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Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up now!

You must spread some Karma around before giving it to anotherbutters again.

Great reply, AB.

He's exactly right, but I'll address a couple other issues.

bakks said:
I really don't see how, from a bodybuilding perspective, this can be a decent routine?

Directly, many people experience muscle growth on this program, if they eat right. Indirectly, improving your max strength levels means you'll be able to move more weight in the typical "hypertrophy" rep ranges. There's a reason you do sets of 5, rather than sets of 2 or sets of 10--five is a nice blend of tension, motor unit recruitment, and fatigue. Any good bodybuilding "plan" should involve periods of strength training and periods of pure hypertrophy. At the very least, the 5x5 can serve as your strength building phase.

bakks said:
I can see myself with decent legs and back, but with terrible arms and shoulders.

This tells me you're not very far along on the "bodybuilding" road. I've never met a bodybuilder w/ a few years of training that has had "terrible arms and shoulders." So, i assume you're just starting out. Which means you probably just need development overall, period. On the 5x5, you're hitting your shoulders heavily w/ flat benching & overhead pressing. And getting stronger at that military on Wednesday means you can come back later and rep out w/ heavier weights than before. That = hypertrophy. As for arms, getting stronger on the core movements (bench, row, chins) WILL make your arms stronger. I dropped BB curls during the 5x5 and was surprised to find that my curl weight had gone up by a good 10-15 pounds afterwards. Additionally, you'll have curls & skullcrushers or w/e on at least one day as assistance work. So, they'll be fine. Don't worry about 'hyooge gunz' if they're attached to a stick.
 
bakks - I have just completed a cycle of 5x5 and your arms and shoulders get plenty of work mate. I didn't even bother with any of isolation work.
 
Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n

anotherbutters said:
Don't think of squats as purely a leg exercise. Squats will load most of the muscles in the body, so they help drive growth overall. That's why the program's based around them and why you squat so frequently. Also, you don't squat with an all out effort every session. There are heavy, light and medium days.

For the overhead press, just focus on adding a little bit to the bar every week. When I did my first run of the SF 5x5 last year, my OHP went from 34kg to 46kg (75lb -> 101lb) in 10 weeks. I too, never really felt much of an effort in the first 3 sets.

Your arms get indirect work from bench press, OHP, rows, deads and chins, plus any accessory work at the end of the week that you care to throw in (just 3x8). They'll grow to support the weight you're pulling with your back or pushing with your chest and shoulders. There's no way your arms won't grow whilst following this, assuming the program is matched to your current level of development.

Finally, if your legs don't feel fully recovered after Monday's squats, I assume you're sore because you've only just started the program. The first few weeks ought to be light as you ramp up the weights, so you shouldn't be that sore to start with. And after the first 2-3 weeks, you'll become conditioned to the frequency of squatting and you won't have any soreness at all.

When did you start the program and how heavy did you go in week 1 compared to what you're capable of? Give us some context - how old are you, what do you weigh, what do you squat, etc.

Hey mate thanks for your comments.

I've been training for nearly 3 yrs. By the terrible arms and shoulders comments I mean relative (to legs), not overall ;)

I think I've got it sussed now, with the weights. I decided to use the advanced program - I think it will work better for me. I just needed some extra assurance from people who had actually completed the program. Cheers.

With lifts I've started off benching and squatting low 90 kg's, rowing a bit over 70, and deadlifting about 115, without too much difficulty. Hope I can get them to above 100, 130 and 80/90 odd respectively. Nothing huge but slowly slowly!
 
Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n

By its very nature, the advanced program is for advanced lifters. The idea is that when the linear progression stops working for you, you will need to move to the dual factor periodization with rest built into the system. It is the only way you will continue to make gains, albeit at a slower pace, and strength gains in the core lifts are the object of the entire program. You would really only want to move to the dual factor version when you absolutely have to since at that point your gains would come at a slower, more hard-fought pace.

Anyway, madcow addresses this stuff is in this thread and on his website. Although I understand this thread is daunting in its size. For me, anotherbutters summed it up very well in this post:

link
 
What you eventually find is that simply going into the gym each week and trying to put a little more weight on the bar than the previous week just doesn't work any more or, at least, stops being an efficient way to progress as you fail week after week. Only then do you need to start with periodized workout programs.

If you've not read this article on planned overtraining, I strongly recommend it:
http://www.higher-faster-sports.com/PlannedOvertraining.html
 
Jeez, after only 3 or 4 weeks, my pec's are the best they've ever been, and bench has gone from an easyish 90 to a moderate 105 kg :)

Edit - 5 weeks actually. Chest has been the biggest improver, weight has gone from 82 to 85-86, looking leaner than before.
 
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Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n

Bakks said:
Jeez, after only 3 or 4 weeks, my pec's are the best they've ever been, and bench has gone from an easyish 90 to a moderate 105 kg :)

I am finishing week 6 on this regimine. In that time my chest size has increased from 40" to 45" and my biceps from 13" to 14.5".

So I guess you could say I am rediculously pleased with the results so far. :P
 
Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n

Madcow2, maybe a stupid question..but can I do front squats instead of squats?
My back doesn´t allow me to do normal squat.. It is the only exercise that I can´t do. I have tried to find a way to do normal squat for a long time(years), but nothing has worked.
Sorry my bad english.. I am from Finland.
 
Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n

hovinarri said:
Madcow2, maybe a stupid question..but can I do front squats instead of squats?
My back doesn´t allow me to do normal squat.. It is the only exercise that I can´t do. I have tried to find a way to do normal squat for a long time(years), but nothing has worked.
Sorry my bad english.. I am from Finland.

Madcow actually died in a car accident. :(
 
Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n

anotherbutters said:
AI, there's no need for that.

Abducted by aliens?
 
Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n

Saying madcow died in a car accident is very different from having a pop at someone because of their beliefs on training or diet. You've always been helpful to me and I thank you for that. Some of your other posts can be amusing, although I too tire from them at times.

But the above post crosses the line, for me at least. I can't imagine anyone finding it even remotely amusing. madcow was highly respected and people miss him posting here. Sorry bro, but there's just no need for a comment like that.
 
Oh well. He's still alive, so to me, doesn't make a bit of a difference. :FRlol:
 
anyway, to answer the question, i don't see a problem in front squating as opposed to back squatting. though having said that, have you considered working on your form? back squat light weights for a few weeks and perfect your form. then slowly increase the weights. there are lots of good resources out there on good squat form. i think there is a sticky on the powerlifting forum which describes squat execution.
 
Power Shrugs,

Since everybody think best of this exercise, I was wondering if it can be Incorporatied into the Intermediate/Linear version of 5x5 program?
Twice a week, maybe on Monday and Wednesday(Since Friday already has a lot of volume)..

Would that be totally messing with the program, as per madcow, that we shouldn't, or just alright as long as the core exercises are met?
 
This comes up at least once a month, although it's been awhile . . . Lol

Consensus, from MC2 (RIP), is adding in power shrugs is fine so long as you don't really push them like a core lift and be sure to watch your recovery, etc. Basically, they shouldn't interfere w/ the core of the program. If you divert resources toward the shrugs, be aware that you're taking that energy from something else. so, you can probably add in a set or two of 10-12 reps a few times a week and be OK. But if it starts to get too much or you start pushing them too hard, you'll screw up the program.
 
We all hope and expect that he'll pop back at some time.

On the power shrugs, I've tried two or three times to include them on runs of the dual factor. By week 3, I've found that I just don't have the energy for them. Your own mileage may vary.
 
It seems like my OHP is stalling. I'll do a 20-lb reset but I don't expect it to budge much.
For the Wednesday SF workout, is it effective to change OHP to push press, espcially if I'm following up with power shrugs? I really need more shoulder & trap development.
 
Push press should be fine. It's a good sub for the strict OHP. I've never done PP and powershrugs together but I can't see any problems with the combination
 
Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n

Madcow2 said:
.........yes a variation of Barbell rows. You can do this version or............. The JS version is without doubt better but some people aren't willing to experiment with rowing from the floor and utilizing the erectors.
Hi All,

I searched for quite a while, but I am unable to find a recommendation for 'Grip' when doing the JS Row. I know an overhand vs. underhand grip (among other things like a wide or standard width grip) can target muscles in different ways.

