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Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up now!
- Thread starter BionicBC
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Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n
Use the barbell as the default. You can't use as much weight on dumbells and it's a lot harder to increase them incrementally i.e. you have to go up 5lbs in each hand so 10lbs minimum increase, if you are using 50's that's a 10lbs increase on 100lbs total so 10% - rediculous.
Czar87 said:
Use the barbell as the default. You can't use as much weight on dumbells and it's a lot harder to increase them incrementally i.e. you have to go up 5lbs in each hand so 10lbs minimum increase, if you are using 50's that's a 10lbs increase on 100lbs total so 10% - rediculous.
Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n
Dual factor is not a program. It's a theory of how the body works. All exercise is dual factor in reality but generally one is talking about higher levels of workload to manipulate fatigue. Fatigue is systemic, you can't think about it in bodyparts. Makes no sense. What you should do for bis and tris is to focus on lifts that really matter (presses and rows) while throwing in a few sets of direct work each week and trying to get better at it.
Czar87 said:
Dual factor is not a program. It's a theory of how the body works. All exercise is dual factor in reality but generally one is talking about higher levels of workload to manipulate fatigue. Fatigue is systemic, you can't think about it in bodyparts. Makes no sense. What you should do for bis and tris is to focus on lifts that really matter (presses and rows) while throwing in a few sets of direct work each week and trying to get better at it.
Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n
Sounds like whatever you are doing for running is having an impact on your leg power. Maybe you are doing something new? No real answer but if you squat continues to deteriorate and progression becomes impossible, you'll obviously have to deal with it.
Protobuilder said:
Sounds like whatever you are doing for running is having an impact on your leg power. Maybe you are doing something new? No real answer but if you squat continues to deteriorate and progression becomes impossible, you'll obviously have to deal with it.
Madcow,
I had a journal on Elite covering my 1st dual factor attempt and made it to the 8th week but due to a strained quad or hip flexor I've had to lay off (injury from bball not lifting). I just wanted to touch base and let you know the results I've seen post DF 5x5.
In the last week of Dec the pain was too much and I decided to stop everything leg related and rest for about 1 to 1.5 months - by the end of Jan my hip was feeling much better and I decided to do some light running and swimming one day - bad idea - I started getting pain all over again although not as severe - after consulting a physician they said rest at least one more month - typically, I understand it's 6/8 weeks for soft tissue to heal and then you have to start light.
At any rate, I kept lifting upper body and went back to 1 to 2 body parts a day which I did not want to do because I don’t get nearly as much out of it but am limited at the time - while it has been frustrating and depressing (seriously depressing to the point where I am completely unmotivated and count the minutes at the gym each day) I have seen some of the benefits of the 5x5 (sorry these are not body measurements but I kept track of things based on rep/weight):
- my bench went from STRUGGLING for 2 reps at 275 to 4.5 without much issue and I feel like I could hit 5 to 5.5 very soon.
- my back is stronger although it's not showing in pull-ups as much (stuck at 10 for wide but narrow are up to 12) it is showing when doing bent-over db rows (100 lbs is no problem and would do more if the gym had them) - hammer strength pull-downs are also way up
- bi's and tri's have shot up immensely as 135 barbell curls are not difficult and weight dips with 45 for 3 sets of 10 is getting easier
Some of the odd things I’ve noticed since doing the 5x5:
- my legs actually thinned up a little - my strength was up, but they are smaller, it's like the fat started to leave - I didn't realize I had much fat in them but apparently I did
- the same goes with arms, they are skinnier - ESPECIALLY my forearms, but the strength is up
One major negative is that since I stopped doing the 5x5 and am stuck with hitting the upper-body is that since you use arms for almost everything, they are exhausted and I need to start taking at least one day off every other week. If you have any ideas on any other routines I can do while waiting this injury out, please let me know.
Thanks for all of your help with this and I look forward to using the 5x5 DF theory again.
I had a journal on Elite covering my 1st dual factor attempt and made it to the 8th week but due to a strained quad or hip flexor I've had to lay off (injury from bball not lifting). I just wanted to touch base and let you know the results I've seen post DF 5x5.
In the last week of Dec the pain was too much and I decided to stop everything leg related and rest for about 1 to 1.5 months - by the end of Jan my hip was feeling much better and I decided to do some light running and swimming one day - bad idea - I started getting pain all over again although not as severe - after consulting a physician they said rest at least one more month - typically, I understand it's 6/8 weeks for soft tissue to heal and then you have to start light.
At any rate, I kept lifting upper body and went back to 1 to 2 body parts a day which I did not want to do because I don’t get nearly as much out of it but am limited at the time - while it has been frustrating and depressing (seriously depressing to the point where I am completely unmotivated and count the minutes at the gym each day) I have seen some of the benefits of the 5x5 (sorry these are not body measurements but I kept track of things based on rep/weight):
- my bench went from STRUGGLING for 2 reps at 275 to 4.5 without much issue and I feel like I could hit 5 to 5.5 very soon.
- my back is stronger although it's not showing in pull-ups as much (stuck at 10 for wide but narrow are up to 12) it is showing when doing bent-over db rows (100 lbs is no problem and would do more if the gym had them) - hammer strength pull-downs are also way up
- bi's and tri's have shot up immensely as 135 barbell curls are not difficult and weight dips with 45 for 3 sets of 10 is getting easier
Some of the odd things I’ve noticed since doing the 5x5:
- my legs actually thinned up a little - my strength was up, but they are smaller, it's like the fat started to leave - I didn't realize I had much fat in them but apparently I did
- the same goes with arms, they are skinnier - ESPECIALLY my forearms, but the strength is up
One major negative is that since I stopped doing the 5x5 and am stuck with hitting the upper-body is that since you use arms for almost everything, they are exhausted and I need to start taking at least one day off every other week. If you have any ideas on any other routines I can do while waiting this injury out, please let me know.
Thanks for all of your help with this and I look forward to using the 5x5 DF theory again.
Last edited:
On wednesday on single factor you can either do incline bench or military press...could you do both so:
light squat
deadlift
military press
incline bench
would this be ok as my chest is weak and need to hit this but shoulders also lagging and military press is great exercise?
light squat
deadlift
military press
incline bench
would this be ok as my chest is weak and need to hit this but shoulders also lagging and military press is great exercise?
Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n
No. This is what's wrong with most people's workouts. They want to do everything all at once and just like in life, you can't get really good at 30 different things at once. Incline involves a ton of shoulder work as does all pressing and rowing. Choose one and go with it. It's just a training cycle, not a lifetime commitment. Another option if you have an adjustable bench and rack, change flat to slight incline presses - so less than the standard degree but not full flat and then do standing military.
hspadda said:
No. This is what's wrong with most people's workouts. They want to do everything all at once and just like in life, you can't get really good at 30 different things at once. Incline involves a ton of shoulder work as does all pressing and rowing. Choose one and go with it. It's just a training cycle, not a lifetime commitment. Another option if you have an adjustable bench and rack, change flat to slight incline presses - so less than the standard degree but not full flat and then do standing military.
Guinness5.0
New member
hspadda:
I think you may be very pleasantly surprised by better overall chest development from just running a solid program. I found that doing the program with just flat bench and standing military didn't hurt my symetry/balance one bit - if anything it's improved. I know it sounds like I'm so sold on it that I'd say anything
, but I swear it's true.
For now I only do incline stuff for fun or if I want to press w/out involving my lats as much. So I'd advise that you try it and see. Like madcow said, it's not a long term commitment and you'll find out soon enough if what held true for me holds for you also.
I think you may be very pleasantly surprised by better overall chest development from just running a solid program. I found that doing the program with just flat bench and standing military didn't hurt my symetry/balance one bit - if anything it's improved. I know it sounds like I'm so sold on it that I'd say anything
, but I swear it's true.For now I only do incline stuff for fun or if I want to press w/out involving my lats as much. So I'd advise that you try it and see. Like madcow said, it's not a long term commitment and you'll find out soon enough if what held true for me holds for you also.
Protobuilder
New member
hspadda said:
Do you mean your chest is weak, as in "not strong"? Or do you mean it's not very big and you'd like it to be big? I bet your talking about the latter. Now, be honest -- is your chest bizaarely behind the rest of your body or are you just chasing the beach muscle "big chest & guns, get laid" look? Because I don't know ANYBODY who has a small chest but huge quads, hammies, lower back, lats, etc. My point is this -- work on adding muscle to your body PERIOD. Don't worry about prioritizing your chest with this program. Just follow it. The more crap you throw in, the harder it is to reach this program's goals. Do the program. And LEARN. And if someday you think your chest hasn't grown enough, you can prioritize it. But first, add some muscle all over.
Guinness5.0
New member
Have 'em check out madcow's website - it's kind of a 'greatest hits' collection from this thread:Whiskey said:
http://www.geocities.com/elitemadcow1/
blut wump
New member
Go for the Intermediate version - Single Factor. It's a good way to acclimatize to this style of training and could get you a nice string of PRs for a few months. Eventually, it will stop working for you and you'll need to move to periodized training but milk the SF version for as long as it gives results.
blut wump
New member
Here's the section on Madcow's site:
http://www.geocities.com/elitemadcow1/5x5_Program/Linear_5x5.htm
There are several SF logs in the forum here, too. You should be able to spot them.
http://www.geocities.com/elitemadcow1/5x5_Program/Linear_5x5.htm
There are several SF logs in the forum here, too. You should be able to spot them.
Protobuilder
New member
Good example of OLY squat here (linked on the rt. side of the page)
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showthread.php?t=460292
For 5x5 purposes, the goal is really just to do a full ROM squat, whether you call it "oly" or "a2g" or "ass to floor" or w/e doesn't matter -- go as far down as you can. The distinction really is between "parallel" squats (half squats really) and "full ROM" squat.
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showthread.php?t=460292
For 5x5 purposes, the goal is really just to do a full ROM squat, whether you call it "oly" or "a2g" or "ass to floor" or w/e doesn't matter -- go as far down as you can. The distinction really is between "parallel" squats (half squats really) and "full ROM" squat.
Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n
Note: I have a more complete and better formatted description along with a template download and a ton of other information in this link: http://www.geocities.com/elitemadcow1/5x5_Program/Linear_5x5.htm. This will be the final update to this post, anything new will go in the Geocities site.
-------------------------------------------------------------
INTRODUCTION:
Relatively easy program to understand. It nicely illustrates the importance of making systematic progression to drive gains and increase the core lifts.
HISTORY:
One of the many flavors of Bill Starr's 5x5 workouts. This particular one is designed with the intermediate lifter in mind and is from the Deep Squatter site. Deep Squatter (www.deepsquatter.com) is a great site so make sure you check it out along with all the great info located in the archives. Someone who has experience with the lifts and some decent training history should do quite well. It's important to keep in mind that this program is a snapshot, training changes with time, you don't do it forever, to get a better idea on how training changes over time I'd encourage people to read this interview from Glenn Pendlay and Mark Rippetoe on programming http://www.readthecore.com/200510/markr.htm.
USAGE:
This program is based on weekly linear progress. You take your current 5 rep maxes (5RM) and work up to them systematically by increasing weights in steady increments over 3-4 weeks. You then hit your current 5RM on lifts and continue these incremental increases week to week which pushes you further and further out making new personal records (PRs) every week until you stall on the majority of your lifts. If you miss reps, keep the weight constant the next week and don't move it up until you get all 5x5. When you eventually stall on the majority of lifts, and you will, meaning something like several weeks of no progress in that you can't add reps or weight, you'll have to reset lower back several weeks and begin again. If it's just one lift that has you stuck, reset on that and work up again but don't restart the whole program. When restarting the whole program, a lot of times changing variables is also helpful here. I'm not going to cover that. Training is a blend of art and science, and knowing what parameters to change for a given lifter is more art. This is a cookie-cutter, it's meant to get you big and strong, and more importantly training correctly. The best programs are always tailored to a given trainee so being your own coach, you have to learn and seek out knowledge (generally not in bodybuilding sources as a rule and this will seldom do you wrong).
Rep speed is natural, time between sets is what you need. Don't rapid fire compound lifts but don't be lazy. 2-5 minutes is probably right with 5 minutes being needed after a very taxing effort.
If you've just randomly come to this topic or been provided a link - there is a large amount of information here: Table of Contents
-------------------------------------------------------------
CORE DESCRIPTION:
Before beginning it is useful to know your 1 rep maxes or more ideally your real 5 rep max in each lift (there is a table and calculator in the TOC). If you don't know this - it might be useful to test your lifts first or start light and allow for some flexibility in the weekly planning. The whole key is the weekly progression and keeping workload low enough to not overwhelm someone with fatigue and enable them to get out in front and set records for as many weeks as possible. Said a different way, the stimulus is not getting under the bar once with heavy weight but getting under it frequently and systematically increasing week to week starting within your limits and slowly expanding.
Exercise Sets x Reps
Details
Monday
Squat 5x5
Ramping weight to top set of 5 (which should equal the previous Friday's heavy triple)
Bench 5x5
Ramping weight to top set of 5 (which should equal the previous Friday's heavy triple)
Barbell Row 5x5
Ramping weight to top set of 5 (which should equal the previous Friday's heavy triple)
Assistance: 2 sets of weighted hypers and 4 sets of weighted sit-ups
Wednesday
Squat 4x5
First 3 sets are the same as Monday, the 4th set is repeating the 3rd set again
Incline or Military 4x5
Ramping weight to top set of 5
Deadlift 4x5
Ramping weight to top set of 5
Assistance: 3 sets of sit-ups
Friday
Squat 4x5, 1x3, 1x8
First 4 sets are the same as Monday's, the triple is 2.5% above your Monday top set of 5, use the weight from the 3rd set for a final set of 8
Bench 4x5, 1x3, 1x8
First 4 sets are the same as Monday's, the triple is 2.5% above your Monday top set of 5, use the weight from the 3rd set for a final set of 8
Barbell Row 4x5, 1x3, 1x8
First 4 sets are the same as Monday's, the triple is 2.5% above your Monday top set of 5, use the weight from the 3rd set for a final set of 8
Assistance: 3 sets of weighted dips (5-8 reps), 3 sets of barbell curls and 3 sets of triceps extensions (8 reps)
The Progression:
So it's pretty obvious what's going on in this example is weekly increases of 2.5% of your top set of 5 on Monday. So you do 100lbs for 5 on your top set on Monday. Then on Friday you do a triple with 2.5% more, or 102.5. The next Monday you come back and do 102.5 for your heavy set of 5, that Friday the triple is 105 and so on. For the non-squat Wednesday lifts you just increase by the percentage week to week.
Of course you start with a good margin to give yourself a run so you have to back into the initial weeks' weights. That means using some math. Put your current 5 rep maxes at week 4, figure out what 2.5% of the number is and go back and put that for week 3, do that back until you get to week 1. The Friday triple is always the next week's Monday set of 5. Pretty easy.*
Ramping Weights:
This is basically increasing your weight set to set like warming up. If your top set of 5 is 315, you might go 135, 185, 225, 275, and then 315 all for 5 reps. There are several reasons for this, you are warming up, getting a lot of practice and really groove the coordination of the lifts, and contributing to workload without raising it so high that fatigue overcomes you and you overtrain. If you do 315 for all 5 sets, workload is a lot higher and doing that a couple of times a week ensures that you won't last long on this program.
Typically jumps can be somewhere between 10-15% per set based on your top set (or 12.5% and round up or down). An easy way to figure this is to find out what 10% and 15% are for your top set and then track backwards into the other sets using the variance to round or help it make sense.
Example:
Your top set is 100lbs
10% is 10lbs and 15% is 15lbs
Your 5th set is 100x5, 4th is 90x5, 3rd is 80x5, 2nd is 70x5, and 1st is 60x5
These are the minimum jumps of 10%, the math doesn't always look this neat but using 12.5% isn't as intuitively easy to see for explaining this.
Make sure this makes sense and you aren't so strong as to make the jumps ridiculous at 10-15%. But keep in mind, going 200, 205, 210, 215, and 220 is a lot closer to 220 for 5x5 and that's too much on this kind of frequency, it will fatigue you a lot faster (i.e. prevent you from progressing) and hurt your ability to get as much as possible with your top set.
*Note: for the math inclined you probably realized that when moving up in weight you are taking 2.5% of the current weight but when I have you set up the initial weeks moving backward you are taking 2.5% off the forward week which is a slightly larger number than moving in the other direction. So if you want to really be exact, you can work it out the other way but the math is harder.
-------------------------------------------------------------
OTHER PERTINENT INFORMATION
The Lifts:
Squats - these should be full range Olympic style squats. Use the full range of your body - that means as low as you can go which for almost everyone is past parallel. If the top of your thighs aren't at least parallel it's for shit. If you think this is bad for your knees going low, you and whoever told you that are relying on an old wives tale. Anyone who knows the human body will tell you that below parallel is MUCH safer on the knees whereas parallel and above put all the sheer right on them and doesn’t allow proper transfer of the load to the rest of your body (this is how your body was designed). Read the Squat article from Arioch linked in the TOC for a complete description and references on the mechanics of the squat and depth.
