Diet help

[Hoffmeister]

I try to be as open-minded as possible. Hey, I try to make clear I'm NOT an expert in any way, shape or form on this stuff. Hell, I even skipped out of high school biology to take more math classes

But there are a few people I do consider experts. Lyle Mcdonald, Elzi Volk. Par Deus, who posts over here some. Pat Arnold. These people do back up their opinions with research, and real world experiences. I don't have the time, nor the expertise, to research some of these issues and make judgements. So when these people post something, and back it up, I give it much more credibility. Personally I think MFW, for all its faults, has some of the most up to date information on training and diets you can find anywhere. If you can wade thru the BS.

I think you're right about variability between individuals. "Calories In vs Calories Out" is oversimplified; obviously, there are some other prerequisites (enough protein, EFA's, etc.). Someone here posted probably the best advice; the best diet is one you can live with.

For example, obviously low-carb diets will work. Personally, I don't think it has anything to do with "ketosis", though. I think they work because:

1) It's virtually impossible NOT to get enough protein on them, as long as you aren't going to insane calorie levels.

2) They seem to effectively blunt appetite, and get rid of the typical blood sugar spikes and crashes associated with the typical persons diet.

You're also right about taking the studies with a grain of salt. I think Lyle even came to that conclusion regarding some of the keto studies he has quoted; for example, on "protein sparing". The studies were mostly done on extremely low calorie levels. Would they show the same if both sides were getting adequate protein?

As for getting "ripped" on refeeds, I think you're wrong here. I think many people have gotten ripped using CKD's, and from Lyle's recent posts he now believes it is the "carb-up" portion of this that makes it work, not the keto. I'm certainly not "ripped", but I think Lyle, Par Deus, Elzi, have used these with non-keto to get there.

Sorry for the length. My main goal here is to try and relay some of the more recent information I've picked up. I see alot of old myths perpetuated here: "6 meals a day for metabolism"; "no carbs in the evening"; "morning cardio/fat burning zone cardio"; etc. People seem to try and make this alot more complicated than it really is. Some may need a set of rigid rules, but for many others, I think they fail because they can't follow them. And then give up, thinking these are sort of "laws of dieting" that can't be broken.

 

[gy]

Thanks for the feedback. While I don't agree with all of your points, it's nice to exchange ideas on this forum.

Allow me to clarify, I was not referring to CKD's when noting that refeed schedules ,as they are postulated on MFW, have been innefficient in getting peolple extremely lean. I should have been clearer. Many people I have spoken to have employed the reccommended re-feed schedules as proposed on MFW (isocaloric hypocaloric for three-five days followed by 1-2 days of hypercalories depending on B.F. level etc...) with little success(myself included). I think the problem is that Leptin/bmr may not be upregulated with one to two days of above maintenance calories enough to allow dieting to really be that much more successful in coming days. On the other hand if you were to extend your refeed in length or quantity, then you may very well upregulate Leptin levels but you would risk gaining back some of the weight you had lost. Don't forget Leptin is a product of glucose metabolism/insulin but also of fat cells...meaning less adipocytes...less leptin. This begs the question: can you trully and significantly upregulate Leptin unless you cause some increase in adiposity? Again from what I have been told from many who regularly read and apply MFW idealogy the answer so far has been: it's not clear. I'm not arguing the importance or neccessity of Leptin or it's up-regualtion but I feel that in the real world it's very difficult to do what uptill now has only been successful via laboratory injections. Lyle, himself has brought up this point several times. Again let me clarify that my above statements do not apply to a CKD, wherein the carb up is tailored to refill muscle glycogen and stop muscle catabolism while hopefully providing an anbolic millieu(at least for a while), while also limiting fat generation(which *may* be counterproductive in attempting to increase Leptin levels). Once more, my observations are based on what others have told me. Yes, it's anecdotal evidence at best, but I'll take real world results over charts and graphs any day.(Also this is not the same thing as Hatfield's zig zag diet wherein the high cal days are much more modest than "Leptin re-feeds").

Additionally, I trully respect the three people you mentioned above, there intelligence and dedication to reading and comprehending the latest research is fantastic. However, again I think Lyle would be the first to admit he has been wrong many times before and may very well be wrong again(that is a sign of greatness in my book). To me it doesn't matter if Lyle or Elzi are ripped or not, their work is much more admirable. The coach doesn't have to be the fastest man on the track LOL. But by the same token, I don't think we can label the trial and error's of a regular Joe BB less important just because he doesnt read JAMA. His/her insights are just as valuable as those guys wearing white lab coats because ultimately what happens in rats or humans in a study doesn't mean a whole lot if it's just not working for you. I am not saying you were making that descrepency, I just wanted to make that point on it's own.

Let me give you an example, now many people don't like T-mag or Biotest, however you can't argue with how lean Tim Patterson is. And here's the kicker he uses a diet that would be considered ridiculuous by many: 50/40/10 p/c/f...i.e. much too high in carbs and too low in fats, no re-feed days etc... So is he wrong or has he just found something that works very well him, even if it goes against what many on MFW or even on his site would say? Another is a member of this board (who's screen name escapes me right now) who used a low cal ketogenic diet to get ripped with absolutely no carb-ups. Wasn't Leptin supposed to down regulate and halt all his progress? What about the person who eats crap year round but maintains a body fat south of 7% on a daily basis? My point is that people are unique and sometimes established research/knowledge doesn't apply to everyone even if it is posted on MFW lol!

Thanks again for your input, it's very much appreciate. Your success has shown you are integrating the science into your lifestyle extremely well, I commend you for that. I just feel we should entertain all ideas regardless of wether or not the author is as intellectually polished as someone else, because in life things don't always work out like they are supposed to because we are all unique and constantly changing.