Is there a recommended grip for the JS Row or for any of the other exercises in the Madcow2 variation of Bill Starr's 5x5?

I am an experienced lifter and it would not be a problem to determine this for myself, but I thought for once I would try "exactly" what is recommended instead of tweaking it right off the bat.

Thanks in advance for your help.
 
All that's really recommended for the barbell rows is to make the effort to keep your back down parallel to the ground; to deload the weight on the floor and to accelerate it briskly on the way up. Everything is pretty much up to you. I think most people here use an overhand grip and I find it more comfortable to go narrower but that's just personal preferences.

Pull heavy, hard and fast and rest the weight on the floor between reps. Aside from that keep adding weight and find a position comfortable to you.

Squats are recommended as medium to narrow stance and go down as deep as you possibly can. In later runs you can make substitutions for various types of squats but I'd recommend sticking with the plan on your first run.
 
Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n

I think I'm one of the few that prefer the underhand grip. I chin underhanded as well.
 
blut wump said:
All that's really recommended for the barbell rows is............ Everything is pretty much up to you. I think most people here use an overhand grip...........

Squats are recommended as medium to narrow stance and go down as deep as you possibly can. In later runs you can make substitutions for various types of squats but I'd recommend sticking with the plan on your first run.
Thanks for the clarification. I figured overhand or underhand would be fine as long as the form was strict. Guess the first time through will be like any workout I have ever designed for myself. (Do it the way it's written, and if you get results, keep goin.)

I'll start with the intermediate version and go from there. I can't wait to try it, but I read somewhere that you don't get the "pump" like a BB workout. I will just have to learn to deal with that I guess. (But I would much rather be a strong, ripped, "smaller" guy, than a wimpy, ripped, huge guy.) :supercool

Thanks again.
 
Hey guys ... im almost recovered from last run, if you remember i started dual factor ritgh from the bat and fucked up my ligaments, now almost 3 months later ill start again but with linear version and with very very light squatting.

Anyway i came up with few questions ... in linear version i'll go until lifts wont grow anymore ? meaning i dont need to take rests like in df after 4 and 9 weeks but go 'til major of the lifts stall right ? but does it insure that i wont overtrain ?

ouh one q more ... mc2 said that in original version instead of rows there were power shrugs ... does it make sens to do power shrugs for one run to grow my traps or are they already covered deadlift ?

Thanks
 
Czar87 said:
Hey guys ... im almost recovered from last run, if you remember i started dual factor ritgh from the bat and fucked up my ligaments, now almost 3 months later ill start again but with linear version and with very very light squatting.

I'd suggest taking a look at our training sticky above, and reading up on Rippetoe's routine. There's a link there and it would be a GREAT plan for you at this point.

in linear version i'll go until lifts wont grow anymore ? meaning i dont need to take rests like in df after 4 and 9 weeks but go 'til major of the lifts stall right ?

Yes.

but does it insure that i wont overtrain ?

Generally, yes. For most people w/ average recovery abilities, the linear version shouldn't be so intense that it wipes you out. It's got heavy, medium, and light days and the volume isn't so massive that it overwhelms you. That's "generally" speaking. If your recovery is terrible, or if you dont eat enough/right and don't sleep enough, then you'll get buried. But in gen'l, you should be fine.

mc2 said that in original version instead of rows there were power shrugs ... does it make sens to do power shrugs for one run to grow my traps or are they already covered deadlift ?

Deads will hit your traps fine. I'd just do the program exactly as written, especially your first time through. later on, as you gain experience, you can decide whether you want to do shrugs rather than rows. Right now, let deads hit your traps and keep the rows, IMO.
 
Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n

The single factor version contains a moderate amount of overall load because that's all that's needed for an intermediate lifter to make progress. That means you don't accumulate a lot of fatigue that needs recovering from, so you don't need to 'rest' after 4 weeks. You keep going until your lifts stall, then reset a few weeks and ramp up again.

The dual factor version contains a lot more load because that's what's required for someone who's already made a lot of progress to make even more progress. There's so much load that you build up a lot of fatigue that you need to rest from, hence the deload after 4 weeks.

The original version (whatever that was) contained powercleans, not powershrugs. You could do powercleans on one run, then when you reset after stalling, you could switch to rows. Either way, stick with one of them throughout the run.
 
I did 3 runs of the DF and SF feels better. and yeah the single factor doesn't wear you out, just keep going indefinitely.

i added in powercleans after 4 weeks b/c i wanted more trap work; originally it was just squat/incline/dl but i used squat/ohp/dl and now squat/ohp/dl with 3sets 8-10reps powershrug (at wk 4) as an aftermarket "assistance" exercise but it's given me an anabolic boost all over, bench and OHP are a little easier and I might even be able to catch up the OHP to where it "should" have been.
WARNING: I felt macho and added pullups 2 days ago and today my back feels like I badly lost a fight. Now my rows may suffer.
The moral is that extras will detract from your main goals and dont f*ck with the program especially starting out.
 
Hi All,

Just for clarification...... Sorry if this has already been answered, but I could not find it.

Should the assistance exercises increase in weight between each set?

For example, is it better to do 3 Sets of Weighted Dips x 5-8 reps with the same weight for each set and increase the weight when you can complete 3 strict sets of 8 reps? (ie. 3x8 with 50lbs)

OR.....Increase the weight between each set based on your PR and then increase the starting weight when you can complete 3 strict sets of 8 reps? (ie. 3x8 50lb, 55lb, 60lb)

Either way is fine for me because my previous routines incorporated both methods. I figured I would do my assistance exercises with the same weight for each set and then increase when I can complete 3 strict sets of max reps.

I am assuming increasing weight between each set on assistance exercises could be detrimental to the core exercise progress.

Thanks in advance
 
I asked this on another thread and i got the reply that it doesn't really mater if you add between sets or week to week. just do 1 or the outher
 
Alrighty, one last quick question about "Assistance exercises" in the intermediate program before I dive in next week......

Let me know if you think this is too much. (Note: Calves are my weakest [hardest to develop] bodypart (I don't have a seated calf raise at the moment but am working on building one.) Also, I like to try and make sure my hamstrings stay up with my quads.)

Monday assistance:
3 Sets of Straight Leg Deadlift x 8
4 Sets of Incline Situps

Wednesday assistance:
4 sets of Leg Curls x 5-8 reps (Increasing weight)
4 Sets of Standing Calf Raises x 15
Superset 3 Sets of Leg Raises + 3 Sets of Situps

Friday assistance:
3 Sets of Weighted Dips x 5-8 reps
3 Sets of Standing Calf Raises x 8
4 Sets of Incline Situps

Thanks again.....
 
Keep all the situps, drop everything else until you're better acquainted with a completed run under your belt.

The only way you could have energy for even a quarter of that extra work is if you weren't working hard enough on the core lifts. Put your energy and recuperation into the core lifts of the program and let them produce results. If you fritter away your recovery ability on the extra stuff then your core lifts will suffer and the program will be broken.

Sorry but bodies are bodies and you can't expect to be pushing yourself hard on the program and also burning energy on that extra work. If calves are really a problem for you then some extra sets on a Friday might not take too much from your squats but I'd really suggest that attacking your calves after you've fully settled into the program would be better. Give yourself a month to get back into PR territory and then decide whether you have spare energy to burn.
 
blut wump said:
.....I'd really suggest that attacking your calves after you've fully settled into the program would be better. Give yourself a month to get back into PR territory and then decide whether you have spare energy to burn.
Thanks for the advice. Guess I have been doin BB programs for too long. I actually like the idea of just starting with abs as assistance and then adding 1 or 2 things after I am comfortable with the routine.

