AAS part of the equation?

[BigBadBootyDaddy29]

I was doing some thinking on the subject of steroids lately, and I decided to post this to get everyone's take on it. I am putting it on the training board, because the general attitude here is that training, sleep, and eating come before all else (as they should), where if I were to post it on most anabolic boards, it would detract from the post because the attitude there is drugs, drugs, more drugs, and the newest drugs......I am wondering how many of you feel steroids are just as important in the equation for somebody looking to be the best as sleep, nutrition, training genetics, etc.......Let me explain, I am not talking about somebody looking to improve upon themselves, ANYBODY can do that......and while I realize that a person's main competition is themselves, lets get real here,if you want to reach the highest level of anything, and be the best at that level, you have to compete against other people, and any way you slice it or word it that you compete against only yourself, you'd just be kidding yourself, while PRing is great, you've got to be able to beat others, not just yourself if you wanna be the best, period. This can apply to any athletic contest under the sun. I was thinking about myself lately, I was like okay, I've got good genetics to build size, power, and strength......I have the training knowledge and experience......I have the passion and fire inside of myself......I know what to eat, and I eat a lot of it, and I love to eat.......I get my sleep......I don't drink/party very often at all......I love to train......That being said, A LOT of people have all those attributes, everyone at a high level of competition in ANYTHING has those attributes, so therefore, the playing field is now even......okay, now one guy uses AAS, he has an adv......another guy uses, and another, and another, and before you know it, AAS are just as important as sleep, eating, training, genetics, because it is the only thing left, and your competition is using them, so not using AAS i the same as not lifting....or not sleeping....or not eating.......does everyone follow me? I want to hear everybody's thoughts on this.....expecially the guys who are natural right now....I am wondering what your goals are, and if they include being the best, are you ready to take on the best of the best, who are just as good as you when it comes to training, diet, preparation, desire, but they have that one thing you'renot using, the diffference maker.......

 

[mtellin]

I was doing some thinking on the subject of steroids lately, and I decided to post this to get everyone's take on it. I am putting it on the training board, because the general attitude here is that training, sleep, and eating come before all else (as they should), where if I were to post it on most anabolic boards, it would detract from the post because the attitude there is drugs, drugs, more drugs, and the newest drugs......I am wondering how many of you feel steroids are just as important in the equation for somebody looking to be the best as sleep, nutrition, training genetics, etc.......Let me explain, I am not talking about somebody looking to improve upon themselves, ANYBODY can do that......and while I realize that a person's main competition is themselves, lets get real here,if you want to reach the highest level of anything, and be the best at that level, you have to compete against other people, and any way you slice it or word it that you compete against only yourself, you'd just be kidding yourself, while PRing is great, you've got to be able to beat others, not just yourself if you wanna be the best, period. This can apply to any athletic contest under the sun. I was thinking about myself lately, I was like okay, I've got good genetics to build size, power, and strength......I have the training knowledge and experience......I have the passion and fire inside of myself......I know what to eat, and I eat a lot of it, and I love to eat.......I get my sleep......I don't drink/party very often at all......I love to train......That being said, A LOT of people have all those attributes, everyone at a high level of competition in ANYTHING has those attributes, so therefore, the playing field is now even......okay, now one guy uses AAS, he has an adv......another guy uses, and another, and another, and before you know it, AAS are just as important as sleep, eating, training, genetics, because it is the only thing left, and your competition is using them, so not using AAS i the same as not lifting....or not sleeping....or not eating.......does everyone follow me? I want to hear everybody's thoughts on this.....expecially the guys who are natural right now....I am wondering what your goals are, and if they include being the best, are you ready to take on the best of the best, who are just as good as you when it comes to training, diet, preparation, desire, but they have that one thing you'renot using, the diffference maker.......

paragraphs are sometimes nice...

 

[SofaGeorge]

I couldn't even read this.

 

[gettinlarger]

I read it, and understood it. I must, however, respectfully disagree with the "competition with oneself" idea. I am my only competition. I try to beat myself each workout. I don't look around the gym and eye some dude benching 405 for reps and think, "that fucker is gonna have to answer to MY lifts one day ..."

