Alternatives to Clomid??

[ceo]

He was not band for saying any thing against derma. If that was the case more then just one person in this thread would be band. True or not? So think of a deferent reason guys. Also this thread has still here ain't it. We had the same time of threads a year ago about derma and other products. O look derma is still here, people are still using it with good results. Nothing more needs to be said...

You want studies lol The ingredents in dermacrine and dermacrine sustain have been studied for years. As for the product its self its clear people like it and it works for them. So get over it already. This fighting is solving nothing. At the end of the day. I am still going to tell people to use derma. Lots of people are going to use derma, and lots of people are going to love derma. If the product was nothing but snake oil it would not be doing so well.

I'm not saying the products are "snake oil" or that they don't work. By going off what I read on here I would believe they are effective to some degree -EVEN used by themselves without nolva/arim/letro/etc. I personally have no experience with either one, and don't have need for either one right now.

My only arguement was on the "scientific studies". I believe what you have are not scientific studies specific to derma and derma sustain. The individual ingredients? Sure, there have been studies done (let me say that as of this writing, I don't even know what the ingredients are, but I'm sure you could dig up studies). Were those studies done in context to the purposes derma is being promoted and sold for?

Even then, are there really any truly scientific studies done using the derma products? I would guess, no. It takes time and costs a lot of money to do those studies. What's the avg. research budget for a big pharma company? Even when pharma companies come out with a new drug that is very similar and in the same class as another drug (ex. Viagra - Cialis - Levitra), EACH of those drugs have been individually studied scientifically. One doesn't come out with a copycat drug and say, "well, we're going off the data from the other drug's study."

I'm not arguing about the product or it's effectiveness.

I am arguing semantics, possibly (that is, your choice of words in calling anecdotal evidence, "scientific studies").

Please re-read and make clear.

Thank you.

 

[ceo]

Placebo doesnt work well on the endocrine system.

But sometimes people recover just fine without any PCT! BAck in the old days we never had PCT and people kept their gains. Not necessarily placebo, just the body doing what it is supposed to do in finding it's homeostasis.

Remarkable things, these bodies we have!

 

[patsfan1379]

Actual scientific studies on the effectiveness of a medication or drug for ONE specific use. I.E. Drug X tested for its effectiveness of making bones more dense -- take years to complete.

 

[needtogetarmy]

WOW. I can't believe people here are saying that Dermacrine is better, let along better times a zillion times, than clomi.d.

 

[needtogetarmy]

Dermacrine is not my product.

And people also have to lose this "Clomid has been proven" cliche'. It has not. It is a drug designed for women. It is experimental in men and is effective only part of the time and other times leads to negative side effects. Enough already.

Um, hate to break the bad news, it has been tested and proven to raise test levels. In fact, it is often prescribed for men for that purpose.

BTW I agree with ceo 100%. Good posts bro.

 

[ceo]

WOW. I can't believe people here are saying that Dermacrine is better, let along better times a zillion times, than clomi.d.

Like I said, this is something where it is based on people's opinions. Responses here will be subjective and biased based on people's experiences (mostly). Would you expect different from a steroid board? Even 2 different MD's practicing in the same field will sometimes prefer one drug over another in the same situation based on their experiences (of their patients).

People will react differently (to some degree) to various drugs. Nelson has always been outspoken on his hatred of clomid. It doesn't work well for him or he can't tolerate the sides - whatever the case - so he will always advise everyone against it. I'm not sure what needto's experiences are with clomid, but they are apparently negative, ergo a similar response as Nelson against clomid.

Obviously, they both will advise products that they endorse (no surprise as they are compensated for such when people purchase their products).

 

[eddymerckx]

but look how many "real" drugs are prescribed off-label based on self report---i think to expect dermacrine to have double blind/etc studies is a little unrealistic considering the total target demographic is pretty narrow--and some may not opt for it, even if it was the best post cycle therapy - available if the cost was a few hundred dollars for a bottle....just my humble opinion

 

[needtogetarmy]

Like I said, this is something where it is based on people's opinions. Responses here will be subjective and biased based on people's experiences (mostly). Would you expect different from a steroid board? Even 2 different MD's practicing in the same field will sometimes prefer one drug over another in the same situation based on their experiences (of their patients).

People will react differently (to some degree) to various drugs. Nelson has always been outspoken on his hatred of clomid. It doesn't work well for him or he can't tolerate the sides - whatever the case - so he will always advise everyone against it. I'm not sure what needto's experiences are with clomid, but they are apparently negative, ergo a similar response as Nelson against clomid.

Obviously, they both will advise products that they endorse (no surprise as they are compensated for such when people purchase their products).

Good points.

Just to add to this, I am not slamming Dermacrine. I will find out what the substances are in it and run them through PubMed and the other med databases I have an pull every article I run across (when I get the chance). They are doing maintenance on the servers on campus until late Dec so I cannot get access to them. I know there are some studies on the bad side effects of DHEA. I'll post them all when I get the chance.

Just another point: Nelson may have bad sides with clomid (or whatever) but his statement that there are no studies on clomid is false. I pulled these from a simple google search.

1. Fertil Steril. 1978 Mar;29(3):320-7.
2. Int J Impot Res. 2003 Jun;15(3):156-65.
3. Understanding sex biases in immunity: effects of estrogen on the differentiation and function of antigen-presenting cells. Immunol Res. 2005;31(2):91-106.
4. The effects of normal aging on the response of the pituitary-gonadal axis to chronic clomiphene administration in men. J Androl 1991 Jul-Aug;12(4):258-63
5. Optic neuropathy associated with clomiphene citrate therapy. Fertil Steril. 1994 Feb;61(2):390-1
6. Visual disturbance secondary to clomiphene citrate. Arch Ophthalmol. 1995 Apr;113(4):482-4

 

[Nelson Montana]

Um, hate to break the bad news, it has been tested and proven to raise test levels. In fact, it is often prescribed for men for that purpose.

BTW I agree with ceo 100%. Good posts bro.

And in some cases lower it, hence experimental. If it raised test so well it'd be prescribed for HRT. It is not.

And BTW, I've speaking out against Clomid for years and recommending instead the ingredients which are in UNLEASHED years before the product was available.

 

[Big Rick Rock]

Thank you to everybody that is participating in this thread. The fact that the products of our sponsors are being weight in against prescription meds, only speaks to their effectiveness. We welcome criticism even when it comes from people who have never used the product. EF was built on educated shoppers.

As you can see, we leave these threads unedited for people to read and make up their own minds. We don't delete threads that disagree with sponsors. We don't bann people for disagreeing with sponsors. At one time this could have happened, but sponsors/Mods responsible for doing those things have been gone for a while now. I think it is time for our members to embrace the change.

That being said.

The next person to claim censorship WILL get banned for real. If you want to accuse us of the deed, I will make it a fact for you and you alone. Please be advised.