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Tweakle
New member
Good solid stuff. reminds me of the better advice from the old days of the hg roundtable (before they started banging on about 'flexing up' 20lb dumbells and other rubbish)
I dont buy the no direct arm or calf work argument, I've never worked my arms or calfs and they're both terrible
I dont buy the no direct arm or calf work argument, I've never worked my arms or calfs and they're both terrible
Good post, karma to you.
I would, though, like to say that for the completely untrained individual any routine that gets them in the gym M-W-F every week will produce big gains for their first three months. But I also think that you are absolutely right about the people who have been training "lightly" for many years with exercises designed to isolate some muscle (that they don't have). I would, therefore, state more explicitly that certain heavy compound movements (especially squats and deadlifts) have been clinically shown to produce the most anabolic state (without drugs). Make it clear to the beginner that doing squats will add muscle to their whole body.
My last thought. I would expand the discussion of correct form. In my experience watching people at my gym, too many of them turn bicep curls into back workouts and bench presses become hamstring exercises. One member at my gym "benches" 450 by arching his butt way off the bench and sort of raising and lowering his chest to the extended bar--his elbows barely bend. (Maybe I should say did, because he finally hurt his back.)
I would, though, like to say that for the completely untrained individual any routine that gets them in the gym M-W-F every week will produce big gains for their first three months. But I also think that you are absolutely right about the people who have been training "lightly" for many years with exercises designed to isolate some muscle (that they don't have). I would, therefore, state more explicitly that certain heavy compound movements (especially squats and deadlifts) have been clinically shown to produce the most anabolic state (without drugs). Make it clear to the beginner that doing squats will add muscle to their whole body.
My last thought. I would expand the discussion of correct form. In my experience watching people at my gym, too many of them turn bicep curls into back workouts and bench presses become hamstring exercises. One member at my gym "benches" 450 by arching his butt way off the bench and sort of raising and lowering his chest to the extended bar--his elbows barely bend. (Maybe I should say did, because he finally hurt his back.)
BigBadBootyDaddy29
New member
Excellent post, I couldn't agree more with everything you said. I am not just saying this either, as far as I am concerned, this is right up there with a Bill Starr or CS Sloan article, great work.
A lot of times people use the excuse of "shocking" their muscles because they are bored or lazy or wimp out and would prefer the hack machine over squats.
Debaser, what are your thoughts on techniques like box squats, band and chain work, and speed work for beginners? (I am not trying to hijack the thread, so if you want, PM me and I will start a new thread on the subject, and edit my reply to this).
I personally see NO reason for a beginner to train in any other fashion that what you just listed.
Some members of this board may explode with rage and put their fist through the computer screen when they read what I am about to type, but I have been lifting weights 100% serious, non-stop since I was 13 years old. I'm 24 now, and while there are others with more experience, I am by no means a beginner or newbie or a know-nothing 150lb teenager. I think I am qualified to state an opinion that deserves consideration.
Debaser, the routine you just outlined in a key to progress for years. I think if most trainees stuck to something like this, they would see results for years upon years. When progress slows from just doing basic movements, I feel band work, chain work, speed work, box squats, floor presses, boards, etc. can be used, BUT only after one has attained the status of an advanced weight lifter. Unconventional routines like WSB work so well for advanced athletes because they already have the base you talk about, they have trained like you outlined for years and years and have finally begun to see their progress slow down.
I think methods like WSB put an advanced lifter with potential to be something special to the next level, but I see no need for a beginner to do that stuff. I mean, it is hard enough to remember to sit back when you squat WITHOUT having t oworry if your bands are fastened right or your box is the right height.
I am impressed when a Louie Simmons or a Dave Tate takes a guy with an 800lb squat whose progress may have slowed and turns him into a 1,000lb squatter with 405 speed squats or when a 585 bench presser becomes a member of the 700 club by addressing his weak points. My point is that a beginner's whole body is their weak point, the whole leg is weak, not simply the hams, the whole group of muscles used in benching is weak, not just the tris. I feel good old benching and squatting until progress halts needs to occur before any unconventional methods should be used.
