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Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up now!

Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n

brother_swole said:
My first question is what can I sub. for weighted dips?
My home gym has a ton of items BUT NO dip rack for now..
Click to expand...

At home there ar many things you can use to do dips. Like 2 chairs with weights on them so they don't move. or a counter top and one chair, or the bench in the garage and a chair, or if you have a countertop that comes to an angle. Or even 2 saw horeses or something similar. Just be creative.
 
Man this site is "off the map"
There is more hardcore stuff here than I can handle......
I cant wait to start this program.......

Thanks again all.....

Brother_Swole
 
Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... One last question

One last question:

what and where iwould it be best to insert to effective not maintainence calf work in the scheme of this fine program?

Thank in advance all,

Brother_Swole
 
You shouldn't need extra work for your calves with all the squatting. Throw two or three sets in on Monday or Friday if you feel the need and have the energy spare.
 
Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... REPLY

After being forced into a sedentary lifestyle for over a year (Medical-blood clot "D.V.T.") energy is not an issue....

Thanks,

Brother_Swole
 
Careful, though, that you don't work them to the extent that it weakens your squat. If you weaken your squat then you throw away much of what the program has to offer.
 
I'll be sure to keep it as you suggested

Mon/Fri 3 sets

I'll even do'em in a light one day and med. heavy style the other....

Thanks again bro.


Brother_Swole
 
Yep, Slyder's got another Q for madcow. An easy one though. Can 5x5 be run back to back? The Core DFHT was too much volume and wasn't good for me. I was wondering before I try and configure my own program, if doing another immediate run of 5x5 was a good or bad idea. Of course I don't ecpect the same type of progress as my first run, but, yay or nay?
 
Definitely, yes. If you finish the first feeling loaded, though, then you should take a deload week between them to start the second one feeling fresh. The great thing about running them back-to-back is that on the second run you have no need to guess your values for week 3 since you can just look back a few weeks.

Madcow has said pretty much that in this monster thread somewhere if you care to go find it :).

He doesn't seem to have been around for a few days, though.
 
Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n

NEW TOC TEMPLATE

------------------

Content by Madcow2
Last Revised 12/27/2005

UPDATE - I have updated program descriptions, template downloads, and an updated Table of Contents on my Geocities site (i.e. lots more topics and better organization). This will be the final update of this TOC in the thread (and it's an incomplete one because there's just too much) but the one on that site essentially links all the topics below and more, many of which come to this very thread. This is easier on me and the better descriptions with charts and better layout are easier on you.




Table of Contents for this Thread:

Part I - The Program
Part II - Exercise Descriptions
Part III - Some General Pieces
PART IV - A Few Other Programs
PART V - Sources for Knowledge, Interviews, Articles



PART I: The Program


Dual Factor/Periodized for Advanced:
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showpost.php?p=4764723&postcount=381

Intermediate Lifter Version – Single Factor/Linear:
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showpost.php?p=4497774&postcount=15

Dual Factor Theory - Why this Works:
(The further one progresses the more critical it becomes to understand basic training concepts like this. If you aren't familiar with this, it is absolutely essential. This is how top athletes in sport are trained the world over and this includes adding LBM in addition to strength, speed, and power.)
http://www.higher-faster-sports.com/PlannedOvertraining.html
http://forum.mesomorphosis.com/showpost.php?p=48&postcount=3

Weight Selection/Time Between Sets/Exercise Substitution:
(The long and short is Important/Take what you need/Don't fuck with this especially the squats. Adding some arm work once a week is fine. Subbing incline for standing military is fine. Adding core work and doing cardio is fine. Do not sub in a machine variant unless you are injured or over 65.)
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showthread.php?t=372686
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showthread.php?t=371821
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showpost.php?p=4646743&postcount=201

Some Results From Members:
(Note, far too much to keep track of at this point. There are basically just the first people who used the 5x5 programs here at Elitefitness. Also there are tons of logs and other info on this site now so just browse around or run a search)
blut wump: http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showpost.php?p=4623386&postcount=125
super_rice: http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showpost.php?p=4631651&postcount=140
Ghettostudmuffin:...Week 5: http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showpost.php?p=4633372&postcount=154
...........................Week 6: http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showpost.php?p=4636680&postcount=166
BionicBC: http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showpost.php?p=4734736&postcount=345
Ceasar989:....http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showpost.php?p=4643420&postcount=185
...................http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showpost.php?p=4690062&postcount=289
Jim Quini: http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showpost.php?p=4886638&postcount=523

Why Haven’t Most BBers Heard of This Type of Training if It’s so Commonly Used Around the World for Athletics, Powerlifting, and Olympic Lifting?
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showpost.php?p=4627437&postcount=133
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showpost.php?p=4658210&postcount=234

Beyond the 5x5 – Planning Your Training Cycles:
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showpost.php?p=4643459&postcount=186





PART II: Exercise Descriptions

Correct Way to Perform Barbell Rows:
(2 Variations – the one at the bottom of page 1 is best)
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showthread.php?t=366601
Links to pics: http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showpost.php?p=4697367&postcount=301

The Only Shrug – The Power Shrug:
(Toss out the bullshit standard shrug - enjoy big increases in the mirror and increase your explosive power all at once)
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showpost.php?p=4712284&postcount=319

The Snatch:
One of the best exercises for developing power - I believe Arioch wrote this originally
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showpost.php?p=4846039&postcount=428

Some General Exercise Description and Video Links:
Very detailed Squat, Deadlift, and Benchpress descriptions are stickied in the PLing forum these are 'must reads' for every lifter:
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=7
Videos:
http://www.uwlax.edu/strengthcenter/videos/video_index.htm
http://www.joeskopec.com/assist.html
http://www.bsu.edu/webapps/strengthlab/Home.htm





PART III: Some General Pieces

Why Speed/Acceleration is Critical in Lifting:
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showpost.php?p=4624616&postcount=62

Why A Bodypart Split/Frequency is Insufficient -
Or - "How Many Times Should I Hit a Muscle Each Week":
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showpost.php?p=4776914&postcount=386

The Deadlift and Recovery
Increasing the Deadlift Without Deadlifting - Take 2
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showpost.php?p=4783202&postcount=388

Diet and Training - Caloric Excess
This is the only thing I'm writing on diet - more than enough other sources out there
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showpost.php?p=4866519&postcount=465






PART IV: A Few Other Programs

Glenn Pendlay on Mark Ripptoe’s Squat Program for New Lifters:
(routinely gets 30-40lbs of bodyweight increase within 6 months)
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showpost.php?p=4658227&postcount=235

Smolov Squat Cycle:
(Considered the holy grail of squat programs - very demanding)
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showpost.php?p=4610310&postcount=107

Dual Factor Hypertrophy Training:
Courtesy of Matt Reynolds
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showpost.php?p=4844603&postcount=423
Word Doc: http://www.geocities.com/elitemadcow1/Dual_Factor_Hypertrophy_Training.doc




PART V: Sources for Knowledge, Interviews, Articles, Tools

Interview with Strength Coach Glenn Pendlay:
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showpost.php?p=4633481&postcount=155

Interview with Strength Coach Mark Rippetoe:
http://www.readthecore.com/200507/trenches.htm

Pendlay and Rippetoe on Programing:
http://www.readthecore.com/200510/markr.htm

Renowned Speed Coach Charlie Francis on HIT:
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showpost.php?p=4678430&postcount=285

WSB Louie Simmons – What a Gym Needs:
http://www.deepsquatter.com/strength/archives/ls8.htm

Prilepin's Table:
A good illustration of the interplay between volume and intensity
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showpost.php?p=4776937&postcount=387

1RM Equations and Estimates:
To help estimate a 1RM, 5RM or whatever
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showpost.php?p=4786862&postcount=393

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 
Question for the single-factor masters: I reread this post on tolerating workload from the 5x5 TOC (http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showpost.php?p=5138540&postcount=842). I'm wondering when/if I should increase my training volume. I'm making good progress and am into my 8th week of the SF 5x5. Lifts are going up slowly but surely. My workouts are pretty damn easy though b/c really only the last set or two are difficult b/c I'm ramping per the SF version. I thought adding volume was one way to help you progress further and that you'd just add it in as it became necessary. But in the post linked above, it kinda' seems like increasing your work capacity is something we ought to do as well. So . . . do I start adding more volume only when I absolutely have to or should I think about adding more now and making my workouts a little more difficult?
 
