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Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up now!
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Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n
No, you're right. I work as quickly as I am able to and if a workout is light I have no problem hammering away at it. That said, a 5x5 with record or near record weight on the squat takes some time (10 minutes between sets is too much though for this program in the volume stage - 5 minutes is about the limit but you can take a bit more here and there as needed). The other 2 exercises involve pyramids of 5 sets and if you aren't counting dink warmups and just significant pyramiding (but not so high that it hurts your top end performance significantly) this will add up. Plus, squatting, benching, and rowing aren't exactly powder puff exercises. By the time you hit the deloading week you should be begging for it.wnt2bBeast said:i dont know how you can squat 5x5 with a near max weight in 20 minutesif you are truly squatting to near max there is no way you can do it in 20 mins..when i squat on ME day i take upwards of close to 10 minutes between sets it makes a huge difference in the amount of weight you can lift
Im not sure if this pertains to this program, if my remarks are of base for this Madcow just say so lol but i would think one needs to get out of the mentality of of rushing through sets with a time goal...every felx article tells you you should be done in 45 minutes
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Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n
1) I'm really trying to provide people with a workout that stimulates a lot of gains in order to give them an alternative to the typical shit you see on the anabolic board where some 6' 185lbs plateaued kid with "perfect diet and training" can actually use this and make good consistent gains rather than jumping on their typical 500mg test, 400mg Equip, 30mg dbol stack (incidentally I have met a former world champion and Olympic medal winner as well as had a close friend who could jerk close to 500 overhead who during their careers never equaled the typical first cycle that used to get recommended here - I myself have also never used a total mg per week dosage as high). Now I'm not so anti-drug that I won't discuss it at all but as this thread will hopefully serve the purpose of a reference I'd prefer not to stack it with drug information as this kind of works against the whole reason I put it here.
2) "The best thing that could ever happen" is relative. For Joe Juicehead using 1gram of test weekly and 100mg of fina per day, the results from 40mg of anavar are going to be a letdown no matter which program one uses. That said, anavar is good at preserving LBM and resulting in strength gain so it should work fine. Of course you want to be very careful training on roids too many people hit maxes too early or do super pump up sets before warming up (use the bar, then do some very low weight, low rep sets to accustom the joints and connective tissue to load). A lot of new strength leaves the tendons in a lagging position so try to avoid this type of stuff (this program contains none of it but I mention it anyway).
3) The real issue is that it complicates things quite a bit. If you read most people's posts, they don't know where to set the weights. Even if most of them tested their max beforehand it will more than likely move during the program as they aren't accustomed to this type of training. This shift is even more pronounced with drugs. The body's tolderances also are enhanced with drugs so someone with a base tolerance established can now handle additional loading and volume as well possibly recuperate faster during the deload. Since you don't have any reference for your natural tolerances and I'm assuming you aren't a career juicehead judging by the dosage and drug choice you aren't going to have a reference for your natural tolerances post cycle and most likely the reference you do have will be fairly close to invalid unless you run a similar cycle again. Also, one needs to be careful about monitoring the hormone levels as you don't want to load heavily and then deload immediately into a low or zero test environment. Likewise with longer esters that take time to build concentration, you can't load as heavily early on as you can later. When you decide to start PCT and come off the drugs you will want to cut volume and keep intensity high (similar to the 2x per week deload). So to incorporate all this you need to adjust your dosage patters and training so that they coincide with each other. This is all made more difficult by not having a previous frame of reference for this style of training. Most people are intimidated by setting the weights, now you have the task of also planning the dosing and training cycle together with the likely requirement of an additional mesocycle specifically for PCT on the end, then possibly another 2-3 week meso for reacclimation. A daunting task for someone new to all this.
A few points:psychedout said:
1) I'm really trying to provide people with a workout that stimulates a lot of gains in order to give them an alternative to the typical shit you see on the anabolic board where some 6' 185lbs plateaued kid with "perfect diet and training" can actually use this and make good consistent gains rather than jumping on their typical 500mg test, 400mg Equip, 30mg dbol stack (incidentally I have met a former world champion and Olympic medal winner as well as had a close friend who could jerk close to 500 overhead who during their careers never equaled the typical first cycle that used to get recommended here - I myself have also never used a total mg per week dosage as high). Now I'm not so anti-drug that I won't discuss it at all but as this thread will hopefully serve the purpose of a reference I'd prefer not to stack it with drug information as this kind of works against the whole reason I put it here.
2) "The best thing that could ever happen" is relative. For Joe Juicehead using 1gram of test weekly and 100mg of fina per day, the results from 40mg of anavar are going to be a letdown no matter which program one uses. That said, anavar is good at preserving LBM and resulting in strength gain so it should work fine. Of course you want to be very careful training on roids too many people hit maxes too early or do super pump up sets before warming up (use the bar, then do some very low weight, low rep sets to accustom the joints and connective tissue to load). A lot of new strength leaves the tendons in a lagging position so try to avoid this type of stuff (this program contains none of it but I mention it anyway).