PLUS.....Dang, I forgot how taxing deadlifts are, and I have always gone lower than "normal" on squats, but never done any truely "deep" squats. WOW, I am just now realizing how intense this program is gonna be. CAN'T WAIT! Let the pain for gain begin. :eek2: MWAAHAHAHA....owie :supercool
 
Sorry, man. That's the other odd thing about this program. Because you're working the muscles three times per week they never really hurt. You'll maybe get some ache the first week if you've had a layoff but otherwise just expect some fatigue. Your body and muscle groups remain conditioned 24/7 and that deep muscle soreness will become just a memory and something that other people complain of.

Don't be tempted to start blasting away to failure and going for the burn. You'll lessen your progress and start to hurt again. :)
 
blut wump said:
.....that deep muscle soreness will become just a memory and something that other people complain of.
Sounds like I've got a lot to learn about Non BB workouts. :cool: And just when I thought I knew everything. Dangit. :laugh2: hehehehe. I can't remember what I was looking for when I stumbled across this msg board, but I sure am glad I found it!
 
Hi Friends....

want to start it and also think about adding two session of cardio on tuesday's and saturday's...

It would be intervall session, appr. 20minutes, 60sec walk, 45sec sprints....

Primarily my target is to gain strenght and athletic, mass is not necessary for me...... Would these two cardio units be counterproductive for the 5x5 programm.... ?


thanks for your comments
Regards
Svetislav aka Waczlaff :)
 
Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n

Svetislav_aka_Waczlaff said:
Hi Friends....

want to start it and also think about adding two session of cardio on tuesday's and saturday's...

It would be intervall session, appr. 20minutes, 60sec walk, 45sec sprints....

Primarily my target is to gain strenght and athletic, mass is not necessary for me...... Would these two cardio units be counterproductive for the 5x5 programm.... ?


thanks for your comments
Regards
Svetislav aka Waczlaff :)

I do cardio, stepmill too, i do it Tues/Thurs/sometimes SAT.

Eat right Eat Good, your body will be able to handle it, especially in weeks 1-4. Weeks 5-9 u might cut back.
 
If you're intending the Single-Factor version then likely no worries. On the Dual-Factor version, assuming you push yourself adequately on the weights during weeks 3 and 4 then the extra work is likely to be detrimental.

Either way, keep an eye on how it's eating into your recovery.
 
prefer to start with dual-factor because I have lots of experience with compounds exercises but not not with well planned training programs like this one....

but don't you think one would get more trouble with additional cardio in the first 4 weeks of 5x5 as in the last 4 with 3x3 because the lower volume ?

greets,
Svetislav aka Waczlaff ;)
 
I think that's pretty much what I wrote.

During the first couple of weeks during a DF run of the 5x5, the extra cardio isn't likely to be an issue. During weeks 3 and 4, when you are hitting or surpassing your old maxes, you will be wracked with fatigue. The extra cardio during those weeks is likely to be unsustainable. During week 5, leading into week 6, you might have energy spare but those are meant to be recovery weeks from the earlier volume. Week 7 should be fine. Weeks 8 and 9 tend to be hard work again and the high intensity cardio could push you over the edge into a reload.

Like I wrote, you can add it in but keep a close eye on your fatigue levels. Since this is your first run at the 5x5, I'd recommend leaving it out until you've experienced it once.
 
FYI for anyone else following the linear 5x5 program, the main page was updated on May 16th with "Impact of Weight Gain/Loss and Experience Level"... effects of gaining/cutting and how to modify your personal program to compensate.
 
Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n

I wrote a few of these that haven't made it in here yet. None of this is probably new for anyone here but some are pretty comprehensive so maybe it's a good read or people get use out of them:


STRENGTH AND HYPERTROPHY - NOT SO DIFFERENT​

How do you think people get bigger exactly? A bigger muscle is a stronger muscle - what do you think your body is adapting to when it adds muscle as a result of exercise? Why is resistance at a fairly high percentage of your maximal effort necessary for hypertrophy? I mean, you don't get too big walking around and bodyweight exercises seem to cap out after a while.

Things that make you go hmmm. I'm not saying a bigger person will outlift or be stronger than a smaller person (physics/leverage/neural components weigh in on this), but I'm saying that when you get bigger you will have gotten stronger. No one added significant muscle that didn't add weight to the bar or just do a ton more work. You are stressing the muscular system here and the adaptation of hypertrophy is a method the body uses to cope and improve to be able to better tolerate the stress.

I would hope it's hitting you like a bolt of lightning now and that you aren't lost. If you are lost reread the above.

Now what's necessary for hypertrophy vs. just pure strength. Well, obviously there is some type of intensity (% of 1 rep max or weight on the bar) involved in both. People say that 8-12 reps is for hypertrophy but 1-3 reps is for strength, why? I mean, intensity (%1RM) is linearly related to potential for microtrauma right? Why do you need to do more reps and why isn't a heavy weight better. Well, a heavy weight is better. The problem is, is that you can't do a whole lot of work with it and get a reasonable amount of microtrauma for hypertrophy - hence, it mainly stresses the neural components more than the muscular.

So in fact, a rep is a rep, it's finding that happy medium between intensity (%1RM) and the number of reps performed. Hey wait - why do we do sets if we can just do 25 reps with some weight and be done. Well, because the weight you can do for 25 reps has to be low intensity to get 25 back to back (hence, less microtrauma). So we cluster reps into sets to keep the intensity high and still get a given number of reps done. This is why you can break the rule with 3 rep sets being for strength only if you lower the intensity (%1rm) to where you can do 8-10 sets and get 24-30 reps. You'd probably get more total workload too (reps X sets X weight used) as the time density is lower with additional clustering/rest. There are few absolutes. Microtrauma is also why static holds with very heavy weight tend to not work so well, you need to move a weight over a range of motion and leverages to get the microtrauma.

Also, let's not forget the neural components that have nothing to do with hypertrophy . Hypertrophy over a period is strategically induced microtrauma through progressive loads (i.e. increased workload by raising weight/more work with same weight/combination). Enhanced neural capability leverages your ability to do this and the resulting hypertrophy gains. Better neural = better potential hypertrophy. Don't believe me, think about the much loved "newbie gains" where everything works. What is this phenomenon - muscle is muscle? Well the main driver is rapidly developing neural adaptation and that drives weight on the bar which drives hypertrophy. Doh.

So now we know hypertrophy and that neural adaptation is a good thing not some unrelated oddball of nature to be shunned. I'm not saying you need to do a pure powerlifting or peak strength routine and focus on the extreme end of max singles and doubles either - merely that some neural focus is quite helpful. Well what's the best way to get a lot of hypertrophy for those looking to add muscle mass? Well, the body is a system and adapts best as a system. This is what makes squats, deads, rows, cleans, presses, and snatches very effective. You are using a large portion of your body's musculature to move a heavy weight (think intensity) through a fundamental range of motion. This is full body microtrauma stressing a large portion of the body's musculature all at once. So adding weight to these exercises should net hypertrophy over the entire body. And we all know how hard it is to grow a muscle in isolation and that the body tends to stay within reasonable parameters of balance (otherwise the curl boys would all have huge arms - the training is there, the body just doesn't work like that).

So what's the deal with the 5x5 stuff? Well, first tends to focus on the most effective lifts or the ones with the highest potential for hypertrophy. We are not concerned with balancing the outer head of the triceps here, this is for pure muscle, triceps are included but nothing in isolation is being heavily focused on. So what's with doing the big lifts that often and not splitting it up day by day? Two things:

1) How do you train for any sport or motion? Do it a lot, as much as possible until it's 2nd nature. Why? The nervous system and your body adapt to performing the motion and become much more efficient and better at it (doesn't that sound like weight on the bar - if you didn't get it reread it). Well why not do it every day then? The intensity that you are dealing with is too high and beats on your body's systems too much. Just the nature of the beast in weight training and why powerlifters don't just do max squats, deads, and benches every workout - it's the most direct way to train but it can't be done for long. And in the weight room, just like in life, it is very hard to get very good at a lot of things all at once or when changing those things all the time. You need to focus on a few things and hammer them to really get good at them.