Work capacity increases gradually over time. That said, the goal is to move more weight not do more work so if lifts are rising consistently - don't fix what isn't broken. To a degree it's a lot like anything else, if you want to become a better golfer, playing 1x per week will really have an impact and help you. But you can bet that very good golfers practice and devote quite a bit of time to it, just playing 18 holes once a week doesn't get them where they want to be but obviously some will do better than others and a few could even become very solid players like this.

Where this example breaks down is that you can tolerate a lot of golf but not so much resistance exercise near maximal efforts. Then again just like in golf you develop calouses on your hands and get conditioned to swinging the club a lot - very similar to building tolerance to workload. Just rambling but you get the idea, workload is stimulus but the goal is improvement not workload so you apply as much stimulus as appropriate for the goal at hand. This is actually where HIT gets the idea right in that you want to progress as often as possible and beat on your body as little as possible to allow for optimal progression. Where I think a lot of them get lost is in adhering to ultra-low volume and the "failure as a goal" type training irregardless of all else. But efficiency and progression is very much key.
 
Totally case by case but for most here I'd lean towards no, unless it's in the initial couple of weeks. I also assume we are talking the linear/intermediate/single factor program?
 
If you miss Friday's workout and are gone for the weekend, should you still increase your weights the following Monday?
Click to expand...

ah - good question ! i got the same problem - around once a month i can only pratice 2 times a week.
I would like to fuse the wednesday/friday plan a little bit together for the second training. So i would do essentially the wednesday program, but with the Friday Squats (with heavy triple), and doing the Friday rows (with heavy triple) instead of the optional chins. That would leave only the bench undone, but i dont have any problem with my bench so it seems ok.
Do you think that would work ? With the option to increase the weight on Monday again if it feels good ? Or is it too much doing squats/ dls/ rows on one day ?
Otherwise that would only leave skipping the Friday entirely and keeping the weight for one more week constant like you already said ... All SF, of course.

Thanks !

BTW, going really great thus far with the SF 5x5 ! :)
 
I'd probably offset the workout to another day if you were doing that. Probably M/R or something along those lines. It might be a hard workout but the big issue is workload over a period so one harder day doesn't really mean a lot in isolation - plus there is built in rest since you are doing less work over the week with more total recovery time.
 
By the way, for anyone that cares I did finally put the spreadsheet templates up on my Geocities site.

Obviously, they are useless for those who can already setup the program properly (there might be some useful 1RM conversions to take away though), but for someone just beginning to look at these it can be pretty helpful to see how everything might lay out and have confidence that you didn't miss something huge. Of course, training is ideally fairly individual so this is not something you use as a hard rule or run the same thing continually without thought, just a tool to help understand and check over an initial layout. Far too many assumptions in spreadsheets like this that will be unrealistic or very suboptimal depending on a given individual.


Intermediate/Linear Program with Template Download:
http://www.geocities.com/elitemadcow1/5x5_Program/Linear_5x5.htm

Advanced/Periodized Program with Template Download:
http://www.geocities.com/elitemadcow1/5x5_Program/Periodized_5x5.htm

Main Site/Table of Contents:
http://www.geocities.com/elitemadcow1/table_of_contents_thread.htm

I'm also doing some final updates on this thread's TOC and the core programs in here for those who have been provided direct links. I did the TOC, just need to knock out the 2 programs.

I also have to do some kind of beginner's program and then a comparison page on my site but after that, this stuff is materially finished.
 
I am wrapping up the final week of 5x5. I am gonna do another run with it right away. How do I deload though after week 9 before starting up again?
 
slyder190 said:
I am wrapping up the final week of 5x5. I am gonna do another run with it right away. How do I deload though after week 9 before starting up again?
Click to expand...


won't the first two weeks be with weights below your PR's and hence it will be a natural deload. of course a week out the gym might help if you feel a very fatigued at this point.
 
Numani said:
won't the first two weeks be with weights below your PR's and hence it will be a natural deload. of course a week out the gym might help if you feel a very fatigued at this point.
Click to expand...

I appreciate your reply, but I'm lookin for madcow or Blutwump to hit me up on this one.
 
slyder190 said:
I appreciate your reply, but I'm lookin for madcow or Blutwump to hit me up on this one.
Click to expand...
Assuming you peaked out with weeks 8/9 of heavy records in the triples training 3x per week - a lot of people need a moderate week or so before pushing hard again. See how you feel, if 1 week of light training is enough then move back into the volume phase. There's really so much you could do and it really depends on just how beat up you are and what it takes to beat you up/recover.
 
Madcow2 said:
Assuming you peaked out with weeks 8/9 of heavy records in the triples training 3x per week - a lot of people need a moderate week or so before pushing hard again. See how you feel, if 1 week of light training is enough then move back into the volume phase. There's really so much you could do and it really depends on just how beat up you are and what it takes to beat you up/recover.
Click to expand...

Well I'm still on a cycle right now. What I wanted to know though was what your recomendation would be if I were natural regardless. Basically, what do mou recomend for a moderate week? Do I go back to doing 5 sets of 5 and 1 max set of 5 like in the volume phase, but with a reduced weight percentage like 80%? Or what is the deal exactly? What should the deload week or two after week 9 look like? I'm not sure what the workouts should look like or what the weights should look like.
 
slyder190 said:
What should the deload week or two after week 9 look like? I'm not sure what the workouts should look like or what the weights should look like.
Click to expand...
At some point you're gonna have to figure out what it feels like to be fatigued and how to go about transitioning from one phase to the next. Try it and see. If it's too much and you have to deload early, then you'll inow for the future. If you step right back into volume and run the whole thing w/out issue, then you'll know that you'd be unlikely to need an extra 'recuperation/deload' week.

Just do something and learn from it. You can't learn everything by reading.
 
ive been deloading every 3-4 weeks by doin speed work so my 9 week of 5x5 is actually 12 weeks.

on the deloading i work out 2x a week, so itll be like

mon:

box squats - 9x3
dip - 4x4
speed bench 9x3

thurs:

speed deads/cleans - 9x3
ohp 5x5, 3x3 (w/bands)

then continue about the regular 5x5 week
 
Guinness5.0 said:
At some point you're gonna have to figure out what it feels like to be fatigued and how to go about transitioning from one phase to the next. Try it and see. If it's too much and you have to deload early, then you'll inow for the future. If you step right back into volume and run the whole thing w/out issue, then you'll know that you'd be unlikely to need an extra 'recuperation/deload' week.

Just do something and learn from it. You can't learn everything by reading.
Click to expand...

Guninnes, solid advice as always my friend. it's a tough call right now, because I'm still on my cycle. I could have busted out more than 3 reps for bench and 3x3 for squats for sure in this final week. (2 more workouts left). Could I go right back into a volume phase? Maybe. While I do like to take advantage of the benefits of my cycle, I still like to take a little deload or down time all the same to give my body a "rest", shall we say (or shall we just say deload). I know my body well enough to know that (at least naturally speaking anyway) A deload here would do me good. Hopefully madcow can chime in here and give me an example. K 2 ya Guiness. And even though I don't think Oak hit the nail on the head for me, K to you as well for lending advice from your personal experience.
 
There are more ways of deloading than dropping down to two workouts per week.

My own way of judging when loading is happening is that the sets and reps become more a matter of willpower than of strength. Whether you get loaded this week is mostly a matter of how hard you pushed yourself last week to make new 3x3 and 1x3 PRs and how hard you push this week. You might even finish the week not loaded in which case you have the choice of going to a tenth week or diving sraight back into a fresh week 1 and new program.

Assuming you do finish this week loaded, then it makes sense to take a recovery week. The essence of any recovery week is that you aren't working as hard as before it. That might involve dropping down to doubles rather than triples or it might involve dropping the weights down to 50% and doing some speed work.

Personally, I like to take a chance to work on some exercises I've missed out on for a while. Maybe do some front squats or incline DB work and a bit of arm work, which I tend to neglect usually. Maybe take a chance to work on some cleans. You get the idea.

