Ahh.. what to do now..

[BlkWS6]

Originally posted by casualbb
Only trainees that use steroids experience hyperplasia to any significant degree.

Anyone who actually understands how muscles work either does HST or hasn't heard of it yet.

-casualbb


By making this statement you yourself are taking a Debaser-like approach and assuming that HST is the only way to train. That is the implication I derived from the above statement. I hope that isnt what you were getting at, and that I just mis-interpreted it.

 

[casualbb]

I wanted to respond in kind. And no, it's not the only way to train.

There's strength training, and there's growth training. HST is the best of the latter.

I stand by that statement. No other program is based on how the muscles actually grow, just various tricks that people have found that for some reason make them grow perhaps a little more than certain other tricks.

-casualbb

 

[BlkWS6]

Could you give me a link with information/support behind HST. I dont really want a program outline, I just want to read up on how this is the godsend for muscle hypertrophy. I just find it hard to believe that other programs are just "tricks" that work. I would really like to see some evidence supporting this type of training and how it is superior to other forms of "trick training". Thanks!

 

[Debaser]

Because I don't think Haycock has all the answers. Science doesn't always have an answer for everything in the training world. He actually believes that for BULKING one should only have .8 to 1 g of protein per lb of bodyweight. Go ahead and argue this, but DC would probably just laugh, considering the amount of trainees he's had where he cut their carbs, set them to 2 times BW + protein (and thus equaling the same number of calories). I myself have experienced much better growth by using 1.5 to 2 times my BW.

My rationale for the great gains with the DC program:

1. We know that gaining strength results in gaining size, whether it's direct or indirect.

2. The frequency of DC is less than HST, but still greater than other programs.

So what if DC training makes up for the lack of frequency, by including additional size gains as a result of strength gains?

 

[casualbb]

The frequency of DC is less than HST, but still greater than other programs.

This is where DC training is really just a subset of HIT ideas. Up to a point, training more frequently results in more growth. That point is once every 36 hours. We know, medically, that 36 hours +/- a little is the time when growth triggered by training falls off. So when you train bodyparts once every 4 days, you spend at most 2 days growing and 2 days not. HST dictates that you train not according to fatigue but according to the actual growth timeframe of the muscles themselves.

So how can you possibly cite that as an example of why DC is better? I'd say that's an example of why it's worse.

-casualbb

 

[casualbb]

BlkWS6: I'll provide an example. The factors governing mucle growth are
(1) Mechanical load. How much weight the fibers have to bear.
(2) Frequency. This dictates how much time a given muscle fiber spends in a state of growth.
(3) Muscle conditioning. This one is the most frequently overlooked. This refers to a buildup of connective tissue that shifts tension off the muscle fibers. This is why people plateau on programs; their muscles become "tough" so to speak, and resist loading. Taking time off reverses this effect.

(3) is why progressive resistance is so key. It allows an individual to continuously overcome the anti-growth conditioning because muscles condition in proportion to the load. In other words, (very simplified), when you lift 100 pounds, the tissue becomes conditioned to 100 pounds. Next time you should lift 105-110; lifting 100 won't cause growth.

A few programs such as DC and notably the 5x5 have hit upon this idea and thus well optimize one of the above factors. The 5x5 very much resembles any given volume training except for that progressive resistance; that is why it is so beloved and relatively effective. DC on the other hand mistakenly attributes the size gains to the strength gains made when in reality the strength gains have merely allowed the progressive load that actually caused the growth.

Let me actually take a moment to send some love to the 5x5. Granted the frequency is off, but it's the only other program I've seen that has people work below their max in a way that will help growth. The majority of stuff has people doing this and that to extreme failure, brainwashing people to think that you need 100% intensity for growth.

As to the research, I'll get to that later today as it's kinda late.

Let me apologize for being a little inflammatory earlier. Everybody thinks that they know the truth about what they're doing and if you'd have caught me a year ago I would've sworn by the stupid program I was doing at the time (SCT for all who've ever wondered. Oh boy was it bad.) I broke my personal oath of trying to always be positive.

-casualbb

 

[johnb]

Anyone with questions re: HST should read the HST FAQ Forum

What Bryan (HST's creator) has to say about DC:

DC/Doggcrapp method

DC's suggestions betray his strength training background. Methods based on fatigue/exhaustion (training to failure and rest/pause stuff) are really methods of increasing strength.

So in essence, he is shifting the emphasis towards strength gains. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that if that is your goal. All you have to do is induce more fatigue, and train less frequently.

Using a variety of exercise won't protect your tendons from injury. Using the same exercises doesn't increase your risk of injury either. Otherwise all Olympic lifters would be injured all the time. The variety thing is more an influence of BB mags. Although, if boredom is an issue, switch thigns up all your want, just make sure that the muscle is experiencing the same relative tension and demands across different exercises.

DC (I don't know him personally) is only one of many variations of HST that you will see in teh near future. Especially from more experienced lifters. Why? Because HST is true (so to speak). It isn't based on "tradition", a "style", "Russian secrets", or even an "opinion". HST is based on the way muscles actually grow in response to training. As a result, there will be a gradual yet natural shift of bodybuilding training styles towards HST.

 

[BlkWS6]

Thanks for the info casual, I look forward to seeing the rest of the research.

 

[Lestat]

Ok so say I want to give HST a try..

where do I start.. what do I do to setup a routine that I can follow for a few months? I've read the web site to some degree but it is still not entirely clear. Can someone break it down for me?

 

[argent]

I agree, for the most part...but don't forget that a motor "unit" is a muscle fiber AND a nerve.

Also, Chuck TRAINS for size, and strength, and speed, and GPP....WSB. When you're hitting every possible fiber type, it's hard to NOT get results. When you're doing EVERYTHING, something's going to happen.

Right, I was just trying to make the general point that muscular size does not always mean that you can lift more than a smaller individual. I do agree with your above statements as well.