Anyway, I don't want to use any AAS. Not at this point. I'm still very young, and very new at this sport. I've been lifting for like 3 years. 1.5, maybe 2 of those seriously. I have a loooooooong way to go. I want to reach my complete, absolute natural apex. When that happens, maybe, and only maybe I'll consider the use of anything illegal.

Sure, I want to be the best ... by MY best. I couldn't care less if there is someone bigger or stronger than I am.

 

[bigguns15]

I compete natural and have always competed natural. I lift in a fed. where AAS are considered cheating, although I know this does not stop some individuals. For me, it is a moral thing. I'm not the best, yet. One day I will be. I placed 2nd in this past years nationals and I will win in the next couple of years. I know I could reach that goal a lot sooner with AAS, but that would be compromising my values, and I am not prepared to do that. When I reach the top one day, I want to be able to say with a clear conscience that it was a lot of hard work and dedication that got me there. I have most of the variables down..... the eating, sleeping, rest, and training hard. I choose to compete in my fed. because it takes AAS out of the equation, as much as it can anyway. Even if I knew for certain that my competition was using, I couldn't do it.

 

[T-Rage]

Good post...

After much research on the topic I have come to the conclusion that doing it natural is the way to go.

First, once you realize that your body has a maximum natural pontential then you see that AAS is not the way to go.

What this means is that to maintain a level of performance from AAS means you have to continue using them. Whether it be every few months or once a year. That is not a option for most of us who care about the legalities and health risks.

Each one of us has natural potential. Some have more than others of course. Once we reach our maximum natural potential our progress begins to flatten out. We have all seen incredible gains early on and the longer one has been lifting the slower the gains and progress become.

This is because our bodies are in a battle between anabolism and catabolism. The extreme workouts necessary to continue making progress naturally after years of advanced training begins to have a negative effect and that's where progress will most likely stop. If it didn't we would all be monsters winning the World's Strongest Man competition.

Let's say my maximum natural lean body weight is 207 lbs. (I'm 5'-7"). That would mean that once I hit that point the workouts would have to be so intense to push me beyond that limit that they I would end up overtraining, injurying myself or requiring weeks to recover. All of these things would result in no forward progress and hence you have reached the limit. I'm sure small gains can be made beyond this point but they may be as little as a pound every year or two. Remember I'm talking about lean mass.

Now of course AAS can take you far beyond this limit but once you come off you will eventually go back to your maximun natural bodyweight. It might take a year but it will happen.

I'm ok with this. Just being able to say you have taken you body to the maximum possible if enough for me.

Also, I have seen countless lifters who use AAS (personal friends included) that don't train nearly as hard as me. This is because AAS allows one to be lazy and get away with shitty diets and lousy workouts. True champions have to endure hard workouts all the time, pay attention to their diets all the time, etc. This is the kind of thing that builds confidence and determination and ultimately excellent competitors.

 

[jackangel]

I did. Well, most of it.

I am not informed about AAS, and have no intention of using them ever. Then again, I don't need them for my goals*. But, to be the absolute, unqualified best (in terms of performance), I don't doubt that they're necessary. The rules of the game are defined by those who play.

I question that need to be the best at (almost) any cost. But for those who don't have such reservations, AAS is a natural choice (no pun intended).


*Incidentally, my goals are to get to a decent size (maybe 195-205 at 8-10% bf, 5'11") and then concentrate on building as much strength as possible. I'm sure I could use AAS to get stronger, but for me, it wouldn't mean the same thing if I used them. But, obviously, I have no aspirations to weightlifting or powerlifting or bodybuilding.

 

[needsize]

If you get to a point where you cant progress any more naturally, and you are no where near your goals, then I see no reason why you cant make the educated decision to do them

 

[casualbb]

I am wondering how many of you feel steroids are just as important in the equation for somebody looking to be the best as sleep, nutrition, training genetics, etc

Unfortunately, steroids are as important. Sleep, nutrition, and training will only get you so far. Most guys can't even get to their genetic limit through training. The closer you get, the harder it is to make gains. Say a guy can get to 210 @ 8% bodyfat naturally. Now he will certainly look good and be pretty strong. But the use of steroids will allow his bodyweight to climb past 250 while still being lean. 40 pounds of musclemass makes quite the difference.

Here's how steroids relates to everything:
1) Training: steroids make up for ineffective training. But the results will be greatly increased if the training is good.

