I won't apologize for coming off as abrasive, because when it comes to this topic, it often seems to be necessary. People in the weightlifting arena seem to have incredibly thick skulls. Like other posters (on this site and many others), I have had to spend so many hours over the years explaining and defending basic principles that shouldn't be hard to understand.
I didnt ask nor want an Apology. So dont assume i care. Yes your coming off much more abrasive than helpful.
I will say, however, that you took my words too literally. I was meaning it in the sense of "You heard, but you didn't listen." It was obvious from what you said that you didn't truly understand and absorb the principles he was promulgating -- as you yourself admitted.
So, you know more about "this routine" then I, Good for you.
I am pleased you went back through and re-read his material. Now that you have read it a second time, read it a third time. And a fourth. Read it again every time you are getting ready to start a new training cycle. Make sure you are reading it with an open mind and not through the filter of any preconceived bodybuilding notions you might have. I have been using 5 x 5 programs for several years, and I still find myself going back to Madcow's site, threads like this, and related resources. I learn a little something new every time.
Again, you are taking my words too literally. Putting those different possibilities in there is a rhetorical device. You would not believe some of the crazy things people do when setting up this program. Just read this thread for examples. Most people who think they aren't novices in fact are, just because this program is so different from what they are used to. I have been lifting since 2004 and still went back to Stronglifts 5 x 5 Beginner before embarking on Madcow. You can never work on the fundamentals enough.
I was referring to your original post in which you said you were failing on rows. Remember that failure is the inability to complete every rep
with good form. If you have to cheat at any point in the set (for example, doing a push press on military press), you have failed.
Failed @ Rows before i had my 5 rep max, before i re-read the program, So sure....
Adding to it is changing it. Are you referring to rehab exercises prescribed by a physical therapist? If so, of course you can do those, because they will be very low weight and will not affect your recovery. If you are just adding these exercises of your own accord, I would be extremely wary. If your shoulders really are separating on bench days, I strongly suspect you have a serious form issue. Most people seem to take bench press for granted because it looks so straightforward, when in fact it is just as technical a lift as the squat. Everyone I have ever worked with has had form issues -- some subtle, some major -- that they could improve. Check out some of Andy Bolton's articles for detailed explanations on how to bench press in such a way that spares your shoulders. His work was helpful for me in overcoming my shoulder joint impingements.
So adding to it is changing it, but you say go ahead and change it after saying don't? My bench form is fine. It wasnt in the past, hence the bad shoulders...
It's also quite possible that your reliance on delt exercises is in fact exacerbating your problem. Very few people do delt exercises correctly. If you have shoulder problems, the
only delt exercises you should be doing are arm raises at a 45° angle. Lateral or anterior (90°) raises with weight are a definite no-no.
Thanks...... But i have it handled, good advice, but you do not qualify as my physical therapist, and he said other wise.
Can you deadlift 400 lbs with
perfect form? If you can't, you don't need to be incorporating shrugs into your routine right now. Deadlifts work your traps. Focus on improving your deadlift.
If your shoulders are in as bad of shape as you are indicating, get yourself evaluated by a physical therapist as soon as possible. It may be that you need to drop pressing exercises completely until your shoulder heals. Last year, I did a cycle of Madcow without any pressing exercises at all, and I still made great gains.
So you changed it? sounds like my idea that you said Stop Stop Stop too.
Stop worrying about your precious biceps. They were probably disproportionately large anyway. The point of this program is that it builds your entire body simultaneously and proportionately. What is probably happening is that as you have reduced the number of reps you put them through, they are being puffed with less fluid. If you want to increase the size of your biceps, get bigger and stronger. Get back to me on your biceps after you can Pendlay row at least your body weight with strict form and you can do 5 sets of 5 chinups
all the way to your chest with at least 25 lbs strapped to your waist. Throw in 3 sets of 8 weighted dips on Monday; growing your triceps will make your arms look much larger and more powerful than working your biceps will.
Precious Biceps?, Come on now man. Because I want to ensure most muscle groups get worked out enough,? And your Assuming that im disproportionate from the internet? The point of the program is to gain Strength Quickly, Please point me to the area where he says "its to build proportionately". I can Pen-row my weight easily ao you know. And Chin ups are my bread and butter. So 25lb X 5 is chin up change IMO.
I know that tri's make arms look bigger. Im not worried about "looking good". Stregnth is paramount. thanks though
Again, stop evaluating this information through a bodybuilding filter. My partner and I don't have the biggest biceps in the gym, but we are without question the strongest two men our gym has ever seen. No one else comes remotely close to squatting, deadlifting, benching, pressing or rowing as much as we do. And we barbell curl more than almost anyone in the gym too.
As Madcow might say, would you seriously trade 20 lbs of extra muscle for slightly bigger biceps? I know I wouldn't. Women have told me I have the body of a Greek god. White women openly stare at my legs when I walk past. I've had black women grabbing my ass and squealing with delight -- and I'm white. Straight guys have told me they can't get my ass out of their head (most of them are now on Stronglifts or Madcow). Some men think that curls get the girls. That may or may not be the case, but I can assure you that legs get you laid.
There's no trade off, if i know my limits , and know if im impairing my compound lifts.
3 sets of Biceps a week would not work for my body. Yes rows work bi's before you even mention it.
I choose to ignore your horn tooting.
If you have back problems, you absolutely
should not be using the Smith machine -- and definitely not for a back-intensive exercise like deadlifts. Every human body is built differently, which means that no two people will make exactly the same motion on deadlifts. The Smith machine forces you into a vertical path that is not ideal for your individual body, and if you deviate even slightly from that path, you can injure yourself severely. Besides, the whole point of a deadlift is you have to stabilize the weight yourself, whereas the Smith machine stabilizes it for you.
Got it. thanks
Ditch your ego and start over on this exercise. If pulling from the floor hurts your back, rest the weight on stacks of two or three 45-lb plates. The bar should start midway up your shin. Feel free to start the bar even higher if you need to; it will spare your back. If you have to go back down to 135 lbs on this exercise to train your body to perform it with perfect form, so be it. You will improve a thousand times faster doing low weights with perfect form than doing higher weights on a Smith machine, and the risk of injury will be far lower.
This program is powerful. Using this program, I am training a man who couldn't squat the bare bar to parallel four months ago. Now he can squat 200 kg (440 lbs) x 5 ass to grass, and he is still improving. Precisely because it is so powerful, however, it can also crush you if there are any underlying weaknesses in your chain. If you really are in such delicate physical shape, I would suggest pulling back from this intermediate program and trying a beginner program like Stronglifts 5 x 5 or Starting Strength. Get your body healed and accustomed to performing compound lifts before embarking on a challenge like this.
Its a good program so far. But you speak of it as its perfect, and there is no Perfect program. Yes MADCOW said follow his words to a T. Look around the forum... Hundreds use many variations of this workout, and have gained wonderfully. So its NOT Gospel. As a matter of fact, you also did a Variation of this same program that he said not to do.
Good luck with this program. I am a huge believer in it because it is simple to understand, easy to follow, yet works amazingly well. It's too bad most people overcomplicate that which should be so straightfoward.
Thanks i'll try to K.I.S.S
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