using 10mg eod of nolva do harm to a female?

[Counterstrike]

this girl started exercising and a diet. the diet is not really so much a diet started her on clen thought after the cycle of clen is over to put her in nolva 10mg eod for about 4 weeks tosee if assist in estrogen fat i thought about it for myself as guy also good or bad idea?

 

[MS]

Bad idea. Try using that search button in the top right corner of this page. Maybe limit your search to this women's board and find out why tamoxifen is not a great idea for most women, and may even make her fatter!

 

[MS]

OK, here's a cut-n-paste from a previous thread......

What we now know about tamoxifen and bodyfat should scare any women away from using it for fat loss (not including the
increased risk of ovarian cancer)! There are two classes of estrogen receptors. One called alpha and one called beta.
Tamoxifen and it’s hyroxylated metabolites are agonists/anatagonists at the alpha receptors and not the beta. The alpha
receptors are plentiful in breast tissue and this makes tamoxifen very good at reducing the effects of estrogen in breast
cancer and male gyno. Sadly, the alpha receptor is actually beneficial to reducing subcutaneous fat, and blocking it with
tamoxifen is less than beneficial to put it nicely! Aside from that, check out the last of these three studies where they
found a significant increase in body fat for women that were treated with tamoxifen!

Site-specific regulation of oestrogen receptor-alpha and -beta by oestradiol in human adipose tissue.

AIM: To examine the expression of oestrogen receptors alpha and beta (ERalpha and ERbeta) and their regulation by
17beta- oestradiol (E2) in adipocytes from human subcutaneous tissue. METHODS: Subcutaneous tissues were obtained
from 10 women ……………………….in adipocytes treated with estradiol, ERalpha expression significantly decreased relative to
control while ERbeta expression increased………………... The feed-back inhibition of ERalpha expression by estradiol in
subcutaneous adipocytes observed in vitro is consistent with the data from ERalpha knock out mice WHERE
SUBCUTANEOUS FAT IS INCREASED. Selective ER modulators may have different effects in different adipose sites.


Demonstration of estrogen receptor subtypes alpha and beta in human adipose tissue: influences of adipose cell
differentiation and fat depot localization.

A novel ER-subtype, the ER-beta has recently been characterized in various tissues, ………………….. ER-alpha and beta were
studied in human adipose tissue. The expression of ER-alpha mRNA was equal in subcutaneous gluteal adipose tissue,
subcutaneous abdominal and intra-abdominal adipose tissue, similar findings were obtained at the protein level.
……………….. the existence of ER-beta isoforms in human adipose tissue was demonstrated and THE AMOUNT OF THESE
RECEPTORS WAS DEPENDENT UPON FAT DEPOT LOCALIZATION, WITH MUCH REDUCED EXPRESSION OF ER-BETA IN
INTRA-ABDOMINAL ADIPOSE TISSUE COMPARED TO SUBCUTANEOUS ADIPOSE TISSUE. These findings may indicate that
estrogens and SERMs could have differentiation and depot specific effects in human adipose tissue.

Body composition measurements using DXA and other techniques in tamoxifen-treated patients.