2) Diet: this is one steroids won't make up for. If one takes steroids and F's up his/her diet, not much will happen. Maybe he/she will trade some BF for muscle, but that's it. No gaining like 15 pounds in a cycle.

expecially the guys who are natural right now....I am wondering what your goals are, and if they include being the best, are you ready to take on the best of the best, who are just as good as you when it comes to training, diet, preparation, desire, but they have that one thing you'renot using, the diffference maker.......

I'm not really trying to compete with anybody. It's vain, but I just want to look good. I'd love to be 180 at 7%, and god forbid I'll need steroids to get there. I don't like the freaky big look that currently pervades bodybuilding. I like Steve Reeves because he provides an example of what can be achieved naturally, and nobody can say he doesn't look good.

If I juiced, I'd feel like I were cheating myself. I guess I want to prove to myself I can get there without a giant crutch.

-casual

 

[BigBadBootyDaddy29]

Mtellin and Sofa George, I posted this up to generate a discussion, not to be graded in grammar and punctuation. I re-read it, and although I didn't use textbook grammar, it is perfectly understandable. So, if you can't understand it, then you better see what your problem is and address it. Also, Sofa, you have been in this game a long time, at least according to your posts anyway. I would seriously be interested in your take on this, so if you could bring yourself to get over my grammatical short-comings, which have apparently made my post un-readable, I would appreciate a response since I think you could offer a lot.

As for the other responses, thanks. What I am referring to is competing in a sport at a very high level. I did not mean the average lifter. Steroids are not necessary to make progress, but I feel they are necessary to compete on a world-class level.

To address the competetion part of my post, I wasn't referring to the guy benching next to you, or the dude working in the power rack with you. I agree with Gettinlarger on that. I was referring to competition in a sport, however. Basically, if you're a defensive end, the offensive tackle you're running at doesn't care if you're stronger than you were 2 months ago, if HE is stronger than YOU on this given day, you're going to be in a lot of pain. Another example of this would be bodybuilding. Look at the best of the best. At this year's O, Jay, Gunter, and Ronnie all want to win. Ronnie Coleman won't be satisfied with 2nd or 3rd place just because he looks better than he ever did because if Jay or Gunter still look better than him, they win. So, in that sense, his competition is on a greater level than setting PR's and going against himself.

I hope I cleared myself up a little. I posted this on a lunch break, and I never knew posts were graded on grammar and punctuation. I think I got my ideas across, and there were no major misspellings that couldn't be chalked up to typos. If you've read my previous posts, I see no reason to flame, so if you have a problem with me, PM me and we'll talk about it, but don't ever fucking flame one of my posts because this is not bullshit, it was a serious question. Thanks again to the guys who responded with their opinions though, I hope this post doesn't turn into a mess.

 

[pwr_machine]

Expect to see bigguns15 at worlds...drug free.

 

[BigBadBootyDaddy29]

Bigguns, I got so pissed off at the first two responses, I forgot to mention your post. I just wanted to say congratulations and good luck. What you do takes dedication, sacrifice, and one huge set of nuts, there would be people in the world with a lot more pride if they had your attitude, and I wish you nothing but the best.

I am gonna ask you something though. My post was directed to those wishing to be the best the world has to offer.....you said you placed 2nd at a national competition, thats better than probably 99% of the population, but whats your ultimate goal? If it is Nationals, then you can surely accpmplish it naturally.....I don't know your weight class/numbers, etc....but if they aren't enough to compete with the absolute best in the world, the Ryan Kenelley's, the Anthony Clark's, The Gary Frank's, the John Inzer's of the world, and you want some day to be the best of the best, does your stance on roids change?????

 

[needsize]

Here's how steroids relates to everything:
1) Training: steroids make up for ineffective training. But the results will be greatly increased if the training is good.

2) Diet: this is one steroids won't make up for. If one takes steroids and F's up his/her diet, not much will happen. Maybe he/she will trade some BF for muscle, but that's it. No gaining like 15 pounds in a cycle.