Same goes for bodybuilding, you can't go for separation, striations, and detail if their is no muscle to "dial-in" in the first place.
I think a beginning trainee using advanced techniques and straying from the basics you outlined is right on par with a newbie using AAS, it is laughable. It is downright laughable to me to see a 16 yr old kid shooting test Cypionate in his ass, it is downright laughable to me seeing a guy who is 6'1" and 175lbs doing cable crossovers, and it is downright laughable to me seeing a guy doing speed box squats with 75lbs, and I could put my fist through the computer screen when I read a post like "New push press PR, 135x2!!!", I encourage the person, but PM them and ask how their strict press is. The great Bill Starr once said that anybody who can't strict press 205 for 3 reps has absolutely no business push pressing. It is an advanced technique, and avanced techniques are for advanced athletes who have their base work done, who have that core strength and are now stuck. You'd gain much more if you build your base.....much like AAS use (it is fucking stupid unless you're a very advanced athlete).
Debaser, I agree with you 100% (I never thought I would see myself type that in this lifetime). There would be a lot less weak people out there if they stopped looking for some magical, innovative way to train and just stuck with the basics until progress halted, at which point you try WSB if you're a strength athlete or isolation techniques if you're a bodybuilder.
To close, before I get flamed to hell and receive banned level karma, I hope I didn't disrespect anybody, and I hope I made my point clearly and in a way that will not offend. I have a great deal of respect for WSB, I box squat, I have speed days, but I have lifted for 11 years, not 11 months.
A lot of times people use the excuse of "shocking" their muscles because they are bored or lazy or wimp out and would prefer the hack machine over squats.
Debaser, what are your thoughts on techniques like box squats, band and chain work, and speed work for beginners? (I am not trying to hijack the thread, so if you want, PM me and I will start a new thread on the subject, and edit my reply to this).
I personally see NO reason for a beginner to train in any other fashion that what you just listed.
Some members of this board may explode with rage and put their fist through the computer screen when they read what I am about to type, but I have been lifting weights 100% serious, non-stop since I was 13 years old. I'm 24 now, and while there are others with more experience, I am by no means a beginner or newbie or a know-nothing 150lb teenager. I think I am qualified to state an opinion that deserves consideration.
Debaser, the routine you just outlined in a key to progress for years. I think if most trainees stuck to something like this, they would see results for years upon years. When progress slows from just doing basic movements, I feel band work, chain work, speed work, box squats, floor presses, boards, etc. can be used, BUT only after one has attained the status of an advanced weight lifter. Unconventional routines like WSB work so well for advanced athletes because they already have the base you talk about, they have trained like you outlined for years and years and have finally begun to see their progress slow down.
I think methods like WSB put an advanced lifter with potential to be something special to the next level, but I see no need for a beginner to do that stuff. I mean, it is hard enough to remember to sit back when you squat WITHOUT having t oworry if your bands are fastened right or your box is the right height.
I am impressed when a Louie Simmons or a Dave Tate takes a guy with an 800lb squat whose progress may have slowed and turns him into a 1,000lb squatter with 405 speed squats or when a 585 bench presser becomes a member of the 700 club by addressing his weak points. My point is that a beginner's whole body is their weak point, the whole leg is weak, not simply the hams, the whole group of muscles used in benching is weak, not just the tris. I feel good old benching and squatting until progress halts needs to occur before any unconventional methods should be used.
Same goes for bodybuilding, you can't go for separation, striations, and detail if their is no muscle to "dial-in" in the first place.
I think a beginning trainee using advanced techniques and straying from the basics you outlined is right on par with a newbie using AAS, it is laughable. It is downright laughable to me to see a 16 yr old kid shooting test Cypionate in his ass, it is downright laughable to me seeing a guy who is 6'1" and 175lbs doing cable crossovers, and it is downright laughable to me seeing a guy doing speed box squats with 75lbs, and I could put my fist through the computer screen when I read a post like "New push press PR, 135x2!!!", I encourage the person, but PM them and ask how their strict press is. The great Bill Starr once said that anybody who can't strict press 205 for 3 reps has absolutely no business push pressing. It is an advanced technique, and avanced techniques are for advanced athletes who have their base work done, who have that core strength and are now stuck. You'd gain much more if you build your base.....much like AAS use (it is fucking stupid unless you're a very advanced athlete).