Deads - each rep is deweighted fully on the floor. No touch and go. This is called the 'dead'lift because the weight is 'dead' on the ground. You can touch and go warm ups but that's it.
Military - standing overhead presses. Supporting weight overhead is a fundamental exercise and stimulates the whole body. Push presses are a fine substitute.
Rows - 90 degrees and done dynamically (Accelerate the weight into your body - do not jerk it but constantly increase the pace like an oar through water). There is a TOC topic on rows, a good read that also illustrates a version done from the floor.
Common Sense - you should know how to do the lifts before starting a program like this. Start light and learn. Don't include brand new compound lifts that have you training near your limit without some time in. This is how you get hurt. Compound lifts load the entire body and are very effective. If you have a weak link, they will bring it up - of course if you haven't trained the lift long enough for this to happen your weak link may get you hurt. Use your brain.
The rest is self explanatory.
Time Between Sets:
Don't over think this. Use a natural rep speed, take what you need between sets. Don't be lazy but don't rush. You can't be doing rapid fire sets of big compound lifts. Maybe on the lightest warm-ups you take a minute but most sets will be 2-5 minute range with 2 being between fairly easy sets and 5 being after a heavy set in preparation for another very serious major effort that drains you. I can see exceeding the 5 minute limit by a tad when really pushing near failure in the PR weeks when you are uncertain of getting your reps on your last set. Just use your brain and don't micromanage.
Diet:
Depends on whether you are trying to gain muscle or what. I will say that for gaining muscle, caloric excess must be present. Read the caloric excess topic in the table of contents. More people, particularly bodybuilders, go wrong here. If caloric excess is present and training stinks, you will get fatter. The few guys who have come back with no weight gain got very strong and gained no net weight - guess what - they were already fairly lean (i.e. no excess in their diet otherwise they'd have been fatter) and they didn't gain fat or muscle (no caloric excess during training). There's nothing any program can do if you won't eat. For the purposes of gaining muscle or getting big and strong it's better to eat McDonalds and KFC all day long than not eat enough Zen clean ultra pure food which might be healthier but if not enough there's simply nothing to use to grow. So caloric excess is a requirement, you don't need to eat like a slob but it will work infinitely better than not eating enough healthy food for this purpose. Lots of people have gotten big and strong on diets that were bad, if you choose to eat squeaky clean, kudos to you but it is not critical to putting on muscle (it might be critical to a long high quality life though).
Incorporating the Olympic Lifts:
The above is basically setup for someone who doesn't know the OLs. Starr's original workout included Power Cleans and High Pulls. Instead of Bent Rows substitute Power Cleans. Rather than Deads substitute High Pulls. That’s a quick and dirty way of handling this without much disruption.
Substituting Exercises:
Don't fuck with this. Every bodybuilder seems to have Attention Deficit Disorder and an overwhelming desire to customize everything. The bottom line is that these are all the most effective exercises and just about anything one does will result in less gains. As a rule those people who want to change it don't know enough to make proper alterations - those who do know enough, don't have much to change. The guy who is responsible for this program is of the best on the planet at bulking lifters and making people stronger. It's kind of like Sesame Street's Elmo offering neurosurgery advice at NYU. Anyway, it's absolutely essential not to screw with the squats, they are the foundation of this program. If you want to sub inclines or push presses for military that's okay. Do not sub machines - don't even think about it, hit yourself with a plate if you must. For arms choose a single biceps and triceps exercise and perform them at the end once per week for 3 sets of whatever - your arms will take a beating from all the pulling and pressing anyway. If you want to chin on Wednesday or do a few sets of pulldowns/ups that's fine (avoid the machines if you can use bodyweight). Core work is always fine. Cardio is fine - interval training is the best for this I'll just throw out. If this is just too much mental strain, take solace in the fact that it's just a few weeks, you'll gain a ton of muscle and strength and then you can spend the next 4 weeks adding the minute detail to refine the gained mass (like most care anyway - I have yet to meet a guy on this board who will trade 20lbs of muscle for a bit of added detail somewhere). In a nutshell, put your trust in some of the better coaches on the planet and enjoy the results.
New or Beginner Lifters:
This is not a beginner program. You will make faster progress with less workload on a true beginner program. I really recommend Rippetoe's Starting Strength for beginners or novices. It's so critical to learn the lifts correctly and get started on a good program (i.e. not what one typically finds on bodybuilding sites). Rippetoe is the man at coaching beginners and putting muscle on them with 30-40lbs in 4-6 months being quite normal. The book will handle teaching you all the lifts. It's written for coaches and no, given what I see in commercial gyms, the internet and Joe Schmoe at your local gym are not capable of instructing you properly - they will screw you up and make you look like a moron or possibly get you hurt. On top of that the book covers everything to get you set up on a program that is time proven as one of if not the best beginner programs available.
Advanced Lifters:
After a while, linear progress doesn't work so well. You want to do this for as long as you can. And I mean, resetting and running at your records, changing some exercises, rep ranges, whatever, just keep trying to get some linear progress as you want to milk this kind of progression for all it's worth. After a while it will become pretty obvious this doesn't work for you any more. Welcome to periodization.
Bill Starr 5x5
Linear Version for Intermediate Lifters
Linear Version for Intermediate Lifters
Note: I have a more complete and better formatted description along with a template download and a ton of other information in this link: http://www.geocities.com/elitemadcow1/5x5_Program/Linear_5x5.htm. This will be the final update to this post, anything new will go in the Geocities site.
-------------------------------------------------------------
INTRODUCTION:
Relatively easy program to understand. It nicely illustrates the importance of making systematic progression to drive gains and increase the core lifts.
HISTORY:
One of the many flavors of Bill Starr's 5x5 workouts. This particular one is designed with the intermediate lifter in mind and is from the Deep Squatter site. Deep Squatter (www.deepsquatter.com) is a great site so make sure you check it out along with all the great info located in the archives. Someone who has experience with the lifts and some decent training history should do quite well. It's important to keep in mind that this program is a snapshot, training changes with time, you don't do it forever, to get a better idea on how training changes over time I'd encourage people to read this interview from Glenn Pendlay and Mark Rippetoe on programming http://www.readthecore.com/200510/markr.htm.
USAGE:
This program is based on weekly linear progress. You take your current 5 rep maxes (5RM) and work up to them systematically by increasing weights in steady increments over 3-4 weeks. You then hit your current 5RM on lifts and continue these incremental increases week to week which pushes you further and further out making new personal records (PRs) every week until you stall on the majority of your lifts. If you miss reps, keep the weight constant the next week and don't move it up until you get all 5x5. When you eventually stall on the majority of lifts, and you will, meaning something like several weeks of no progress in that you can't add reps or weight, you'll have to reset lower back several weeks and begin again. If it's just one lift that has you stuck, reset on that and work up again but don't restart the whole program. When restarting the whole program, a lot of times changing variables is also helpful here. I'm not going to cover that. Training is a blend of art and science, and knowing what parameters to change for a given lifter is more art. This is a cookie-cutter, it's meant to get you big and strong, and more importantly training correctly. The best programs are always tailored to a given trainee so being your own coach, you have to learn and seek out knowledge (generally not in bodybuilding sources as a rule and this will seldom do you wrong).
Rep speed is natural, time between sets is what you need. Don't rapid fire compound lifts but don't be lazy. 2-5 minutes is probably right with 5 minutes being needed after a very taxing effort.
If you've just randomly come to this topic or been provided a link - there is a large amount of information here: Table of Contents
-------------------------------------------------------------
CORE DESCRIPTION:
Before beginning it is useful to know your 1 rep maxes or more ideally your real 5 rep max in each lift (there is a table and calculator in the TOC). If you don't know this - it might be useful to test your lifts first or start light and allow for some flexibility in the weekly planning. The whole key is the weekly progression and keeping workload low enough to not overwhelm someone with fatigue and enable them to get out in front and set records for as many weeks as possible. Said a different way, the stimulus is not getting under the bar once with heavy weight but getting under it frequently and systematically increasing week to week starting within your limits and slowly expanding.
Exercise Sets x Reps
Details
Monday
Squat 5x5
Ramping weight to top set of 5 (which should equal the previous Friday's heavy triple)
Bench 5x5
Ramping weight to top set of 5 (which should equal the previous Friday's heavy triple)
Barbell Row 5x5
Ramping weight to top set of 5 (which should equal the previous Friday's heavy triple)
Assistance: 2 sets of weighted hypers and 4 sets of weighted sit-ups
Wednesday
Squat 4x5
First 3 sets are the same as Monday, the 4th set is repeating the 3rd set again
Incline or Military 4x5
Ramping weight to top set of 5
Deadlift 4x5
Ramping weight to top set of 5
Assistance: 3 sets of sit-ups
Friday
Squat 4x5, 1x3, 1x8
First 4 sets are the same as Monday's, the triple is 2.5% above your Monday top set of 5, use the weight from the 3rd set for a final set of 8
Bench 4x5, 1x3, 1x8
First 4 sets are the same as Monday's, the triple is 2.5% above your Monday top set of 5, use the weight from the 3rd set for a final set of 8
Barbell Row 4x5, 1x3, 1x8
First 4 sets are the same as Monday's, the triple is 2.5% above your Monday top set of 5, use the weight from the 3rd set for a final set of 8
Assistance: 3 sets of weighted dips (5-8 reps), 3 sets of barbell curls and 3 sets of triceps extensions (8 reps)
The Progression:
So it's pretty obvious what's going on in this example is weekly increases of 2.5% of your top set of 5 on Monday. So you do 100lbs for 5 on your top set on Monday. Then on Friday you do a triple with 2.5% more, or 102.5. The next Monday you come back and do 102.5 for your heavy set of 5, that Friday the triple is 105 and so on. For the non-squat Wednesday lifts you just increase by the percentage week to week.
Of course you start with a good margin to give yourself a run so you have to back into the initial weeks' weights. That means using some math. Put your current 5 rep maxes at week 4, figure out what 2.5% of the number is and go back and put that for week 3, do that back until you get to week 1. The Friday triple is always the next week's Monday set of 5. Pretty easy.*
Ramping Weights:
This is basically increasing your weight set to set like warming up. If your top set of 5 is 315, you might go 135, 185, 225, 275, and then 315 all for 5 reps. There are several reasons for this, you are warming up, getting a lot of practice and really groove the coordination of the lifts, and contributing to workload without raising it so high that fatigue overcomes you and you overtrain. If you do 315 for all 5 sets, workload is a lot higher and doing that a couple of times a week ensures that you won't last long on this program.
Typically jumps can be somewhere between 10-15% per set based on your top set (or 12.5% and round up or down). An easy way to figure this is to find out what 10% and 15% are for your top set and then track backwards into the other sets using the variance to round or help it make sense.
Example:
Your top set is 100lbs
10% is 10lbs and 15% is 15lbs
Your 5th set is 100x5, 4th is 90x5, 3rd is 80x5, 2nd is 70x5, and 1st is 60x5
These are the minimum jumps of 10%, the math doesn't always look this neat but using 12.5% isn't as intuitively easy to see for explaining this.
Make sure this makes sense and you aren't so strong as to make the jumps ridiculous at 10-15%. But keep in mind, going 200, 205, 210, 215, and 220 is a lot closer to 220 for 5x5 and that's too much on this kind of frequency, it will fatigue you a lot faster (i.e. prevent you from progressing) and hurt your ability to get as much as possible with your top set.
*Note: for the math inclined you probably realized that when moving up in weight you are taking 2.5% of the current weight but when I have you set up the initial weeks moving backward you are taking 2.5% off the forward week which is a slightly larger number than moving in the other direction. So if you want to really be exact, you can work it out the other way but the math is harder.
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OTHER PERTINENT INFORMATION
The Lifts:
Squats - these should be full range Olympic style squats. Use the full range of your body - that means as low as you can go which for almost everyone is past parallel. If the top of your thighs aren't at least parallel it's for shit. If you think this is bad for your knees going low, you and whoever told you that are relying on an old wives tale. Anyone who knows the human body will tell you that below parallel is MUCH safer on the knees whereas parallel and above put all the sheer right on them and doesn’t allow proper transfer of the load to the rest of your body (this is how your body was designed). Read the Squat article from Arioch linked in the TOC for a complete description and references on the mechanics of the squat and depth.
Deads - each rep is deweighted fully on the floor. No touch and go. This is called the 'dead'lift because the weight is 'dead' on the ground. You can touch and go warm ups but that's it.
Military - standing overhead presses. Supporting weight overhead is a fundamental exercise and stimulates the whole body. Push presses are a fine substitute.
Rows - 90 degrees and done dynamically (Accelerate the weight into your body - do not jerk it but constantly increase the pace like an oar through water). There is a TOC topic on rows, a good read that also illustrates a version done from the floor.
Common Sense - you should know how to do the lifts before starting a program like this. Start light and learn. Don't include brand new compound lifts that have you training near your limit without some time in. This is how you get hurt. Compound lifts load the entire body and are very effective. If you have a weak link, they will bring it up - of course if you haven't trained the lift long enough for this to happen your weak link may get you hurt. Use your brain.
The rest is self explanatory.
Time Between Sets:
Don't over think this. Use a natural rep speed, take what you need between sets. Don't be lazy but don't rush. You can't be doing rapid fire sets of big compound lifts. Maybe on the lightest warm-ups you take a minute but most sets will be 2-5 minute range with 2 being between fairly easy sets and 5 being after a heavy set in preparation for another very serious major effort that drains you. I can see exceeding the 5 minute limit by a tad when really pushing near failure in the PR weeks when you are uncertain of getting your reps on your last set. Just use your brain and don't micromanage.
Diet:
Depends on whether you are trying to gain muscle or what. I will say that for gaining muscle, caloric excess must be present. Read the caloric excess topic in the table of contents. More people, particularly bodybuilders, go wrong here. If caloric excess is present and training stinks, you will get fatter. The few guys who have come back with no weight gain got very strong and gained no net weight - guess what - they were already fairly lean (i.e. no excess in their diet otherwise they'd have been fatter) and they didn't gain fat or muscle (no caloric excess during training). There's nothing any program can do if you won't eat. For the purposes of gaining muscle or getting big and strong it's better to eat McDonalds and KFC all day long than not eat enough Zen clean ultra pure food which might be healthier but if not enough there's simply nothing to use to grow. So caloric excess is a requirement, you don't need to eat like a slob but it will work infinitely better than not eating enough healthy food for this purpose. Lots of people have gotten big and strong on diets that were bad, if you choose to eat squeaky clean, kudos to you but it is not critical to putting on muscle (it might be critical to a long high quality life though).
Incorporating the Olympic Lifts:
The above is basically setup for someone who doesn't know the OLs. Starr's original workout included Power Cleans and High Pulls. Instead of Bent Rows substitute Power Cleans. Rather than Deads substitute High Pulls. That’s a quick and dirty way of handling this without much disruption.
Substituting Exercises:
Don't fuck with this. Every bodybuilder seems to have Attention Deficit Disorder and an overwhelming desire to customize everything. The bottom line is that these are all the most effective exercises and just about anything one does will result in less gains. As a rule those people who want to change it don't know enough to make proper alterations - those who do know enough, don't have much to change. The guy who is responsible for this program is of the best on the planet at bulking lifters and making people stronger. It's kind of like Sesame Street's Elmo offering neurosurgery advice at NYU. Anyway, it's absolutely essential not to screw with the squats, they are the foundation of this program. If you want to sub inclines or push presses for military that's okay. Do not sub machines - don't even think about it, hit yourself with a plate if you must. For arms choose a single biceps and triceps exercise and perform them at the end once per week for 3 sets of whatever - your arms will take a beating from all the pulling and pressing anyway. If you want to chin on Wednesday or do a few sets of pulldowns/ups that's fine (avoid the machines if you can use bodyweight). Core work is always fine. Cardio is fine - interval training is the best for this I'll just throw out. If this is just too much mental strain, take solace in the fact that it's just a few weeks, you'll gain a ton of muscle and strength and then you can spend the next 4 weeks adding the minute detail to refine the gained mass (like most care anyway - I have yet to meet a guy on this board who will trade 20lbs of muscle for a bit of added detail somewhere). In a nutshell, put your trust in some of the better coaches on the planet and enjoy the results.
New or Beginner Lifters:
This is not a beginner program. You will make faster progress with less workload on a true beginner program. I really recommend Rippetoe's Starting Strength for beginners or novices. It's so critical to learn the lifts correctly and get started on a good program (i.e. not what one typically finds on bodybuilding sites). Rippetoe is the man at coaching beginners and putting muscle on them with 30-40lbs in 4-6 months being quite normal. The book will handle teaching you all the lifts. It's written for coaches and no, given what I see in commercial gyms, the internet and Joe Schmoe at your local gym are not capable of instructing you properly - they will screw you up and make you look like a moron or possibly get you hurt. On top of that the book covers everything to get you set up on a program that is time proven as one of if not the best beginner programs available.