Like madcow says, it entirely depends on how deeply you're into loading from the intensity phase and how long you, personally, take to recover from these last two weeks of the program. Given the enhanced recovery from being on a cycle, I'd expect that one week of lighter 8-10 rep work and some fresh exercises over two or three days as you see fit would leave you ready to dive straight back into a fresh run.
 
blut wump said:
There are more ways of deloading than dropping down to two workouts per week.

My own way of judging when loading is happening is that the sets and reps become more a matter of willpower than of strength. Whether you get loaded this week is mostly a matter of how hard you pushed yourself last week to make new 3x3 and 1x3 PRs and how hard you push this week. You might even finish the week not loaded in which case you have the choice of going to a tenth week or diving sraight back into a fresh week 1 and new program.

Assuming you do finish this week loaded, then it makes sense to take a recovery week. The essence of any recovery week is that you aren't working as hard as before it. That might involve dropping down to doubles rather than triples or it might involve dropping the weights down to 50% and doing some speed work.

Personally, I like to take a chance to work on some exercises I've missed out on for a while. Maybe do some front squats or incline DB work and a bit of arm work, which I tend to neglect usually. Maybe take a chance to work on some cleans. You get the idea.

Like madcow says, it entirely depends on how deeply you're into loading from the intensity phase and how long you, personally, take to recover from these last two weeks of the program. Given the enhanced recovery from being on a cycle, I'd expect that one week of lighter 8-10 rep work and some fresh exercises over two or three days as you see fit would leave you ready to dive straight back into a fresh run.
Click to expand...

I kind of get more af an idea now. I know Blutwump that your very familiar with this routine. I might just keep a the volume the same as week 9 and drop the weight used, and maybe just hit doubles instead of triples. Then I'll go back in to loading again. Lookin forward to it. Only thing that sucks, I gotta be honest here, is the 100 warm up sets that have to be done for squats. I feel like I'm in the power rack for a day. I guess that's the price of lifting heavy, or lifting smart shall I say.
 
A lot of ways to do it but it boils down to less stress on the system (and not just weight training, everything imposes some kind of tax, i.e. marital strife/stress, but high intensity effort like max sprinting or weightlifting are big ones and more common here). Maybe that's lowering volume very significantly but raising intensity incrementally (maybe slash frequency too as this is the main differentiator in the two "canned" options for the peaking phase). Maybe that's everything lower. Maybe that's just the intensity. It depends on what you need and want to accomplish. In addition, one person's deloading might be very stressful for someone else with lower work capacity so this is really on you (just keep in mind anabolics increase your tolerances so what might be appropriate now might not work as a natural or might be suboptimal if you increase your dosage - which is why aside from all else drugs tend complicate this specifically for those without a good natural reference).
 
I've been thinking about workload, volume, and hitting PRs on the SF 5x5 and I'm wondering about something -- if the goal on the SF 5x5 is hitting PRs on a regular basis, why not drop one or two of the easy earlier sets, the thought being you're not really getting much out of them and you'd have more gas in the tank to push harder on the last PR set? I don't mean skimp on warming up, I just mean that some of the 5x5 sets are pretty darn easy as you ramp up . . . and I don't fully understand the reasoning for keeping them. If you just want to get the extra workload/volume, you could just add a backoff set after your 5th set . . .

For example, here's my last squat progression: 5x95, 5x115, 5x135, 5x160, 3-5x180. I actually start w/ the bar, then do some light stretching, then go at it. But the 115 set seems like pretty much a throw-away set. I mean, if the point is to push the last set, I'm just trying to figure out why not reduce the volume by dropping a set or reducing the reps in some of the sets, etc., in order to push the 5th set farther. Like I said, if you're worried about losing the volume, you could add in a back-off set or something. I'm not saying I'm right, I'm just trying to think it through.

I guess this is really just a question of why pyramid the weights. I know lots of people frown on pyramiding b/c you expend energy as you pyramid up to the real working sets. So some people recommend warming up, then maybe a few reps of increasing weight to get ready for heavier weights, then doing your worksets, and maybe pyramiding DOWN if you're into that kinda' thing. LoL
 
Well that's generally the first thing I suggest when it gets hard or a lift stalls in a linear setting, drop some of the early volume and just get up to weight, maybe that's 3x5 and maybe later that's 1x5 at the top until you can't go anymore. This can be especially helpful if in the case of one lift stalling before others, maybe it buys you a few weeks and keeps everything together. Maybe not :) As for the backoff set, usually there is at least some parity in your lifts so dropping some volume all around is probably a decent idea when things get very hard so you can go lift by lift and likely benefit from not adding in backoff sets as you will benefit from a bit less fatigue and maybe extend your progression a bit.
 
So it's to be expected then, right? As PRs get harder, reducing the volume is part of the programming to keep the weights moving up. I guess I'm reaching that point in my squat, almost there w/ bench, but still chugging along on DL, militaries, and rows. Thanks for clarifying, madcow.
 
Yeah but don't cut volume just because you have to work hard, cut it because you need it to keep the progression going a bit longer.
 
madcow2 said:
don't cut volume just because you have to work hard, cut it because you need it to keep the progression going a bit longer.
Click to expand...

LoL Not a problem. If anything, I was thinking of reducing volume in the 'easy' sets in order to have more gas for the heavier sets.
 
Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n

Protobuilder said:
LoL Not a problem. If anything, I was thinking of reducing volume in the 'easy' sets in order to have more gas for the heavier sets.
Click to expand...

That's what I meant, just don't do this before you really need to.
 
I'm actually takin a full week off as I just wrapped up week 9. My back has been botherin me, but I've been throwin back the Motrin before my workouts and gettin through them. The strength gains have been great, just like last time. But as i get heavier with the weight, it does take a toll on a sore back. Hopefully a week off and a few chiro visits will do the trick. Gonna be startin the volume phase again soon.

madcow, explain somethin to me. My last week, I nailed my 3RM max easy for bench, but for my 3x3RM I got one set for 2 reps and that was it. Why is that?
 
That could simply be a matter of loading. As loading hits you, a drop in performance is not uncommon.

After my first 5x5 I went in the following week to set a new 1RM PR and couldn't even do a single with the weight from the 1x3 of the week9. This is why madcow has suggested taking an extra day as needed to recover through weeks 8 and 9 and some guys have even deliberately spread 8 and 9 over three weeks.
 
Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n

slyder190 said:
madcow, explain somethin to me. My last week, I nailed my 3RM max easy for bench, but for my 3x3RM I got one set for 2 reps and that was it. Why is that?
Click to expand...

Bad day or fatigue accrual. By the end of week 9 in the periodized version running at 3x per week, you are going to be pretty trashed. Then again, could be an off day - probably not though. Take a week or so of reduced volume before starting again (i.e. do rep or speed work 2x per week, work on any isolation stuff you feel might be lacking and would get you made fun of during a training cycle :))

slyder190 said:
I'm actually takin a full week off as I just wrapped up week 9. My back has been botherin me, but I've been throwin back the Motrin before my workouts and gettin through them. The strength gains have been great, just like last time. But as i get heavier with the weight, it does take a toll on a sore back. Hopefully a week off and a few chiro visits will do the trick. Gonna be startin the volume phase again soon.
Click to expand...

If you've run this a few times through maybe try a different template and some higher reps for a bit. HST is a fairly nice structure (obviously you will have to choose the # of sets and not go 1 set all the way through) and gives you some time at a variety of rep ranges and high at the beginning to give you a break. Plus the power and neural adaptations from the 5x5 will really scale into these higher reps. DFHT is also a cookie cutter model that might work but workload is high so use your head when setting it up (i.e. 2 people that loved this program had completely opposite experiences on it, one did fabulous and one was too fatigued by it, didn't get much results due to this, and had a bad experience purely due to workload).
 
For the single-factor or for just general training philosophy:


When failure on one exercise (i.e. rows) is reached and continues for 2 weeks -meaning it's time to ramp down and start progressive overload from a new point- should this be done for ALL exercises or just the rows?
 
Just the rows. From what I've read madcow saying before, if only one exercise is stalling, just tinker w/ that exercise. If you start to miss on multiple exercises, you may be overreaching and may need to take a more drastic step. But if just one exercise is stalling, you can adjust some variables to keep progress going. I think reramping and dropping weights is only ONE option. Another option is reducing volume on your other 4 sets or w/e, leaving more gas in the tank for your last set.