3) The real issue is that it complicates things quite a bit. If you read most people's posts, they don't know where to set the weights. Even if most of them tested their max beforehand it will more than likely move during the program as they aren't accustomed to this type of training. This shift is even more pronounced with drugs. The body's tolderances also are enhanced with drugs so someone with a base tolerance established can now handle additional loading and volume as well possibly recuperate faster during the deload. Since you don't have any reference for your natural tolerances and I'm assuming you aren't a career juicehead judging by the dosage and drug choice you aren't going to have a reference for your natural tolerances post cycle and most likely the reference you do have will be fairly close to invalid unless you run a similar cycle again. Also, one needs to be careful about monitoring the hormone levels as you don't want to load heavily and then deload immediately into a low or zero test environment. Likewise with longer esters that take time to build concentration, you can't load as heavily early on as you can later. When you decide to start PCT and come off the drugs you will want to cut volume and keep intensity high (similar to the 2x per week deload). So to incorporate all this you need to adjust your dosage patters and training so that they coincide with each other. This is all made more difficult by not having a previous frame of reference for this style of training. Most people are intimidated by setting the weights, now you have the task of also planning the dosing and training cycle together with the likely requirement of an additional mesocycle specifically for PCT on the end, then possibly another 2-3 week meso for reacclimation. A daunting task for someone new to all this.
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Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n
I also encourage anyone using the program to post their results, general thoughts/experience, or links to their training logs (you can post a single post complete summary log here but not post by post workouts as this thread will blow up). I figure the more success people see, the more likely they are to use it, and upon seeing the success firsthand for themselves they will become interested enough to try to gain a better understanding of what goes into programming training whether it be for athletics or BBing. A list of good stuff to check out at the bottom of this post for anyone so inclined: http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showpost.php?p=4323293&postcount=3
For those interested, I clipped something ghettostudmuffin said about his progress from another thread.
Source Thread: http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showthread.php?t=383357
I also encourage anyone using the program to post their results, general thoughts/experience, or links to their training logs (you can post a single post complete summary log here but not post by post workouts as this thread will blow up). I figure the more success people see, the more likely they are to use it, and upon seeing the success firsthand for themselves they will become interested enough to try to gain a better understanding of what goes into programming training whether it be for athletics or BBing. A list of good stuff to check out at the bottom of this post for anyone so inclined: http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showpost.php?p=4323293&postcount=3
For those interested, I clipped something ghettostudmuffin said about his progress from another thread.
Source Thread: http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showthread.php?t=383357
GhettoStudMuffin said:
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Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n
GLENN PENDLAY INTERVIEW
For anyone interested Glenn is one of the nation's best strength coaches as well as a hell of a strength athlete. He is someone who really knows training and has trained athletes at the highest levels. He is a mod over at Midwest Barbell's Total Elite forum (http://www.midwestbarbell.com/totalelite/) as well as the GoHeavy Olympic Lifting forum which boasts a number of top coaches. He is a man worthy of respect on many levels and not just in the weightroom or coaching.
Enjoy!
http://www.readthecore.com/200503/reynolds-glenn-pendlay.htm
EDIT: - Wow, 4 posts back to back for me. I must be post whoring tonight.
GLENN PENDLAY INTERVIEW
For anyone interested Glenn is one of the nation's best strength coaches as well as a hell of a strength athlete. He is someone who really knows training and has trained athletes at the highest levels. He is a mod over at Midwest Barbell's Total Elite forum (http://www.midwestbarbell.com/totalelite/) as well as the GoHeavy Olympic Lifting forum which boasts a number of top coaches. He is a man worthy of respect on many levels and not just in the weightroom or coaching.
Enjoy!
http://www.readthecore.com/200503/reynolds-glenn-pendlay.htm
EDIT: - Wow, 4 posts back to back for me. I must be post whoring tonight.
wnt2bBeast
New member
Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n
i think a training journal is a great idea..i keep a written one as well as one online at another site..like you said gives others a chance to learn as well as make suggestions and help you progress
Madcow2 said:
i think a training journal is a great idea..i keep a written one as well as one online at another site..like you said gives others a chance to learn as well as make suggestions and help you progress
Carl Carlson
New member
Madcow...
I'm starting week 3 of this routine. I should be setting PR's for my weights.
Unfortunately, when I started this program a few weeks ago I was just coming off of being sick for 2 weeks (and dropping ~10 lbs). Once I was feeling better, I went in the gym and just lifted light to see where my strength was... as you can imagine, it was way down.