Advanced Lifters:
After a while, linear progress doesn't work so well. You want to do this for as long as you can. And I mean, resetting and running at your records, changing some exercises, rep ranges, whatever, just keep trying to get some linear progress as you want to milk this kind of progression for all it's worth. After a while it will become pretty obvious this doesn't work for you any more. Welcome to periodization.
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Guinness5.0
New member
The most effective way to get people NOT to read a thread is to sticky itkethnaab said:
Island Son
New member
I've done a few rounds of the advanced version but when this round is done (wk 4 now) I'll do the intermediate version & see how long it lasts.
a couple of questions on it; what's the reasoning behind using incline press instead of military press and removing pullups from the exercise list? Was it done to reduce how fast fatigue accrues, or is there some other reason?
a couple of questions on it; what's the reasoning behind using incline press instead of military press and removing pullups from the exercise list? Was it done to reduce how fast fatigue accrues, or is there some other reason?
No reasoning, that's how it was written out and I tend not to alter other's material unless required (i.e. I did sub out the olympic lifts as most people don't know them).Island Son said:
Pullups can be done on Wed - just drop the Friday dips and it will even out. Incline and military/pushpress are substitutable if desired. Just choose one and get good at it.
Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n
Ok. Just want to make sure I have my math correct and understand correctly.
If for instance my max squat is 225. Then 225 needs to be my fith set. So I take 10-15% off of this for the 4th set, and so on.
So if I choose to do it at 15% it would look something like:
1st set: 115
2nd set: 135
3rd set: 160
4th set: 190
5th set: 225
*I rounded these off to get at a even weight, but only .5-1lb.
If this is right, then I'm good to go and can figure out the numbers on the rest of the excersizes.
Thanks.
Ok. Just want to make sure I have my math correct and understand correctly.
If for instance my max squat is 225. Then 225 needs to be my fith set. So I take 10-15% off of this for the 4th set, and so on.
So if I choose to do it at 15% it would look something like:
1st set: 115
2nd set: 135
3rd set: 160
4th set: 190
5th set: 225
*I rounded these off to get at a even weight, but only .5-1lb.
If this is right, then I'm good to go and can figure out the numbers on the rest of the excersizes.
Thanks.
That's the math and it's applied correctly. Just make sure it makes sense for you. On a lift where you are handling more weight like a squat or pull or even bench it might make sense to go a bit narrower than 15% to make the jumps smooth (i.e. 30-50lbs jumps can be unrealistic at times and work against you). With something like an overhead press maybe the larger jumps are more appropriate to make the numbers work and give you better spread. Probably not very clear but in short - use your head and think if something makes sense and is workable.
Czar87
New member
I just fnished 3rd week, things are going well tough
it seems that i damaged my right knee somehow last week, it doesnt hurt when i squat or when i walk but i just feel it being there ... i feel little discomfort like the knee being week but it doesnt put me to limb
Also i squat with mr. smith wich i hate, but what can you do ... anyway what are your suggestions what should i do, i dont wanna quit
it seems that i damaged my right knee somehow last week, it doesnt hurt when i squat or when i walk but i just feel it being there ... i feel little discomfort like the knee being week but it doesnt put me to limb
Also i squat with mr. smith wich i hate, but what can you do ... anyway what are your suggestions what should i do, i dont wanna quit
First - the smith is never good and it can put the body in an especially bad/unnatural position impacting the knees. I'd almost suggest purchasing squat stands for your gym and leaving them there as a contribution. Actually, I'd probably go that route and try to sell them on the idea. Here is an example of what I'm talking about: http://www.prosportuk.com/detail/2/146/320 although you can go nicer or 1 piece or whatever.
Second - I'm not sure whether you hurt your knee training or unrelated but regardless, you need to back it down for now and take care of yourself. Lifting personal bests on a possibly shaky knee can result in injury either to the knee itself or to other parts as you subconsciously overcompensate to work around the knee. This is not a competition situation where you dig deep and put it on the line. This is recreational training. The main issue is that this whole program is basically focused around the squat but if you want to stick with it, you'll have to change that and be safe. So forget setting 5RM PRs (I'm guessing you are using the linear version? or non periodized). Cut the squat frequency, intensity and volume down until you know you are okay. Maybe spend some time doing lighter 10-15 rep sets not to failure and no more than 1-2 sets 2x a week at the most. In place of that maybe incorporate some type of pulling like RDL if it's comfortable (with less squatting you'll be able to make room for more work, I just don't want it bothering the knee and I'm guessing a fixed knee and just pulling will work around it and still provide some benefit).
It's basically a judgement call on what you can do, how fast you think you'll heal, and what your best course of action is. Unfortunately that's all on you but your body is for life and there is no exchange policy. Generally most people here are lifting for nothing more than personal fullfillment so don't risk serious injury or damage in the short-term just because you are enjoying your training. Rational, logical, long term mindset. You have plenty of time to heal up and push hard for years to come. Blow out a knee and you will seriously regret the impatience. Just give it time and care.
Second - I'm not sure whether you hurt your knee training or unrelated but regardless, you need to back it down for now and take care of yourself. Lifting personal bests on a possibly shaky knee can result in injury either to the knee itself or to other parts as you subconsciously overcompensate to work around the knee. This is not a competition situation where you dig deep and put it on the line. This is recreational training. The main issue is that this whole program is basically focused around the squat but if you want to stick with it, you'll have to change that and be safe. So forget setting 5RM PRs (I'm guessing you are using the linear version? or non periodized). Cut the squat frequency, intensity and volume down until you know you are okay. Maybe spend some time doing lighter 10-15 rep sets not to failure and no more than 1-2 sets 2x a week at the most. In place of that maybe incorporate some type of pulling like RDL if it's comfortable (with less squatting you'll be able to make room for more work, I just don't want it bothering the knee and I'm guessing a fixed knee and just pulling will work around it and still provide some benefit).
It's basically a judgement call on what you can do, how fast you think you'll heal, and what your best course of action is. Unfortunately that's all on you but your body is for life and there is no exchange policy. Generally most people here are lifting for nothing more than personal fullfillment so don't risk serious injury or damage in the short-term just because you are enjoying your training. Rational, logical, long term mindset. You have plenty of time to heal up and push hard for years to come. Blow out a knee and you will seriously regret the impatience. Just give it time and care.
Czar87
New member
call me stupid but i will finish the next and the final week of volume
i dont wanna quit, atleast i go through volume phase and see whats the situation after that, if going worse ill quit ... injury came from squatting, i dont know, maybe i went straight with my knees or they collapsed inside or i bounced
but maybe i should do leg press or what you think ?
ouh and i do dual factor =) if i think about it now maybe i jumped in too fast. because i wasnt familiar with lifts and bad form is present sometimes, tough i hope i go through it without injury, weights arent high too
anyway i dont regret anything, i have to say past 3 weeks have been best of my last few years in personal life and etc. ... slight smirk in my face all time and i even cleaned my room
Thank MC2
i dont wanna quit, atleast i go through volume phase and see whats the situation after that, if going worse ill quit ... injury came from squatting, i dont know, maybe i went straight with my knees or they collapsed inside or i bounced
but maybe i should do leg press or what you think ?
ouh and i do dual factor =) if i think about it now maybe i jumped in too fast. because i wasnt familiar with lifts and bad form is present sometimes, tough i hope i go through it without injury, weights arent high too
anyway i dont regret anything, i have to say past 3 weeks have been best of my last few years in personal life and etc. ... slight smirk in my face all time and i even cleaned my room
Thank MC2
blut wump
New member
I'd suggest you take the 2x per week deload option. It's ideal for nursing a fatigued frame. Take care, though, that your next week isn't your final week of squatting for several months. I've aborted a run of the dual factor due to hurting my knee over the weekend at the end of week three. I know exactly what you mean, though, about the pleasure of the 5x5.
Life is long and holds many more opportunities to run the program.
Life is long and holds many more opportunities to run the program.
Protobuilder
New member
i think it means you don't include in your tonnage/workload calculation anything under 60% of your 1RM (i.e., easy warm up sets). Basically, you can track your tonnage as a way of monitoring the overall workload and, from there, add or subtract as needed to allow for restoration phases, loading phases, etc. A lot of people only track the load once it reaches a certain level of intensity--here, it's 60%--or they monitor the number of lifts performed at various intensities (i.e., 5 sets at 65%, 3 sets at 85%, etc.). These are just ways of tracking workload. Another useful tool is adding in a subjective component and noting for each exercise the "perceived effort" using a scale of 1-5 or 1-10. So, you'd have the quantitative measure (e.g., tonnage calculation), and a subjective analysis of how "tough" the exercise felt that day. Just diff't ways of monitoring the organism to see how it's reacting to stress (exercise). Smart people can use that info. to make logical adjustments.
I could be wrong though.
I could be wrong though.
It's right, just a tool. You have to have a cutoff somewhere based on intensity - i.e. think about walking, it can be done for huge volume every day because it is very low intensity. You don't add up the poundage moved with every step and throw it in there. Just not as much wear and tear once you get out of the top end and for strength/size not too much benefit in spending a lot of time down there either.
blut wump
New member
Once you cut the workload, for example by dropping squat in favour of leg press then it's over since you'll stop loading. In your position, which I've been in, unable to squat, just accept that the program has ended and go heal.Czar87 said:
Regarding terminology, a deload is the period when you allow your fatigue to dissipate from a period of loading resulting in over-reaching. It only takes a week or so and then you start to feel fresh again. It's not to be confused with the Intensity phase which is an option on the second part of the program where you push for strong triples.
If you take a full week off then you'll lose some conditioning and would be better served by starting again at week one. You might want to ease yourself back into things by running the Single Factor version for a couple of months.
Czar87
New member
Arghh god damnit, got it what i was looking for ... went to train today and now seems that i hurt the same knee from other place
That freakin smith is machine from hell i tell ya ... anyway i figured out that i have a another gym in my city, not so fancy but atleast that have a squat rack
I'll gonna do dfht upper body workout now until i can get back to 5x5 ... should i leave lower body out or aplly some things, what you think what should i do for lower body ?
Tough i have another question for pull ups. I can only to close grip pull-dows for now because i lack strenght for wide grip pull ups... are close grip as good as wide grip or should i do pull down instead ?
For 5x5 ... the 4 weeks i did were cool, i packed some muscle and cant wait to get back in
That freakin smith is machine from hell i tell ya ... anyway i figured out that i have a another gym in my city, not so fancy but atleast that have a squat rack
I'll gonna do dfht upper body workout now until i can get back to 5x5 ... should i leave lower body out or aplly some things, what you think what should i do for lower body ?
Tough i have another question for pull ups. I can only to close grip pull-dows for now because i lack strenght for wide grip pull ups... are close grip as good as wide grip or should i do pull down instead ?
For 5x5 ... the 4 weeks i did were cool, i packed some muscle and cant wait to get back in
Sucks about the knee. Some people have no issues with the Smith (although it is far less effective) but for others it can be a body wrecker. Heal up and start very slow on the regular squat, full range of motion, go down below parallel to the limit of your flexability without compromising form. Build slow and with higher reps to save your knee and get your body in shape for the new movement as you heal up and come back.
Pullups are pullups. Anything bodyweight is better than a pulldown but even so - this is just not a big piece of the puzzle so if you want to do pulldowns (only because you lack the strength) that's fine.
Pullups are pullups. Anything bodyweight is better than a pulldown but even so - this is just not a big piece of the puzzle so if you want to do pulldowns (only because you lack the strength) that's fine.
blut wump
New member
There's a standard rule with horses: feed them for the work they've done not the work they're going to do. I think it applies to weightlifters too.DZLS said:starting my 5x5 tomorrow...
stoked...!!!
i'm feeling fat though from all this food...
Troy: front squats are a standard sub. Personally, I find it to place extra stress on my lower back right before the deadlifts kill it.
Czar87
New member
I went to a doctor yesterday and it seems that i have overtrain syndrom with my ligaments.
My elbows, knees and shoulders are all weaks and lil bit painful and this with only 3 weeks of volume.
I did dual factor, i have now 3 weeks off and then low volume again... but how and with wath i should start my next cycle so i wont overtrain them again ?
My elbows, knees and shoulders are all weaks and lil bit painful and this with only 3 weeks of volume.
I did dual factor, i have now 3 weeks off and then low volume again... but how and with wath i should start my next cycle so i wont overtrain them again ?
Czar87
New member
I have a week to go when i cant touch the barbell, but i wanna start 5x5 again as soon as i can.
What should i do so i dont run to this error anymore ( last time i overtrained m ligaments, all of them). Last time i did advanced version, so i go linear version this time =) but how do i avoid injury this time or should i do some other program
i have only trained for 6 months
=)
In linear version everything is the same as the advance version except the reps ? 4 veeks of load/volume, 1 deloead and 4 intensity phase right ?
What should i do so i dont run to this error anymore ( last time i overtrained m ligaments, all of them). Last time i did advanced version, so i go linear version this time =) but how do i avoid injury this time or should i do some other program
i have only trained for 6 months
=)
In linear version everything is the same as the advance version except the reps ? 4 veeks of load/volume, 1 deloead and 4 intensity phase right ?
Wow - yeah, overuse injuries are pretty bad. This program can be particularly bad for people in that they are not used to this type of frequency or workload in the core lifts, they are not used to the core lifts, and compound both of those with the fact that this program gets people stronger fairly quickly and lets them use loads that make it worse.
I still have to alter the advanced program description. Probably will do that sooner rather than later.
My advice would be to go here: http://www.geocities.com/elitemadcow1/5x5_Program/Linear_5x5.htm, read the description very carefully, and download the excel template. Do not begin the program right away but spend some time getting back in the gym and doing the lifts. Build up slowly to give the body a chance to get accustomed to everything. When you are good on the lifts and have some training under your belt to where you are confident that you can handle reasonable volume again, go ahead and start it.
I still have to alter the advanced program description. Probably will do that sooner rather than later.
My advice would be to go here: http://www.geocities.com/elitemadcow1/5x5_Program/Linear_5x5.htm, read the description very carefully, and download the excel template. Do not begin the program right away but spend some time getting back in the gym and doing the lifts. Build up slowly to give the body a chance to get accustomed to everything. When you are good on the lifts and have some training under your belt to where you are confident that you can handle reasonable volume again, go ahead and start it.
Question for Madcow
Hey Madcow,
I sent you a PM recently regarding training and specifically the Starr 5x5 routine. In it I included a preparation workout I would like to do before I start the 5x5 in the summer. I realize you must be very busy, but I am just wondering if you received the message. I appreciate the time you put into answering everyone's questions not only in this thread, but also in many others. Keep up the good work!
Hey Madcow,
I sent you a PM recently regarding training and specifically the Starr 5x5 routine. In it I included a preparation workout I would like to do before I start the 5x5 in the summer. I realize you must be very busy, but I am just wondering if you received the message. I appreciate the time you put into answering everyone's questions not only in this thread, but also in many others. Keep up the good work!
anotherbutters
New member
Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n
There are plenty of other people willing to help on here. What was the prep work you were thinking of?
There are plenty of other people willing to help on here. What was the prep work you were thinking of?
Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n
anotherbutters,
First and foremost, I apologize. I didn't mean what I said as if I was not seeking advice from others such as yourself. The reason I had asked Madcow first was because I had been referred to his site on geocities.com with the Linear and Dual Factor versions of the Starr 5x5, so it he seemed like the right person to as k. The prep work I'm looking to do is for a period of about five weeks. My main goals during this period of time are: 1) Practice the deadlift (I just did it today for the first time) 2) Perform exercises to strengthen the posterior chain 3) Improve the bench press by adding some variety to my benching workouts. I have been fortunate enough to have been coached well in the squat and so that part of the 5x5 does not worry me other than the fact that there is such a high volume of squats (I hope I'm prepared for that!). Well, enough said, here is the proposed workout. I am not totally sure about the rep schemes for all the exercises as I have mentioned below:
Monday:
1) Bench Press (6 sets x 3 reps) building up to a max triple, or at least a strong triple - I have never tried this method of low reps and high sets, usually I have strictly followed the very linear method of 10-8-6-4-2, and variations of that.
2) Squats (I am on a 12 week program that I still have 6 weeks to go on, so I will be focusing on finishing that up. The workout is very linear and thus far very effective. I am projected to make a 30 pound increase in my max over the 12 weeks).
3) Incline DB Press (2 sets of 10 ?) - Not sure about the reps, but I just want to hit the chest in a different way considering I was doing decline stuff during my current cycle. Also to improve stabilizing muscle strength.
4) Glute Ham Raises (4 x 8) - We do not have the professional bench for these at our school's gym, but I have done these with a partner laying on a desk with my hips over the edge and the partner holding my ankles down and it is pretty effective)
5) Weighted pull-ups (3 x 8) - Upper back/ lat work.