Straight from Glenn Pendlay's mouth (paraphrased): make the smallest change necessary to keep progress going.
 
Protobuilder said:
Just the rows. From what I've read madcow saying before, if only one exercise is stalling, just tinker w/ that exercise. If you start to miss on multiple exercises, you may be overreaching and may need to take a more drastic step. But if just one exercise is stalling, you can adjust some variables to keep progress going. I think reramping and dropping weights is only ONE option. Another option is reducing volume on your other 4 sets or w/e, leaving more gas in the tank for your last set.

Straight from Glenn Pendlay's mouth (paraphrased): make the smallest change necessary to keep progress going.
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Progress as in simply adding a heavier amount of weight to use? I ask this because say an individual starts failing on rows and they start decreasing the volume and using a higher weight, what should their "progress" be for the next week? Using the same weight while slowly adding more volume? Or should they continue w/ the same volume and increasing weight or should they keep decreasing volume and adding more weight or what?
 
Another question:


As of right now, I'm trying to decide whether or not I should change my diet to start bulking. I just got back from my dermatologist about what it is I can do about redundant skin, and he said that to continue cutting would be pointless since I need to fill it in with muscle in order for abs and super-ripped definition to come in. I've lost 130 pounds in the past year and am, for obvious reasons, extremely hesitant about the concept of gearing my goals toward gaining weight.

My question is basically this: Can one successfully bulk on a ketogenic diet? Right, caloric excess is the most important thing, but on a ketogenic diet with a Sunday carb-up, can I expect to see good results in terms of muscle gain (since apparently that's the most important thing right now towards me getting ripped). I want to keep fat-gain to a minimum and don't want my dieting to be any easier than it has been, I simply want results.
 
siamesedream said:
Progress as in simply adding a heavier amount of weight to use? I ask this because say an individual starts failing on rows and they start decreasing the volume and using a higher weight, what should their "progress" be for the next week? Using the same weight while slowly adding more volume? Or should they continue w/ the same volume and increasing weight or should they keep decreasing volume and adding more weight or what?
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good question. LoL I've kinda' wondered about this myself . . . I've tried keeping the 5th set weight the same and adding the volume back in (so I'm doing 5 full sets of 5 rather than reducing the volume on the 4th set), and I've tried just pushing the last set up and keeping the volume reduced on the 4th set. I'm not sure which is "right" but I figure it'd be the latter. Wait for madcow's response.
 
The juice in the linear program is always the top set. Generally one lift or so fails before the others, sometimes you can drop some volume from the early sets and buy yourself some extra progression on the top end. Sometimes, you might have to drop the reps down on the top set if that doesn't do enough. More than anything, this is to be used to keep the lifts in sync (i.e. if your squat, dead, and military are increasing why start over just because the bench failed - that's horribly inefficient). Failing that or if the difference is massive, drop back in the compromised lift and deal with it in isolation. Basically, you don't want to sabatoge the whole program's progression due to 1 or 2 lifts if the others are still moving for you.

For the diet question, I always liken caloric requirements to a wavy line with a lot of noise and volatility (and assume there is no magic in prediction other than making sure you eat post workout just to make it clear). If you feed yourself right at the average there will be a lot of points above and below your feeding - obviously you won't be meeting needs when the wavy line drifts above so you sacrifice some potential gain there. Eating above all the peaks makes sure you always have enough to deal with any spikes in requirement but obviously this is a higher average so needs for growth are always met but fat accumulation is much more likely since there will be a lot of periods where your intake is far above the wavy requirement line. Basically it comes down to how well are you going to meet the body's needs, the lower you are on average the more times you don't have sufficient intake to meet the spikes. You can't predict the state of the body on an hourly or daily basis so your intake is an average - if you eat at the margin or misestimate your caloric requirement this cuts into your potential gains or erodes them. I think this is the easiest way to understand this stuff.
 
Alright, I've decided then to simply do a real bulking diet. Still, how much cardio can I get away with? Would 1000-2000 calories burned a week on cardio alone be okay? I'm around 180 pounds, and was thinking eating 3600-4000 calories while continuing to do a good amount of cardio and situps and want to make sure I don't do so much aerobic activity as to cause my training to be maintenance. I'm used to burning 3200 calories on cardio every week, so 1000-2000 sounds like a small bit to me, but I don't know if it is or not since bulking is an entirely new game to me.
 
To be honest, everyone's base caloric requirement is different even if LBM and activity are equal. Just depends on the body. I also don't like getting too much into diet because people are neurotic and the more micromanagement that they do, the more they tend to screw things up (not in every case, just the vast majority). Visit any diet forum on the net and there will be plenty of psychos willing to help you out and most of these are the 160lbers with low bodyfat, no muscle, and no strength that are convinced they blew their last "clean bulking" cycle by not disolving an extra 5mg of some horse piss under their tongue each day after their 3rd meal which was a very specific 30/40/30 split and high in antioxidants.

For cardio - why don't you just do some intervals 3x a week and call it a day? Doesn't need to be 100% or sprinting, just high bursts interspersed with low period (very much like lifing in sets and thinking this way you likely see why this works). Much better for lifters, muscle, and staying lean. You don't get fat overnight so if it drifts up too high just eat a bit less. I know there's a lot of anxiety as you don't want to become fat again but becoming fat is a lengthy process and if the correct lifestyle is in place it shouldn't be a problem.
 
Hey Madcow, I was just wondering if you had a few more moments to answer some 5x5 questions, if not I understand - you've already helped me out a lot.

Firstly, I have question on why there is 4 weeks of the loading and then 4 weeks of the deload when the dual factor theory says fatigue dissipates 3 times faster than fitness. So how come the program isn't something more like 4 weeks loading and then 2 weeks deload with you instantly trying to get more record lifts (which should be easier since the volume and frequency has been lowered)? Wouldn't after 4 weeks of the deload some of your gains from the volume phase (fitness gains) have been lost? Then after the 2 weeks of deloading and some PR's you might take a week of going light and then jump back into the volume phase, keeping it as close to the 3:1 ratio of fitness to fatigue.

Secondly, what is the point of reducing the reps from 5 to 3? If someone's 5RM was 300 for the Squat, then they went into the deload and was doing 3 reps and managed to get 315 as a 3RM, how would they even know if their 5RM increased? How come the program doesn't just stay at 5 reps during the whole cycle so you can clearly see where you are progressing or lacking without putting numbers into a conversion calculator?
 
Deload is about workload even if weight per lift is higher the total is a lot less lifts.

Think tonnage 100x5x5= 2500lbs while 110x3x3= 990lbs

There really aren't 4 weeks of loading, there are 4 weeks of progression maybe more for someone newer or starting lighter. Probably 2 weeks of peak loading and really the way most guys set it up maybe less. Not many people can tolerate 3 weeks of peak loading which is what that 3:1 is getting at i.e. a lifter with all lifts already in shape.

Anyway the 2nd half training 3x a week with records in 8/9 is really a peaking program based on 3s not pure deload. For pure deload run 2x a week (just longer for a basic peak). So you could run 4 weeks, 2 weeks of deload or less if needed and then step back into 3 hard weeks of volume phase and see how you tolerate it. Fatigue is personal and accumulates according to what you do not just because you have 3 weeks on a time clock.
 
Can someone in this thread critique this workout plan I've been following for a bit over a month? I don't have access to a gym and don't have room to build my own (until I move), so I currently use a backpack and plates to do my own version of the 5x5. This was my plan for the past week, and I add weight to each lift every week. The weight after the exercises are how much I put into the backpack while doing that exercise, obviously. Now that I'm bulking for the first time as of yesterday, I'm going to sub in 100 crunches for the 3 sets of 20 situps.





Plan for week beginning January 3, 2005



Tuesday
1-L Squats 30 lbs. 5x5
Push-ups 45 lbs. 5x5
Chin-ups 12.5 lbs 5x3
Dips 20 lbs. 5x7
Sit-ups 3x20



Thursday
1-L Squats 30 lbs. 4x5
Incline Push-ups 35 lbs. 5x6
Chin-ups 12.5 lbs. 5x3
Curls 75 lbs. 3x5
Sit-ups 3x20



Saturday
1-L Squats 30 lbs. 5x5
Push-ups 45 lbs. 5x5
Chin-ups 12.5 lbs. 5x3
Diamond push-ups 15 lbs 5x7
Sit-ups 3x20



Think I may start an online journal here once I get an approved plan. This week I'm barely completing my pull-ups, so I'll probably keep that the same for next week and ramp back down on it if it fails next week as well.
 