I never thought I would agree with you bro, but thank you for posting that. So many people seem to think that steroids are the magic solution, you take a few pills and bang you're huge. It isnt that simple. Anabolic steroids increase nitrogen retention, which is basically what protein turns into in the body. If you arent just cramming the protein into your body, then the steroids wont do you any good.
I admit, I use steroids now, but that was after 10 years of natural training and having reached my genetic limit years before. I see lots of guys that have been on them so much longer than myself, but they cant even stand next to me. Why, because my training and nutrition is 100% sound. I devote my life to this sport, I dont drink, almost never go out, all I do is eat, sleep and train with an intensity that would drop most on their ass. And even though I combine all of that with steroids, I still have a bitch of a time gaining any more size.
If steroids were the magic pill that so many believe they are, then the olympia trophy would be on my mantle now.....

 

[collegiateLifter]

Pretty good post. I think that if you make it to the elite level and then you figure that at the elite level, everyones got comparable genetics, good training and nutrition. Essentially its a level playing field. But if many are juicing then you no longer can truly be competitive because they've got an advantage on you. Kinda like if you're 7 feet tall and play Bball. In highschool, if you can make and finish a layup + a few post moves, you are gonna be successfull player. But once you get into the NBA, and everyone you play against at your position is 7 feet tall, you've got to elevate your game if you want to be successful. Theres a term for this phenomenon but I forget what it is.


as for

To address the competetion part of my post, I wasn't referring to the guy benching next to you, or the dude working in the power rack with you. I agree with Gettinlarger on that. I was referring to competition in a sport, however. Basically, if you're a defensive end, the offensive tackle you're running at doesn't care if you're stronger than you were 2 months ago, if HE is stronger than YOU on this given day, you're going to be in a lot of pain. Another example of this would be bodybuilding. Look at the best of the best. At this year's O, Jay, Gunter, and Ronnie all want to win. Ronnie Coleman won't be satisfied with 2nd or 3rd place just because he looks better than he ever did because if Jay or Gunter still look better than him, they win. So, in that sense, his competition is on a greater level than setting PR's and going against himself.

I certainly see you are comin from BBBD, but I've found this interesting, from the Champ, Vasili Alexeyev

'They say that the strongest wins. But the strongest in what way? I remember, at the time of the championships in Lima, that Reding in training lifted record weights. He had acquired a terrific strength and huge muscles, but he lost to me, even though he was physically stronger. Why? Serge and I had different ways of training. Others thought for him. He carried out the suggestions of his coach, Dupont. Roughly speaking, Reding took in 'the science of winning' though his ears. And this showed when he was on his own with the barbell. But, as for me, I thought for myself. S erge also lost because he wanted to beat me. That's all he thought about. He worried constantly and burned himself out before he even got to the platform . . .

For me the most important thing is to beat myself, to lift the barbell that up to this point I have not yet lifted. My rivals don't worry me very much."

from 'The Science of Winning according to Vasili Alexeyev by Dmitri Ivanov' off of
http://elitefts.com/elite-articles/misc/

 

[gonelifting]

No doubt, YOU NEED AAS TO COMPETE (and win) WITH THE BEST IN THE WORLD.

That`s it. Period

 

[pwr_machine]

I'll vouch for bigguns15 until she has a chance to respond accordingly. I believe that she has a legitimate shot at worlds in the future. Her patience is the key. She's put about 500 pounds on her total in the last 6 or 7 years. Again, it's all about patience and smart training.

 

[needsize]

I'll vouch for bigguns15 until she has a chance to respond accordingly. I believe that she has a legitimate shot at worlds in the future. Her patience is the key. She's put about 500 pounds on her total in the last 6 or 7 years. Again, it's all about patience and smart training.

theres more to it than just patience and smart training, if you dont have the genetics then no amount of either will get you to the top

 

[gonelifting]

OK now that I`ve posted that. I`m a normal lifter, nothing special. (skinny bastard actually) and I know how hard it is to make good gains, But I wholeheartedly think if I "used" I would be better off. Especially now being 34 yo.

I will never compete in anything nor do I have the desire, but for those elite few that have it all THEY ARE COMPETING AGAINST THE SAME KIND OF PEOPLE, genetics,desire,attitude, and will have to take gear to compete because THAT`S the next level. There will always be someone doing it. That little edge. Actually BIG edge I think from natural to gear.

Bottom line if you really want it you gotta go to the dark side . hate to say it, but those are the facts.