Tamoxifen is an anti-oestrogenic drug which is widely used in the treatment of patients with breast cancer. There is
increasing interest in using the drug both for benign breast disease and as a chemo-preventative agent of the drug in
women at high risk of breast cancer. Despite the fact that the acute side-effects of the drug are few, its agonistic and
antagonistic oestrogenic effects are not fully known and may have some undesirable effects for patients treated with the
drug for several years. A number of studies carried out recently indicate a varying degree of change in bone mineral
content following treatment with tamoxifen. These studies concentrated mainly on bone mineral density measurements
only and non of them reported the effects of tamoxifen on lean body mass and fat mass. In this study we measured lean
body mass and fat mass in tamoxifen-treated females and a comparison group to determine the difference between the
two groups. Twenty-six women receiving tamoxifen (20 mg/d) have participated in this study. The control group
comprised 31 healthy women of a similar age. Total body bone mineral was measured using a dual-energy X-ray
absorptiometry (DXA). Similarly, regional and total body soft tissue (lean and fat tissue) were measured using the DXA
system. In addition to DXA measurements, percentage body fat (%BF) was measured using total body potassium
counting, skinfold anthropometry, infrared interactance and bioelectric impedance analysis. …………………. there was a
significant difference between the two groups (P < 0.05) for %BF measurement. Similarly there was a significant
difference between the two groups (P < 0.05) for %BF measured by other body composition techniques. Although there is
no other research reported on the effects of tamoxifen on %BF, this retrospective study indicates that tamoxifen may
lead to increase in fat content in women who are subjected to this treatment. WE CONCLUDE THAT THIS OBSERVATION IS
PROBABLY RELATED TO THE AGONISTIC OESTROGENIC EFFECT OF TAMOXIFEN ON BODY FAT. To our knowledge this
deleterious effect has not been reported before and it should be taken into considerable when comprising different types
of anti-oestrogenic drugs. Furthermore, patients should be warned about this side-effect when they are prescribed
Tamoxifen therapy.

 

[hardbdygrl]

MS, would those side effects take place if you only used nolva say 1 week before a show?

 

[MS]

I don't think so hardbdygrl, and as I've speculated elsewhere, tamoxifen *May* be useful for very lean women (below ~12%bf) to help them get a little bit leaner. My theory (which could easily be wrong) is that tamoxifen works via increasing leptin levels. If your leptin is already high (like most non-lean women's) then increasing it even more with tamoxifen is actually detrimental. But if leptin is low due to extended dieting and low bodyfat levels, then it may help.

 

[hardbdygrl]

Thanks MS... i used it for the last week of my show in March and i saw a huuuge difference in my legs...so it worked great for me... I am usually 8% b/f off season..and for my show i was around 5%.

I just didnt know if once i came off of the nolva if i would experience those rebounds...i did experience a rebound, but that was just from being so depleted..so not sure if the nolva had anything to do with it...But i plan on using it again for my next show only for the last week though.

 

[wilson6]

HBG,

The huge difference had to be something else. Think of it this way.

Does anyone notice a HUGE difference in one week on OX?

Visible changes in fat or muscle take time as a function of some intervention that alters mRNA and eventually protein, my guess is that there was something else going on with water, relatively independent of the tamoxifen that caused the change. Taking tamoxifen a week before a show and expecting big changes would be like taking OX one week before a show and expecting big changes. In fact, the lipolytic effects of OX are established, I have yet to see a study that demonstrates lipolytic effects of tamoxifen in any model, only those that suggest an increase or no change with tamoxifen, and the women I've worked with who are on tamoxifen for medical reasons all complain about an increase in bodyfat, not decrease.

Fast changes are usually a function of changes in sub-Q water and/or increased muscle glycogen and the water that follows into the muscle along with the continued slow progression of fat loss the last week before a show.

I think a lot of competitors would be surprised at how much shit they take precontest that actually does very little, if anything. The only benefits are psychological because everyone else does it, then they must otherwise they won't have the edge.

W6

 

[hardbdygrl]

w6,

That makes perfect sense....The only reason i used the nolva was b/c i ran out of proviron the last week, so i thought i needed to take something to hold me over..and nolva was the only think i had..... So you are very right, by sayingi t is all psychological

I didnt notice the cuts in my legs until i saw pictures of myself from the show...

BUt by taking that for only 1 week would that be enough to cause increased bodyfat and set off a rebound after one would stop taking it?

 

[MS]

"BUt by taking that for only 1 week would that be enough to cause increased bodyfat and set off a rebound after one
would stop taking it?"..........almost certainly not unless for some unknown (and previously undocumented) reason the tamoxifen affected your fluid distribution as Wilson6 said. This could cause fluid rebound, but unlikely to cause 'estrogen' rebound above and beyond what you would expect anyway from getting down to 5%bf!!!

 

[wilson6]

So.......maybe the difference had to do with stopping proviron vs adding in tamoxifen?

That's the problem with the multi-drug issue. One never really knows what is doing what.

W6