Debaser, I agree with you 100% (I never thought I would see myself type that in this lifetime). There would be a lot less weak people out there if they stopped looking for some magical, innovative way to train and just stuck with the basics until progress halted, at which point you try WSB if you're a strength athlete or isolation techniques if you're a bodybuilder.
To close, before I get flamed to hell and receive banned level karma, I hope I didn't disrespect anybody, and I hope I made my point clearly and in a way that will not offend. I have a great deal of respect for WSB, I box squat, I have speed days, but I have lifted for 11 years, not 11 months.
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Debaser
Guest
We're definitely on the same wavelength. I personally believe it is unnecessary to focus on weakpoints or do specialized work until one has achieved a certain level of strength. When you start to get past the intermediate level, it seems that such techniques could be very beneficial, but I doubt anyone needs 6 different supportive bench exercises when they can't put up 200 lbs. To me this is simply a state of overall weakness, not a glaring weakness in their tris or what-have-you. This can make a trainee's life overly complex. He could start to needlessly worry about factors that don't necessarily matter, when he should just be focusing on adding some damn weight to his bench (whether it's 1 lb or 5 lbs) every single time. With many cases of failed lifts with beginners or intermediates, their weakness was not necessary evident, they simply tried to add too much weight too quickly. Your body can only respond to weights so quickly. Don't expect to add 10, or even 5 lbs to your bench every time if you trained to failure on your last session. Patience is a virtue. I have the utmost respect for WSB but I don't believe it is necessary for raw beginners.
Here's something to think about. Let's say you benched 200 lbs now. If you added a "measly" 1 lb each time you lifted, that would be about a 50 lb increase each year. This is on the low side as you'd most likely be able to add a bit more than that (25-50 more lbs). How long have most of you been weight training? I see posters that say 1 lb each time is "worthless" when they've been training for several years and have yet to break 300 lbs. Maybe if they stuck to a basic program such as this they would be stronger.
Here's something to think about. Let's say you benched 200 lbs now. If you added a "measly" 1 lb each time you lifted, that would be about a 50 lb increase each year. This is on the low side as you'd most likely be able to add a bit more than that (25-50 more lbs). How long have most of you been weight training? I see posters that say 1 lb each time is "worthless" when they've been training for several years and have yet to break 300 lbs. Maybe if they stuck to a basic program such as this they would be stronger.
BBD over the last few months I have given a good deal of thought to the ideas you just posted. At first I would have totally agreed with that but there is a few things that I have realized.
First: I don't think anyone needs to switch movements or employ a conjugated periodisation scheme until they have exhausted neuro-muscular efficiency gains. In other words, a beginner will get more from just doing the movement, for example squatting. It is hard to bring up weak points when the form is not perfect and the motor learning path is set, because until that point form and technique is the biggest weakness, and technique will only improve with continuous practice.
That being said all the other components of a WSB program, accomodated resistance, speed strength development, ar, gpp, ect. are suitable for the beginner on his first day. If you are training a beginner athlete or powerlifter, WSB is a great choice because it will allow plenty of room to accomodate the learning curve and allow the trainee to adapt and master the movements.
For a beginner you wouldn't switch exercises as much instead lets take squat for example:
Monday:
High Box Squat (reps somewhere in the 30 range)
front squat about 25 total reps
either a clean or snatch pull from the floor (25)
Friday:
Dynamic Squat at same box height 10 x 3
Overhead squat (the sooner they lean this the sooner they will be able to learn to squat properly) somewhere around 30 total reps
Single Leg Squats 30ish
this should be done for at least three weeks before switching movements and the volume is such that they will have plenty of opportunity to learn the exercises, and the supplemental exercises will help develop the flexibilty and balance to make this easier.
