MS - I could use a little help!

[JJFigure]

My fat loss is stalling. I've already increased my cardio to get past my first stall point two weeks ago, but I'm stalling again. I've had two suggestions - start refeeding every 3 days and quit the cardio for a week or two.

Right now, I carb load (as opposed to refeed) on Sat and Sun and intake roughly 500-600 grams of low gi carbs (primarily oatmeal). One day I'll eat 300-400 grams, the second day I'll eat 150-200 grams and then go back to my regular low carb diet. I haven't been retaining much water with this approach and really haven't had issues with carb hangovers.

I'm at 11% bodyfat - upper body is very lean and vascular, but lower body is lagging (and triceps could be a little crisper too). I'm shooting for 8% bodyfat by the Worlds on June 7. I know every body is different, but is there any advice you can give me? So far, I haven't had issues with hunger (I average 1500 kcals/day, with daily kcals ranging from 1200 - 2000 on my big carb load day). I am starting to get really fatigued though - I'm really noticing it this week. Two weeks ago I increased my cardio to three HIIT sessions (two 20 minute sessions on bike, 1 sprint workout) and 3-4 30 minute steady state sessions. I'm a little scared of dropping the cardio completely, although I'd love to do it.

For refeeds, do you go 50% over maintenance kcals? That seems like a lot of kcals, unless your non-refeed days are pretty low kcal. If I were to refeed every three days, would I eat 1200 kcals day 1-2 and (assuming 1500 kcals maintenance) eat 2250 kcals on day 3? I'm a little confused. :-( Oh, and do you really eat high GI? Or should I stick with my oatmeal approach?

 

[MR. BMJ]

I'll save this question for MS, however....have you tried yohimbine both topically and/or orally? If not, then it "may" help.

BMJ

 

[The Shadow]

My fat loss is stalling. I've already increased my cardio to get past my first stall point two weeks ago, but I'm stalling again. I've had two suggestions - start refeeding every 3 days and quit the cardio for a week or two.

Right now, I carb load (as opposed to refeed) on Sat and Sun and intake roughly 500-600 grams of low gi carbs (primarily oatmeal). One day I'll eat 300-400 grams, the second day I'll eat 150-200 grams and then go back to my regular low carb diet. I haven't been retaining much water with this approach and really haven't had issues with carb hangovers.

I'm at 11% bodyfat - upper body is very lean and vascular, but lower body is lagging (and triceps could be a little crisper too). I'm shooting for 8% bodyfat by the Worlds on June 7. I know every body is different, but is there any advice you can give me? So far, I haven't had issues with hunger (I average 1500 kcals/day, with daily kcals ranging from 1200 - 2000 on my big carb load day). I am starting to get really fatigued though - I'm really noticing it this week. Two weeks ago I increased my cardio to three HIIT sessions (two 20 minute sessions on bike, 1 sprint workout) and 3-4 30 minute steady state sessions. I'm a little scared of dropping the cardio completely, although I'd love to do it.

For refeeds, do you go 50% over maintenance kcals? That seems like a lot of kcals, unless your non-refeed days are pretty low kcal. If I were to refeed every three days, would I eat 1200 kcals day 1-2 and (assuming 1500 kcals maintenance) eat 2250 kcals on day 3? I'm a little confused. :-( Oh, and do you really eat high GI? Or should I stick with my oatmeal approach?

500-600 grams might be too many carbs for a load - I remember the recommended range for 190-200 pound male being about 550 grams or so.

I would recommend bumping up the healthy fat intake....even at the sake of bumping overall kcals for a while.

Cardio sounds a little high as well. You might want to consider doing 3 sessions of a longer(45 or so) more moderate approach(and dropping the hitt for now).....burning bodyweight divided by 10 cals per minute is easily attainable for most on a high incline tradmill and around 4 mph.....


Pack in some ala if you arent.....

 

[JJFigure]

Corn - I'm on the Anabolic diet, so my fat intake Mon-Fri is pretty high (~50%); my carb loads are < 10% pro, 15-25% fat, and 70% carb, per Anabolic guidelines (I double-checked my log, and last weekend my carb intake was 500 grams between Sat and Sun). I can easily cut them down though, if that would help. Especially since I'm pretty sick of oatmeal by the end of my carb load.

Mr. BMJ - I am using oral yohimbine hcl on low carb days, 15 mgs on an empty stomach (mainly to help with my low blood pressure issues), and I've been using yohimburn once/day.

I'm at the leanest I've ever been right now; the problem is I need to be even leaner - especially through the glutes and hamstrings - to compete well at the World championships. I just don't know how to get leaner. :-(

 

[Daisy_Girl]

Don't really have any help, just trying to send some good thoughts your way.... hoping you find a way to work it out... I know if anyone can, you can! Good luck!

 

[JJFigure]

Thanks Daisy Girl!