6) Low squat jumps to lunge (3 sets of 45 seconds, lunging every 3-5 seconds) - work on explosiveness, a little conditioning at the end of the workout, and get the hip flexors going.
Wednesday
1) Deadlift (8-6-3-3-1-1) - Not sure about the rep scheme. I want to be able to lift heavy, but I also want to get in some much needed practice before the 5x5.
2) Rack lockouts - I want to work in some variety to my benching routines to try and strengthen different parts of the lift, as wells as my tri's. Lately I've been stuck at the 225 rut, and sometimes I can't even get that. It's REAL frustrating considering I just did it on decline 2 days ago and I still had room to increase the weight.
3) Pull throughs (3 x 10) - Work on that posterior chain, and exploding for the deadlift.
4) Barbell Rows (8-6-4-2) - I want to use the "2nd method" outlined underneath your generic 90 degree method. I think they were called Pendlay (sp?) rows. I intend to stop the weight on the floor for each rep as recommended.
5) Chin-ups - Work on some "functional" strength, and help build up the grip hopefully
6) Reverse barbell lunges with one leg elevated (2-3 sets of 10) -OR- front squats to help me with my Cleans
Friday:
1) Hang Cleans (3 sets of 5 reps) - don't want to lose the cleaning form, or the explosiveness of the exercise. MAYBE I could do front squats for 3 sets right after.
2) Good Mornings (8-6-6-4) - I haven’t done these with a barbell before, but once again I've heard they’re great for the posterior chain and helping the squat and deadlift.
3) Floor press (8-6-6) - Help improve the bench press
4) Hyperextensions (3 sets of 10) - I hope our gym has the bench for this, otherwise I suppose I could do it off a bench with someone sitting on my legs or something.
5) Lat pulldowns (3 x 8) - hit the lats one more time besides the pull-ups on Monday
6) Russian Lunges (1 minute on each side jumping every 5 seconds)
Sorry for the long post, but I really am very keen on preparation and I want to make sure I am ready to go with the 5x5 when summer comes around. Thanks in advance for your suggestions!
anotherbutters,
First and foremost, I apologize. I didn't mean what I said as if I was not seeking advice from others such as yourself. The reason I had asked Madcow first was because I had been referred to his site on geocities.com with the Linear and Dual Factor versions of the Starr 5x5, so it he seemed like the right person to as k. The prep work I'm looking to do is for a period of about five weeks. My main goals during this period of time are: 1) Practice the deadlift (I just did it today for the first time) 2) Perform exercises to strengthen the posterior chain 3) Improve the bench press by adding some variety to my benching workouts. I have been fortunate enough to have been coached well in the squat and so that part of the 5x5 does not worry me other than the fact that there is such a high volume of squats (I hope I'm prepared for that!). Well, enough said, here is the proposed workout. I am not totally sure about the rep schemes for all the exercises as I have mentioned below:
Monday:
1) Bench Press (6 sets x 3 reps) building up to a max triple, or at least a strong triple - I have never tried this method of low reps and high sets, usually I have strictly followed the very linear method of 10-8-6-4-2, and variations of that.
2) Squats (I am on a 12 week program that I still have 6 weeks to go on, so I will be focusing on finishing that up. The workout is very linear and thus far very effective. I am projected to make a 30 pound increase in my max over the 12 weeks).
3) Incline DB Press (2 sets of 10 ?) - Not sure about the reps, but I just want to hit the chest in a different way considering I was doing decline stuff during my current cycle. Also to improve stabilizing muscle strength.
4) Glute Ham Raises (4 x 8) - We do not have the professional bench for these at our school's gym, but I have done these with a partner laying on a desk with my hips over the edge and the partner holding my ankles down and it is pretty effective)
5) Weighted pull-ups (3 x 8) - Upper back/ lat work.
6) Low squat jumps to lunge (3 sets of 45 seconds, lunging every 3-5 seconds) - work on explosiveness, a little conditioning at the end of the workout, and get the hip flexors going.
Wednesday
1) Deadlift (8-6-3-3-1-1) - Not sure about the rep scheme. I want to be able to lift heavy, but I also want to get in some much needed practice before the 5x5.
2) Rack lockouts - I want to work in some variety to my benching routines to try and strengthen different parts of the lift, as wells as my tri's. Lately I've been stuck at the 225 rut, and sometimes I can't even get that. It's REAL frustrating considering I just did it on decline 2 days ago and I still had room to increase the weight.
3) Pull throughs (3 x 10) - Work on that posterior chain, and exploding for the deadlift.
4) Barbell Rows (8-6-4-2) - I want to use the "2nd method" outlined underneath your generic 90 degree method. I think they were called Pendlay (sp?) rows. I intend to stop the weight on the floor for each rep as recommended.
5) Chin-ups - Work on some "functional" strength, and help build up the grip hopefully
6) Reverse barbell lunges with one leg elevated (2-3 sets of 10) -OR- front squats to help me with my Cleans
Friday:
1) Hang Cleans (3 sets of 5 reps) - don't want to lose the cleaning form, or the explosiveness of the exercise. MAYBE I could do front squats for 3 sets right after.
2) Good Mornings (8-6-6-4) - I haven’t done these with a barbell before, but once again I've heard they’re great for the posterior chain and helping the squat and deadlift.
3) Floor press (8-6-6) - Help improve the bench press
4) Hyperextensions (3 sets of 10) - I hope our gym has the bench for this, otherwise I suppose I could do it off a bench with someone sitting on my legs or something.
5) Lat pulldowns (3 x 8) - hit the lats one more time besides the pull-ups on Monday
6) Russian Lunges (1 minute on each side jumping every 5 seconds)
Sorry for the long post, but I really am very keen on preparation and I want to make sure I am ready to go with the 5x5 when summer comes around. Thanks in advance for your suggestions!
Guinness5.0
New member
I don't think that you need all that stuff. IMO you'd be better served by keeping it simpler. At the stage your at, if you want to improve your squat and deadlift, just squat and deadlift .
I think the program you listed looks pretty damn good, but not for where you're at. It's nice to see that you're not taking the BB mag approach to training, but again I think what you listed may very well bury you again. SOmething like teh Rippetoe routine woul be more appropriate, or just take it easy for a bit, then hop on SF 5x5 and start conservatively.
My .02
.I think the program you listed looks pretty damn good, but not for where you're at. It's nice to see that you're not taking the BB mag approach to training, but again I think what you listed may very well bury you again. SOmething like teh Rippetoe routine woul be more appropriate, or just take it easy for a bit, then hop on SF 5x5 and start conservatively.
My .02
Last edited:
TheAssholeFomerlyKnownAsDBBT
New member
.....
Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n
Thanks for the advice Guiness. I realize my training may be novice in comparison to other members on this forum, but I have been working on linear periodization for the past 1 1/2 years. My concerns with the SF 5x5 are simply that I want to be prepared for the workload of hitting these compound lifts 2-3 times per week whereas my workouts in the past have usually had each compound lift once per week, as well as additional work throughout the week. For example, I would squat 6-8 sets on Monday, do cleans and lunges on Wednesday, and front squats on Friday in addition to other work. Regardless, I have been maxing out at the end of 7 week cycles for these past 1.5 years and I have gotten to a point where the increased weight does not come as easily as it once did although I still gain about 10 lbs. per lift every 2 months. Squats I gain more because I have corrected my technique and am now really starting to reap the benefits. Perhaps I should have listed my stats, etc earlier.
Age: 19
Height: 5'9"
Weight: 170-175 lbs.
Maxes (1x):
Flat Bench: 225 lbs.
Decline Bench: 225 lbs.
Incline Bench: 215 lbs.(@ the end of last summer, then I started doing declines)
Cleans: 210 lbs.
Squats: soon to be 325 lbs.
Deadlift: Today was the first day but based off that I would project somehwere in the 300's once I get the form down. I was doing sets of 225 today.
These are all the documented maxes I've got. I don't know why my bench presses are so close together. I would have thought the flat should be the greatest, but it just hasn't been that way, and that's why I'm looking to improve it. Thanks a lot for the advice Guiness, and I'd appreciate any other input you have.
Thanks for the advice Guiness. I realize my training may be novice in comparison to other members on this forum, but I have been working on linear periodization for the past 1 1/2 years. My concerns with the SF 5x5 are simply that I want to be prepared for the workload of hitting these compound lifts 2-3 times per week whereas my workouts in the past have usually had each compound lift once per week, as well as additional work throughout the week. For example, I would squat 6-8 sets on Monday, do cleans and lunges on Wednesday, and front squats on Friday in addition to other work. Regardless, I have been maxing out at the end of 7 week cycles for these past 1.5 years and I have gotten to a point where the increased weight does not come as easily as it once did although I still gain about 10 lbs. per lift every 2 months. Squats I gain more because I have corrected my technique and am now really starting to reap the benefits. Perhaps I should have listed my stats, etc earlier.
Age: 19
Height: 5'9"
Weight: 170-175 lbs.
Maxes (1x):
Flat Bench: 225 lbs.
Decline Bench: 225 lbs.
Incline Bench: 215 lbs.(@ the end of last summer, then I started doing declines)
Cleans: 210 lbs.
Squats: soon to be 325 lbs.
Deadlift: Today was the first day but based off that I would project somehwere in the 300's once I get the form down. I was doing sets of 225 today.
These are all the documented maxes I've got. I don't know why my bench presses are so close together. I would have thought the flat should be the greatest, but it just hasn't been that way, and that's why I'm looking to improve it. Thanks a lot for the advice Guiness, and I'd appreciate any other input you have.
Guinness5.0
New member
LOL - I got you confued with czar
My response was meant to be for him had he come up with that program for himself.
Listening and reading comprehension are definitely skills
Looks good to me.
My response was meant to be for him had he come up with that program for himself.
Listening and reading comprehension are definitely skills
Looks good to me.
anotherbutters
New member
Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n
No need to apologise. Posting a question here takes the load off madcow and other people might find the replies useful.
I'd say your routine looks damned good for a 19 yr old. Not a single barbell curl in sight! You might want to add more rowing to compliment the pressing. You've three types of bench press, but only one row. Being able to pull as much as you can push is good for shoulder health. You didn't list what you can row, so I assume you don't put much emphasis on it.
If you're new to deadlifting, I wouldn't do singles. Save them for later. Give your body time to learn the movement. Hone the groove. Trying to max out whilst you're still learning the movement is inviting injury.
I take it you've been training in a linear fashion and resetting every 7 weeks? Do you reset just because you've reached week 7, or do you usually stall in that week? Just curious - if you're still making progress, you ought to carry on.
No need to apologise. Posting a question here takes the load off madcow and other people might find the replies useful.
I'd say your routine looks damned good for a 19 yr old. Not a single barbell curl in sight! You might want to add more rowing to compliment the pressing. You've three types of bench press, but only one row. Being able to pull as much as you can push is good for shoulder health. You didn't list what you can row, so I assume you don't put much emphasis on it.
If you're new to deadlifting, I wouldn't do singles. Save them for later. Give your body time to learn the movement. Hone the groove. Trying to max out whilst you're still learning the movement is inviting injury.
I take it you've been training in a linear fashion and resetting every 7 weeks? Do you reset just because you've reached week 7, or do you usually stall in that week? Just curious - if you're still making progress, you ought to carry on.
Mojaz, if you are worried about conditioning before starting the SF program, my advice would be to start a bit lighter and reduce the volume some. i.e. spend 2-3 weeks doing 2-3 ramped sets of 5 in your workouts and start the weights 2-3 weeks back of the initial starting point. That way you can basically move right in, keep the weight progression in line and be in PRs after week 4 (which will be after week 6-7 for you (i.e. 4+2 or 3). It seems like you do a fair amount of volume anyway and a lot of the sets in the full 5x5 aren't very heavy (just warm ups) so I'm not sure it would be a huge concern. For most people it hasn't been, but it certainly has been an issue for a few (this is the linear/SF program I'm talking about).
Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n
Thanks for the advice Guiness an Madcow. With regards to Guiness' question, maybe I am mistaken and my past routines have not been quite as linear as i thought. From the threads I've read on this forum and in other places It now seems to me that my 7 week cycles are almost 7 weeks of deloading, I guess. For example, let's look at the bench press workout for a 7 week cycle. It would go something like this:
(For a max of 210)
Week 1
10x105
10x115
10x130
10x140
10x155
Week 2
10x105
8x115
8x130
8x140
8x155
8x165
Week 3
10x105
8x130
6x140
6x155
6x165
6x180
Week 4
10x105
8x140
6x155
4x165
4x180
4x190
Week 5
10x105
8x155
6x165
4x180
2x190
2x205
Week 6
10x105
8x160
6x170
4x185
2x200
1x210
Week 7
10x105
5x135
3x160
1x180
1x200
1x215-225
Therefore I'm not really sure what this would be classified under, but it's what I've been doing for quite a few cycles. Any ideas as to what this would be classified as?
I think that will be a great way to ease into the SF 5x5 Madcow. My only conern is that I feel I have a weak spot in some of the areas necessary for the deadlift, specifically the erectors, hams, and hips and that's why i proposed that workout. My bench press needs to improve as well. I've been stuck in that 220-225 rut for a while now and I'm not too happy about it.
Thanks for the advice Guiness an Madcow. With regards to Guiness' question, maybe I am mistaken and my past routines have not been quite as linear as i thought. From the threads I've read on this forum and in other places It now seems to me that my 7 week cycles are almost 7 weeks of deloading, I guess. For example, let's look at the bench press workout for a 7 week cycle. It would go something like this:
(For a max of 210)
Week 1
10x105
10x115
10x130
10x140
10x155
Week 2
10x105
8x115
8x130
8x140
8x155
8x165
Week 3
10x105
8x130
6x140
6x155
6x165
6x180
Week 4
10x105
8x140
6x155
4x165
4x180
4x190
Week 5
10x105
8x155
6x165
4x180
2x190
2x205
Week 6
10x105
8x160
6x170
4x185
2x200
1x210
Week 7
10x105
5x135
3x160
1x180
1x200
1x215-225
Therefore I'm not really sure what this would be classified under, but it's what I've been doing for quite a few cycles. Any ideas as to what this would be classified as?
I think that will be a great way to ease into the SF 5x5 Madcow. My only conern is that I feel I have a weak spot in some of the areas necessary for the deadlift, specifically the erectors, hams, and hips and that's why i proposed that workout. My bench press needs to improve as well. I've been stuck in that 220-225 rut for a while now and I'm not too happy about it.
Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n
Note: I have a more complete and better formatted description along with a template download and a ton of other information in this link: http://www.geocities.com/elitemadcow1/5x5_Program/Periodized_5x5.htm. This will be the final update to this post, anything new will go in the Geocities site. In addition as this is a cut/paste some of the weblinks that are intended to be in the description are not active so when you see "...link here" and there's no link. This is why.
If you've just randomly come to this topic or been provided a link - there is a large amount of information here: Table of Contents
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INTRODUCTION:
Okay, this is a simple program - the problem is that people have very little experience setting something like this up so we now have a giant document and all kinds of crap to answer the questions that most often arise (even some of the most inane ones). This is simple, effective, and very direct training. You will see how simple it is after you do it once but people seem to do a lot better with a surplus of information than a deficit so this is a very comprehensive piece that should answer just about everything.
HISTORY:
This program and variants have been making the rounds on the internet for a few years now. Variations have been made for specific lifters, it’s been rehashed and re-explained by various people ranging from your standard guy who had a lot of success with it all the way to some fairly high level coaches in multiple sports using it on their athletes or using it to illustrate periodization. It’s been cut/pasted into articles, internet forums, interviews, etc… Heck I've put it out there a lot and tried to give credit to every source I could locate as I was able but still my name wound up getting attached to it even though I was pretty clear that this was not a program I designed. This version here is one that I've tweaked a bit in an effort to make it more accessible to the variety of people using a program like this for the first time (i.e. trying to set it up to be as tolerable as possible). All that said the real origins stretch back fairly far but for practical application there are three primary sources who are responsible for it’s popularity over the most recent 30 years: Bill Starr, Glenn Pendlay, and Mark Rippetoe.
Bill Starr: This is a variation of Bill Starr's classic 5x5. Bill is without doubt one of the best strength coaches ever, serving at multiple universities, pro teams – including the Super Bowl 1970 Colts, and holding records in both PL and OL. His articles are frequently reprinted in Milo, have appeared in Ironman for years (they might still be in there periodically), and are generally all over the strength and conditioning world. His book on training for football, 'The Strongest Shall Survive', is a classic for coaches, players, and any strength athlete - you can pick it up at Ironmind.
Glenn Pendlay: An accomplished powerlifter and Olympic weightlifter in his own right and a fantastic strength coach, Glenn has found his real calling training and developing others. He founded and serves as the head coach for Wichita Falls Weightlifting – which he has quickly turned into one of the best teams in the nation. He is also the coach of the MSU weightlifting team, head coach of a Regional Olympic Development Center. Coming to OL relatively late he still managed to snatch 170 kilos (375lbs), cleaned 210kilos (463lbs), push pressed 200 kilos (440lbs), and military pressed within a few pounds of 400 on multiple occasions. You can learn more about him in his interview.