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Push-ups felt way too easy today, so I might start making increases by 7.5-10 lbs. every week instead of just 5 now that I'm bulking. Have gone about a month or so without reaching failure as of now.


Every now and then I like to do one set of normal push-ups to total failure for the mental strength of it in place of one weighted set of push-ups. Hopefully this isn't detrimental to anything.
 
A coupla' SF 5x5 progress questions . . . figured I'd just post 'em here, hope that's OK.

First, the backoff set. Should we bump that up each week even if our ramping weights haven't moved up? For instance, I always move my 5th set up, and sometimes my 4th set so I don't have to make a huge jump, but my 3d set usually stays the same. Should I go ahead and bump up my back off set by 5 lbs? I've been doing 8x135 for several weeks now b/c my 3d set hasn't changed . . . just my 4th and 5th.

Second, bench. If you're adding one rep per workout, and you've attempted to set a new 1x5 max for three sessions now, should you adjust something else or keep going until you can't even add a rep? I've tried 3 times now to get one set at 5x180 . . . first time I got 2x180, then 3x180, and yesterday 4x180 . . . I assume I should just try it again on Monday for 5x180 but this is a SLOW boat to China. Any thoughts? One rep per workout seems awfully slow progress. LoL

Thanks as always.
 
Going from a single at a weight to a triple at that same weight corresponds to approximately a 10% strength increase. My whole first run of the 5x5 took my bench from a 135Kg 1RM to a triple at the same weight and I was pleased. So long as it's going up then you are making progress. You could invest in some of the micro weights to reduce the size of the jumps after making a weight for 5x5.

I just plugged the move from 2 to 4 reps into a calculator and it seems to correspond to about an 8% increase in 1RM. Not bad for two weeks work.
 
Another question for you Madcow, thanks ..

Next week I start my deload, and I'm thinking that since this is my first time on the program I would be better suited starting out with the 2x per week deload/intensity split at first to see how I feel. I can always switch back to the 3x per week intensity phase after right?

Also, about the 2x per week alternate deload, you drop Friday and then assign the 3x3 weights to the Monday's bench and Row which were originally pyramiding .. so would you use the weights you previous used on your friday for 5x5 (since they are lower than monday's 1x5 bench and row weights)?? And also, same with questions, getting rid of Friday gets rid of the 1x5 Squat weight so since I did 255 for 1x5 let's say, and Monday for 5x5 I did 225, I would use the 265 for 3x3 or the 225 for 3x3? I would just hate to go from the heavy weights coming from pyramiding the sets back down to the light weight for 3 sets. Am I making sense? Basically for example, if I got 255 at the end of week 4, I would like to try for 265, then 275, etc - not drop back to 225.

If the 2x/week deload allows less progressive overload then I might just try the 3x/week and just make sure I don't do too much volume.
 
Well, I've gone through my first 5x5 cycle, madcow style. :) And I'm hooked, not to the program, but to what I have learned along the way. I did the Dual Factor version and had the following results:

At 5'8", my weight increased from 185 to 202. A 17 lb. increase with only a moderate increase in bodyfat. I'm definitely satisfied, there. Calipers say I'm around 13-14%. I did not have the calipers when I began, but I am going to guess that I have added 2%, based on previous measurements and experience. At a worse case scenario, I went from 11% to 14%, which would equate to a 9 lb. gain in LBM in 9 weeks. I'll take it and smile.

1RM on bench increased from 275 to 305. I am 32, and this matches my PR I set as a junior in college. Granted, I'm a little heavier now and have ~5% more bodyfat, but frankly, I never thought I would see it happen again. In college, I felt like my shoulder joint was going to come out the back. I felt a LOT more stable this time around. :)

1RM on squat increased from 375 to 405+. I definitely feel like I had 20 lbs. or more and may try again , but 1RM squats aren't something I do very frequently. I know enough to know that my 1RM went up substantially, and that is good enough for me. :)

I will test deadlift later this week and find out how that went. My previous is 425. I REALLY want 455, but we'll see what happens.

Overall, I am absolutely thrilled with it. I am now going to test a higher volume method and see how my body handles it. After that, I will be running through 5x5 again, but I plan on waiting longer to switch to 3x3, if my body allows the extra time. I know for a fact that I had more in reserve when I switched over this time, so I either want to prolong it (my preference) or perhaps start at a slightly higher weight, in comparison to my 5RM. Maybe I'll do a little of both and see what happens.

Overall, I'm happiest with what I have learned. Life is good, and I'm starting a journal this week for my next program. I realize now that I will easily surpass ALL of my lifetime bests this year and reach a lot of goals this year. Thanks to all that I've learned from. ;)
 
Wow! Impressive results. Congrats! I was reading that post, hearing the great results and thinking, "this is some kid, of course he'll get amazing results." But then I saw that you're roughly my age, so there IS hope! Awesome job, man! I'm doing single factor and hoping to make similar progress.

BTW -- anyone know an answer to my Q above on the backoff set?
 
You youngsters! I'm 49 this year.

It's user's choice on the back-off set. The back-off should feel very comfortable compared with what you've just done as a last set. If you bump it and it still feels overly stressful or you're in any danger of failing it then it's probably too heavy.
 
Thanks, Protobuilder! The other great thing about the program is that it is also a blast to go do! One thing that may or may not have had an impact on the results is that there were 3 of us going (my wife and her coworker) through the workout, and we completed every workout within 45 minutes. So, there was no dawdling. Also, I forgot to mention that on Tuesdays and Saturdays, we would go in and do abs, hyperextensions, and some bodyweight based metabolic conditioning...also known as "2-minute hell drills" by various people I have trained. ;) So, my point is that we moved quickly through the workouts and made sure to throw in some enjoyable active recovery during the week. Thursdays and Sundays were completely off.

Incidentally, my beautiful wife made some GREAT strength gains on it while eating above maintenance (gained approximately 4-5 lbs. (after coming off a cutting cycle) with VERY minimal fat gains, ladies...she is still well under 20%), and her coworker lost some fat and got a lot stronger. He looks quite a bit different and more athletic. Successful program for them, too. :)
 
nelmsjer - great results. Your 1RM potential is probably a bit better since it seems you didn't actually do much in the way of actively preparing for it (i.e. doubles/singles to peak). Another thing, seeing 45 minutes for workout time - I'm not sure which version you were doing but if strength is a priority, taking more time between sets can be very beneficial. Granted the 'conditioning' aspect is lessened but resistance/strength training isn't really the place to be doing this type of semi-cardio anyway. Don't be lazy and sit around, but take the time you need for the big sets.

If you are looking for more workload in the first half, the logical extension is to make both M/F 5x5 days with full work sets and no ramping days. I'd be more likely to not change anything the 2nd time through and just use your relevant target lifts and plan on exceeding them in both weeks 3/4 (to where you are pushing at or near 100%). This is something that most don't really do their first time through and it results in less fatigue by design to make sure people don't blow up (i.e. 80% result is better than 10% result). You might also find you are a lot stronger with longer rest periods so factor that into the equation too.

Anyway, some things to think about for the future. Glad you and everyone had a good experience.
 
I'm kinda in the same situation now. I'm on my 4th week of DF 5x5 and and I went from a 205 5RM bench to a 220 5RM bench already. I don't want to deload now because I feel fine and strong so I'm going to just extend the loading period until I feel like I'm over-reaching and that I need to deload. I feel if I deloaded after this week I would be missing out on some gains. Even though I set my previous PR's in Week 3, I started the first 2 weeks pretty light so that is probably why I'm not over-reachin yet - though I feel it has paid off because I'm passing my previous PR's very easily and feel like I can keep going. I guess I should have done SF but oh well it's too late now.
 
madcow, can you tell me if there's anything wrong with this plan of mine? I won't have access to a gym for a while, so, using a backpack and weights, this is the best plan I could come up with. Increases are made every week, and this is my second week of failure on the chin-ups so I'll ramp back down next week on those if failure continues.