2) Recovery is fairly fast, once your body gets used to training your muscles repair themselves fairly quickly generally within 2-3 days. Also, you need not be 100% recovered to train again. When you tan do you tan real hard one day and then wait inside until you are pasty white again? No, you have tolerable periodic exposure and this is how your body adapts. So more frequency is desirable up to a point but 1x per week tends to suck as a default. In addition, remember when we proxied microtrauma with workload (reps X sets X intensity or weight used)? Well do you think you could handle doing 15 sets of squats in 1 day? Think back to the pasty white skin tanning - is it better to get fried for hours and then sit inside whitening up or is it better to get some tolerable amount more frequently. But still understand that the total amount of microtrauma from the squat can be much higher if spread out over 3 days during the week - i.e. you can tan in three 30 minute sessions without burning but a single 90 minute session might toast you (so in 1 session a week maybe they can only get 60 minutes - hence 90 minutes is more). Also, think about volume and intensity (%1RM). What's a good balance to get enough microtrauma - well think back to workload. You could do one 25 rep set, weight too light probably (this is why there are intensity based cutoffs for workload calcs and walking doesn't make you big, intensity is too low), what about 3 sets of 8 - sure that would work that's fine, enough weight and work, well what about 5x5 - that works too, and with less density it's probably the way to get a good amount of workload with some pretty good weight (intensity).

So that's the jist and how strength and hypertrophy are related. That's also the jist on how why the 5x5 or any similar setup is structured that way and designed to work. Oh yeah, the other essential ingredient is food. Caloric excess will move the scale. If you aren't gaining weight, you aren't eating enough. You cannot add another wing to your house with only enough material to make small repairs on the existing structure.

And why the different templates and structures - just different ways of going about getting the body to acclimate. If you can acclimate fast enough to add weight to your best set of 5 three times a week - do it. If you can only add weight 1x per week that will work too and then you wind up with undulating loads during the week. When you can't add weight weekly, well then it's done periodically and your undulations move beyond purely weekly into larger blocks and you get periodization. All different ways to skin a cat, go with the fastest you can. And variables change and are altered. Different ways to get stronger - getting your squat from 200x5 to 220x5 can be handled in a lot of ways. Maybe it's 4 5lbs increases, one a week. Maybe it's taking your best 5 sets of 5 with 180lbs and pushing it up to 200. Maybe a combination or working on a weak link.

I hope this has helped someone. But that's the whole deal. Not too hard is it. And as to the original topic, programming is just about efficiently organizing work. To get as big as possible in the shortest period of time, a split with a ton of different exercises done 1x per week and lot of isolation is probably a very bad choice (and if you read above, you know why). But training the whole body or a big portion of the body in a session will let you get enough frequency and let you really focus on the lifts that can make that mass pile on as fast as possible. Then again, if you don't really want to add muscle and just want to work on your conditioning and aesthetics and balance - well, if you are pounding the compounds hard with that kind of frequency, it's hard to fit this work in. Figure out what you need to do and plan for it. It's that simple. You don't need to do everything at once and for most people they should focus on aesthetics on an as needed basis rather than trying to preempt all possible future problems that my arrise while hobbling their high priority mass gaining phase.
 
Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n

Fatigue, Failure, Nervous System

Actually knowing that workload is a proxy for microtrauma or stimulus, now learn about fatigue or the nervous system. The nervous system is what overtraining is about, it's not about tissue repair so much. You don't get exhausted, unable to concentrate, interupted sleep patters, decreased performance and reaction times from doing too many sets of bis one day. This is your nervous system getting hammered. The nervous system is what recuits your muscles and to do heavy work it fires hard (rate coding). So knowing that workload is a proxy for stimulus to the muscles and hypertrophy, getting those extra reps by going to failure becomes particularly expensive. Not that failure is bad but simply that rate coding skyrockets and that impacts fatigue and accumulated fatigue is overtraining - it is not an accident that failure or HIT type protocols default to low volume and stress recovery (they just didn't realize it wasn't the muscles that were failing, it was their nervous system redlining i.e. failure is not a stimulus unless you are trying to get better at the neural level and that is a viable way to load the muscles progressively with more weight but it isn't as direct as Mr. Mentzer seemed to think).

So that's failure in a nutshell, and reaching failure is not necessarily a bad thing. But it's important to understand it because fatigue is the limited resource so fatigue limits workload which limits microtrauma which limits hypertrophy. So there is a balance and limited resources.

This is a great read on recruitment and how exactly this works, pay particular attention to nwlifter's posts, he actually just started posting here the other day. Really sharp guy and knows this area unbelievably: http://www.drdarden.com/readTopic.do?id=394848

Also the difference between the nervous system and performance/strength/muscular system in training can be seen in the two factor model where fitness and fatigue are separate factors. Interestingly and what makes this really important to separate those factors is that the nervous system recovers much faster than performance is lost. Basically, the rate of decay in fatigue is much higher and basically 3:1. Why is this important - higher workloads. A program that might kill someone over 10 weeks without break might be very stimulative for 3-4 weeks. Knowing that fatigue can be disipated quickly, you wind up with periodization or an undulating set of blocks to where workload can be very high for a period, lowered for a brief period to allow recovery and then raised again. This allows a lot more work and microtrauma. Now this isn't necessary for most teens getting into this or anything, the name of the game there is to keep fatigue low enough to be tolerable and then scale the weights, but this relationship is very useful for elite lifters and athletes. This type of model is basically the standard at that level. Both of these are great links - you'll get a great contrast between single and dual factor models in the first (don't worry about the specific programs - one is the dual factor 5x5 on my site anyway - and I actually wrote the description on the link) and in the 2nd you'll see how this is used and put to work at high levels.
http://www.higher-faster-sports.com/PlannedOvertraining.html
http://forum.mesomorphosis.com/48-post3.html

So that's a lot of info with everything above and those links. But once if you understand everything in my previous piece or at least most of it and read through the 3 links here. That's basically a big big portion of everything you need. Arguably, there isn't much else you need to know except how to put it all together and what changes to make and when - but training is art as well as science.
 
Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n

TUT, HYPERTROPHY, WORKLOAD, HISTORICAL PERSPECTIVE ON HIT, ETC


First TUT - don't get caught up in this. TUT is not the stimulus or causality - it just sort of falls out correlated under normal conditions. If it was causality, it would matter in all conditions. Case in point, you need to get a decent amount of mechanical work in for hypertrophy (i.e. the microtrauma thing) or perform a given number of reps with a weight heavy enough (intensity) to do the job. There's an inherent balance in there. Flat out, the more you do, the more microtrauma you get (pretty much, I guess it could get rediculous at some point but the relationship is fairly linear for all practical purposes). So stimulus for a given training session = workload (sets X reps X weight). It just might not be the best idea for consistent progress to arrange your training with a single massive day and then curl up in a ball for a week paying for it. So thinking about this - how does TUT fit in? Real simple, it flat out takes more time to do more work. This is why TUT is correlated. If TUT was the causality though (not workload), super slow reps would be great all the time, or less reps but same amount of total time. Well once you get extreme like that TUT falls appart because you break it away from workload (basically you aren't doing more mechanical work for microtrauma, you are doing less work more slowly). It's not all that simple but that's the big chunk. Also, if you are interested in getting strong using maximal force results in maximal concentric contraction and bar speed - this is not a negative aspect, it is very positive even though the affect on the TUT calculation is negative (workload is still equal though). So workload is king, don't distort TUT. TUT looks good largely because it's correlated with workload and a lot of the big TUT guys are low volume guys so the last thing they want to hear is about workload of which volume (total number of reps or sets x reps) is the major component as intensity/weight on the bar has to stay in fairly fixed bounds for resistance training.