Mark Rippetoe: Owner of Wichita Falls Athletic Club, co-author of Starting Strength, is well known for his outrageous success in adding muscular bodyweight to new lifters (30-40lbs in 4-6 months being fairly typical). Has trained countless lifters over the years. Link to his interview.
For those interested in a more full overview of how Mark and Glenn typically train their athletes this is a solid piece to read: http://www.readthecore.com/200510/markr.htm
USAGE:
This program and variations are very much in common use all over the place even being common to elite athletes in various sports. This program is very effective at increasing strength and lean body mass, if focuses on the core lifts that drive full body hypertrophy and getting those lifts up as quickly as possible. There is little isolation work and what is generally used is targeted and specific, not the typical shotgun array of ‘let’s do everything and the kitchen sink’ that serves mainly to dilute a program’s effectiveness. Solve problems as they arise, do not waste time trying to preempt every possible future issue one can imagine. Most people who haven’t trained like this tend to be pretty amazed that the body grows very proportionately all on it’s own from a small assortment of compound lifts. The idea is you do a few things and get systematically better at them over time, don’t try to do everything all at once. Focus on what matters most and remove all the garbage so you can do it a lot and get really good.
People have had a lot of success using something like this while cutting. I have seen a number of reports of people keeping bodyweight constant, losing body fat, and increasing in most relevant measurements (chest, thigh, arms) so that says something. If you are close to a weight class limit you’ll need to be very careful. All that said, this program will make you strong but if you want to put on muscle there absolutely must be caloric excess. Read my piece on caloric excess if you haven’t already, more people screw this up than anything else. This program has gotten results for 30 years and still continues to get excellent results from bodybuilders, strength athletes, or those looking for better performance. It is a very good method of getting big and strong. In addition, specific to bodybuilding it breaks a lot of the typical voodoo myths running around like “training a muscle 1x per week is required for recovery” or that “isolation work is required or one will develop all out of proportion”. This program is about simple training and results. However, there is a ton of science behind it and one would do well to familiarize themselves with dual factor theory and the properly used concepts of volume, frequency, intensity, and workload. There is more to training than simply going into the gym, getting under a bar, and working hard hoping to come back better. So by running this program one gets gains and learns at the same time, sort of a "teach a man to fish..."
This program is not ideally done as a “cookie-cutter” but should be tailored to the experience level of the trainee. It is setup here for an experienced lifter who is completely familiar with the core lifts and is beginning periodization (i.e. with experience making week to week record progress becomes less and less a reality for all lifters over time so this would be a balanced version to use) . For most people unfamiliar with this style of training, which is a lot more taxing than doing a bunch of isolation work, it’s a good starting point. Some might find that they can be more aggressive with the weights and load harder, some might need more volume, some might find themselves doing really well in the volume phase and realizing that a single factor program with more emphasis on frequency and the core lifts is what might work best as significant strength increase during the initial phase would be a good indicator that linear progress is still available but programming must be improved (i.e. you don't need periodization, you need a good training program). Anyway, it’s a progression not a static cookie cutter although we have to start somewhere which is why I’ve drawn it up the way I have. I’ve tried my best to cover that as have others but still people get attached. As a lifter progressed workload will be expanded and obviously you can’t just keep hammering the same thing again and again. The programming interview from Pendlay and Rippetoe here http://www.readthecore.com/200510/markr.htm can probably provide more insight and they have a book coming out with Lon Kilgore called Practical Periodization (available early 2006) that is intended to cover multiyear training plans and development.
-------------------------------------------------------------
CORE DESCRIPTION:
Before beginning it is useful to know your 1 rep maxes or more ideally your real 5 rep max in each lift (there is a table and calculator in the TOC). You can base your 5x5 max off your 5 rep max just by cutting back a bit. If you don't know this - it might be useful to test your lifts first or start light and allow for some flexibility in the weekly planning so you can make adjustments on the fly as you ramp the weights week to week to across the board records in the final weeks of the volume phase. Don't overly stress on this - it's easier than it sounds and once you've run it once, subsequent cycles fall right into place.
Loading/Volume (Weeks 1-4)
Exercise Sets x Reps
Details
Monday
Squat 5x5
Bench 1x5
Barbell Row 1x5
Wednesday
Squat 5x5
10-20% less than Monday
Deadlift 5x5
Incline or Military 5x5
Pullups 3x3
Friday
Squat 1x5
Bench 5x5
Row 5x5
OPTION 1: Deload and Peak (Weeks 5-9)
Exercise Sets x Reps
Details
Monday
Squat 3x3
Bench 1x3
Barbell Row 1x3
Wednesday
Deadlift 3x3
Incline or Military 3x3
Pullups 3x3
Friday
Squat 1x3
Bench 3x3
Row 3x3
OPTION 2: Pure Deload (Weeks 5-6 or Extended)
Exercise Sets x Reps
Details
Monday
Squat 3x3
Bench 3x3
Barbell Row 3x3
Wednesday or Thursday
Squat 3x3
30% less than Monday
Deadlift 3x3
Incline or Military 3x3
Clarifying Examples:
5x5 and 3x3 are straight sets with working set weight:
i.e. 315x5, 315x5, 315x5, 315x5, 315x5 in the case of 5x5 and 315x3, 315x3, 315x3 in the case of 3x3
1x5 and 1x3 are ramped sets of 5x5 and 3x3 respectively with the weights increasing set to set over fairly even intervals:
i.e. 225x5, 255x5, 275x5, 295x5, 315x5 in the case of 1x5 and 275x3, 295x3, 315x3 in the case of 1x3
Volume/Loading Phase (Weeks 1-4):
So 5x5 is 5 sets of 5 reps with working set weight (warm up to the target weight for the week and proceed through 5x5 with that weight). Where 1x5 is present you are ramping the weights upward each set to a target set weight for a single set of 5 (it's still 5x5 but each set gets heavier and your target set is the top set of 5). The exception is the Wednesday squat for 5x5 using somewhere between 10-20% less than the working weight on the Monday 5x5 workout (the Wed squat may increase less than the Monday squat over the ramping weeks - meaning it may start at 12% less and wind up at 22% less by the last record week if one needs some extra recovery). What you are doing is gradually increasing the target weights week to week so you wind up performing record lifts in the final two weeks of the volume phase (weeks 3/4 in this case). If you miss a weight, hold it constant for the next week by carrying it forward (you should not be missing until weeks 3/4 though). Keep in mind that you have separate targets for 5x5 and 1x5 even though they are the same lift (i.e. bench press). The ramping is set separately for these and they are treated separately. It's a good idea to start conservatively as this gets fairly backbreaking and you'll be begging for week 5. The most common mistake is people starting too high. It's useful to start light and then be flexible either adding an extra week to the ramp up or moving your targets a bit as you feel your way. This is far easier in the intensity phase because you already have a reference - likewise the next time you run this workout, it'll be a no brainer. The main point in this phase is the volume. Lower the weight if need be but get the sets and reps in. If you fail on an exercise just carry the target weight forward into the next week. Some people who are new to this might find it easier to run this phase for 6 weeks starting much lighter and building slowly. If your working weights for the deadlift are 2x bodyweight (meaning you are a 200lbs lifter and you'll be doing 400+ for 5x5 throughout the cycle) it's probably a good idea to do lower the volume on that lift to 3x5 in this phase.
The easiest way to set this up the first time is to put current PRs in week 3 (with more experience and relevant lifts you might have new PR goals in both weeks 3 and 4). Your 5RM can be calculated and just drop off a given percentage for your 5x5RM (try 7.5% maybe) you get a week 3 figure for those lifts. Now back down to week 1. A conservative number to start with might be 80% of your Week 3 PR lift then split the difference for Week 2. If you are really strong (and jumps are large), you might need more weeks to ramp up. What you don't want to do is start too high, you can always tack on another week but if you start too high you blow the progression. Anyway, week 4 lifts are a margin above week 3, maybe 5%. It's important to plan it out and then play it by ear as you go, adjust where need be so that you culminate with the 2 final weeks. If that means starting lighter and running for 6 weeks that's fine. If that means, you thought 4 weeks was fine but you were unexpectedly stronger (or got stronger during this phase) and need to add an extra week to avoid a big jump, that's okay too - just be very conscious of fatigue level. Your first time through you'll feel pretty beat up after the last week, that's okay. If you are beat up entering the 2nd to last week, that's something to watch. You want to 'overreach' which is before overtraining. Sometimes you'll encounter a performance deficit and not be able to set PRs (very common for advanced athletes loading hard), without experience though you don't want to push it too hard and overdo it - takes too damn long to recover from.
Option 1: Deload and Peak 3x3 (Weeks 5-9):
This option provides for deloading in the middle weeks and working toward new PRs in the final weeks (think of it as almost 2 loading phases as the 2nd will likely fatigue you by the time you are done). This makes it a bit harder to handle particularly for first timers. In addition, trainees might need a light week or two before moving back into another loading period.
Deloading Week - Week 5:
On week 5 drop the Wednesday squat workout, begin using the Deloading/Intensity set/rep scheme, and keep the weight the same as your last week in the Volume Phase. In reality the whole intensity phase and this week are the same thing, I just break this week out because there is no weight progression so in reality after the volume phase the whole thing is deloading/intensity which for the purposes of this workout are synonymous. Also my 3x per week layout tends to get pretty aggressive as many find themselves fatigued again by the end so it kind of makes logical sense to break this period separately. Largely semantics.
Intensification Phase - Week 6-9:
Everything is the same principal except that you use 3x3 and 1x3 setting records on week 8 and 9 (or the final 2 weeks of this phase). No Wednesday squatting. It's important that you recover before getting into the heavy weight PRs again so if you have to keep Week 6 light, go ahead. The important aspect of this phase is the weight increases. If you are burned out and you need an extra day here and there that's okay - this won't hurt you at all and unless you are feeling ripe it might well be beneficial. If you can't do all the work that's okay too. Just keep increasing the weight week to week. It might also help to keep the first week in this phase just incrementally higher than the Deloading Week to provide for extra recovery if needed. During this phase you'll be ramping the weights from your deloading week to your 3x3 and 1x3 records in the final 2 weeks. In this 3x per week pattern, start light once again and get a breather. Taking extra days or cutting out volume isn’t encouraged but if you need extra recovery do it and then adjust your future training plans accordingly. If you don’t get an adequate deload first (that 1 week may not be enough) you will cripple your gains. Better to get 90% out of a training cycle than 10%. You'll learn a lot about your tolerance for volume loading and unloading here - there is no need to try to be a hero. Get some experience and the next time you run this you'll be spot on but you wind up feeling your way to a degree the first time.
Post Cycle:
Depending upon how you feel, it's probably a good idea to deload again before moving back into another volume phase if you ran the 3x per week like I outlined above. See the alternative schedule below and perform this light for 2 weeks working on speed/acceleration. If you ran the 2x alternate schedule below for your deload/intensity you can likely move straight back into another volume phase.
Option 2: Pure Deload (Weeks 5-6 or Extended)
This is designed to get you recovered without too much hassle or worry. Frequency is dropped to 2x per week and the Friday workout is dropped. The Wednesday workout can be moved to Thursday if desired. This phase can be run as long as needed to recover or until one wants to do something else. Maybe that's 1-2 weeks for some people to build enough steam to jump back into a loading phase. Maybe that's 4-5 weeks if someone feels they are really getting a lot out of it.
Week 5 and on switch to 3x3 and drop the Friday workout altogether. Week 5 weights are the same as the final week of loading. Over the following weeks increase the weight workout to workout if you get all 9 reps. If you don't get all the reps, keep the weight constant. You'll likely be able to move straight back into another volume phase after this is complete. As for the increases week to week, probably best to use a percentage but to make it easy for first timers maybe add 5lbs to benches and rows then 10lbs to squats and deads.
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OTHER PERTINENT INFORMATION
The Lifts:
Squats - these should be full range Olympic style squats. Use the full range of your body - that means as low as you can go which for almost everyone is past parallel. If the top of your thighs aren't at least parallel it's for shit. If you think this is bad for your knees going low, you and whoever told you that are relying on an old wives tale. Anyone who knows the human body will tell you that below parallel is MUCH safer on the knees whereas parallel and above put all the sheer right on them and doesn’t allow proper transfer of the load to the rest of your body (this is how your body was designed). Read the Squat article from Arioch linked in the TOC for a complete description and references on the mechanics of the squat and depth.
Deads - each rep is deweighted fully on the floor. No touch and go. This is called the 'dead'lift because the weight is 'dead' on the ground. You can touch and go warm ups but that's it.
Military - standing overhead presses. Supporting weight overhead is a fundamental exercise and stimulates the whole body. Push presses are a fine substitute.
Rows - 90 degrees and done dynamically (Accelerate the weight into your body - do not jerk it but constantly increase the pace like an oar through water). There is a TOC topic on rows, a good read that also illustrates a version done from the floor.
Common Sense - you should know how to do the lifts before starting a program like this. Start light and learn. Don't include brand new compound lifts that have you training near your limit without some time in. This is how you get hurt. Compound lifts load the entire body and are very effective. If you have a weak link, they will bring it up - of course if you haven't trained the lift long enough for this to happen your weak link may get you hurt. Use your brain.
The rest is self explanatory.
Time Between Sets:
Don't over think this. Use a natural rep speed, take what you need between sets. Don't be lazy but don't rush. You can't be doing rapid fire sets of big compound lifts. Maybe on the lightest warm-ups you take a minute but most sets will be 2-5 minute range with 2 being between fairly easy sets and 5 being after a heavy set in preparation for another very serious major effort that drains you. I can see exceeding the 5 minute limit by a tad when really pushing near failure in the PR weeks when you are uncertain of getting your reps on your last set. Just use your brain and don't micromanage.
Diet:
Depends on whether you are trying to gain muscle or what. I will say that for gaining muscle, caloric excess must be present. Read the caloric excess topic in the table of contents. More people, particularly bodybuilders, go wrong here. If caloric excess is present and training stinks, you will get fatter. The few guys who have come back with no weight gain got very strong and gained no net weight - guess what - they were already fairly lean (i.e. no excess in their diet otherwise they'd have been fatter) and they didn't gain fat or muscle (no caloric excess during training). There's nothing any program can do if you won't eat. For the purposes of gaining muscle or getting big and strong it's better to eat McDonalds and KFC all day long than not eat enough Zen clean ultra pure food which might be healthier but if not enough there's simply nothing to use to grow. So caloric excess is a requirement, you don't need to eat like a slob but it will work infinitely better than not eating enough healthy food for this purpose. Lots of people have gotten big and strong on diets that were bad, if you choose to eat squeaky clean, kudos to you but it is not critical to putting on muscle (it might be critical to a long high quality life though).
Learning about Your Tolerances/Setting Up Your 2nd Training Cycle:
This can be somewhat daunting to set your weights the first time you run this and for reasons already stated it's a lot better to be on the conservative side. I don’t provide percentages because this is very individual and I want people to pay attention to their bodies and learn – stated percentages have a way of short circuiting the learning mechanism even in the face of common sense. Once you've been through this once, you'll learn a lot about your tolerances and you'll have a set of very relevant records which you can sub right into the next training cycle. Your best 5x5 would become week 3 and then week 4 a margin above it (this is conservative) - or ideally week 3 would exceed your best 5x5 by a margin and then week 4 above that (this makes for a tougher loading cycle and this is one of the things you'll learn whether or not to do for your current state of conditioning). In addition, if you are really loading hard, performance will decline towards the end so setting records and actually getting the lifts may not be possible (and that’s okay because the juice comes on the other end). The other lifts 1x5, 3x3, 1x3 are similarly adjusted based on previous records. Also, people's tolerances vary widely at every level. Take 2 top competitive lifters - they may lift exactly the same weight, have similar training history, and be equally sized but one requires a massive amount of volume in training while another does not. No ego just what each needs to stimulate progress. As you go, you'll learn all about what you need, what you can handle, and what is too much. Eventually, you'll be able to tailor this program or an entire 6 month training cycle to your individual specs and requirements. Obviously reading the Training Theory topics in the TOC is going to really assist in providing you a framework in how to quantify and design your programs.
Incorporating the Olympic Lifts:
The above is basically setup for someone who doesn't know the OLs. Starr's original workout included Power Cleans and High Pulls. Instead of Bent Rows substitute Power Cleans. Rather than Deads substitute High Pulls. That’s a quick and dirty way of handling this without much disruption.
