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HCG variances

MACHI

New member
After reading DBB's thread, kevin6's, and numerous others regarding HCG I have a question about it...

Way I see it - there are two schools of thought.....
1) (Common/Traditional) Taken during PCT to get boys back up and running...
2) Taken during the cycle to prevent the boys from atrophying at all....

I'm familiar with the first but not with the second. I'm looking for actual research that compares the two. From my foreknowledge and from looking at hundreds of cycles I find that most people prefer number 1.

If anyone has any sources of information for research with this stuff conducted in the manner I'm inquiring for, please post them. Also if you have used it BOTH ways, please enlighten me as to what way you thought was better and why.

Thanks in advance.
 
BUMP! I always want to know which way is better. There are always going to be advocates for both. I have yet to run it all the way through a cycle, but am contemplating it. Hopefully this will turn into a huge discussion. I do know that if HCG is taken for too long, or at too high a dosage, the LH receptor will actually become desensitized to LH, so if you go this route, you must be certain of the frequency and dosage you are using.

As it stands right now, I am in favour of using drjmw's recommendation of using it when all steroid has cleared your system, then trying to address the testes with a outside dose of LH. He has stated that this is what endocrinologists have ALWAYS done. Damn I wish we had a few endocrinologists on this board! :( I am on a waiting list for an endocrinologist to be my family doc. Please let it come true! lol. According to him, there is no reason why this should ever fail. It is proven and tested, and has been applied for years. If the user does not respond to drjmw's PCT protocol, the user either has a failure of the pituitary, or failure of the testes, and will more than likely require HRT indefinately.

I have heard some good info about using during, but I am not sold on it over drjmws protocol. I do see the point though where an once of prevention = a pound of cure.

Mavy
 
Ma'fuckin' BUMP!!!!!! Hopefully some mods and vets and smarty-pants like jenetic will chime in on this one.

I also think that duration and drug choice play a nice role in how you use HCG. For example someone running a var only cycle for example, should have less of a hard time recovering and probably wont need HCG throughout the cycle.

A good (but stupid) friend of mine, read somewhere that smoking depelets your stores of vitamin C, so after every smoke he has, he takes a 250mg vitamin C vitamin. lol. He thinks, well maybe its being depleted, but I am refilling it again. This is the same type of scenario I almost see when using HCG during. I guess I am just thinking that, you are going to become supressed while using steroids (whether your nuts shrink or not), you might as well accept this, and let it happen, instead of trying to fight it the whole way through. Let it happen, then address it when you are done your cycle.
 
Mavy said:
BUMP! I always want to know which way is better. There are always going to be advocates for both. I have yet to run it all the way through a cycle, but am contemplating it. Hopefully this will turn into a huge discussion. I do know that if HCG is taken for too long, or at too high a dosage, the LH receptor will actually become desensitized to LH, so if you go this route, you must be certain of the frequency and dosage you are using.
.......
Mavy

I agree with what you said. I see some validity in running it during a cycle but it just seems too dangerous. Do you know how HCG and LH are equivilant to each other on a mg/mg or mol/mol basis? What I mean by that is - does one molecule of HCG stimulate as much testosterone production from the Lyedig cells as one molecule of LH? I guess in order to really know if running HCG during a cycle will cause desensitization by overstimulation is to find out that equivilancy and then adjust the HCG dosage to the daily output of LH from the pituitary. Even then though you could run into problems of secretion times and quantities. Is LH secreted all throughout the day or is it like HGH and secreted mostly at night around bedtime. If daily output is 3mg throughout the course of the day and you inject 5mg all at one time EOD for a 12 week cycle I would think that this could (technically) lead to slight desensitization, more specifially because its on a 12 week period. I guess I'm in favor of HCG use druing PCT because you use it for a much shorter duration of time. Shit here is the question to answer then....

Are you more likely to desensitize the lyedig cells with 1 or 2
1) Injecting HCG at 250+% times normal output (LH) for 2-3 weeks
2) Injecting HCG at 100-110% times normal output (LH) for 10-12 weeks

LOL so yeah MAVY I'm hoping this will turn into a compare and contrast discussion as well.....
 
What your worried about is atrophy of the leydig cells. Leydig cells produce testosterone in the presence of LH. After doing research I am going to run HCG at low doses during cycle. I think the phrase "use it or lose it" comes to mind. Basically whats happening with steroids is your body does not need to produce testosterone so it tries to save resources by downregulating its testosterone producing capabilities.(= bad :( ) I don't see why there is any reason not to use physiological doses of HCG during cycle. Desensitisation should not occur if your running physiological doses of HCG.

I cannot find the other study I was looking for but basically it said HCG densensitizies the Leydig cells on an HCG-LH recepetor per cell basis, but because of the hyperplasia, the total number of HCG receptors actually upregulates(just like testosterone, upregulation in the presence of its receptor activator) because of the increase in cells.

Luteinizing hormone on Leydig cell structure and function.

Mendis-Handagama SM.

Department of Animal Science, College of Veterinary Medicine, University of Tennessee 37996, USA.