For 5x5 - thinking about workload, it's not your top set in a ramped group that is the only important one. All of those other sets contribute also to workload and TUT. You don't need to be working close to failure. The advantage of the ramped sets is it serves as a warm up, provides additional mechanical work, and saves some resources for a big final set. That's the whole deal. And that's not the only way to do it 5x5 with straight weight is used also plenty of times (weight is slightly lower) but workload is much higher especially when you figure relevant workload might only really include sets at 60% or greater so in ramped you maybe count the top 3 sets whereas in straight accross 5x5 you basically have 5x5 at 80% or so and they all count and are significant. But it's not volume for volume's sake, the goal is still to push up your best lifts whether it's best set of 5 or 5x5 or whatever. The volume is a means to an end (as you noted volume and intensity are inversely related but for hypertrophy and strength development intensity is within some pretty narrow bounds so to really move and manipulate the workload equation you have to add sets which has a double multiplicative effect vs. a fairly constant weight). Think of it from proficient to efficient which mirrors deloading and loading. You have a max set of 5 at 300 so you start to hammer your 5x5 starting at 250 and then raising it up to around 290 for a PR (this is efficient and mirrors loading - you get good at doing a lot of work), then you deload and push up your best single set of 5 and generally you might get it to 320 range (this is proficient where you leverage that efficiency into getting good a less work). That's kind of the idea anyway.

As far as the two types of hypertrophy - I don't know. I wouldn't really concern myself with sacro (and by the way, that doesn't mean an increase in the number of muscle fibers, it's fluid - there's really no evidence that fibers split as far as I know, maybe in rats). I don't really have it in my head that it makes much difference in the end all. Sure, maybe after pushing really hard on on core lifts for a while and getting big and strong you can drop the intensity and do a bunch of pump stuff and get nice and swollen up a tad. Okay, whatever. It probably does help marginally with strength just as much as leverage/water weight/more volume in the muscle helps. Basically, I wouldn't make this a long-term goal or priority in your training unless you just like to train that way.

Also - historically you have to think back to the origins of HIT and low volume. The period from the very 1970s was the golden age of volume (way way way way higher than what people consider volume or HVT today). First, every one of those guys got big and strong before that in an era of olympic weightlifting where physique contests were basically spun out from OL competition. Powerlifting had started. But all those 1970's guys built their foundation the old fashioned way. Squats, pulls, presses etc... Now at that point they started doing these outrageously long pump marathons with hours in the gym doing isolation work. And to do all those reps you need very low weight (intensity/%1RM), so to get the microtrauma from very low weight, you need to do a ton of reps. Also, they already had their base, they still kept up their lifts and basically just refined. I think Arnold's weight used to increase for a competition from 220ish to 240s (very different steroid use than todays pros who cut down from 300+ to 260-270). Anyway those workouts were outrageous and all the isolation volume (sarco) didn't do a whole lot for the normal man looking to build his foundation (myo). But I guess I helped them with weak points and to a degree probaby resulted in some myo hypertrophy too. Anyway, this is where the "efficiency" in low volume came from, focusing on the weight lifting and improvement rather than just doing a bunch of aimless shit. The problem is that HIT came from Bodybuilding so it really had no idea about what else was going on in the world and it and bodybuilding became very sheltered which is why everything non-HIT is "HVT" but in reality no one with a brain is using volume for volume's sake, if they increase workload it's to get a lift up not to just do a bunch of work and most programming outside of BBing is organized quite well. Hopefully that's some perspective.

As far as where bodybuilders would be without drugs. Years ago I spoke with and met several Pros, watched them train (plus a bunch of amateurs and recreational). I can honestly say that every single one that I spoke with knew no more about training than the rest of the stalled pencil necks in the gym, didn't train any harder than most, and in my mind, drugs and genetics to respond favorably to drugs were the sole factor that allowed them to progress past where you average dedicated gym rat was. This was back in the late 1980s and early 1990s. Most of them had never done a deadlift in their lives. None of them squatted or used it as a mass movement to develop their physiques. None ever did a barbell row. I think the closest one guy got to free weights was inclines in the smith machine. Now that's changed some since that time but the bottom line is that in all honesty, the only thing that separated them from the frustrated guys beating their heads in was the drugs. It had nothing to do with their training. It's been a dirty little secret for decades now and this is why kids and people get so frustrated and don't gain well on the advice of the Pro's. Because it's drugs - they are night and day for a shitty program and even for a great program when it comes to hypertrophy (they control the mechanism basically - it's a much bigger deal is BBing than it is in strength performance holding bodyweight constant). Maybe take a look at cows heavily drugged. No resistance program whatsoever but they put on a ton of muscle. Well, give them a program and manage their diet, now you have BBer cattle.
 
Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n

Experience Level and Training

The whole "newbie" and fullbody thing aren't mutually exclusive, it probably helps to frame things a different way. I'll use the word beginner for newbie. This is kind of arbitrary delineation but it will serve for the purposes below and it's geared mainly to what goes on in BBing and commercial gyms. We will leave the spectrum of the above advanced to elite to world level lifters out of it but make no mistake it is lifting which makes you bigger along with food, if you still think there is voodoo after reading all my posts from page 4 and on, you need to reread.

EXPERIENCE LEVEL AND TRAINING

Beginner
Typically a beginner will have a very simple program and can progress workout to workout for a decent stretch. This might be adding 5lbs to the back squat 2 to even 3 times per week or maybe it's 2.5lbs to the bench on the same frequency. Essentially every time or most times he goes into the gym, he's a different lifter. Simply the rate of adaptation is high, the time between personal records is low, and the necessary complexity of the programming to elicit these progressions is low.

Intermediate
An intermediate may ramp up to his records over a few weeks and then get decent stretches where he'll set new records on lifts on a weekly basis. At first he might get 12 week runs, later on only 3-4 weeks, but nevertheless he is making fast progress and adding weight to his lifter weekly or or almost weekly. Within a week lifts and stress on the body will generally undulate. If 3 full body workouts are used it's typically Heavy, Light, Medium with the work geared to getting that next record the following week. Rate of adaptation is still medium, time between records is medium, and complexity of the program is medium.

Advanced
An advanced lifter gets to the point where weekly progress isn't really viable. He may ramp up and get 1 record or he might not be able to go anywhere with that structure and to get that kind of progression he has to train so far from his core competency that the training fails to carryover well and even cause regression in ignored core. For example dropping the backsquat and training the butt blaster machine or working in the 25 rep range on lifts or some other oddball thing. Sort of like a 100m sprinter working on his 3000m times because easy progress is available to him there (unfortunately his 100m doesn't really move much if at all). I have a post on properly using benchmarks to evaluate progress here: http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showpost.php?p=5427025&postcount=941. Programming here is characterized over larger blocks of weeks in a micro, meso, macro cycle format for planning. He may work very hard and only make a single increment of progress at the 4 or 8 week point. This type of training is indicative of periodization and what goes on in advanced athletics and it gets longer and longer. One could almost say for a top world lifter, he may be training an entire year for a single increment of progression at the world championships and he might have a 4 year plan setup to hit his best at the olympic games. Obviously adaptability is low, time between records is long, and complexity of the program is high (and for the world level lifter add "very very" before each of those but it doesn't have to be that way for everyone at the simple advanced classification I'm talking about).

So those are the 3 easiest ways to look at it and on the line between beginner and world level lifter there are obviously infinitely many sub-points but I think it's easiest to look at it like this and more relevant to the discussion. Obviously, irregardless of where you are or where you think you ought to be, you want to be in the fastest lane possible. Complexity for complexity's sake is dumb. Slow progress when fast is available is very poor decision making. Training indirectly with elaborate assistance exercises to raise your back squat is foolish if you can walk in the gym and add weight to your back squat. These are all done out of necessity not because they are desirable.

GOALS AND ORGANIZATION OF TRAINING

Now for the split vs. full body or large part of body and how it related to experience level. Drum roll - - it doesn't. No one outside of bodybuilding is operating off some elaborate bodypart split. No one at the highest level of lifting is not doing full body or close to full body. The training volumes and frequency at the highest levels are staggering to most bodybuilders even during a deloading period before competition. Bottom line, experience level is not about splitting the body into parts. Your goal at a point in time determines the objectives you are going to use during the training period then the objectives determine how you are going to organize your work. A split simply falls out as the organization.