 

[bigguns15]

I agree that if you don't have the genetics, training and diet alone are not going to take you to the top alone. However, I got a pretty good set of genetics (thanks mom and dad!), and I believe that I will be on top one day without having to use drugs. Yes, I placed 2nd at nationals this year, and my short term goal is to win there. But, one day I will be going to the world championships to compete against the best. Again, I compete in what is supposed to be a drug free federation, so I am really not up against the Ryan Kennelly's of the world. I'm going to reach the top one day. I've considered the fact that maybe I'm delusional, but I have to believe that I can do this on my own. It's all about testing your mind and body and bringing both to the brink of destruction and building them back up stronger than before. Perhaps I'm saying this only because I have not hit my natural plateau (I really never new such a thing existed). I'm still adding pounds to each of my lifts, albeit slower than before and I don't see it stopping.

All of that said, I don't look down upon anyone that chooses to use AAS (unless they compete in a natural comp). That's a personal choice. I just don't believe you have to do it to be on top.

 

[pwr_machine]

Well said bigguns15.

 

[RusPA81]

It is my personal belief that in this day and age it is necessary to use AAS to get to the top. I believe that the majority of athletes in all sports, both major sports and smaller sports like the Olympics use AAS once they reach the highest level. I think there is reason why certain countries always win the most medals in international competitions and that because they can afford better training and supplements. In major sports like baseball, football etc., it think that use is widespread is as well. Once one person starts to use, the next person has to as well in order not lose a competitive advantage. This is especially true when millions of dollars are at stake and those that do not perform will simply not have a job. Just my opinion.

 

[pwr_machine]

Ok, let's think small....when's the last time you've competed at a national level competition?

 

[RusPA81]

Ok, let's think small....when's the last time you've competed at a national level competition?

If this is addressed to me, then never. The question that was asked however, i believe was about competing at a high level which is why I answered in that regard.

 

[pwr_machine]

Then how can you speak about what it takes to get to the top? Not to be disrespectful to you at all, I just want to know how you can make opinions on issues that you have no experience with.

 

[RusPA81]

Then how can you speak about what it takes to get to the top? Not to be disrespectful to you at all, I just want to know how you can make opinions on issues that you have no experience with.

I never said that I knew this. All that I said was thats what I personally think. I have really no evidence to base this on. However it is a known fact that high level athletes use AAS. I was just saying that I think a lot of them do.

 

[pwr_machine]

I never said that I knew this. All that I said was thats what I personally think. I have really no evidence to base this on. However it is a known fact that high level athletes use AAS. I was just saying that I think a lot of them do.

I agree that a lot of athletes at the top do use AAS, but it is not necessary. Again, it's patience and longevity.

 

[AGP]

there's something about juice that makes me think of 'cheating'.

On the other hand, you aren't competing on a level playing field in this case.. if you are all nat. and your opponent is Juiced up - you really can't compete.

hmm.. what I think i'm saying is it's a moral situation that each person needs to evaluate individually. I wouldn't dream of criticizing someone for doing it, but it's not for me.

T

 

[gonelifting]

You don`t have to go to the moon to know about it. I`ve never used but I know that you NEED it to compete in WORLD CLASS levels. I`m not talking about going to the gym and using to get 20" arms, I`m talking about world class -PERFECT physiques.

let`s see baseball players use it, soccer players, FEMALE TENNIS PLAYERS, let alone thousands of teens probably in all the highschools... lol but not the WORLD ELITE because they have the best genetics? They have great genetics AND USE because the guy behind him IS USING TO GET THE EDGE.

 

[RusPA81]

You don`t have to go to the moon to know about it. I`ve never used but I know that you NEED it to compete in WORLD CLASS levels. I`m not talking about going to the gym and using to get 20" arms, I`m talking about world class -PERFECT physiques.

let`s see baseball players use it, soccer players, FEMALE TENNIS PLAYERS, let alone thousands of teens probably in all the highschools... lol but not the WORLD ELITE because they have the best genetics? They have great genetics AND USE because the guy behind him IS USING TO GET THE EDGE.

Exactly my point.

 

[casualbb]

I think it depends on a person's goal.

My goal should by all means be achievable without AAS. Because of that, if I used them, I would feel like I were cheating.