Substituting Exercises:
Don't fuck with this. Every bodybuilder seems to have Attention Deficit Disorder and an overwhelming desire to customize everything. The bottom line is that these are all the most effective exercises and just about anything one does will result in less gains. As a rule those people who want to change it don't know enough to make proper alterations - those who do know enough, don't have much to change. The guy who is responsible for this program is of the best on the planet at bulking lifters and making people stronger. It's kind of like Sesame Street's Elmo offering neurosurgery advice at NYU. Anyway, it's absolutely essential not to screw with the squats, they are the foundation of this program. If you want to sub inclines or push presses for military that's okay. Do not sub machines - don't even think about it, hit yourself with a plate if you must. For arms choose a single biceps and triceps exercise and perform them at the end once per week for 3 sets of whatever - your arms will take a beating from all the pulling and pressing anyway. If you want to chin on Wednesday or do a few sets of pulldowns/ups that's fine (avoid the machines if you can use bodyweight). Core work is always fine. Cardio is fine - interval training is the best for this I'll just throw out. If this is just too much mental strain, take solace in the fact that it's just a few weeks, you'll gain a ton of muscle and strength and then you can spend the next 4 weeks adding the minute detail to refine the gained mass (like most care anyway - I have yet to meet a guy on this board who will trade 20lbs of muscle for a bit of added detail somewhere). In a nutshell, put your trust in some of the better coaches on the planet and enjoy the results.
Bands/Chains/Speed/DE:
If you don't know what this is, don't worry about it. Read up on Westside sometime - it's not integral to the program but incorporating work like this into your training cycles can be worthwhile no matter if you are a PL, general athlete looking for performance or bodybuilder. For those that do and want to incorporate them, the 1x5 days are the days you would choose for these in the generic layout.
New or Novice Lifters:
A dual factor program is unnecessary. This is more work than you need and slower progression. Why add weight once every 4-8 weeks if you can string together new personal records for weeks at a time back to back. I really recommend Rippetoe's Starting Strength for beginners or novices. It's so critical to learn the lifts correctly and get started on a good program (i.e. not what one typically finds on bodybuilding sites).
Advanced Lifters:
As one learns about one's tolerances and progresses over time one will generally find that one is able to gradually accommodate more volume. Some might find it more advantageous from a recovery standpoint to do all their 5x5 work on Monday and save the 1x5 for Friday. In terms of this generic template what generally happens is that a lifter will remove the pyramid 1x5 workouts and swap them into a second 5x5 over time. In addition, an advanced lifter might start their ramps much closer to their record weights (that said, this same lifter might need a longer period of acclimation before being able to handle record weights so a lot depends on the individual and the current state of the athlete). As one's weights increase the volume can also be spread over 4 days rather than 3 to accommodate the fatigue from the heavier weights – especially the Wednesday deadlift. These lifters might also compress the training cycle into 2-3 weeks of loading and 1-2 weeks of deloading once they are geared up and training hard (this would be within the context of a longer training plan like a planned out Macrocycle – give a read to Planning Your Training Cycle and the Training Theory section of the TOC). I'm just going to state, this stuff is for someone who has spent some time doing this type of work. I only include this for completeness because it is needed to illustrate progression and if I put an “advanced” version down you can bet everyone would be doing it, burning out, making zero progress, and I’d be “wrong” and this program would be “bad”. The way I have it listed above will overload just about anyone besides an accomplished seasoned lifter and push them to their limit if they set their weight right. You apply more volume when you need it, not as an ego thing. This will destroy or drastically limit your gains. Don't do this unless you've run many dual factor training cycles and are absolutely sure you need it. I'm being overly cautious but most people on this board come from a bodybuilding background where typical programs are the 3 day split variety hitting each muscle 1x per week. This base program itself is a whole different world of volume and the tweaks here can make it much more taxing and in every single case that I've seen where someone is even relatively new to this style of program - they should not be employed.
Bill Starr - Glenn Pendlay 5x5
Periodized Version for Advanced Lifters
Intro to Periodization
Periodized Version for Advanced Lifters
Intro to Periodization
Note: I have a more complete and better formatted description along with a template download and a ton of other information in this link: http://www.geocities.com/elitemadcow1/5x5_Program/Periodized_5x5.htm. This will be the final update to this post, anything new will go in the Geocities site. In addition as this is a cut/paste some of the weblinks that are intended to be in the description are not active so when you see "...link here" and there's no link. This is why.
If you've just randomly come to this topic or been provided a link - there is a large amount of information here: Table of Contents
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INTRODUCTION:
Okay, this is a simple program - the problem is that people have very little experience setting something like this up so we now have a giant document and all kinds of crap to answer the questions that most often arise (even some of the most inane ones). This is simple, effective, and very direct training. You will see how simple it is after you do it once but people seem to do a lot better with a surplus of information than a deficit so this is a very comprehensive piece that should answer just about everything.
HISTORY:
This program and variants have been making the rounds on the internet for a few years now. Variations have been made for specific lifters, it’s been rehashed and re-explained by various people ranging from your standard guy who had a lot of success with it all the way to some fairly high level coaches in multiple sports using it on their athletes or using it to illustrate periodization. It’s been cut/pasted into articles, internet forums, interviews, etc… Heck I've put it out there a lot and tried to give credit to every source I could locate as I was able but still my name wound up getting attached to it even though I was pretty clear that this was not a program I designed. This version here is one that I've tweaked a bit in an effort to make it more accessible to the variety of people using a program like this for the first time (i.e. trying to set it up to be as tolerable as possible). All that said the real origins stretch back fairly far but for practical application there are three primary sources who are responsible for it’s popularity over the most recent 30 years: Bill Starr, Glenn Pendlay, and Mark Rippetoe.
Bill Starr: This is a variation of Bill Starr's classic 5x5. Bill is without doubt one of the best strength coaches ever, serving at multiple universities, pro teams – including the Super Bowl 1970 Colts, and holding records in both PL and OL. His articles are frequently reprinted in Milo, have appeared in Ironman for years (they might still be in there periodically), and are generally all over the strength and conditioning world. His book on training for football, 'The Strongest Shall Survive', is a classic for coaches, players, and any strength athlete - you can pick it up at Ironmind.
Glenn Pendlay: An accomplished powerlifter and Olympic weightlifter in his own right and a fantastic strength coach, Glenn has found his real calling training and developing others. He founded and serves as the head coach for Wichita Falls Weightlifting – which he has quickly turned into one of the best teams in the nation. He is also the coach of the MSU weightlifting team, head coach of a Regional Olympic Development Center. Coming to OL relatively late he still managed to snatch 170 kilos (375lbs), cleaned 210kilos (463lbs), push pressed 200 kilos (440lbs), and military pressed within a few pounds of 400 on multiple occasions. You can learn more about him in his interview.
Mark Rippetoe: Owner of Wichita Falls Athletic Club, co-author of Starting Strength, is well known for his outrageous success in adding muscular bodyweight to new lifters (30-40lbs in 4-6 months being fairly typical). Has trained countless lifters over the years. Link to his interview.
For those interested in a more full overview of how Mark and Glenn typically train their athletes this is a solid piece to read: http://www.readthecore.com/200510/markr.htm
USAGE:
This program and variations are very much in common use all over the place even being common to elite athletes in various sports. This program is very effective at increasing strength and lean body mass, if focuses on the core lifts that drive full body hypertrophy and getting those lifts up as quickly as possible. There is little isolation work and what is generally used is targeted and specific, not the typical shotgun array of ‘let’s do everything and the kitchen sink’ that serves mainly to dilute a program’s effectiveness. Solve problems as they arise, do not waste time trying to preempt every possible future issue one can imagine. Most people who haven’t trained like this tend to be pretty amazed that the body grows very proportionately all on it’s own from a small assortment of compound lifts. The idea is you do a few things and get systematically better at them over time, don’t try to do everything all at once. Focus on what matters most and remove all the garbage so you can do it a lot and get really good.
People have had a lot of success using something like this while cutting. I have seen a number of reports of people keeping bodyweight constant, losing body fat, and increasing in most relevant measurements (chest, thigh, arms) so that says something. If you are close to a weight class limit you’ll need to be very careful. All that said, this program will make you strong but if you want to put on muscle there absolutely must be caloric excess. Read my piece on caloric excess if you haven’t already, more people screw this up than anything else. This program has gotten results for 30 years and still continues to get excellent results from bodybuilders, strength athletes, or those looking for better performance. It is a very good method of getting big and strong. In addition, specific to bodybuilding it breaks a lot of the typical voodoo myths running around like “training a muscle 1x per week is required for recovery” or that “isolation work is required or one will develop all out of proportion”. This program is about simple training and results. However, there is a ton of science behind it and one would do well to familiarize themselves with dual factor theory and the properly used concepts of volume, frequency, intensity, and workload. There is more to training than simply going into the gym, getting under a bar, and working hard hoping to come back better. So by running this program one gets gains and learns at the same time, sort of a "teach a man to fish..."
This program is not ideally done as a “cookie-cutter” but should be tailored to the experience level of the trainee. It is setup here for an experienced lifter who is completely familiar with the core lifts and is beginning periodization (i.e. with experience making week to week record progress becomes less and less a reality for all lifters over time so this would be a balanced version to use) . For most people unfamiliar with this style of training, which is a lot more taxing than doing a bunch of isolation work, it’s a good starting point. Some might find that they can be more aggressive with the weights and load harder, some might need more volume, some might find themselves doing really well in the volume phase and realizing that a single factor program with more emphasis on frequency and the core lifts is what might work best as significant strength increase during the initial phase would be a good indicator that linear progress is still available but programming must be improved (i.e. you don't need periodization, you need a good training program). Anyway, it’s a progression not a static cookie cutter although we have to start somewhere which is why I’ve drawn it up the way I have. I’ve tried my best to cover that as have others but still people get attached. As a lifter progressed workload will be expanded and obviously you can’t just keep hammering the same thing again and again. The programming interview from Pendlay and Rippetoe here http://www.readthecore.com/200510/markr.htm can probably provide more insight and they have a book coming out with Lon Kilgore called Practical Periodization (available early 2006) that is intended to cover multiyear training plans and development.
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CORE DESCRIPTION:
Before beginning it is useful to know your 1 rep maxes or more ideally your real 5 rep max in each lift (there is a table and calculator in the TOC). You can base your 5x5 max off your 5 rep max just by cutting back a bit. If you don't know this - it might be useful to test your lifts first or start light and allow for some flexibility in the weekly planning so you can make adjustments on the fly as you ramp the weights week to week to across the board records in the final weeks of the volume phase. Don't overly stress on this - it's easier than it sounds and once you've run it once, subsequent cycles fall right into place.
Loading/Volume (Weeks 1-4)
Exercise Sets x Reps
Details
Monday
Squat 5x5
Bench 1x5
Barbell Row 1x5
Wednesday
Squat 5x5
10-20% less than Monday
Deadlift 5x5
Incline or Military 5x5
Pullups 3x3
Friday
Squat 1x5
Bench 5x5
Row 5x5
OPTION 1: Deload and Peak (Weeks 5-9)
Exercise Sets x Reps
Details
Monday
Squat 3x3
Bench 1x3
Barbell Row 1x3
Wednesday
Deadlift 3x3
Incline or Military 3x3
Pullups 3x3
Friday
Squat 1x3
Bench 3x3
Row 3x3
OPTION 2: Pure Deload (Weeks 5-6 or Extended)
Exercise Sets x Reps
Details
Monday
Squat 3x3
Bench 3x3
Barbell Row 3x3
Wednesday or Thursday
Squat 3x3
30% less than Monday
Deadlift 3x3
Incline or Military 3x3
Clarifying Examples:
5x5 and 3x3 are straight sets with working set weight:
i.e. 315x5, 315x5, 315x5, 315x5, 315x5 in the case of 5x5 and 315x3, 315x3, 315x3 in the case of 3x3
1x5 and 1x3 are ramped sets of 5x5 and 3x3 respectively with the weights increasing set to set over fairly even intervals:
i.e. 225x5, 255x5, 275x5, 295x5, 315x5 in the case of 1x5 and 275x3, 295x3, 315x3 in the case of 1x3
Volume/Loading Phase (Weeks 1-4):
So 5x5 is 5 sets of 5 reps with working set weight (warm up to the target weight for the week and proceed through 5x5 with that weight). Where 1x5 is present you are ramping the weights upward each set to a target set weight for a single set of 5 (it's still 5x5 but each set gets heavier and your target set is the top set of 5). The exception is the Wednesday squat for 5x5 using somewhere between 10-20% less than the working weight on the Monday 5x5 workout (the Wed squat may increase less than the Monday squat over the ramping weeks - meaning it may start at 12% less and wind up at 22% less by the last record week if one needs some extra recovery). What you are doing is gradually increasing the target weights week to week so you wind up performing record lifts in the final two weeks of the volume phase (weeks 3/4 in this case). If you miss a weight, hold it constant for the next week by carrying it forward (you should not be missing until weeks 3/4 though). Keep in mind that you have separate targets for 5x5 and 1x5 even though they are the same lift (i.e. bench press). The ramping is set separately for these and they are treated separately. It's a good idea to start conservatively as this gets fairly backbreaking and you'll be begging for week 5. The most common mistake is people starting too high. It's useful to start light and then be flexible either adding an extra week to the ramp up or moving your targets a bit as you feel your way. This is far easier in the intensity phase because you already have a reference - likewise the next time you run this workout, it'll be a no brainer. The main point in this phase is the volume. Lower the weight if need be but get the sets and reps in. If you fail on an exercise just carry the target weight forward into the next week. Some people who are new to this might find it easier to run this phase for 6 weeks starting much lighter and building slowly. If your working weights for the deadlift are 2x bodyweight (meaning you are a 200lbs lifter and you'll be doing 400+ for 5x5 throughout the cycle) it's probably a good idea to do lower the volume on that lift to 3x5 in this phase.
The easiest way to set this up the first time is to put current PRs in week 3 (with more experience and relevant lifts you might have new PR goals in both weeks 3 and 4). Your 5RM can be calculated and just drop off a given percentage for your 5x5RM (try 7.5% maybe) you get a week 3 figure for those lifts. Now back down to week 1. A conservative number to start with might be 80% of your Week 3 PR lift then split the difference for Week 2. If you are really strong (and jumps are large), you might need more weeks to ramp up. What you don't want to do is start too high, you can always tack on another week but if you start too high you blow the progression. Anyway, week 4 lifts are a margin above week 3, maybe 5%. It's important to plan it out and then play it by ear as you go, adjust where need be so that you culminate with the 2 final weeks. If that means starting lighter and running for 6 weeks that's fine. If that means, you thought 4 weeks was fine but you were unexpectedly stronger (or got stronger during this phase) and need to add an extra week to avoid a big jump, that's okay too - just be very conscious of fatigue level. Your first time through you'll feel pretty beat up after the last week, that's okay. If you are beat up entering the 2nd to last week, that's something to watch. You want to 'overreach' which is before overtraining. Sometimes you'll encounter a performance deficit and not be able to set PRs (very common for advanced athletes loading hard), without experience though you don't want to push it too hard and overdo it - takes too damn long to recover from.
Option 1: Deload and Peak 3x3 (Weeks 5-9):
This option provides for deloading in the middle weeks and working toward new PRs in the final weeks (think of it as almost 2 loading phases as the 2nd will likely fatigue you by the time you are done). This makes it a bit harder to handle particularly for first timers. In addition, trainees might need a light week or two before moving back into another loading period.
Deloading Week - Week 5:
On week 5 drop the Wednesday squat workout, begin using the Deloading/Intensity set/rep scheme, and keep the weight the same as your last week in the Volume Phase. In reality the whole intensity phase and this week are the same thing, I just break this week out because there is no weight progression so in reality after the volume phase the whole thing is deloading/intensity which for the purposes of this workout are synonymous. Also my 3x per week layout tends to get pretty aggressive as many find themselves fatigued again by the end so it kind of makes logical sense to break this period separately. Largely semantics.
Intensification Phase - Week 6-9:
Everything is the same principal except that you use 3x3 and 1x3 setting records on week 8 and 9 (or the final 2 weeks of this phase). No Wednesday squatting. It's important that you recover before getting into the heavy weight PRs again so if you have to keep Week 6 light, go ahead. The important aspect of this phase is the weight increases. If you are burned out and you need an extra day here and there that's okay - this won't hurt you at all and unless you are feeling ripe it might well be beneficial. If you can't do all the work that's okay too. Just keep increasing the weight week to week. It might also help to keep the first week in this phase just incrementally higher than the Deloading Week to provide for extra recovery if needed. During this phase you'll be ramping the weights from your deloading week to your 3x3 and 1x3 records in the final 2 weeks. In this 3x per week pattern, start light once again and get a breather. Taking extra days or cutting out volume isn’t encouraged but if you need extra recovery do it and then adjust your future training plans accordingly. If you don’t get an adequate deload first (that 1 week may not be enough) you will cripple your gains. Better to get 90% out of a training cycle than 10%. You'll learn a lot about your tolerance for volume loading and unloading here - there is no need to try to be a hero. Get some experience and the next time you run this you'll be spot on but you wind up feeling your way to a degree the first time.