Plan for week beginning January 3, 2005



Tuesday
1-L Squats 30 lbs. 5x5
Push-ups 52.5 lbs. 5x5
Chin-ups 12.5 lbs 5x3
Dips 27.5 lbs. 5x5
Sit-ups 110



Thursday
1-L Squats 30 lbs. 4x5
Incline Push-ups 42.5 lbs. 5x5
Chin-ups 12.5 lbs. 5x3
Curls 75 lbs. 3x5
Sit-ups 110



Saturday
1-L Squats 30 lbs. 5x5
Push-ups 52.5 lbs. 5x5
Chin-ups 12.5 lbs. 5x3
Diamond push-ups 15 lbs 5x7
Sit-ups 110
 
Instead of trying to do some dedicated full blown strength program without access to decent equipment, why not do some basic maintenance exercises in some type of 8-12 rep range with what you have and focus your attention on something else for a bit. Maybe conditioning, sprinting, swimming, more endurance type activities, anything. Use this as an excuse to get out and do something else for a bit.
 
Well, I certainly could, but I'm trying to bulk right now. If it's not possible to do so without a gym, I could focus on aerobic conditioning.
 
Well, been trying to get 5x180 on bench for 4 sessions now (running SF 5x5) and tonight I actually got one rep less than last time. I did nothing yesterday so wasn't pre-exhausted or anything.

What do you guys think is the best way to deal w/ this? (a) reramp the bench, or (b) reduce volume in my 3d and 4th set [I'm currently doing 3 reps on my 4th set but I could try doing a single or double on my 3d and 4th set), or (c) try doing a few warmup sets and then maybe 3 sets of 2 w/ my 180 or something . . .

I appreciate everyone's comments and patience! I'm learning this thing . . . and determined to understand it.
 
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Madcow2 said:
nelmsjer - great results. Your 1RM potential is probably a bit better since it seems you didn't actually do much in the way of actively preparing for it (i.e. doubles/singles to peak). Another thing, seeing 45 minutes for workout time - I'm not sure which version you were doing but if strength is a priority, taking more time between sets can be very beneficial. Granted the 'conditioning' aspect is lessened but resistance/strength training isn't really the place to be doing this type of semi-cardio anyway. Don't be lazy and sit around, but take the time you need for the big sets.

If you are looking for more workload in the first half, the logical extension is to make both M/F 5x5 days with full work sets and no ramping days. I'd be more likely to not change anything the 2nd time through and just use your relevant target lifts and plan on exceeding them in both weeks 3/4 (to where you are pushing at or near 100%). This is something that most don't really do their first time through and it results in less fatigue by design to make sure people don't blow up (i.e. 80% result is better than 10% result). You might also find you are a lot stronger with longer rest periods so factor that into the equation too.

Anyway, some things to think about for the future. Glad you and everyone had a good experience.
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Madcow2, you're absolutely correct about a few things on this. I didn't spend any time at all doing doubles or singles, which actually impresses me even more about the program. Right now, I'm just not too interested in 1RM, except to find out how much the program helped improve them. Reading that previous sentence again, it doesn't make a lot of sense. Hmmm... I guess the best way I can explain it is that I tested my 1RM on squat, bench press, and deadlift for the first time in years (literally) before I started the 5x5 program, with the intention of finding out how much strength increases the program would provide (just another part of the experiment and learning process). I already had a good idea it would be good for hypertrophy, so I wanted to find out how good it was at both functions. Again, I'm very pleased.

Regarding the rest times, you are absolutely correct about those, too. My issue is that I am blessed to be in Iraq, where we literally work 12 hours per day, 7 days per week. Going anywhere for lunch (in this case, our workout) requires that we are back within an hour, and we aren't paid for it. I'm up at 0600, at work by 0700, workout at 1300, and am finished with work at 2000. By the time I've gone to get food at the cafeteria and eaten, it is 2100. My wife and I are in bed and asleep by 2200. All that to say that my lunch hour is the only time we have to workout, and unfortunately, longer rest periods are not an option. I know without a shadow of a doubt that my strength increases would have been even better. :)

Regarding your quote:
If you are looking for more workload in the first half, the logical extension is to make both M/F 5x5 days with full work sets and no ramping days. I'd be more likely to not change anything the 2nd time through and just use your relevant target lifts and plan on exceeding them in both weeks 3/4 (to where you are pushing at or near 100%).
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, I will very much keep that in mind. I had not thought about changing both days to 5x5, instead of 1x5, and that certainly takes care of the greater workload issue. As you have mentioned countless times before, however, I also have much better numbers to use for my target weights, so I will run through the second round more intelligently. I'll leave it as is, with better numbers.

Thanks for your post. :)
 
Protobuilder said:
Well, been trying to get 5x180 for 4 sessions now (running SF 5x5) and tonight I actually got one rep less than last time. I did nothing yesterday so wasn't pre-exhausted or anything.

What do you guys think is the best way to deal w/ this? (a) reramp the bench, or (b) reduce volume in my 3d and 4th set [I'm currently doing 3 reps on my 4th set but I could try doing a single or double on my 3d and 4th set), or (c) try doing a few warmup sets and then maybe 3 sets of 2 w/ my 180 or something . . .

I appreciate everyone's comments and patience! I'm learning this thing . . . and determined to understand it.
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I would re-ramp after four attempts. I doubt scaling down the reps on the 3rd and 4th set is going to make too much difference. You may get that weight but still have a major struggle going forward.

create a re-ramp that gets you back to 180 in one months time.

my £0.02
 
Numani said:
I would re-ramp after four attempts. I doubt scaling down the reps on the 3rd and 4th set is going to make too much difference. You may get that weight but still have a major struggle going forward.

create a re-ramp that gets you back to 180 in one months time.

my £0.02
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I tink he is right you should reramp since I believe Rip mentioned in another post that if you get less reps one workout after trying several times with the same weight that something needed to be changed and started again on that particular exercise,
 
Reramping is only one option. Working a different rep-range is another option. Dropping one or two of the ramping sets is another option. Dropping some of the ramps down to singles might work.
 
Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n

nelmsjer said:
Regarding the rest times, you are absolutely correct about those, too. My issue is that I am blessed to be in Iraq, where we literally work 12 hours per day, 7 days per week. Going anywhere for lunch (in this case, our workout) requires that we are back within an hour, and we aren't paid for it. I'm up at 0600, at work by 0700, workout at 1300, and am finished with work at 2000. By the time I've gone to get food at the cafeteria and eaten, it is 2100. My wife and I are in bed and asleep by 2200. All that to say that my lunch hour is the only time we have to workout, and unfortunately, longer rest periods are not an option. I know without a shadow of a doubt that my strength increases would have been even better. :)
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Ahhh - I see, that's some serious constraint. Well, all I can do is thank you for your service, hope that your strength gains made your tour a bit more enjoyable there, and wish you a safe return. Those are some tough constraints on time and sleep and this isn't an easy fitness style program. You should be proud of your progress and even the fact that you attempted and got through the program.
 
FYI - updated TOC is now in this thread (first post). It is not as comprehensive as what is on the Geocities site but it's just too hard to update and format an internet forum. There is a large link right at the top that leads people to the updated TOC on Geocities most of which in turn links back here although the programs have better templates and excel downloads on that site.

Also, someone gave me a karma donation a while back. Unfortunately I needed to make room in my PM box and everything got deleted that day before I could thank them or say anything. I forget who it was as I only saw the notice for a second before I realized what was going on but I hope this serves as an adequate thank you and you realize I didn't just totally blow you off.
 
Thanks blut_wump. I'm kinda' leaning towards reramping b/c that'll give me a sort of periodization, I guess. I'm a little afraid of reducing volume in my 3d and 4th sets even further (right now, doing 3 sets of 5, one set of 3, then going for my 5th set). I could probably squeeze out another PR but I'm not real comfortable going straight for my max set after a minimal warmup.

Anyone else? [original question is post # 1066 in this monster thread]

Programming is such an important concept but there's so little info. on it and it's kinda' hard trying to coach yourself through it -- the blind leading the blind. LoL
 
One more quick update: I mentioned that I would be testing deadlift this week. I just got back from that, and 455 went up very, very nicely...considerably easier than when I did 425. It was absolutely awesome, because I know I have more in me, and that was a lifetime best. Based on my time constraints, I didn't shoot for another, because I also wanted to test military. I am extremely confident in 495 after my next 5x5 cycle, which will end in about 13 weeks.

