elevated estrogen keeps you suppressed? In my case, estrogen is not elevated at all, so would it serve its purpose?

Assuming I do use clomid, what would be a conservative dosage and minimum duration of administration? 300mg day 1, followed by 50mg per day for 2 weeks?

Yes my nuts are substantially atrophied so hcg would help out, so how about 500iu per day for 1 week? I know most people go for 2 weeks but if nuts are back to normal in 1 week, can I stop?

How long after or into hcg administration does clomid use begin?

How much nolva should I have at hand to use just in case hcg gives me gyno symptoms?

I'm asking this because I want to do my shopping right away.

 

[Anakin2]

By the way, this thread advocates only 25mg clomid per day:

http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/s...page=20&highlight=clomid therapy&pagenumber=1

 

[Vicious cycle]

vicious: that's really encouraging... i'll try clomid at a low dose if things don't get better in 2 weeks, but i'm scared of the large number of people that don't react well to clomid and the harsh sides.

50mg everyday for at least 4 weeks. With that dose, you won't have any sides from it and it should fix you right up. Forget all that herbal hokas pokas, go with the proven winner.

 

[40butpumpin]

Re: Clomid

Isn't anyone surprised by the possibility that proviron might be suppressive? My LH and FSH are undetectable, as in NONE.

I will get bloodwork in 2 weeks, and if it doesn't improve I'll start hcg and clomid but I pray to god that Nelson is wrong about clomid and that it really does work.

Doesn't clomid work based on the hypothesis that elevated estrogen keeps you suppressed? In my case, estrogen is not elevated at all, so would it serve its purpose?

Assuming I do use clomid, what would be a conservative dosage and minimum duration of administration? 300mg day 1, followed by 50mg per day for 2 weeks?

Yes my nuts are substantially atrophied so hcg would help out, so how about 500iu per day for 1 week? I know most people go for 2 weeks but if nuts are back to normal in 1 week, can I stop?

How long after or into hcg administration does clomid use begin?

How much nolva should I have at hand to use just in case hcg gives me gyno symptoms?

I'm asking this because I want to do my shopping right away.

gyno occurs from estrogen dominance. i don't see why you'd have an adundance of estrogen in your body so as to cause gyno. you're young so you don't have an inordinate amount of aromatase enzyme, and you're taking about relatively little testosterone.

my information states 4 days after stopping the hcg to begn the clomid, however, i would use your nuts as a guide, when they increase to normal size, stop the hcg and start on the clomid.

as far as dose for clomid, again, according to my information it is optimally taken 300mg day 1, 200mg for a week, 100mg for a week, and finally 50mg for a week.

good luck man.

 

[Mr. Black]

I would say that at 1 month out you have nothing to worry about. Although you appear to be unusually sensitive to a mild 3-weeker, everyone's recovery is different. Once My test levels (total) was 50ng/dl 2.5 months after my last shot of deca. Eventually after another couple of months, things began to normalize. If your levels are still down 6 months off, then might be the time to arrange some more rounds of PCT.

 

[nadr7891]

Proviron is supressive so I'm not sure why you decided to run it post cycle

first of all, most studies i've seen claim Proviron to be only mildly suppressive, if at all, and most personal experiences i've seen posted on this and other boards intimate that all it does is help them maintain a healthy libido post-cycle.

second of all, dude wanted to be able to get hard ons (as alluded to in first paragraph).

<b>Anakin</b>: i can't believe you had testicular atrophy on a 3-week cycle. that scares me. i had absolutely neither post-cycle crash nor atrophy during or after my 3-week cycle and i used essentially the same compunds as you did. i'm on a long cycle (10 weeks) now and the results have not exceeded the ones i got on my 3-week cycle so far. from here on out for me it's high-dose, 3-week cycles with more androgenic compounds. they work just as well and for me it's easier to be more strict with my diet and training for such short periods. i don't get bored (i know, this is a character flaw not all of you have). maybe i'm ADD. Short cycles for the Adult ADD all the way!

Nadr