The effects of luteinizing hormone (LH) and human chorionic gonadotrophic hormone (hCG) on Leydig cell structure and function are reviewed in this paper under two main headings; responses to LH and hCG stimulation and responses to LH deprivation. With acute LH stimulation, up to 2 hours following the LH injection, there was no change in the volume of a Leydig cell. However, Leydig cell peroxisomal volume and intraperoxisomal SCP2 content showed a rapid and transient change. These changes can be considered to be specific because: i) no other Leydig cell organelle including smooth endoplasmic reticulum (SER) showed such a change, and ii) only the intraperoxisomal SCP2 but not catalase (a marker enzyme for peroxisomes) showed such a change within 30 minutes of LH stimulation. As these changes occurred prior to the peak testosterone levels following this treatment, it is suggested that SCP2 and peroxisomes may have an association with testosterone biosynthesis prior to cholesterol transport into mitochondria. With LH or hCG stimulation for longer periods, i.e. one day or more, the same morphological changes are produced in Leydig cells irrespective of the age of the species, dosage of LH or hCG, and with single or multiple doses. These changes include, Leydig cells hypertrophy and/or hyperplasia, increase in the cellular organelle content (mostly SER and mitochondria) and depletion of lipid droplets. In addition, a recent study showed that Leydig cell peroxisomal volume, SCP2 content, the amount of intraperoxisomal SCP2 and testosterone secretory capacity were also significantly increased in response to chronic LH treatment. The effects of LH deprivation by whatever means (e.g. hypophysectomy, with testosterone and 17 beta-estradiol silastic implants, LH antisera) on Leydig cell structure and function is generally described as opposite to those observed following LH or hCG stimulation. These include Leydig cell hypotrophy and hypoplasia, reductions in the cytoplasmic organelle content in general and specific reductions in SER and peroxisomal volumes, reductions in total catalase and SCP2 in Leydig cells together with reductions in the intraperoxisomal SCP2 content in Leydig cells and their testosterone secretory capacity.

Morphological and functional responses of rat Leydig cells to a prolonged treatment with human chorionic gonadotropins.

Andreis PG, Cavallini L, Malendowicz LK, Belloni AS, Rebuffat P, Mazzocchi G, Nussdorfer GG.

Department of Anatomy, University of Padua, Italy.

The morphological and functional responses of rat Leydig cells to a 3- and 6-day treatment with human chorionic gonadotropins (hCG) (10 IU/kg/day) were investigated by morphometric and radioimmunological techniques. hCG-administration induced a notable time-dependent enhancement in the steroidogenic capacity and growth of Leydig cells; this last was almost exclusively due to hypertrophy (and not to hyperplasia). The volume of mitochondrial and peroxisome compartments, as well as the surface area per cell of mitochondrial cristae and smooth endoplasmic reticulum (SER) were significantly increased after hCG treatment, and showed a highly significant positive linear correlation with both basal and stimulated testosterone production by isolated Leydig cells of the contralateral testis. Also the volume of nuclei and lipid-droplet compartment and the surface area per cell of Golgi apparatus displayed a notable hCG-induced rise, but they did not correlate with testosterone secretion. These findings suggest that, in addition to mitochondria and SER, in which the enzymes of steroid synthesis are located, peroxisomes are also specifically involved in the secretory activity of rat Leydig cells.

Leydig cell hypertrophy and hyperplasia in adult rats treated with an excess of human chorionic gonadotrophin (hCG).

Lamano-Carvalho TL, Favaretto AL, Silva AA, Antunes-Rodrigues J.

A morphometric study was undertaken to determine to what extent the increase in LEYDIG cell activity is related to an increase in their number and/or size. An attempt was also made to consider the morphological characteristics of the cells in terms of their probable functional capacity. Following 8 h to 3 d of excess hCG treatment, LEYDIG cells nuclear volume exhibited an increase of 16 to 18% while no significant increase in cells number was observed. By 7 d of hCG treatment, the nuclear hypertrophy (42%) coexisted with hyperplasia (33%). After 14 d of stimulation, a 41% augment in cells number and 31% increase in nuclear volumes were found. Such morphometric parameters were correlated with plasma levels of testosterone. The results suggest that hypertrophy plays a more important role in the enhancement of LEYDIG cells secretory activity in the initial phase of hCG stimulation. A subsequent hyperplasia seems to become relatively more important in longer periods of treatment. Our findings support the statement that both hCG dose and time of treatment, and consequently the plasma level of testosterone, are important parameters to be considered when the functional activity of LEYDIG cells is been evaluated by morphometric techniques.
 
Last edited:
MACHI said:
I agree with what you said. I see some validity in running it during a cycle but it just seems too dangerous. Do you know how HCG and LH are equivilant to each other on a mg/mg or mol/mol basis? What I mean by that is - does one molecule of HCG stimulate as much testosterone production from the Lyedig cells as one molecule of LH? I guess in order to really know if running HCG during a cycle will cause desensitization by overstimulation is to find out that equivilancy and then adjust the HCG dosage to the daily output of LH from the pituitary. Even then though you could run into problems of secretion times and quantities. Is LH secreted all throughout the day or is it like HGH and secreted mostly at night around bedtime. If daily output is 3mg throughout the course of the day and you inject 5mg all at one time EOD for a 12 week cycle I would think that this could (technically) lead to slight desensitization, more specifially because its on a 12 week period. I guess I'm in favor of HCG use druing PCT because you use it for a much shorter duration of time. Shit here is the question to answer then....

Are you more likely to desensitize the lyedig cells with 1 or 2
1) Injecting HCG at 250+% times normal output (LH) for 2-3 weeks
2) Injecting HCG at 100-110% times normal output (LH) for 10-12 weeks

LOL so yeah MAVY I'm hoping this will turn into a compare and contrast discussion as well.....

BUMP for Mods and Vets ;)
 
what is size dosage is considered small anough to use during cycle so as to not desensivise (wow, college did wonders for my spelling :rolleyes: )
 
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