MS - I thought of a couple more questions. The more frequently you refed, how did you mentally deal with the water retention post refeed? It really bothers me to see the numbers on that scale increase - luckily, by drinking lots of water during my low gi carb loads, I haven't had issues with a lot of water retention or bloating, but a high gi refeed is a different story. Also, how were you measuring progress? Just with caliper millimeter comparisons and mirror, or did you continue to use the scale? Right now, none of my forms of measurement (millimeters, scale, or tape measure) are moving. Damn it.

 

[wilson6]

JJ,

Have you ever been to 8%?

Regarding the water with refeeding. If the refeeds allow you to continue losing bodyfat, then deal with it. How you look on stage the day of the show is all that counts. What you look like before that, assuming it is only water means nothing especially if it is only temporary.

W6

 

[JJFigure]

Nope, I've never been to 8%; that's why I'm floundering a little. You're right, W6; I'm just a little chicken of the whole refeed thing. Most of the people practicing refeeds don't seem to be competitors; I was hoping to get some insight from another natty competitor who had used this approach successfully, just to qualm my fears.

I think I've given myself plenty of time to get to 8% (or lower, if possible), I just need to get the fat loss cruising again.

 

[wilson6]

"Most of the people practicing refeeds don't seem to be competitors"

Why wouldn't it work for someone that competes?

I'm just wondering if you can actually get to 8% without compromising significant amounts of muscle, energy and sanity. Everyone has their natural limitations and you might be getting close to yours. You have to keep this in perspective. Just because one natty can get to 8% doesn't mean that's universal for all. MS is probably a couple SDs from the mean. There's plenty out there juiced that have a hard time getting to 8%.

W6

 

[JJFigure]

"I'm just wondering if you can actually get to 8% without compromising significant amounts of muscle, energy and sanity."

That's definitely the question.

So far, I'm holding on to muscle very well and I'm even increasing in strength. I've had great lifts both last night and today. Last night I pulled 5x4 with 215 lbs. on my RDLs, which means I'm ready to move up to 225 lbs next lift, and today I finally moved up to a 25 lb. plate in my weighted dips and pulled off clean sets of 4x4.

The bottom line is I have the desire, willpower, and discipline, so I'm just giving it the ole college try. And, let's face it, if I don't hit it this comp, it won't be the end of the world; I've got lots of years ahead of me. Doesn't mean I'm not going to give it my best shot.

You may have noticed I'm also in a much better frame of mind after my awesome lifts.

 

[macrophage69alpha]

to amplify the lipolytic effect of Yohimburn add EC or NYC...

are you using DF or original? could be some water..

glucorellR could not hurt either.

the addition of tyrosine or n-acetyl-tyrosine will enhance fat burning effects of stims..

when are you using the yohimburn?

 

[spatts]

I'm a little confused. MS is a natty BB, and she competes, AND she does refeeds.

 

[JJFigure]

Spatts - that's why I wanted some input from her - I wanted to her how she refeeds - how often, how many kcals, and what foods. I have a feeling she doesn't refeed on Lucky Charms, like many others do.

Macro - I have the DF formula and use it first thing in the morning before am cardio. I don't use it on carb load days due to the higher kcal content of those days.

 

[newgirl-chargeback]

I have no input here but have been following this thread....JJ I just wish you all the positive things in the world....and much luck and great success in your cutting and competition.

 

[JJFigure]

Well - I think I've read everything "refeed" and "leptin" oriented on every board out there - BTW - wannabebig.com seemed to have the most info, surprisingly. I expected to see more in Avant Labs, but did get some decent advice from str8flexed over there. Basically, he told me to switch from a 2 day low gi carb load to a higher gi "refeed" 2x week, 250-350 grams of carb, post workout (ideally), and 6 hours in duration.

So, yesterday I put this into practice. I had my normal protein/fat meals up until my lift at 3:00, then at 4:00 I started my refeed with rice cakes and finished the evening with oatmeal. I may have gone a little conservative - my kcals for the day were ~2300 and carbs were 280. Depending on how I feel, I'll do the next one on either Tuesday or Wednesday, and maybe let loose a little more.

I did a sprint workout this morning and felt pretty darn good - 10x100s, a few plyos, and 2x100 walking lunges. The only downside (if you can call it that) to the refeed is I haven't been hungry at all today. I've noticed that in the past; when I've been averaging 1500 kcals/day, then eat a higher kcal day, the next day I don't have any appetite at all.

 

[JJFigure]

Allright, today I'm back to feeling really fatigued - just did 30 minutes on the elliptical and thought I was going to die.

 

[The Shadow]

death by ellipting - lol

 

[slinky]

Wanted to wish you the best, JJ. Good job so far, too on the cutting as well as the strength gains.

I agree with Cornholio about picking up the healthy fats. But I'm wondering if you should go the other way with HIIT. Pick up your HIIT and drop the steady cardio down a bit.

If you're use to performing steady cardio, you're body may be rather prepared and will hold onto the last vestiges of fat. In other words, you'll have to "trick" your body into convincing it to give up that last few percentages of BF.