 

[Hoffmeister]

Actually, I think we're both trying to make the same general point.

That is, if something works for YOU, great. If it doesn't, try something else. I think too many people have the attitude that it's "my way or the highway".

I figure that if I can leverage off of the research and experience of other people, so much the better. You're right, Lyle has admitted to being wrong in the past. One of the main reasons I listen to the things he has to say now. He hasn't remained dogmatic about his opinions in the face of better information. I respect that alot.

I'm starting on a phase to try and add some muscle, and plan on keeping a log on the web. Going to try and do this just by manipulating my diet. Doing this also as sort of a "baseline"; I've been researching prohormones, and will probably give them a try in the future. I figure at 40, they have the potential to be pretty effective. But I want to have a baseline to compare results with.

Forums like MFW and here can be great places to exchange information. People don't always have to agree.

Anyway, gotta get shit done today, so I'll catch you later.

 

[keiko]

WHy are you eating teryaki chicken--the sauce is loaded with sugar. If you're working out in the am, on an empty stomach, I don't think that the pineapple post-workout is as good as a simple sugar without fructose. Also, you can get better carbs with more fiber than tortillas--try yams or oatmeal earlier in the day. You could add more fiberous carbs--like romaine, mustard greens, etc. with olive oil or avocado.

 

[blood_drinker]

You can take many studies with a grain of salt, but just because you do you need not oversimplify things when you are not even sure it works yourself. I agree that the calories in vs calories out is the biggest misconception. WTF, yeah you will lose weight, but we are looking into taping into fat stores not to go into starvation mode and into a catalist state. Bro, if you workout late, do not be scared to eat the carbs post workout. You NEED them. Regardless of the carbs in the evening theory. Now, the no carbs in evening theory is basically a shortened versio of a carb deplete, so when you wake up after an 8 hour fast, your carb stores are really low, so theoretically the cardio will tap right into the fat stores, thus burning fat immediately.
Aboout the fat topic, Flax oil, and natural peanut butter are great choices as well for the fats. Olive oil is just more versatile and doesnt taste like shit. Now back to morning cardio. The morning cardio theory has been disproven as well in the womens board. But it all boils down to personal experience vs theory. In my experience, and that of MANY MANY others, morning cardio burns the most fat, considering its mixed in with proper diet and training, you should not lose much (in fact practically any noticeable) lbm. I know that an 8 hour fast and then HI training is the perfect environment for catabolism, in theory yes. But supply your body with sufficient protein and the correct diet throughout the rest of the day and youll be just fine. Trust me on this one. However be sure to have your diet tuned and reviewed by the many dudes in this board that can help, otherwise you will lose the mass. Morning cardio vs. evening cardio = the all work, its just a question of efficiency.

 

[Hoffmeister]

Well, got the lawn mowed at least

Hey, blood, like I said, if it works, great.

Again, just trying to interject some different opinions here, that appear to be backed up by some evidence. Take this whole issue of "fat burning cardio", whether it's early morning, or at "fat burning levels", or without carbs in the evening.

Yes, you may use more fat as fuel. But it's pretty inconsequential overall. So you may burn 300 calories. Even assuming it's ALL fat (probably not), it would still take 12 sessions of these to even lose 1 lbs of fat. Considering cardio done other times will STILL lose some fat, the difference is even quite a bit less than that.

This is one place where studies HAVE shown a dramatic difference. Seriously, look at doing intervals. No, it's not "aerobic"; but the point is NOT what you burn DURING cardio, but the rest of the day. Here's some links:

http://www.wsu.edu/~strength/HIIT.htm

http://www.exrx.net/FatLoss/HIITvsET.html

Doing less overall work, in less time, those doing intervals lost 3 times as much fat based on caliper measurements.

Have a great weekend, folks. Gotta go clean carpets

Oh, and break open the Twizzlers

 

[gymtime]

My brain hurts now.....

OK, seriously. That was great information! Thanks to all for the time. It seems that for every diet I have tried, whether CKD, 40-30-30, whatever, I'll see good initial changes and then it's as if my body turns on me, adjusting to the diet and I start going the other direction. Genetics? My turtle metabolism? I don't know. I guess I just have to keep trying to see what works the best.

I'll likely be posting more questions in the future. Thanks again everyone!

 

[blood_drinker]

Thats pretty strange. Unless you stick to the diet for 12+ weeks, you shouldnt really adapt. I think you are doing something wrong. Post your diet and you HAVE to count cal and macro nutrient totals. It does not take long.
Go to www.cyberdiet.com
Go to the bottom, and click on Search our database of foods at the bottom, its in blue.

Takes less than half an hour

 

[gymtime]

OK OK, if I have to.

I'm just checking that site out now Blood. Thanks man.

 

[dieslgrl]

cardio

Try doing more cardio... five times a week, 25-30 minutes at least at a time.. Train hard...

On the diet, you have a good thing going, but you could try for a week or two and get rid of all dairy products, and see how your body responds... For me, dairy keeps my skin thick and I hold some water, but who's to say that is what it does to you??

Play with your diet a bit... If getting rid of the dairy does nothing, then cut your carbs for a week or two... see if you tighten up more... Then if you are lacking energy from low carbs, and your training is suffering, try reducing your protein to 1g per pound of bodyweight and keeping your carbs at .75g per pound of bodyweight... Get to know your body... Keep a journal, and figure out your grams... Make a six week plan and set a goal for yourself... Write down the times that you eat, your amounts and an estimated gram per gram basis... You will tighten up by simply paying closer attention to the actual foods you are eating... Try taking Saturday morning as a cheat instead of Saturday night...

There are many things you can do... So be creative...

Dieslgrl