Post Cycle:
Depending upon how you feel, it's probably a good idea to deload again before moving back into another volume phase if you ran the 3x per week like I outlined above. See the alternative schedule below and perform this light for 2 weeks working on speed/acceleration. If you ran the 2x alternate schedule below for your deload/intensity you can likely move straight back into another volume phase.
Option 2: Pure Deload (Weeks 5-6 or Extended)
This is designed to get you recovered without too much hassle or worry. Frequency is dropped to 2x per week and the Friday workout is dropped. The Wednesday workout can be moved to Thursday if desired. This phase can be run as long as needed to recover or until one wants to do something else. Maybe that's 1-2 weeks for some people to build enough steam to jump back into a loading phase. Maybe that's 4-5 weeks if someone feels they are really getting a lot out of it.
Week 5 and on switch to 3x3 and drop the Friday workout altogether. Week 5 weights are the same as the final week of loading. Over the following weeks increase the weight workout to workout if you get all 9 reps. If you don't get all the reps, keep the weight constant. You'll likely be able to move straight back into another volume phase after this is complete. As for the increases week to week, probably best to use a percentage but to make it easy for first timers maybe add 5lbs to benches and rows then 10lbs to squats and deads.
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OTHER PERTINENT INFORMATION
The Lifts:
Squats - these should be full range Olympic style squats. Use the full range of your body - that means as low as you can go which for almost everyone is past parallel. If the top of your thighs aren't at least parallel it's for shit. If you think this is bad for your knees going low, you and whoever told you that are relying on an old wives tale. Anyone who knows the human body will tell you that below parallel is MUCH safer on the knees whereas parallel and above put all the sheer right on them and doesn’t allow proper transfer of the load to the rest of your body (this is how your body was designed). Read the Squat article from Arioch linked in the TOC for a complete description and references on the mechanics of the squat and depth.
Deads - each rep is deweighted fully on the floor. No touch and go. This is called the 'dead'lift because the weight is 'dead' on the ground. You can touch and go warm ups but that's it.
Military - standing overhead presses. Supporting weight overhead is a fundamental exercise and stimulates the whole body. Push presses are a fine substitute.
Rows - 90 degrees and done dynamically (Accelerate the weight into your body - do not jerk it but constantly increase the pace like an oar through water). There is a TOC topic on rows, a good read that also illustrates a version done from the floor.
Common Sense - you should know how to do the lifts before starting a program like this. Start light and learn. Don't include brand new compound lifts that have you training near your limit without some time in. This is how you get hurt. Compound lifts load the entire body and are very effective. If you have a weak link, they will bring it up - of course if you haven't trained the lift long enough for this to happen your weak link may get you hurt. Use your brain.
The rest is self explanatory.
Time Between Sets:
Don't over think this. Use a natural rep speed, take what you need between sets. Don't be lazy but don't rush. You can't be doing rapid fire sets of big compound lifts. Maybe on the lightest warm-ups you take a minute but most sets will be 2-5 minute range with 2 being between fairly easy sets and 5 being after a heavy set in preparation for another very serious major effort that drains you. I can see exceeding the 5 minute limit by a tad when really pushing near failure in the PR weeks when you are uncertain of getting your reps on your last set. Just use your brain and don't micromanage.
Diet:
Depends on whether you are trying to gain muscle or what. I will say that for gaining muscle, caloric excess must be present. Read the caloric excess topic in the table of contents. More people, particularly bodybuilders, go wrong here. If caloric excess is present and training stinks, you will get fatter. The few guys who have come back with no weight gain got very strong and gained no net weight - guess what - they were already fairly lean (i.e. no excess in their diet otherwise they'd have been fatter) and they didn't gain fat or muscle (no caloric excess during training). There's nothing any program can do if you won't eat. For the purposes of gaining muscle or getting big and strong it's better to eat McDonalds and KFC all day long than not eat enough Zen clean ultra pure food which might be healthier but if not enough there's simply nothing to use to grow. So caloric excess is a requirement, you don't need to eat like a slob but it will work infinitely better than not eating enough healthy food for this purpose. Lots of people have gotten big and strong on diets that were bad, if you choose to eat squeaky clean, kudos to you but it is not critical to putting on muscle (it might be critical to a long high quality life though).
Learning about Your Tolerances/Setting Up Your 2nd Training Cycle:
This can be somewhat daunting to set your weights the first time you run this and for reasons already stated it's a lot better to be on the conservative side. I don’t provide percentages because this is very individual and I want people to pay attention to their bodies and learn – stated percentages have a way of short circuiting the learning mechanism even in the face of common sense. Once you've been through this once, you'll learn a lot about your tolerances and you'll have a set of very relevant records which you can sub right into the next training cycle. Your best 5x5 would become week 3 and then week 4 a margin above it (this is conservative) - or ideally week 3 would exceed your best 5x5 by a margin and then week 4 above that (this makes for a tougher loading cycle and this is one of the things you'll learn whether or not to do for your current state of conditioning). In addition, if you are really loading hard, performance will decline towards the end so setting records and actually getting the lifts may not be possible (and that’s okay because the juice comes on the other end). The other lifts 1x5, 3x3, 1x3 are similarly adjusted based on previous records. Also, people's tolerances vary widely at every level. Take 2 top competitive lifters - they may lift exactly the same weight, have similar training history, and be equally sized but one requires a massive amount of volume in training while another does not. No ego just what each needs to stimulate progress. As you go, you'll learn all about what you need, what you can handle, and what is too much. Eventually, you'll be able to tailor this program or an entire 6 month training cycle to your individual specs and requirements. Obviously reading the Training Theory topics in the TOC is going to really assist in providing you a framework in how to quantify and design your programs.
Incorporating the Olympic Lifts:
The above is basically setup for someone who doesn't know the OLs. Starr's original workout included Power Cleans and High Pulls. Instead of Bent Rows substitute Power Cleans. Rather than Deads substitute High Pulls. That’s a quick and dirty way of handling this without much disruption.
Substituting Exercises:
Don't fuck with this. Every bodybuilder seems to have Attention Deficit Disorder and an overwhelming desire to customize everything. The bottom line is that these are all the most effective exercises and just about anything one does will result in less gains. As a rule those people who want to change it don't know enough to make proper alterations - those who do know enough, don't have much to change. The guy who is responsible for this program is of the best on the planet at bulking lifters and making people stronger. It's kind of like Sesame Street's Elmo offering neurosurgery advice at NYU. Anyway, it's absolutely essential not to screw with the squats, they are the foundation of this program. If you want to sub inclines or push presses for military that's okay. Do not sub machines - don't even think about it, hit yourself with a plate if you must. For arms choose a single biceps and triceps exercise and perform them at the end once per week for 3 sets of whatever - your arms will take a beating from all the pulling and pressing anyway. If you want to chin on Wednesday or do a few sets of pulldowns/ups that's fine (avoid the machines if you can use bodyweight). Core work is always fine. Cardio is fine - interval training is the best for this I'll just throw out. If this is just too much mental strain, take solace in the fact that it's just a few weeks, you'll gain a ton of muscle and strength and then you can spend the next 4 weeks adding the minute detail to refine the gained mass (like most care anyway - I have yet to meet a guy on this board who will trade 20lbs of muscle for a bit of added detail somewhere). In a nutshell, put your trust in some of the better coaches on the planet and enjoy the results.
Bands/Chains/Speed/DE:
If you don't know what this is, don't worry about it. Read up on Westside sometime - it's not integral to the program but incorporating work like this into your training cycles can be worthwhile no matter if you are a PL, general athlete looking for performance or bodybuilder. For those that do and want to incorporate them, the 1x5 days are the days you would choose for these in the generic layout.
New or Novice Lifters:
A dual factor program is unnecessary. This is more work than you need and slower progression. Why add weight once every 4-8 weeks if you can string together new personal records for weeks at a time back to back. I really recommend Rippetoe's Starting Strength for beginners or novices. It's so critical to learn the lifts correctly and get started on a good program (i.e. not what one typically finds on bodybuilding sites).
Advanced Lifters:
As one learns about one's tolerances and progresses over time one will generally find that one is able to gradually accommodate more volume. Some might find it more advantageous from a recovery standpoint to do all their 5x5 work on Monday and save the 1x5 for Friday. In terms of this generic template what generally happens is that a lifter will remove the pyramid 1x5 workouts and swap them into a second 5x5 over time. In addition, an advanced lifter might start their ramps much closer to their record weights (that said, this same lifter might need a longer period of acclimation before being able to handle record weights so a lot depends on the individual and the current state of the athlete). As one's weights increase the volume can also be spread over 4 days rather than 3 to accommodate the fatigue from the heavier weights – especially the Wednesday deadlift. These lifters might also compress the training cycle into 2-3 weeks of loading and 1-2 weeks of deloading once they are geared up and training hard (this would be within the context of a longer training plan like a planned out Macrocycle – give a read to Planning Your Training Cycle and the Training Theory section of the TOC). I'm just going to state, this stuff is for someone who has spent some time doing this type of work. I only include this for completeness because it is needed to illustrate progression and if I put an “advanced” version down you can bet everyone would be doing it, burning out, making zero progress, and I’d be “wrong” and this program would be “bad”. The way I have it listed above will overload just about anyone besides an accomplished seasoned lifter and push them to their limit if they set their weight right. You apply more volume when you need it, not as an ego thing. This will destroy or drastically limit your gains. Don't do this unless you've run many dual factor training cycles and are absolutely sure you need it. I'm being overly cautious but most people on this board come from a bodybuilding background where typical programs are the 3 day split variety hitting each muscle 1x per week. This base program itself is a whole different world of volume and the tweaks here can make it much more taxing and in every single case that I've seen where someone is even relatively new to this style of program - they should not be employed.
Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n
Based off the workout and rep schemes I have been doing, should I go with the intermediate (single factor) or advanced (dual factor) version of the 5x5? I am just worried that I will not be able to keep advancing in the SF. Then again, I have never tried this type of volume before (e.g. squats 3x/week). When I first started training and knew absolutely nothing about it, I would go to the Y and do the same total body workout 3x a week. It always started with the bench press and I noticed over time that my bench press just stopped improving. That's what kind of concerns me with making the kinds of consistent weight increases in the SF version and not deloaing as in the advanced version. Perhaps someone would provide me with a definition of intermediate and advanced. At what point do you realize that you need to move over to DF training instead of linear?
Based off the workout and rep schemes I have been doing, should I go with the intermediate (single factor) or advanced (dual factor) version of the 5x5? I am just worried that I will not be able to keep advancing in the SF. Then again, I have never tried this type of volume before (e.g. squats 3x/week). When I first started training and knew absolutely nothing about it, I would go to the Y and do the same total body workout 3x a week. It always started with the bench press and I noticed over time that my bench press just stopped improving. That's what kind of concerns me with making the kinds of consistent weight increases in the SF version and not deloaing as in the advanced version. Perhaps someone would provide me with a definition of intermediate and advanced. At what point do you realize that you need to move over to DF training instead of linear?
Well, a more periodized (dual factor) setup basically entails progression 1x every 4-8 weeks or somewhere in that range. A more linear program allows for a few weeks of ramping and then weekly progression for as long as you can carry it. Now even if it's just 2 weeks of PRs before things stall, that's still roughly 5% on your lifts in 5 weeks and 2 PR increments - so much faster progress for most people even if they can't manage long runs. Basically the experienced the lifter the longer his linear runs until finally that stops working so well (i.e. you basically don't go anywhere and get more reliable progress by adding a bit more complexity).
Also, I'm talking about linear programs in generally not just this one layout, you try to milk this for as long as you can and change it as needed. Of course you don't want to change things so much that you wind up working on something stupid for progression which when you come back to your core winds up resulting in no progress or a backslide i.e. you might be able to make a lot of progress on your 30RM for a number of weeks but most find that work doesn't help and can cause significant backslide in their 5RM.
So you go with the template that is going to give you the fastest progress. What a lot of people really need is a decent training program and not so much added complexity so I'd err on the conservative side, start with something linear and see how it works out. You might be surprised and that would save you a lot of time and unnecessary effort in getting closer to your goals. Plus, it will provide you the answer.
Also, I'm talking about linear programs in generally not just this one layout, you try to milk this for as long as you can and change it as needed. Of course you don't want to change things so much that you wind up working on something stupid for progression which when you come back to your core winds up resulting in no progress or a backslide i.e. you might be able to make a lot of progress on your 30RM for a number of weeks but most find that work doesn't help and can cause significant backslide in their 5RM.
So you go with the template that is going to give you the fastest progress. What a lot of people really need is a decent training program and not so much added complexity so I'd err on the conservative side, start with something linear and see how it works out. You might be surprised and that would save you a lot of time and unnecessary effort in getting closer to your goals. Plus, it will provide you the answer.
Maks
New member
Hullo,
I have been doing the 5x5 SF for 16 weeks now Thanks again, the progress is much more than i expected. I'm still progressing, but it gets harder and slower on some of the lifts (Esp. rows and mp)
One question: My shoulders are quite weak, and have ever been. My military press is at 45 kg now on the top set and it is pretty hard. In contrast to that, my bench is at 90 kg and there is air left.
Is there a sensible way to put more emphasis on the shoulders ? Or, is it sensible at all ?
I thought of doing 5x5 sets on Wednesday without ramping, for more volume. Or simply switch the military presses and the bench ? Or doing some accessory work ?
I dont know if that makes sense - some people seem to get along quite well without doing any direct shoulder work, with them getting worked out at almost all the other lifts as well. Maybe its just genetics. Maybe i simply have to try it out.
Any thoughts ?
Btw, thanks again for all your work. If not for this programm i would still be declining along some stupid split workout, desillusioned and frustrated.
happy lifting all !!
I have been doing the 5x5 SF for 16 weeks now
Thanks again, the progress is much more than i expected. I'm still progressing, but it gets harder and slower on some of the lifts (Esp. rows and mp)One question: My shoulders are quite weak, and have ever been. My military press is at 45 kg now on the top set and it is pretty hard. In contrast to that, my bench is at 90 kg and there is air left.
Is there a sensible way to put more emphasis on the shoulders ? Or, is it sensible at all ?
I thought of doing 5x5 sets on Wednesday without ramping, for more volume. Or simply switch the military presses and the bench ? Or doing some accessory work ?
I dont know if that makes sense - some people seem to get along quite well without doing any direct shoulder work, with them getting worked out at almost all the other lifts as well. Maybe its just genetics. Maybe i simply have to try it out.
Any thoughts ?
Btw, thanks again for all your work. If not for this programm i would still be declining along some stupid split workout, desillusioned and frustrated.
happy lifting all !!
Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n
Sounds good to me. Now that it's set in my mind what I'm going to do, I feel much better about it. I read in one of the interviews with Mark Rippetoe and Glenn Pendlay, I think Mark was saying that for someone who hasn't really tried this method before with so much volume in the compound lifts per week, they should start out a few weeks before the "real" program with lighter 5x5's so that they work up to their maxes in the 3rd week of the linear program. I believe this is almost exactly what you were suggesting a few posts ago. Looking at the estimates provided by the Excel spreadsheet of the Linear Version,
91
113
136
159
181
are the weights for the first week's monday workout. So, for example, if I would like to start easing into it 3 weeks in advance, should I simply subtract about 10-15% from each of these numbers per week and use those as my 5x5 sets so that I hit week 1, do these listed weights, and then progress up until week 3 where I should hit my 5-rep maxes?
Also, I'm curious as to what you would classify the workout I have been doing for a while now. I listed the set/rep schemes a few posts before this. Thanks.
Sounds good to me. Now that it's set in my mind what I'm going to do, I feel much better about it. I read in one of the interviews with Mark Rippetoe and Glenn Pendlay, I think Mark was saying that for someone who hasn't really tried this method before with so much volume in the compound lifts per week, they should start out a few weeks before the "real" program with lighter 5x5's so that they work up to their maxes in the 3rd week of the linear program. I believe this is almost exactly what you were suggesting a few posts ago. Looking at the estimates provided by the Excel spreadsheet of the Linear Version,
91
113
136
159
181
are the weights for the first week's monday workout. So, for example, if I would like to start easing into it 3 weeks in advance, should I simply subtract about 10-15% from each of these numbers per week and use those as my 5x5 sets so that I hit week 1, do these listed weights, and then progress up until week 3 where I should hit my 5-rep maxes?
Also, I'm curious as to what you would classify the workout I have been doing for a while now. I listed the set/rep schemes a few posts before this. Thanks.
The spreadsheet assumes building up to current maxes over 3 weeks, hitting the current max in week 4 and then in PR range 5 and after. This is how it's layed out and the essense of progressive overload. If getting results was always as easy as going in and doing your best lift and getting immediately better for it, that would be a nice world and the gym would be filled with huge casual trainers that do nothing more than show up and do some stuff.
Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n
I understand that MC2, I'm just wondering if I want to follow your previous advice of slowly easing into the program, should I start out 3 weeks before hand by subtracting 10-15% from the first weeks suggested weights per week and then doing 5x5 for 3 "practice" weeks. At that point I would start week 1(really week 4) of the excel spreadsheet and hopefully hit my 5-rep maxes during week 4 (week 7)? Because I previously posted that workout I would like to do in order to get ready for the 5x5, but yo usuggested it would be better instead to do a few practice weeks of the SF 5x5 with lighter weights. I'm just wondering how to go about it. I'm sure once I get into the program a lot of things will become much more clear.
I understand that MC2, I'm just wondering if I want to follow your previous advice of slowly easing into the program, should I start out 3 weeks before hand by subtracting 10-15% from the first weeks suggested weights per week and then doing 5x5 for 3 "practice" weeks. At that point I would start week 1(really week 4) of the excel spreadsheet and hopefully hit my 5-rep maxes during week 4 (week 7)? Because I previously posted that workout I would like to do in order to get ready for the 5x5, but yo usuggested it would be better instead to do a few practice weeks of the SF 5x5 with lighter weights. I'm just wondering how to go about it. I'm sure once I get into the program a lot of things will become much more clear.
blut wump
New member
From what I've seen of your workouts here, just get started. If you plot back to start week 1 such that you are hitting current PR weights in week 4 and then plot back another three weeks, you'll be lifting merely warmup weights for three weeks.
If you are currently healthy, just begin.
If you are currently healthy, just begin.
Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n
Thanks Blut Wump. Now that I think about it, that seems to make the most sense. By following MC2's advice to try and hit maxes in week 4 and set pr's in weeks 5 and beyond, that's already 3 weeks or so of "warmup weights," no?
Thanks Blut Wump. Now that I think about it, that seems to make the most sense. By following MC2's advice to try and hit maxes in week 4 and set pr's in weeks 5 and beyond, that's already 3 weeks or so of "warmup weights," no?
blut wump
New member
You could look at the first three weeks that way but it's not really accurate. Think of it more as three weeks of ramping to get back to your PR weights in the same way that you have ramping sets within a workout to hit your top set. In the process, your body will acclimatize to the weights and you'll get some momentum which should carry you through your old PRs and on into fresh territory afterwards.
I know that sounds like a bit of nonsense in saying that you get 'momentum' but it's a reasonable analogy and it seems to work like that for almost everyone.
I know that sounds like a bit of nonsense in saying that you get 'momentum' but it's a reasonable analogy and it seems to work like that for almost everyone.
I was thinking about starting the Bill Starr 5x5 Linear Version/Single Factor. One thing I am not sure about. The program suggests hypers as one of the assistance excercises on mondays. I suppose that the purpose of hypers are to make my lower back stronger. Though, both a PL coach, my naprapat and a masseuse that I once saw has told me that my lower back are very big and very strong. Therefore, I figure, maybe it is waste of time to do hypers - the program contain deadlifts, and I have been doing deadlifts once a week for almost a year now. And I've never been doing hypers. Actually, I figure it would be better used time if i replaced the hypers with an excercise for biceps femoris. My suggestion would be 1) leg curls, or 2) leg curls alternated with SLDL:s every other week. For myself, I think that this is a good choice. I find support for my idea in the 5x5 texts that emphasize the importance of a training program being adapted to the specific trainee. But I am not all certain of my opinion; it is several times said in the texts that "everybody who tries this for the first time want to change excercises, but that's just because they don't understand better".
I know all this sound a bit silly, but actually I am just out for some one with experience of this program (maybe even madcow2?) either grants my idea, or rejects it - and if I get a reject, I would love an explanation of why.
Regards,
David
EDIT: Pardon my rotten english, I am from Europe.
I know all this sound a bit silly, but actually I am just out for some one with experience of this program (maybe even madcow2?) either grants my idea, or rejects it - and if I get a reject, I would love an explanation of why.
Regards,
David
EDIT: Pardon my rotten english, I am from Europe.
A
Anthrax Invasion
Guest
That will work fine, give it a shot. Leg curls are a great assistance exercise to assure you don't neglect the hamstring development. Go for it.
A
Anthrax Invasion
Guest
Honestly, everyone here is going to tell you to just leave it as it is, and I'd be inclined to agree. However, the calves really don't respond well unless you train them directly, or you go run some intervals. If you can handle the work load, by all means do it. Heel raises aren't draining on the body.
G'day everyone,
I am coming off a shoulder reconstruction and have been unable to train for the past 6 months. I am now categorising myself as a beginner and just recently I stumbled across this website and Bil Starr's 5x5 approach. However, I've noticed there isn't a program for beginners and by no means am I ready to undertake the intermediate program this soon after hitting the iron again.
Just a couple of questions for you all.
1) Does anyone know of any good, basic beginner programs that can act as a segway into the intermediate program?
2) I've noticed that on the intermediate program you are to squat 3x per week and deadlift 1x per week. Is there a reason for this? Would it be fine to switch them and deadlift 3x per week and squat 1x per week?
Thanks in advance.
PS: Kudos to Madcow for storing all the info on the geocities site. Great resource for newbies!
I am coming off a shoulder reconstruction and have been unable to train for the past 6 months. I am now categorising myself as a beginner and just recently I stumbled across this website and Bil Starr's 5x5 approach. However, I've noticed there isn't a program for beginners and by no means am I ready to undertake the intermediate program this soon after hitting the iron again.
Just a couple of questions for you all.
1) Does anyone know of any good, basic beginner programs that can act as a segway into the intermediate program?
2) I've noticed that on the intermediate program you are to squat 3x per week and deadlift 1x per week. Is there a reason for this? Would it be fine to switch them and deadlift 3x per week and squat 1x per week?
Thanks in advance.
PS: Kudos to Madcow for storing all the info on the geocities site. Great resource for newbies!
silver_shadow
New member
the intermediate version is the same for beginners.
i'm guessing the squats outnumber the DLs and not the other way around because of the greater CNS drain from the latter.
i'm guessing the squats outnumber the DLs and not the other way around because of the greater CNS drain from the latter.
Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n
So should I proceed straight into the intermediate program? I'm just a little confused because on one of the earlier posts in this thread (can't find it at the moment) states that it is advisable to cut the volume if you are a beginner.
Re: Deads and greater strain on CNS... Is this proven? Just curious as to why this would be the case? Deadlift involve more of the human musculature then the squat?
Hmmmmmmm... So much to learn!
silver_shadow said:
So should I proceed straight into the intermediate program? I'm just a little confused because on one of the earlier posts in this thread (can't find it at the moment) states that it is advisable to cut the volume if you are a beginner.
Re: Deads and greater strain on CNS... Is this proven? Just curious as to why this would be the case? Deadlift involve more of the human musculature then the squat?
Hmmmmmmm... So much to learn!
WannaBeBig72
New member
Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n
I think what Madcow means by beginner is someone with no prior lifting experience whatsoever (someone with no knowledge of any of the lifts). Maybe the squats 3 times per week is because squats is solely a lower body exercise and puts more strain on the lower body then deads. And your lower body is well half your body so that's the point of working it 3 times a week (the upper body is worked 3 times a week as well). And deads work both upper and lower.
Yips said:So should I proceed straight into the intermediate program? I'm just a little confused because on one of the earlier posts in this thread (can't find it at the moment) states that it is advisable to cut the volume if you are a beginner.
Re: Deads and greater strain on CNS... Is this proven? Just curious as to why this would be the case? Deadlift involve more of the human musculature then the squat?
Hmmmmmmm... So much to learn!
I think what Madcow means by beginner is someone with no prior lifting experience whatsoever (someone with no knowledge of any of the lifts). Maybe the squats 3 times per week is because squats is solely a lower body exercise and puts more strain on the lower body then deads. And your lower body is well half your body so that's the point of working it 3 times a week (the upper body is worked 3 times a week as well). And deads work both upper and lower.
Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n
Well I have prior lifting experience (1.5 years) and know how to perform all the major compound movements that are involved in this program. I guess that means im not a beginner then, though, if I do jump straight into the intermediate program I'll have to start with some minor weights.
I might try and search through the 50-odd pages and see if anyone has asked similar questions regarding beginner programs.
Thanks for your help.
WannaBeBig72 said:
Well I have prior lifting experience (1.5 years) and know how to perform all the major compound movements that are involved in this program. I guess that means im not a beginner then, though, if I do jump straight into the intermediate program I'll have to start with some minor weights.
I might try and search through the 50-odd pages and see if anyone has asked similar questions regarding beginner programs.
Thanks for your help.
kethnaab
New member
Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n
well, Mark Rippetoe has what amounts to the "beginner's version" of the Bill Starr 5x5.
check www.startingstrength.com for some more info.
as for the deadlifts, when you think about it, it is, basically, a squat done with a significant mechanical advantage. That, plus the fact that you are pulling it from the floor, are why it is recommended that volume be lower. There is a very good reason Westside rarely does the deadlift, specifically, and prefers to use assistance to get the pull up.
well, Mark Rippetoe has what amounts to the "beginner's version" of the Bill Starr 5x5.
check www.startingstrength.com for some more info.
as for the deadlifts, when you think about it, it is, basically, a squat done with a significant mechanical advantage. That, plus the fact that you are pulling it from the floor, are why it is recommended that volume be lower. There is a very good reason Westside rarely does the deadlift, specifically, and prefers to use assistance to get the pull up.
blut wump
New member
Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n
If you think about the muscles involved and the manner in which they are invloved then a combination of squatting, rowing, benching, overhead pressing and deadlifting works the whole body.
I reckon that squats work pretty much everythng except the front delts and chest. There's good reason why it's known as "The King of Exercises". Deadlifts work pretty much the same muscles but the emphasis from active to stabiliser between the muscles is moved around. Almost everyone finds heavy deadlifts much more taxing than heavy squats and, correspondingly, harder to recover from. The program is built around the squats in a Heavy-Light-Medium manner. If your squat weight is climbing then you are getting stronger.WannaBeBig72 said:
If you think about the muscles involved and the manner in which they are invloved then a combination of squatting, rowing, benching, overhead pressing and deadlifting works the whole body.
C
curgeo
Guest
Hey Cow!
You want to accept an email or a private message from an old friend?
It's been a while and I want to catch up (I have to brag about my new son.)
You want to accept an email or a private message from an old friend?
It's been a while and I want to catch up (I have to brag about my new son.)
needtogetaas
New member
wtf blut youre on
C
curgeo
Guest
Nobody knows how to get a hold of him? Man things change when you haven't been around for a half of a year or so.
Cow, if you read this, shoot me an email when given the chance.
Cow, if you read this, shoot me an email when given the chance.
Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n
Yeah, I have heard good things about this book. Might look into purchasing it. Have you got this book? Is it worth purchasing?
What assistance exercises do westside perform to get the deadlift numbers up? Lockout, SLDL, RDL, Quarter deadlifts etc? Just curious.
Thanks for you feedback.
kethnaab said:
Yeah, I have heard good things about this book. Might look into purchasing it. Have you got this book? Is it worth purchasing?
What assistance exercises do westside perform to get the deadlift numbers up? Lockout, SLDL, RDL, Quarter deadlifts etc? Just curious.
Thanks for you feedback.
Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n
Thanks for the clarification.
I knew the program was built around the squats but wasn't aware it was in a heavy-medium-light fashion. Is this just to avoid overtraining? I suppose squatting heavy 3x per week would take its toll on the CNS.
I haven't looked at the program in depth but from what I have read so far it appears to be pretty basic but would be very effective if utilised in a progressive manner.
blut wump said:
Thanks for the clarification.
I knew the program was built around the squats but wasn't aware it was in a heavy-medium-light fashion. Is this just to avoid overtraining? I suppose squatting heavy 3x per week would take its toll on the CNS.
I haven't looked at the program in depth but from what I have read so far it appears to be pretty basic but would be very effective if utilised in a progressive manner.
anotherbutters
New member
Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n
Yes and yes. It goes into great detail on the squat, bench, dead, clean and press forms. Everyone seems to have picked something up from it, no matter how experienced.Yips said:
anotherbutters
New member
Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n
Only the clean, but don't let that put you off what is an excellent book for the main strength lifts. I've had Dreschler recommended to me for the oly lifts, but I don't have a copy myself yet.
Only the clean, but don't let that put you off what is an excellent book for the main strength lifts. I've had Dreschler recommended to me for the oly lifts, but I don't have a copy myself yet.
I have a couple of questions that may have been answered but damn, 60 pages!
I've been training for 2.5 yrs so went to the intermediate program....
Am I right that this routine never does a 5 x 5 with a flat weight? Its always ramping? And likewise, never a 1 x 5. I also can't see any info with regards to Week 5 onwards, or do we just do the same as the others, i.e ramping weights but just drop to reps of 3?????
I've been training for 2.5 yrs so went to the intermediate program....
Am I right that this routine never does a 5 x 5 with a flat weight? Its always ramping? And likewise, never a 1 x 5. I also can't see any info with regards to Week 5 onwards, or do we just do the same as the others, i.e ramping weights but just drop to reps of 3?????
anotherbutters
New member
Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n
Correct, there's no flat 5x5 in the intermediate. They're all ramped, which is referred to as 1x5 in the description. You just carry on for as long as you can, adding a small amount to the bar every week.
3 reps at a heavier weight every Friday and 5 reps with that weight every Monday.
Correct, there's no flat 5x5 in the intermediate. They're all ramped, which is referred to as 1x5 in the description. You just carry on for as long as you can, adding a small amount to the bar every week.
3 reps at a heavier weight every Friday and 5 reps with that weight every Monday.
blut wump
New member
Anothercowbutt is spot on.
There's nothing special about week 5 and onwards in the Intermediate version of the program. You keep running it until it stalls and then make minor tweaks to try to keep it going even longer. You should be able to run it for, maybe, three months before needing to make changes. If you're lucky it'll go for longer.
There's nothing special about week 5 and onwards in the Intermediate version of the program. You keep running it until it stalls and then make minor tweaks to try to keep it going even longer. You should be able to run it for, maybe, three months before needing to make changes. If you're lucky it'll go for longer.
silver_shadow
New member
eh?blut wump said:
here's another good one: bloat wimp
I'm a little concerned. I am doing the intermediate workout. I'm basically only doing 2 sets of 5 for shoulders every week that require a decent effort. Then on the other end of the spectrum, I'm squatting 3 times a week. My legs are no where near recovered from Mondays workout, yet this is telling me to get back in there and train them again today? I really don't see how, from a bodybuilding perspective, this can be a decent routine? I can see myself with decent legs and back, but with terrible arms and shoulders. Does anyone have any comments or share the same thoughts?
anotherbutters
New member
Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n
Don't think of squats as purely a leg exercise. Squats will load most of the muscles in the body, so they help drive growth overall. That's why the program's based around them and why you squat so frequently. Also, you don't squat with an all out effort every session. There are heavy, light and medium days.
For the overhead press, just focus on adding a little bit to the bar every week. When I did my first run of the SF 5x5 last year, my OHP went from 34kg to 46kg (75lb -> 101lb) in 10 weeks. I too, never really felt much of an effort in the first 3 sets.
Your arms get indirect work from bench press, OHP, rows, deads and chins, plus any accessory work at the end of the week that you care to throw in (just 3x8). They'll grow to support the weight you're pulling with your back or pushing with your chest and shoulders. There's no way your arms won't grow whilst following this, assuming the program is matched to your current level of development.
Finally, if your legs don't feel fully recovered after Monday's squats, I assume you're sore because you've only just started the program. The first few weeks ought to be light as you ramp up the weights, so you shouldn't be that sore to start with. And after the first 2-3 weeks, you'll become conditioned to the frequency of squatting and you won't have any soreness at all.
When did you start the program and how heavy did you go in week 1 compared to what you're capable of? Give us some context - how old are you, what do you weigh, what do you squat, etc.
Don't think of squats as purely a leg exercise. Squats will load most of the muscles in the body, so they help drive growth overall. That's why the program's based around them and why you squat so frequently. Also, you don't squat with an all out effort every session. There are heavy, light and medium days.
For the overhead press, just focus on adding a little bit to the bar every week. When I did my first run of the SF 5x5 last year, my OHP went from 34kg to 46kg (75lb -> 101lb) in 10 weeks. I too, never really felt much of an effort in the first 3 sets.
Your arms get indirect work from bench press, OHP, rows, deads and chins, plus any accessory work at the end of the week that you care to throw in (just 3x8). They'll grow to support the weight you're pulling with your back or pushing with your chest and shoulders. There's no way your arms won't grow whilst following this, assuming the program is matched to your current level of development.
Finally, if your legs don't feel fully recovered after Monday's squats, I assume you're sore because you've only just started the program. The first few weeks ought to be light as you ramp up the weights, so you shouldn't be that sore to start with. And after the first 2-3 weeks, you'll become conditioned to the frequency of squatting and you won't have any soreness at all.
When did you start the program and how heavy did you go in week 1 compared to what you're capable of? Give us some context - how old are you, what do you weigh, what do you squat, etc.
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