I have never tested military before, so I do not have comparison numbers. I am happy with the result, though, and it is certainly more than I have ever done. 185 lb. went up with no leg dip. It was actually interesting, because once my triceps kicked in, it flew up! Getting it past the sticking point was a tough one, though. I'll definitely call this one VERY close to my true max.

Again, I can't be more satisfied, not only with the program, but also with what I am learning along the way. Great stuff!
 
Madcow2 said:
FYI - updated TOC is now in this thread (first post). It is not as comprehensive as what is on the Geocities site but it's just too hard to update and format an internet forum. There is a large link right at the top that leads people to the updated TOC on Geocities most of which in turn links back here although the programs have better templates and excel downloads on that site.

Also, someone gave me a karma donation a while back. Unfortunately I needed to make room in my PM box and everything got deleted that day before I could thank them or say anything. I forget who it was as I only saw the notice for a second before I realized what was going on but I hope this serves as an adequate thank you and you realize I didn't just totally blow you off.
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Chefwide was running a weekly karma collect-and-donate over in C&C. Enough people must have put your name forward as a recipient for all the help you've given us on here.

Nelmsjer, congrats on your gains. That's a satisfying pull.

Protobuilder, let your warmups be warmups and distinct from your work-sets. I start my benching with a set of 10 with just the bar and another set of 8 or 10 with some small plates added and then a set of 5 or 6 with a bit more weight. I also change grips through these early sets. I then think about what I'm supposed to be doing. If I'm heading for a flat-weight workout then I'll ramp my way up to the weight but my mind is no longer thinking of these as warmups.
 
Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n

Protobuilder said:
Programming is such an important concept but there's so little info. on it and it's kinda' hard trying to coach yourself through it -- the blind leading the blind. LoL
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The Practical Periodisation book sounds like it's pretty much dedicated to this exact topic. I'm just disappointed it won't be published until around July.

http://www.lonkilgore.com/books.html
 
Just thought I'd share another success story. Good friend of mine, member here but never posts, ran the DF 5x5 twice so far. In 4 mo's, gained 15 pounds (guesses about half is fat though). Here's his strength progress:

Squat jumped 40 pounds
Bench went up 30 pounds
Rows went up 35 pounds
Military went up 15 pounds
Deadlift went up roughly 50 pounds
 
Madcow2 said:
nelmsjer - great results. Your 1RM potential is probably a bit better since it seems you didn't actually do much in the way of actively preparing for it (i.e. doubles/singles to peak).
Click to expand...


Madcow-

This is something that I haven't seen addressed yet. How would you suggest setting things up with this if one was interested in peaking for max 1RM's?
 
There'd be a progression of doubles and singles, generally along with the other work. So some kind of volume or loading stage then deloading and peaking toward a 1RM attempt. If I were you I'd look at the Korte 3x3 program at Deep Squatter. His is setup according to this. Granted he's doing it all with 3 lifts (you only squat, bench, dead 3x per week the entire time) but the fewer the lifts and moving parts the easier it is to see the underlying waves. You'll see basic but lowered volume work during deload and a layer of heavy lifts progressing on top of it.

There's a lot of ways to go about something but that's probably the easiest. Figure the kind of volume you need to deload and peak, the lifts you are testing or peakig, overlay a progression on top, adjust the volume if necessary to deal with this, and then back into your previous weeks.
 
Madcow,


How would one go about bring up a lagging body part properly? This is a purely hypothetical question, so I have no specific body part in mind, but I'm curious how a person should go about bringing up a lagging body part when we all know that the best training is using compound movements. For example, say someone's chest and back are fantastic, yet their arms are much smaller than they should be proportionally. Should that person start focusing on the less-than-optimal isolationist movements such as curls and tricep extensions? Continuing training the compound lifts as per the norm would seem to simply cause that person to grow as they have been (e.g. out of proportion).
 
siamesedream said:
Madcow,


How would one go about bring up a lagging body part properly? This is a purely hypothetical question, so I have no specific body part in mind, but I'm curious how a person should go about bringing up a lagging body part when we all know that the best training is using compound movements. For example, say someone's chest and back are fantastic, yet their arms are much smaller than they should be proportionally. Should that person start focusing on the less-than-optimal isolationist movements such as curls and tricep extensions? Continuing training the compound lifts as per the norm would seem to simply cause that person to grow as they have been (e.g. out of proportion).
Click to expand...
I assume aesthetics rather than functional or strength issue.

Well you certainly don't drop the compound lifts. Maybe go to maintenance levels but you don't fubar the whole thing. A lot has to do with genetics - meaning, some people will always have relatively smaller arms than their torso and they will struggle to maintain symmetry. Of course the main issue is that people tend to blow their small flaws totally out of proportion and fixate on them. So they would then increase the workload specific to that bodypart or perhaps skew exercises and programing to prioritize. Success depends upon genetics. Some people just aren't going to have big arms, others might have decent arm genetics but their structure tends to derrive the majority of force in compound lifts from the torso so the arms don't do as much work as in the majority of cases. It all depends but obviously you work on it and that's all you can do.
 
Madcow,

Throughout my training, everything has been showing consistent gains with the recent training I've been doing except pull-ups. For a period of time, they were getting better and I was increasing the weight used on them for a while. Around 6 weeks ago, that exercise began to show regression so I ramped down and have been building back up. Oddly enough, my performance regression on pull-ups is still continuing even though I ramped down. I started decreasing the amount of weight I added each week on the pull-ups, and I'm still unable to perform with less weight what I could with more weight around 10 weeks ago.

Linear progression and deloading has been going great with everything except pull-ups, so I guess I'm asking what exactly is going on here. I highly doubt one particular muscle group of my body has somehow gotten to the point where it requires periodization, so is just a specific part of my body in an accumulated state of fatigue? It seems ramping down was not enough to dissipate the fatigue as my performance on that exercise has been going to crap, so should I start deloading on that one exercise for the next week or 2 by decreasing volume drastically and keeping weight consistent for that deloading period? It's odd to constantly be getting stronger on everything else while pull-ups have begun spiraling downward.
 
Hey, i really like the Starr's 5x5 program, ill start tomorrow
We have great gym with ltos of machines but no squatting rack, tough we have a smith machine, do i loose much if i squat with mr smith or is it thinkable ?

Also it seems i cant do any pull ups, atleast not more that 2 barely, something to substitue this ? Pull down with cable maybe 'til i get stronger ?


Thank you
 
Last edited:
Czar87 said:
Hey, i really like the Starr's 5x5 program, ill start tomorrow
We have great gym with ltos of machines but no squatting rack, tough we have a smith machine, do i loose much if i squat with mr smith or is it thinkable ?

Also it seems i cant do any pull ups, atleast not more that 2 barely, something to substitue this ? Pull down with cable maybe 'til i get stronger ?


Thank you
Click to expand...
Ouch - it will hurt it a lot but no more than any other program. Squatting is a fundemental motion for the body and can really drive everything else, you use what you have so smith it or leg press but it's a huge blow IMO (so "great gym" and "no rack" are mutually exclusive). Use free weights for the rest but pull downs are okay if you can't do chins or pullups.

Just in case you didn't see the updated descriptions and table of contents it's on this site: http://www.geocities.com/elitemadcow1/table_of_contents_thread.htm
 
Maks said:
Did you include your increase in bodyweight to the pullup-weight ? :)
Click to expand...

My bodyweight hasn't been increasing, actually, as my goal is to have it slowly go down right now, so I'm not sure why my pull-up performance is going down as well. It may just be some major accumulated fatigue.



Anyways, madcow, I guess I have 2 questions now whenever you get around to it.


1.) (from above) Throughout my training, everything has been showing consistent gains with the recent training I've been doing except pull-ups. For a period of time, they were getting better and I was increasing the weight used on them for a while. Around 6 weeks ago, that exercise began to show regression so I ramped down and have been building back up. Oddly enough, my performance regression on pull-ups is still continuing even though I ramped down. I started decreasing the amount of weight I added each week on the pull-ups, and I'm still unable to perform with less weight what I could with more weight around 10 weeks ago.