Your contest isn't until June 7, right? For that reason, I'm thinking your kinda in this panic state too early, too. What I've done in the past is get practically in contest shape (above a few percentages in BF) by about 3-weeks out. Then I have a refeed day. I did this before my last contest; had steaks (two that day), just ate mucho food. My body thought I was taking in plenty of food so that it didn't need to hold onto that extra BF and my metabolism became the furnace it once was. I was the leanest in my class - and didn't sacrifice much in the way of LBM.

Don't scrimp on your refeed days. They'll maintain your strength, hold the fatigue at bay and keep your metabolism burning.

 

[JJFigure]

Thanks Slinky! Unfortunately, I've got two comps - one May 10 and the big guy on June 7. I'm looking pretty good; probably good enough for the May 10 one, but should definitely drop a couple more bodyfat % for the June 7. I need to get into the "7 week out" mindset instead of the "3 week out", and quit freaking. I actually just started doing some steady state 3 weeks ago - I had been doing solely HIIT, and still do 3 sessions/week. Knowing me, I'm just trying to do too much.

I think I went to low in kcal on my Sat refeed, so as soon as I can get to the store, I'll start up again tonight through tomorrow night and bump the kcals/carbs.

I swear, I feel like I'm walking underwater today.

Death by elliptical - I like that one Corn!

 

[MS]

Hi JJ

Apologies for taking so long to reply. I had some incredible backpacking I had to do (6-9 hours per day of cardio for 5 days and lots and lots of carbs and fats ).

First of all, don't panic. Second of all, what Wilson6 said. What works for me may not work for you. I have never used the anabolic diet, and I am a different person than you are. However I have had pretty good succes both personally and professionally with 1-3 all you wish to eat high carb refeeds per week. I have found counting calories or carbs on these refeeds to be non-productive. I personally have one meal refeeds that last several hours. For instance, on a Saturday morning I have my one 'endurance' session of the week (up and down a hill at low-moderate intensity for 2 hours) followed by a large serving of oatmeal for my first meal. Then I eat all I want of pasta, low-fat ice cream and Hershey's choc sauce for my last meal (plus a couple of whiskys before the meal). For me this is usually a Saturday, and I do this from week one of my diet. By week 4-6 I am adding in a second meal exactly the same on the Friday night (I train legs on Saturday morning at this stage so it goes to good use). By weeks 8-12, I often add a third night IN A ROW (Sunday night). I am approx 16-18% body fat at the start of my 12 week diet, around 12%bf when I add in the second refeed, and below 12% I need the third refeed to keep the fat loss going. I don't use a scale much except in the last 2 weeks if I'm trying to make a weight class. In your case weight doesn't matter, so don't worry at all about any water weight gain with the refeeds. Go by looks. Hopefully you have an impartial person to have a look at you on a regular basis to tell you how you are progressing.

The other side of the diet is the cardio. I increase my moderate intensity cardio as I get leaner and eat more. I actually increase my daily calorie intake as I get leaner, but I am also increasing my cardio gradually-from 3x30 minutes per week to 6x60 minutes, plus one 2 hour session, plus 6x30 evening sessions per week. This is A LOT of cardio, and I don not recommend you do this unless you are also increasing your calories.

I also add in thermogenics, glutamine and essential free form amino acids when I dip below 12%bf. I mean a lot. Additionally I take a protein drink to bed and sip that through the night when I am below 12%. It is a lot of work, and requires fine tuning for sure. So in my last 4 weeks pre-comp, my day might look something like this:

In bed at 7:30pm

10:30 pm get up to pee and sip some protein
2:30 am get up to pee and sip some protein
4:30 am down 10g glutamine plus 4g aminos, rub on or swallow some yohimbine, go for hour mixed cardio...also mix glutamine in water bottle to sip while doing cardio. Take another 4g aminos and a slug of glutamine straight after cardio.

7:30 am
breakfast (50g carbs, 35g protein, 10g EFAs, 3g creatine)

10 am weight train

11 am meal number 2 (35g carbs, 35 g protein)

1 pm meal number 3 (20g carbs plus fibrous veggies and 35g protein)

3 pm nap

4 pm meal number 4 (fibrous veggies and 35g protein)

5:30 pm 30 minute mixed cardio (with glutamine and aminos)

7 pm meal 5 (fibrous veggies and 35g protein)

And on, say Saturday, it would look the same except cardio is a cruisy 2 hour walk, meal number 1 would be 75g carbs from oats instead of 50, and meal number 5 would be whisky, unilimited pasta, ice cream and choc sauce....

PLEASE keep in mind YMMV and I have no expereince with the Anabolic diet.

 

[JJFigure]

Thank you MS! After my lack of success with a mini-refeed on Saturday (especially since I'm used to two carb load days in a row), I was wondering if it wasn't more beneficial to just lengthen/increase my carb load and keep with consecutive days.

I appreciate you taking the time to give me this detailed account of your pre-contest regime!

 

[spatts]

More good stuff...ladies THIS is how you get lean!!!!!