Full Body or Most of Body - Training Lifts
If at any stage of experience your goal is to add as much muscle as quickly as possible, the objectives you will stress will be raising your best compound lifts in some viable range - best set of 5, 8, or 10 maybe best 5x5, or 3x8 or whatever. That and the eating is the best way to add muscle and generate the adaptation you are seeking. And the organization for that? Well doing those lifts 1x per week and throwing in a bunch of garbage is a pretty crapy way to get better at them. If you have any clue, you would not select some outrageous 5 day bodypart split with tons of exercises and train the lifts 1x per week. In this kind of training you focus on lifts, not bodyparts and generally it doesn't get more complicated than upper/lower. For the record, I don't believe in push/pull/legs because that's basically chest/back/legs and you are right at the cusp of a bodypart split - not that it may not be a good organization for a hybrid goal where pure muscle gain and refinement are equal, but merely that no one would really consider this optimal organization to get big lifts up fast.

Elaborate Splits - Training Bodyparts
Now what about if one is prioritizing refinement of one's physique over a period? Well, all compound lifts trained frequently are not going to leave much room for other work. You might get one or two things done but largely there's just no room and you won't accomplish your goal. So here the objectives determine that you need a lot of isolation exercise or different varriants while maybe maintaining your core lifts or even just preventing serious detraining. This might be a lifter who preceives some imbalances or wants to work on this for a period after adding some muscle - or this might be a bodybuilder preparing for a contest. Obviously a more elaborate bodypart style breakdown falls logically out from the goal and objectives. This is the time to make such a choice and layout. It makes sense. It's a good choice.

CONCLUSION

So that's the jist and how I think it's best looked at. Your goal determines your objectives which determin your organization (split or full body or whatever). Your experience level determines how you go about achieving all of this and how you program it. They are separate. They are not mutually exclusive. This is a good way to think about it and use this logic to arrive at what you should be doing. It is very clear and will not steer you wrong
 
Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n

MC2, always advancing the knowledge.
Thank you! The model in my head keeps getting clearer.
 
Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n

Island Son said:
MC2, always advancing the knowledge.
Thank you! The model in my head keeps getting clearer.
Funny isn't it. Generally the more knowledge one has the more complicated things become, but the reality in training is that people are already way overcomplicating things. They put voodoo out about 1x per week frequency, that 3 rep sets can't be good for hypertrophy (but don't have a clue as to the assumptions that make this hold up), going to failure, perfect programs etc...

But really, when you start getting the nitty gritty, you realize that it is all pretty simple. There is no grand uber science PhD scheme of perfect variables. Certainly breaking it down to the molecular level can be ugly but that's simply not necessary and doesn't really lend all that much in practice. The pure practice and fundamental understanding - it's pretty damn basic and easy to grasp. Learning more makes all that fuzzy crap a lot more clear.

And then of course, you think, well if this is actually pretty basic and clear, how is it that things got so darn fuzzy and weird to begin with. Frankly, this is something that never ceases to amaze me. I'm hesitant to throw conspiracy theory but man...I have wondered at times.
 
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Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n

Madcow,

You are the man!

Your posts are always insightful, and appreciated by all on here and at your geocities site!

Thanks again.
 
of course - also very lucky that I found this articel on his site....

nevertheless the attitude towards the bodybuilding their methods ect ect-

few years ago also think in a different way - but this attitude I can definitely support - only logical and it's not so complicated all these bodybuilders make it...

with strong greets ;)
 
I've been wanting to start to 5x5 for so long- I'm talking months ago, but I've never done it because I've been so discouraged from trying it because it seems so complicated.

I've read Madcow's explanation about everything- the impossibility of linear progress when it comes to split training and 1x a week training, his explanation of better progress through gradual distribution of the load through higher frequency (3x a week) rather than pounding hard once a week, eating for hypertrophy which will accompany strength gains only if workload is sufficient (which can explain why I shouldn't just max out every session because workload isn't enough), the reason for a very small selection of exercises because they are proven to work, not the myriad of isolation exercises, dual-factory theory vs. single-factor, etc. etc.

I've read so much on his 5x5 geocities site, everything but why 5x5 is so effective.

I don't understand the reasoning behind it.

I do understand this: it's not about falling within the 6-12 rep range for hypertrophy. I already understand that you can drop the reps and up the sets and still attain a high-enough workload to elicit hypertrophy. This is why 5x5 works, even though it falls 1 rep shy of 6 reps (supposedly the scientifically optimal rep range for hypertrophy is 6-12 reps, but that's just for the sake of doing enough workload, but Madcow has thought outside of the box by decreasing reps and increasing sets, and also consequently using heavier weight since you're not training anywhere close to the lactate threshold, or muscular endurance, which is when you train with higher reps).

But my issue is with sufficient "workload." Take 3x6 with 240 lbs. Then the 5x5 with 250 lbs, but only on the very last set. I'll train with the 3x6 twice a week. Then someone else trains 5x5 three times a week. Wouldn't the workload from the 3x6 still be higher overall than the 5x5? This isn't even counting the warm-up sets I would do on the 3x6.

For example:

3x6 (18 reps) x 240 lbs x twice a week = 8640 lbs
1x5 (the last heaviest set) x 250 lbs x three times a week = 3750 lbs

Unless the first 4 ramp-up sets do contribute to workload, I don't see how you are putting more overall stress on the muscles in the long-run. I find that including the warm-up sets is odd because if I had counted my warm-up sets, my workload for the 3x6 would be even higher. How is the 5x5 supposed to account for greater stress due to higher frequency of training if the workload seems so low?
 
confusedperson said:
Unless the first 4 ramp-up sets do contribute to workload, I don't see how you are putting more overall stress on the muscles in the long-run. I find that including the warm-up sets is odd because if I had counted my warm-up sets, my workload for the 3x6 would be even higher. How is the 5x5 supposed to account for greater stress due to higher frequency of training if the workload seems so low?
The question is: what is appropriate at a given time for a given person.

It's nut just "do more work and therefore get bigger/stronger", though you'd want to progress over time. That's the key, as I see it - you keep that top set of 5 moving upward slowly but surely. You'll stall and change and in time your training will look little like 'the 5x5' but you will know that in order to progress, you need to focus on the important things: improving lifts as you go (whether that's 1rm or 10rm or whatever), not getting caught up in voodoo (like the *12 reps is the scietifically perfect rep rage* comment), and eating for your goals (don't eat 1200 cals/day and expect to get a big deadlift PR).

It's big picture thinking. The 5x5 as described is a great 'foolproof' way to start training in a non-retarded way. You don't do it forever because like eveything else it won;t work forever. It will work beautifully where appropriate and less so as one progresses. But hopefully by then one realizes that progress from a physique standpoint has a lot to do with the basic lifts and the fundamentlas of nutrition, not the goofball exercises that hit 'angles' or the supps that cause pumps.

To be succinct, it's just cutting out the fluff and focusing on the big stuff. Get stronger+eat more= get bigger. Sweat the details when they become relevant and not preemptively. SImple stuff. Don't make it complicated until it has to be complicated ;)

EDIT: I'm not quite sure that I answered the question, so I'll add that it's not as simple as workload, but that's certainly a part of it. An increase in workload over time constitutes progressive resistance even if the weights stay the same, so it's certainly a variable to be tracked. You can overdo it with ligth weights too if you do too much. The key is balancing the heavy weight along with the 'right' amount of work. Determining this relationship will only come from trial and error.
 
Jim Ouini said:
I think you actually have to lift more than once a month before you can give advice like this, G-dawg ;)
I lifted twice this month actually (three times if you count the 20 minutes I spent playing with my CoC's yesterday).

It's, um, part of my new low-frequency experiment. Yeah, that's it :p
 
Hey guys ... does it matter wich length barbell i use to deadlift and press ? It's easier to deadlift and press with smaller barbell because it doesnt flare so much, should i use regular or i may use smaller ?

thanks
 
Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n

Hey all
I did madcows 5x5 for 11 weeks about 2 months ago. I stopped because of overuse of the knee but my lifts were going up. Knees started to crack, started walking funny and I had to stop.
I know everyone says not to mess with the program but....

