PROOF? You Decide.

[hurricane]

interesting thread.. but who is right here?

 

[alphatest]

interesting thread.. but who is right here?

Nelson is wrong. I have to say I read threads at this board a lot and a number of Nelson's "theories" don't seemed back by much hard evidence. Too much product pushing, too little clinical evidence.


Effects of chronic testosterone administration in normal men: safety and efficacy of high dosage testosterone and parallel dose-dependent suppression of luteinizing hormone, follicle-stimulating hormone, and sperm production.


In normal men, chronic testosterone (T) administration results in negative feedback suppression of gonadotropin and sperm production. However, azoospermia is achieved in only 50-70% of men treated with high dosages of T. Furthermore, the relative sensitivity of LH and FSH secretion to chronic administration of more physiological dosages of T is unclear. We determined whether a T dosage higher than those previously given would be more or less effective in suppressing spermatogenesis and whether, within the physiological range, T would exert a more selective effect on LH than on FSH secretion. After a 4- to 6-month control period, 51 normal men were randomly assigned to treatment groups (n = 9-12/group) receiving either sesame oil (1 mL) or T enanthate (25, 50, 100, or 300 mg, im) weekly for 6 months. Monthly LH and FSH levels by RIA and twice monthly sperm counts were determined. During treatment, T levels were measured daily between two weekly injections. Chronic T administration in physiological to moderately supraphysiological dosages resulted in parallel dose-dependent suppression of LH, FSH, and sperm production. T enanthate (50 mg/week) suppressed LH and FSH levels and sperm counts to 50% of those in placebo-treated men (ED50). T enanthate (300 mg/week), was no more effective than 100 mg/week in suppressing LH, FSH, and sperm production. Serum T levels in men who received 100 and 300 mg/week T enanthate were 1.5- and 3-fold higher than those in placebo-treated men, respectively. Except for mild truncal acne, weight gain, and increases in hematocrit, we detected no significant adverse health effects of chronic high dosage T administration. We conclude that 1) LH and FSH secretion are equally sensitive to the long term negative feedback effects of T administration; 2) sperm production is suppressed in parallel with the LH and FSH reductions induced by chronic T administration; and 3) even at the clearly supraphysiological dosage of 300 mg/week, T enanthate does not reliably induce azoospermia in normal men. However, there was also no evidence of a stimulatory effect of this T dosage on spermatogenesis. Furthermore, we found no evidence of major adverse health effects of T administered chronically even at the highest dosage.

 

[redsamurai]

only gh and igf for me for the rest of my life. Test, and roids in general......just never really worked for me. I've got a higher libido now that I've been completely off for 8-9 months. I feel alot better and have more energy when I'm clean or just using gh/igf. If they weren't so god damn expensive I'd be on one of them or both year round. My future gear use "may" consist of a few weeks of deca if joint problems pop up again.........other than that, I"m done with the T molecule.

 

[ceo]

Nelson is wrong. I have to say I read threads at this board a lot and a number of Nelson's "theories" don't seemed back by much hard evidence. Too much product pushing, too little clinical evidence.


Effects of chronic testosterone administration in normal men: safety and efficacy of high dosage testosterone and parallel dose-dependent suppression of luteinizing hormone, follicle-stimulating hormone, and sperm production.


In normal men, chronic testosterone (T) administration results in negative feedback suppression of gonadotropin and sperm production. However, azoospermia is achieved in only 50-70% of men treated with high dosages of T. Furthermore, the relative sensitivity of LH and FSH secretion to chronic administration of more physiological dosages of T is unclear. We determined whether a T dosage higher than those previously given would be more or less effective in suppressing spermatogenesis and whether, within the physiological range, T would exert a more selective effect on LH than on FSH secretion. After a 4- to 6-month control period, 51 normal men were randomly assigned to treatment groups (n = 9-12/group) receiving either sesame oil (1 mL) or T enanthate (25, 50, 100, or 300 mg, im) weekly for 6 months. Monthly LH and FSH levels by RIA and twice monthly sperm counts were determined. During treatment, T levels were measured daily between two weekly injections. Chronic T administration in physiological to moderately supraphysiological dosages resulted in parallel dose-dependent suppression of LH, FSH, and sperm production. T enanthate (50 mg/week) suppressed LH and FSH levels and sperm counts to 50% of those in placebo-treated men (ED50). T enanthate (300 mg/week), was no more effective than 100 mg/week in suppressing LH, FSH, and sperm production. Serum T levels in men who received 100 and 300 mg/week T enanthate were 1.5- and 3-fold higher than those in placebo-treated men, respectively. Except for mild truncal acne, weight gain, and increases in hematocrit, we detected no significant adverse health effects of chronic high dosage T administration. We conclude that 1) LH and FSH secretion are equally sensitive to the long term negative feedback effects of T administration; 2) sperm production is suppressed in parallel with the LH and FSH reductions induced by chronic T administration; and 3) even at the clearly supraphysiological dosage of 300 mg/week, T enanthate does not reliably induce azoospermia in normal men. However, there was also no evidence of a stimulatory effect of this T dosage on spermatogenesis. Furthermore, we found no evidence of major adverse health effects of T administered chronically even at the highest dosage.

rut roh!

banned!!

 

[bw1]

interesting thread.. but who is right here?

One sure way to find out. If Nelson came off and then checked his test levels.

 

[Ross]

Guys, I am always right.

 

[Nelson Montana]

Yes, 100mgs every week will put you exactly around 900NG/DL

Come completely OFF, you will be down to the 100's.

Nah, more like 600 -- each mg increasing test approx 4 ngs. (Assuming I'm as low as 200 naturally, which STILL is not shut down).

And the other point is the free T. Guys can take a ton of test but if SHBG is high they'll only be utilizing a fraction of it. The ideal here is to make the most of what you've got, both naturally and enhanced.

 

[centy]

One sure way to find out. If Nelson came off and then checked his test levels.

Sounds like fun.

 

[Ross]

Nah, more like 600 -- each mg increasing test approx 4 ngs. (Assuming I'm as low as 200 naturally, which STILL is not shut down).

And the other point is the free T. Guys can take a ton of test but if SHBG is high they'll only be utilizing a fraction of it. The ideal here is to make the most of what you've got, both naturally and enhanced.

Nelson, so long as you are on ANY DOSAGE OF EXOGENOUS TESTOSTERONE, your blood testosterone level is NOT NATURAL.

On 100mgs of Testosterone weekly(depending on the individual), most men will be around 600-900ng/dl. This is NOT your natural production Nelson, this is exogenous testosterone.

Come OFF for 12 weeks, get tested again, you will be LOW--VERY LOW.

 

[ireekofawesomeness]

rut roh!

banned!!

ZoiKS!!!