Now, if my goal were to be 240 and ripped or the top national powerlifter, then there is little chance I can achieve either without AAS. Then I wouldn't feel like I were cheating.

-casual

 

[Zander1983]

I think it depends on a person's goal.

My goal should by all means be achievable without AAS. Because of that, if I used them, I would feel like I were cheating.

Now, if my goal were to be 240 and ripped or the top national powerlifter, then there is little chance I can achieve either without AAS. Then I wouldn't feel like I were cheating.

-casual

That's an interesting definition for cheating.

For me, cheating is violating rules deliberately, acting dishonestly, practicing fraud, deceive/deprive by trickery etc...

If you wanted to be 240 and ripped and there is little chance for you to achieve that without AAS within all your powers, then how are you violating rules, acting dishonestly etc? You're not deceiving or depriving anybody.

I digress. Its not like my point is leading anywhere whatsoever. A mere observation.

 

[endpoint]

I agree that a lot of athletes at the top do use AAS, but it is not necessary. Again, it's patience and longevity.

yeah if you play darts or bowls.....how about curling?

The human body has its limits.

why do you think the "drug free" and untested divisions vary so much in poundages/speed/height/distance etc etc

a well trained untested athlete will always beat a well trained natural athlete.....unless they are a super monster genetic freaks

 

[RusPA81]

yeah if you play darts or bowls.....how about curling?

The human body has its limits.

why do you think the "drug free" and untested divisions vary so much in poundages/speed/height/distance etc etc

a well trained untested athlete will always beat a well trained natural athlete.....unless they are a super monster genetic freaks

In general I agree with this statement. What really makes me mad though is for example when people claim Barry Bonds is good because of steriods. Now I do not doubt that he uses roids at all, nor does it bother me. You can't however tell me that roids are responsible for superior vision and hand and bat speed. That is all natural skill. I guess my point is that roids are a huge advantage but you to really the best you must first have natural skills and ablilities.

 

[Liftbig]

I read it, and understood it. I must, however, respectfully disagree with the "competition with oneself" idea. I am my only competition. I try to beat myself each workout. I don't look around the gym and eye some dude benching 405 for reps and think, "that fucker is gonna have to answer to MY lifts one day ..."

ill have to disagree with you on this one, to get to the top you have to beat people, you HAVE to look around that gym, eye someone who is stronger than you and work like hell to whoop their ass. once you do, find another one. thats how you get to the top, its survival. basically prey or be preyed upon, cuase at anytime someone else with the same mentality will be knocking on your door.

as far as AAS goes, to get to the top imo you will need some "help" thats just the way it is, humans are so competitive that is must be that way. will you let your competitor get the upper hand on you?

 

[pwr_machine]

yeah if you play darts or bowls.....how about curling?

The human body has its limits.

why do you think the "drug free" and untested divisions vary so much in poundages/speed/height/distance etc etc

a well trained untested athlete will always beat a well trained natural athlete.....unless they are a super monster genetic freaks

Then bigguns15 is headed to the top of a predominately drug-tested organization...USAPL. And I personally don't give a rats ass about the non-tested and high squattin' organizations.

 

[needsize]

It also depends on what sport you are talking about getting to the top in, I am a bodybuilder myself, and have trained around champions, and there is no way you can get anywhere competively in this sport without steroids

 

[RusPA81]

It also depends on what sport you are talking about getting to the top in, I am a bodybuilder myself, and have trained around champions, and there is no way you can get anywhere competively in this sport without steroids

Thats the thing. In my opinion in almost any sport there is heavy roid use and if you look at the people at the top, they use somekind of steriod whether it is an anabolic or something like EPO. Peoples drive to get to top will make them go to great lengths to get there. Its just the way the game is played these days.

 

[endpoint]

Then bigguns15 is headed to the top of a predominately drug-tested organization...USAPL. And I personally don't give a rats ass about the non-tested and high squattin' organizations.

Thats your bag baby.

good luck bigguns

 

[endpoint]

Thats the thing. In my opinion in almost any sport there is heavy roid use and if you look at the people at the top, they use somekind of steriod whether it is an anabolic or something like EPO. Peoples drive to get to top will make them go to great lengths to get there. Its just the way the game is played these days.

anyone read speed trap by charles francis?

Its a good read (thanks coolcol).