I took this into consideration when picking my target weights for each week. For instance, let's say before I got sick, my 1x5 for bench was probably 225, but after being sick it was down to ~185.
The problem is my strength has returned fairly quickly now and I'm back to where I was before I got sick... but the program is setup with lighter weights. Should I continue as is (and add a couple weeks to the volume phase until I catch up to my PR's) or should I increase the weight this week to jump up to my PR?
Other than that, the program is going really well and I like it a lot.
I'm starting week 3 of this routine. I should be setting PR's for my weights.
Unfortunately, when I started this program a few weeks ago I was just coming off of being sick for 2 weeks (and dropping ~10 lbs). Once I was feeling better, I went in the gym and just lifted light to see where my strength was... as you can imagine, it was way down.
I took this into consideration when picking my target weights for each week. For instance, let's say before I got sick, my 1x5 for bench was probably 225, but after being sick it was down to ~185.
The problem is my strength has returned fairly quickly now and I'm back to where I was before I got sick... but the program is setup with lighter weights. Should I continue as is (and add a couple weeks to the volume phase until I catch up to my PR's) or should I increase the weight this week to jump up to my PR?
Other than that, the program is going really well and I like it a lot.
Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n
That's the real question because we don't exactly know how taxing this workout is for you since there is no reference point. BTW - strength does return very quickly as a rule. Anyway, if the load from the first few weeks wasn't very significant (keep in mind you are squating 3x per week and doing a host of other stuff so it's likely at least moderately taxing) you could just extend to 6 weeks and continue ramping. That said, if it was you are going to begin to overtrain without reaching records and getting the opportunity to push yourself and really load heavily with more intense weights.
One option in this situation is take as little time as possible to get to your records. Maybe shooting for 5 weeks total - 6 if you have to. If week 4 is close to a record or just pretty strenuous and you end up really pushing only on week 5 then so be it, the program is good enough that you will still get very solid results and be setup for future training cycles with a relevant reference (it would be a shitty program to have to hit everything perfect).
If you are confident that the weights were set light enough to not overly stress you one the way up (keep in mind you were still training with a load that was significant to your then current max and state of body) then simply going to 6 wouldn't be a big deal.
The bummer is that you have no relevant frame of reference. I'd likely just opt for 6, hope for the best, and if your strength begins to drop off for more than just a single bad day workout (the limits of over-reaching and the beginning of true overtraining) begin the deload immediately.
Carl Carlson said:
That's the real question because we don't exactly know how taxing this workout is for you since there is no reference point. BTW - strength does return very quickly as a rule. Anyway, if the load from the first few weeks wasn't very significant (keep in mind you are squating 3x per week and doing a host of other stuff so it's likely at least moderately taxing) you could just extend to 6 weeks and continue ramping. That said, if it was you are going to begin to overtrain without reaching records and getting the opportunity to push yourself and really load heavily with more intense weights.
One option in this situation is take as little time as possible to get to your records. Maybe shooting for 5 weeks total - 6 if you have to. If week 4 is close to a record or just pretty strenuous and you end up really pushing only on week 5 then so be it, the program is good enough that you will still get very solid results and be setup for future training cycles with a relevant reference (it would be a shitty program to have to hit everything perfect).
If you are confident that the weights were set light enough to not overly stress you one the way up (keep in mind you were still training with a load that was significant to your then current max and state of body) then simply going to 6 wouldn't be a big deal.
The bummer is that you have no relevant frame of reference. I'd likely just opt for 6, hope for the best, and if your strength begins to drop off for more than just a single bad day workout (the limits of over-reaching and the beginning of true overtraining) begin the deload immediately.
JKurz1
Banned
---5X5---
Monday: Squats, Bench, Rows
Weds: Bench, Military Presses, Deadlifts, Chins
Friday: Squats, Bench, Rows
say I start this today with the above outline............
Let's say my max 5 rep bench is 225, max sqat is 400 and max row is 185 for rounding sakes
is this what i do?
BENCH 185X5, 190X5, 200X5, 215X5, 220X5?
SQUAT 400X5 1 SET
ROW 185 X 5 1 SET
THEN ON WED - REDUCE BY 10-20%
THEN FRIDAY, TRY TO SURPASS THE 225 MARK?
Monday: Squats, Bench, Rows
Weds: Bench, Military Presses, Deadlifts, Chins
Friday: Squats, Bench, Rows
say I start this today with the above outline............
Let's say my max 5 rep bench is 225, max sqat is 400 and max row is 185 for rounding sakes
is this what i do?
BENCH 185X5, 190X5, 200X5, 215X5, 220X5?
SQUAT 400X5 1 SET
ROW 185 X 5 1 SET
THEN ON WED - REDUCE BY 10-20%
THEN FRIDAY, TRY TO SURPASS THE 225 MARK?
Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n
Not sure if you saw the above answer:http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showpost.php?p=4632776&postcount=148
Also, you are training right at your maxes in week 1. This is where you want to be in week 3/4 (or slightly above). There is no room to ramp the weights under this initial weight selection unless your maxes are inaccruate:
In looking at this - you're missing a lot of info that's covered in detail in this thread.
1) Weights are ramped to records so you have to start lighter and conservatively
2) Mondays generally have squats for 5x5 (not 1x5 for a working set weight not a single set). I don't see anything being done for 5x5 on Monday
3) The other two exercises are pyramided (usually bench/rows for 5 total sets).
4) Wednesday is a totally different workout where you are scaling other exercises (DL, Military, chins) to 5x5 goals in weeks 3/4. The only exception to this is the squats which are performed for 5x5 at a working set weight 10-20% less than Monday's squat.
5) Friday is the inverse of Monday (i.e. if Monday was squat 5x5, bench 1x5, and row 1x5 then Friday is Squat 1x5, bench 5x5, row 5x5). In addition, you have a totally separate goal in week 3/4 for your 1x5 verions than your 5x5 versions. These weights are independent and ramp separately.
So, the first Monday might look like this given your listed maxes (really rough and fast):
SQUAT warm up to 315 for 5x5 (weight will increase to goal 5x5 in week 3/4)
BENCH 135x5, 145x5, 165x5, 175x5, 190x5 (top set of 5 increases to goal in week 3/4)
ROW 100x5, 115x5, 125x5, 140x5, 155x5 (top set of 5 increases to goal in week 3/4)
In all honesty, I don't know whether you typed this out in haste and just weren't clear or you just missed a bunch of stuff (no offense intended I'm just wondering how you came away with this or if it's just miscommunication). This workout is fairly simple but it is very different from the standard (and largely ineffective) BBing workouts so it's going to take some investment of time to read through everything to make sure you have it right. Page 1 in this thread is critical - it contains not 1 but 3 separate explanations of this program from 3 separate individuals. I'd sit down and focus on them jotting notes on a pad as there are some tid bits and hints that appear in 1 but don't appear in others but nonetheless the core is well explained in each. In addition, some of this material is geared to adjusting on the fly, likely mistakes, what happens should one fail. I would also read through the rest of this thread as many questions have been brought forward and answered in a fair amount of depth and I believe most of the points I raised have been questioned and explained.
JKurz1 said:
Not sure if you saw the above answer:http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showpost.php?p=4632776&postcount=148
Also, you are training right at your maxes in week 1. This is where you want to be in week 3/4 (or slightly above). There is no room to ramp the weights under this initial weight selection unless your maxes are inaccruate:
In looking at this - you're missing a lot of info that's covered in detail in this thread.
1) Weights are ramped to records so you have to start lighter and conservatively
2) Mondays generally have squats for 5x5 (not 1x5 for a working set weight not a single set). I don't see anything being done for 5x5 on Monday
3) The other two exercises are pyramided (usually bench/rows for 5 total sets).
4) Wednesday is a totally different workout where you are scaling other exercises (DL, Military, chins) to 5x5 goals in weeks 3/4. The only exception to this is the squats which are performed for 5x5 at a working set weight 10-20% less than Monday's squat.
5) Friday is the inverse of Monday (i.e. if Monday was squat 5x5, bench 1x5, and row 1x5 then Friday is Squat 1x5, bench 5x5, row 5x5). In addition, you have a totally separate goal in week 3/4 for your 1x5 verions than your 5x5 versions. These weights are independent and ramp separately.
So, the first Monday might look like this given your listed maxes (really rough and fast):
SQUAT warm up to 315 for 5x5 (weight will increase to goal 5x5 in week 3/4)
BENCH 135x5, 145x5, 165x5, 175x5, 190x5 (top set of 5 increases to goal in week 3/4)
ROW 100x5, 115x5, 125x5, 140x5, 155x5 (top set of 5 increases to goal in week 3/4)
In all honesty, I don't know whether you typed this out in haste and just weren't clear or you just missed a bunch of stuff (no offense intended I'm just wondering how you came away with this or if it's just miscommunication). This workout is fairly simple but it is very different from the standard (and largely ineffective) BBing workouts so it's going to take some investment of time to read through everything to make sure you have it right. Page 1 in this thread is critical - it contains not 1 but 3 separate explanations of this program from 3 separate individuals. I'd sit down and focus on them jotting notes on a pad as there are some tid bits and hints that appear in 1 but don't appear in others but nonetheless the core is well explained in each. In addition, some of this material is geared to adjusting on the fly, likely mistakes, what happens should one fail. I would also read through the rest of this thread as many questions have been brought forward and answered in a fair amount of depth and I believe most of the points I raised have been questioned and explained.
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