I was wondering what your thoughts are regarding replacing Wednesday Squats with a 1x20 or 2x20 set of lunges or other unilateral leg work. I figure high volume will be good for recovery and growth and won't tax central nervous system.
Any other ideas for wednesdays squat are appreciated.

My knees really couldn't take squatting 3 days a week but I really did make progress on the lifts and I am eager to start back up again.

Secondly, if doing another cycle of 5x5 where do i begin? Do I start with 4 weeks buildup or can I shorten that? I have been lifting( all the compounds) since then but not 5x5 style

not sure if it helps but
squat-225x5
clean 175x5
Bench 85x5(dumbells)
 
Dumb question from a noobie . . . I started my first day on the Intermediate 5x5 and it seemed pretty easy. Do I stay at the same weight the entire week even if I can do all five sets, or should I bump the weight up from day to day?
 
Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n

Hawkson said:
Hey all
I did madcows 5x5 for 11 weeks about 2 months ago. I stopped because of overuse of the knee but my lifts were going up. Knees started to crack, started walking funny and I had to stop.
I know everyone says not to mess with the program but....

I was wondering what your thoughts are regarding replacing Wednesday Squats with a 1x20 or 2x20 set of lunges or other unilateral leg work. I figure high volume will be good for recovery and growth and won't tax central nervous system.
Any other ideas for wednesdays squat are appreciated.

My knees really couldn't take squatting 3 days a week but I really did make progress on the lifts and I am eager to start back up again.

Secondly, if doing another cycle of 5x5 where do i begin? Do I start with 4 weeks buildup or can I shorten that? I have been lifting( all the compounds) since then but not 5x5 style

not sure if it helps but
squat-225x5
clean 175x5
Bench 85x5(dumbells)

The squats are the main part of this program. So don't mess with them. If you start taking out the squats then it like drive your car with only three wheels. Usually when people are having knee issues with squats it is do to incorrect technique. Are you doing full squat ATG style or above parallel? I would also suggest getting a book called Starting Strength. It does an excellent job of walking you thru the squat technique. I don't know anyone that doesn't learn something they were doing wrong or just something useful from it.

Perp
 
Hi guys, i read 20 pages of this thread and cant go on anymore. Sorry if these questions have been answered.

1) For straight weight 5x5 madcow recommends using a weight 7.5% less than 1x5 day. Is this true for all the weeks including the submax weeks(ie weeks 1 & 2) or do you use 7.5% less than your 5RM throughout the cycle? Also what's the upper limit for this percentage? Seems like 7.5% lesser is quite tough for me to complete.

2) For hypertrophy, which is a better method? option 1 deload then peak or option 2 pure deload?

BTW all these info i got them from http://www.geocities.com/elitemadcow1/5x5_Program/Periodized_5x5.htm?20079

Thanks madcow2 for all the great information.
 
Ok ive downloaded the spreadsheet so i answered my own question - that 5x5 should be using 7.5% less weight than 1x5 of that same week. Sorry for my laziness, posting without checking first.

Anyway, another thing came up. When doing 1x5 using only 6% difference in weights in between, would that be too little? I guess i'll be totally fatigued when i reach my heaviest set. Can i cut the ramped weights and do a normal warmup and jump into my one top set instead? Something like this: 100x5, 140x3, 170x2, 190x1, 200x5 (max)
Will i be compromising on the effectiveness of this program?

Thanks again.
 
That would be a bad plan since you'd be missing out on the volume of work building up to that top set. It's a common error to dismiss the effectiveness of sub-maximal weights. Those build-up sets contribute to your growth and progress by adding significantly to the overall tonnage lifted.

If you feel that you need to conserve energy by dropping reps on your build-up sets in order to have a chance of hitting your top set then it's an indication that your top set is too high for your current level of conditioning. Get the volume in as specified.

A 6% gap could be used by someone with good conditioning and inter-set recovery ability but is too small a gap for many. I think the program calls for 10-15%. Follow the spreadsheet until you've gained some experience with the program. On later runs, you'll have the experience of how your body responds to the program and periodization in general to know how to tailor the workouts to your own specific needs.

By the way, if you're unused to this style of workout, I'd strongly suggest starting with the Intermediate version rather than the dual-factor version. You can switch over if you find that the volume of the Inter version is too little.
 
Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n

blut wump said:
By the way, if you're unused to this style of workout, I'd strongly suggest starting with the Intermediate version rather than the dual-factor version. You can switch over if you find that the volume of the Inter version is too little.

Please note that it is HIGHLY unlikely that is the case:) You WILL grow and strengthen off the intermediate program, and probably fall in love with its logic, simplicity and intuitive design.
 
Thanks blut wump, i'll do just that. How about my original question?

2) For hypertrophy, which is a better method? option 1 deload then peak or option 2 pure deload?

Any insights for that?

Thanks.
 
If your intent is to pile back into another volume phase at the earliest opportunity then I'd suggest going for the pure deload. There's really not a lot of difference between the two methods, though, if you only take the Intensity phase out through week 6.

I've even run the program where I did a pure deload, due to time commitments, for two weeks and then dived back as normal into week 7 of the Intensity phase.

You might find it hard to run the pure deload for more than a couple of weeks. Only getting to the gym twice per week can eat into your conditioning.
 
Do you think i can incoporate short phases of fat loss into this program? Considering the first 2 weeks of submaximal weights as not being able to provide adequate stimulus for growth, can i decrease calories then bump it back up from week 3 onwards?

Thanks.
 
Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n

shinchan said:
Do you think i can incoporate short phases of fat loss into this program? Considering the first 2 weeks of submaximal weights as not being able to provide adequate stimulus for growth, can i decrease calories then bump it back up from week 3 onwards?

Thanks.

How much fat you hoping to lose in 2 weeks ?
If sub maximal weights didn't provide adequate stimulus for growth in the weeks leading up to and past old records then how would you be strong enough to make PR's ?

The more you deplete your calories the more you deplete your gains in the weight room (in theory anyway)

I have had around an 8 week run of doing a 5x5 and did lose a bit of weight whilst making small gains in the lifts. Just hit the squats hard, i was cycling carbs and most the high carb days landed on lifting days and low carb days on none lifting. I don't think i took drastic measures on the calorie depletion.
I was actually eating what i thought was a maintenance diet whilst doing this.

It all depends on wich you want the most, if you want your numbers to go up in the weight room then maybe cutting calories isn't such a good idea. If you want to lose some bodyfat even if it means you might not make as much progress in the lifts then try cutting a bit.

Cutting those calories in the first 2 weeks might be the difference between a Personal record and a failure in weeks to come. And at what cost ? trying to shed 2 pounds of fat ?
 
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Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n

5x5 noob question: On the 'advanced' version of the 5x5 (pendlay version), when it says "Mon: Squat, Bench, Rows; Wed: Squats, Deads, Military, Pullups; Fri: Squat, Bench, Rows" does that mean literally every monday is Squat/Bench/Rows, every wednesday is Squat/Deads/Military/Pullups ... etc? Or is it an ABA, BAB, type of plan?
 
With both the Intermediate and Advanced versions of the Bill Starr/Madcow programs, the MWF workouts are as stated rather than being in any alternating fashion. The idea is of each week having a heavy, medium and light day with regards to workload. Think of deads as being the super-heavy version of rows. :)

If you're new to these workouts, I strongly urge you to begin with the Intermediate version rather than trying to dive into a dual-factor Advanced scheme.
 
But I'm used to doing soooooo much more work than just 3 exercises =) I'll try starting with the intermediate for 4-5 weeks though. Does it make any difference if I overtrained the bejesus out of myself over the summer (4-day split with only 1 rest day between splits for 3 months straight, very high volume and intensity)? School started for me and I couldn't keep it up. I've been out of it since; pretty much been plateaued on everything for the last 2 months or so.
 
Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n

Jeebus344 said:
But I'm used to doing soooooo much more work than just 3 exercises =) I'll try starting with the intermediate for 4-5 weeks though. Does it make any difference if I overtrained the bejesus out of myself over the summer (4-day split with only 1 rest day between splits for 3 months straight, very high volume and intensity)? School started for me and I couldn't keep it up. I've been out of it since; pretty much been plateaued on everything for the last 2 months or so.

They are not *just* three exercises. They are the exercises that make some people curl up in a fetal position and cry provided they go heavy enough. After a workout of full body lifts, I usually drag myself home.

I don't think what you did in the summer will affect your progression on 5x5.
 
Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n

I'll admit that I stopped reading the thread at page 20, so maybe this was answered specifically somewhere in the next 100 pages...

Anyway, 32 YO 5'10" 147lbs ~10%BF former fatty (like 325+ 7 years ago) who finally wised up and lost the extra baggage. Did the fat thing for a while, getting a bit sick of the skinny thing, so now I figure I'd try for the trifecta and try for the strong thing. I'd been moving weights around for the past few years but no real plan and thus no progress other than some toning. I started getting more serious about it around two months ago where I started RIppetoe's Starting Strength program (more correctly, the version that subs the rows for the cleans) and have put on 6lbs (all lean, as far as I can tell) and have significantly increased all of my lifts. I probably could have put on more mass, but being a former fatty I am still somewhat calorie-phobic and admittedly probably haven't eaten enough to get all I could out of the work.

Anyway, I'm still progressing on the SS program, but am starting to plan what comes next and this seems like a good candidate. My main question is in regards to the "ramp up" sets detailed in the program vs. standard warmups. It seems like most programs (including the SS program I was on) assume the warmups and don't really make it part of the formal program. But the ramping up specified here pretty much seems like the standard warmups I've been doing - and as such, despite being called a 5x5, the actual volume seems lower than SS. Is this correct? I.e., my current squat for SS would look something like this:

Bar - 1x5 (warmup)
115 - 1x5 (warmup)
155 - 1x5 (warmup)
185 - 1x3 (warmup)
205 - 3x5 (work)

It sounds like this would translate into the intermediate 5x5 Monday as something like:

Bar - 1x5 (warmup)
115 - 1x5
145 - 1x5
165 - 1x5
185 - 1x5
205 - 1x5

Is this right? Although I suppose the top 1x5 probably would be heavier than my 3x5 under SS at all the same weight.

Second, just so I'm sure about the Friday routine - does "First 4 sets are the same as Monday's" mean Monday's top 1x5? Or does it follow the first 4 ramp up sets - i.e.:

Bar - 1x5 (warmup)
115 - 1x5
145 - 1x5
165 - 1x5
185 - 1x5
210 - 1x3
165 - 1x8

Thanks in advance.
 
You haven't misinterpreted it.

The Intermediate 5x5 is designed to avoid build-up of fatigue and the ensuing tendency to move into over-training or over-reaching. You should find that you can more-easily advance the top set with the lower workload. As ever, with any program to get stronger, you are juggling progress, recovery ability and the duration of the training cycle. At some stage the body cries "Uncle" and you have to change things up.

If you've been on the SS program for a while, switch to the 5x5 for a while until progress stalls again.
 
Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n

Good to see you here BW.

Bar - 1x5 (warmup)
115 - 1x5
145 - 1x5
165 - 1x5
185 - 1x5
210 - 1x3
165 - 1x8

This would be correct for the friday. The set of 3 gets you ready for 5 reps on Monday, and the set of 8 is in there for Hypertrophy (sp?).
 
You know where to find me if you miss me. ;)

I always keep an eye on this thread. There's too much nostalgia in here to ignore it.
 
Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n

blut wump said:
You know where to find me if you miss me. ;)

I always keep an eye on this thread. There's too much nostalgia in here to ignore it.

True, I'm heading over there now, i have a question for ya.

And ya, this thread has a lot of great info.
 
Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n

gymmy1 said:
what type of gpp could i implement with the 5x5 intermediate routine that could be done in the gym?

What is gpp?
 
Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n

djeclipse said:
What is gpp?


General physical preparedness. Good article here:

http://www.deepsquatter.com/strength/archives/ls14.htm

It would be like sled pulling, farmers walks, etc on off days to boost recovery.

I was wondering what people where doing on the intermediate 5x5 routine. I need some stuff to do inside the gym. I've been doing 3 sets of 12 pushups on one of my off days and might incorporate farmers walks but i don't want to screw up my dead progress.

I've been doing the routine for almost five months now. I've also been doing 45min low intensity cardio on the elliptical on my off days for the past month.

thanks
 
Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n

for the intermediate version.. how do i change the workout because i stalled on all lifts. i went up 20lbs in bodyweight and 50-60 lbs on all 3 core lifts :) I was thinking of changing rows to power cleans and seeing if it keeps my progress going, and yes i reset 3 weeks and tried to blow past the old pr but couldnt
 
Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n

hi,
can there be microtraumata without soreness in the muscle ? because after a few workouts of 5x5 its hard to get a sore muscle, or isnt this necessary ?
 
Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n

Hey,

I was hoping I might ask one of the really knowledgeable people like blut wump about preventative training for the shoulders.

I've been lifting for 9 years and have run both the intermediate version and advanced version many times. Up until I started these programs, I had only done body building and had never had any shoulder problems, but I quickly developed some after having started this type of training. As a result, I started adding tons of rotator cuff work. The problem is better, but my bench still bothers me and I added 3 sets of scapular push-ups (arms perfectly straight only using the scapulae to push up) to the program at least once a week on a separate day from rotator cuff work. I cut short of failure and do something like 40 reps, 20 reps, and 20 reps or so.

I failed on all my lifts this most recent time through the program aside from squats 5x5, and it's pretty clear that I over-reached to far, but I was wondering if the scapular push-ups might have had a bad effect on the program (destroying the progression on the bench and military press, etc.). Is this possible? Should I avoid this preventative training in order to maintain the progression?

It seems that working in the 20 to 40 rep range would target primarily the slow twitch muscle fibers and not affect my work on the compound lifts greatly, but I just want to make sure I'm not destroying any chance for progress.

Thanks a lot.
 
Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n

just finished week 4 of the loading phase, bench press and squat up around 20 pounds , i am doing pendlay rows which i didnt do before so i dont have a pre program weight to judge my progress.

in week 5 de loading, as an athlete that needs strength and size but cant fatigue myself too much or my sport suffers this has been a great program and i am looking forward to finishing all 9 weeks and seeing my end results
 
Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n

My joints are starting to get a bit sore, and I was planning on taking week 13 off completely or doing a 1 week deload.

Any opinions on deloading within the intermediate version? Just do warm-up sets for a week? Should I take a week off?

When I return back to my regularly scheduled lifting should I repeat week 12?

Thanks!

(wow, strong join-to-post ratio for me!)
 
Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n

My joints are starting to get a bit sore, and I was planning on taking week 13 off completely or doing a 1 week deload.

Any opinions on deloading within the intermediate version? Just do warm-up sets for a week? Should I take a week off?

When I return back to my regularly scheduled lifting should I repeat week 12?

Thanks!

(wow, strong join-to-post ratio for me!)

lmao Glad you mad your first post bro..

O often take a week of and start over.
 
Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n

lmao Glad you mad your first post bro..

O often take a week of and start over.

lol, thank you!

Yeah, I was considering that too. Take a full week off and do a 4 week deload. I have nothing to lose.

Would you normally reset after 12 weeks?

Madcow pretty much says to run it until it stops working... but it's unclear if he means to run it without intermittent layoffs/deloads or not. In week 12 I'm slated to squat 376x5, that's really, really heavy (at least for me). I'm currently about to start week 9 and my lifts are all STRONG, with no sense of slowing down yet, I'm just starting to feel a little beat up is all. And after some past injuries, I'm superstitious as hell.

Thanks!
 
Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n

bump

Another suggestion I heard is when doing a reset, keep the Friday triple constant, but just reset Monday and Wednesday.

Any thoughts on this

or

comments on my previous post?
 
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