First: I don't think anyone needs to switch movements or employ a conjugated periodisation scheme until they have exhausted neuro-muscular efficiency gains. In other words, a beginner will get more from just doing the movement, for example squatting. It is hard to bring up weak points when the form is not perfect and the motor learning path is set, because until that point form and technique is the biggest weakness, and technique will only improve with continuous practice.
That being said all the other components of a WSB program, accomodated resistance, speed strength development, ar, gpp, ect. are suitable for the beginner on his first day. If you are training a beginner athlete or powerlifter, WSB is a great choice because it will allow plenty of room to accomodate the learning curve and allow the trainee to adapt and master the movements.
For a beginner you wouldn't switch exercises as much instead lets take squat for example:
Monday:
High Box Squat (reps somewhere in the 30 range)
front squat about 25 total reps
either a clean or snatch pull from the floor (25)
Friday:
Dynamic Squat at same box height 10 x 3
Overhead squat (the sooner they lean this the sooner they will be able to learn to squat properly) somewhere around 30 total reps
Single Leg Squats 30ish
this should be done for at least three weeks before switching movements and the volume is such that they will have plenty of opportunity to learn the exercises, and the supplemental exercises will help develop the flexibilty and balance to make this easier.
BigBadBootyDaddy29
New member
IL, I see exactly what you mean. The main factor in squatting form is sitting back, and with box squats and the overhead squat, it is basically sit back or die. I have enough respect for you and your opinion to honestly think about what you said and think long and hard about it and see if my opinion shifts a little and isn't so right-wing so to speak.
But, man, it just seems complicated for a beginner to sit back on a box. I read post after post on here about newer trainees having problems with the form on the box squat, they would have trouble with a traditional squat too, but I just think the old-fashioned way is much easier to grasp to someone new to lifting. I learned t osquat properly in 8th grade, and the first time I box squatted was my Sr year in college. A strength coach told me about them, I watched him do it, listened to a step by step intro, and the first time I ever did them my form was text-book perfection. Am I some sort of lifting genious? no, but after 8 years of squatting the box squat was just so easy to grasp because I was already at an advanced level. And when I see people having trouble sitting back or relaxing the hips, or hitting the box too hard, or folding up on the box, I just think that they should put the box away and learn how to freaking squat first.
IL, you're the man, and I am seriously going to think and rethink what you said, but just think about this. Did you ever teach like a younger brother or sister or cousin or girlfriend or someone how to drive a stick shift? Would it be easier to show them with a Honda Civic or with Dale Ernhardt's stock car? If you wanna be the best driver in the world, the stock car is as inevitable as the box squat, but it is baptism by fire, right now I just think you have to learn on the simple little civic and master that, then the stock car, which is WSB will come that much more naturally.
But, man, it just seems complicated for a beginner to sit back on a box. I read post after post on here about newer trainees having problems with the form on the box squat, they would have trouble with a traditional squat too, but I just think the old-fashioned way is much easier to grasp to someone new to lifting. I learned t osquat properly in 8th grade, and the first time I box squatted was my Sr year in college. A strength coach told me about them, I watched him do it, listened to a step by step intro, and the first time I ever did them my form was text-book perfection. Am I some sort of lifting genious? no, but after 8 years of squatting the box squat was just so easy to grasp because I was already at an advanced level. And when I see people having trouble sitting back or relaxing the hips, or hitting the box too hard, or folding up on the box, I just think that they should put the box away and learn how to freaking squat first.
IL, you're the man, and I am seriously going to think and rethink what you said, but just think about this. Did you ever teach like a younger brother or sister or cousin or girlfriend or someone how to drive a stick shift? Would it be easier to show them with a Honda Civic or with Dale Ernhardt's stock car? If you wanna be the best driver in the world, the stock car is as inevitable as the box squat, but it is baptism by fire, right now I just think you have to learn on the simple little civic and master that, then the stock car, which is WSB will come that much more naturally.
D
Debaser
Guest
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