Linear progression and deloading has been going great with everything except pull-ups, so I guess I'm asking what exactly is going on here. I highly doubt one particular muscle group of my body has somehow gotten to the point where it requires periodization, so is just a specific part of my body in an accumulated state of fatigue? It seems ramping down was not enough to dissipate the fatigue as my performance on that exercise has been going to crap, so should I start deloading on that one exercise for the next week or 2 by decreasing volume drastically and keeping weight consistent for that deloading period? It's odd to constantly be getting stronger on everything else while pull-ups have begun spiraling downward.


2.) Are there actually plausible studies that show that the length of a workout actually matters? A lot of bodybuilders and other programs say that if a workout lasts longer than 40 minutes to an hour, the entire training session is detrimental to your progress thanks to a major decrease in test levels as well as skyrocketing cortisol levels. Is this actually scientifically verified information?
 
Last edited:
Madcow2 said:
Ouch - it will hurt it a lot but no more than any other program. Squatting is a fundemental motion for the body and can really drive everything else, you use what you have so smith it or leg press but it's a huge blow IMO (so "great gym" and "no rack" are mutually exclusive). Use free weights for the rest but pull downs are okay if you can't do chins or pullups.

Just in case you didn't see the updated descriptions and table of contents it's on this site: http://www.geocities.com/elitemadcow1/table_of_contents_thread.htm
Click to expand...
Arghh thats not good at all if i loose something with it ... but isnt smitthing just like squatting but i just dont have to stabilize the weight, i still squatt and press with my legs and body, dont i ? CAn you tell me how much do i loose and how bad is it


btw great site, thanks
 
It's pretty much night and day. Read the Arioch article on the squat in the exercise section it goes into some detail on the smith. Stabalization is important, it plays a large role in the effectiveness of the exercise. It looks similar but it's a very big deal. Then again, you do what you have to do. It's better than nothing and a whole lot better than some alternatives.
 
I read it and now i know smithing is bad, but any idea how can i squat anyway with freeweights ... there are several bars in my gym but they are low, approx. hips lenght ... what if i bring it to my shoulders with handsm, i know i loose lot of energy and cant do it with much weight but is it better idea than smithing ?
 
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siamesedream said:
2.) Are there actually plausible studies that show that the length of a workout actually matters? A lot of bodybuilders and other programs say that if a workout lasts longer than 40 minutes to an hour, the entire training session is detrimental to your progress thanks to a major decrease in test levels as well as skyrocketing cortisol levels. Is this actually scientifically verified information?
Click to expand...
I'm sure that hormone levels do change during the course of the workout, but does it matter? I doubt it. As soon as you eat everything gets going toward normal again. So you're talking about a small window where you hormone profile is not ideal. In the scheme of things, it seems to make little/no difference. If you're worried, start sipping on a High GI carb drink and cortisol should drop rapidly. But honestly I don't think it amounts to much either way.

I doubt I've been in and out of the gym in less than an hour even once in the last 4 years or more and I have no complaints.
 
BCAAs are supposed to combat cortisol and are fairly cheap.

I've often worked 1.5 - 2 hour workouts without apparent detriment. My typical workout is around 1.25 hours.
 
Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n

siamesedream said:
My bodyweight hasn't been increasing, actually, as my goal is to have it slowly go down right now, so I'm not sure why my pull-up performance is going down as well. It may just be some major accumulated fatigue.



Anyways, madcow, I guess I have 2 questions now whenever you get around to it.


1.) (from above) Throughout my training, everything has been showing consistent gains with the recent training I've been doing except pull-ups. For a period of time, they were getting better and I was increasing the weight used on them for a while. Around 6 weeks ago, that exercise began to show regression so I ramped down and have been building back up. Oddly enough, my performance regression on pull-ups is still continuing even though I ramped down. I started decreasing the amount of weight I added each week on the pull-ups, and I'm still unable to perform with less weight what I could with more weight around 10 weeks ago.

Linear progression and deloading has been going great with everything except pull-ups, so I guess I'm asking what exactly is going on here. I highly doubt one particular muscle group of my body has somehow gotten to the point where it requires periodization, so is just a specific part of my body in an accumulated state of fatigue? It seems ramping down was not enough to dissipate the fatigue as my performance on that exercise has been going to crap, so should I start deloading on that one exercise for the next week or 2 by decreasing volume drastically and keeping weight consistent for that deloading period? It's odd to constantly be getting stronger on everything else while pull-ups have begun spiraling downward.


2.) Are there actually plausible studies that show that the length of a workout actually matters? A lot of bodybuilders and other programs say that if a workout lasts longer than 40 minutes to an hour, the entire training session is detrimental to your progress thanks to a major decrease in test levels as well as skyrocketing cortisol levels. Is this actually scientifically verified information?
Click to expand...

1. change the exercise, change something, stop doing it for a bit, do pulldowns for higher reps - don't just beat a dead dog.

2. there's tons of studies - I'm sure it my training is exactly 33 minutes I will shit gold. Hormones are regulated in the body. There is a feedback loop so the body is constantly adjusting (i.e. this is why steroids shut down your natural test production because people use external means to raise it sky high and keep it far above baseline - it screws with this system). The main issue is that, as said above, this is a brief window and what you are doing is creating a long consistent process. And the feedback loop will compensate for the spike anyway and bring it back down to keep it in range. Basically, the positives to be had are so small that it's totally worthless to screw up your stimulus over this. Now I'm not saying traing for hours and hours like a moron but I'm saying, the significance is totally blown out of proportion. If you are really worried, split your sessions into A/B for the day.
 
Thanks for the responses guys.


About the timeframe issue, I'm not near worried enough about it to split my session into A/B or anything like that. I've heard it many times before and have paid no mind to it since most of the info is strictly from the bodybuilding world, but I've been seeing people beat that issue like crazy lately and I finally paid enough attention to it to actually be curious about the studies on it. I did a search on it and found quite a few university studies on it, but the interpretations of it and the control factors varied so much that is was hard to know what on earth to even make the study.

Crap like this: http://www.worldhealth.net/p/257,6728.html

doesn't even list types of exercises done or anything that can even make the study useful yet they draw the conclusion that more time = less progress. The closing statement "The university's Health and Exercise Science Unit looked at male recreational weight lifters over eight weeks with some doing three times as much exercise as others." makes it obvious that study specifically assumed that more time = more exercises, rather than looking at more time meaning more resting time in between sets to account for heavier weights or something different. To sum it up, studies as such seem to be completely useless but much of the bodybuilding world swears that less time = more progress.

As such, it begs me to conclude that either there are more studies out there that actually are useful that I can't find, or that the bodybuilding world is nearly entirely consistent of theories built on shoddy science.
 
What the bodybulding world is full of is everyone trying to extrapolate these magical pieces and do fifty thousand things at once to arrive at the perfect workout, perfect split, and perfect supplement list (and perfect stack of anabolics when they can't get that to work). The problem is that unless something is really off, all that stuff together means very little while the big blocks - getting stronger and better at big exercises while eating enough are totally butchered. It's just moronically inefficient to focus on the 2% crap when the big 90% block is screwed.
 
Does military press equals the same with dumbell shoulder press, is dumbells shoulder press as good as military ?
 
Alright guys -- squat trouble. I'm in week 13 of the single factor 5x5. Got 5x190 w/ unusually good form. Next session, went for 195 and got 3, but my form sucked pretty bad. The next day, I ran. My legs were tired and running was more dififcult than usual. Long story short, my knees started aching (right below the kneecap). Hurt for 3 days (2 were scheduled off days). Today, no aching so tried squatting again. I got one rep at 195 and my form sucked really bad. There was no way I could get a 2d rep. I rested, and did one more single. Form wasn't any better (glorified good morning basically).

Anyways, I need to adjust something obviously. I hope the running and not the squatting made my knees ache. I have a suspicion it was the running but maybe I was dive-bombing my squats or something. Anyways, I'm thinking about just reramping my squat weigths. I'm still progressing on everything else so don't think it's time to take a week off or anything. But this is new territory for me.

Any suggestions? Should I just reramp my squat weight? Should I do a week of high reps to help my knees, or do a week of low volume on squats or something?
 
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