Pro and cons for 2 workouts a day

[MrMuscle]

i just got laid off from work. and having alot of time on my hands i've thought about splitting training in two. like back in the days. i would be doing one musclegroups in the morning, and one in the evening. anybody ever tried this? and what pros and cons do you have to offer?

 

[diamonddiceclay]

the pros do this when contest prepping-if you are feeling good and have the time, it may work for you-give it a shot

 

[110%]

the only thing that i could think of that would keep me from ever doing it is I believe in maximum recovery, so around 75 grams dextrose postworkout. though if you are working out two times a day, that would mean 150 grams of dextrose a day, i couldnt not imagine at all taking this amount of sugar a day, i think it owuld lead to fat.

 

[tzan]

Mr. Muscle, if you scroll down a little bit, I posted a question about 2X a day splits. I got a few good posts that had links on them leading me to some different articles and routines on this.

 

[BodybuildingUniverse]

you will overtrain quickly doing this if you are natural. Your picture looks like you know better

 

[MrMuscle]

like i said..i have not tried this yet..so im just looking for opinions.

i dont understand the overtraining bit. i wont hit a muscle more than before..just instead of doing 2 musclegroups at once, i will do one in the am and one in the pm. the rest period for each musclegroup will still be 6 days.

and yes i am natural

 

[gymtime]

I think it's too much. It'll cut into your recovery too much. I wouldn't do it.

 

[SSAlexSS]

i just got laid off from work. and having alot of time on my hands i've thought about splitting training in two. like back in the days. i would be doing one musclegroups in the morning, and one in the evening. anybody ever tried this? and what pros and cons do you have to offer?

PROS - better recovery and more volume.
CONS - take more time and you have to have 2 post workout shakes now.

 

[SSAlexSS]

you will overtrain quickly doing this if you are natural. Your picture looks like you know better

Having LIGHT workout later in the evening for the same muscle group WILL make it recover faster.

 

[Lord_Suston]

time constraints are a big facxtor since you want ample time for nutrition and rest. I know it is really hard for my body to do two INTENSE workouts at max levels in one day. I feel you would be shorting yourself, a little cardio and fine tuning might be in order. Such as calves and abs at night...

 

[FitnessFrk]

Originally posted by SSAlexSS
Having LIGHT workout later in the evening for the same muscle group WILL make it recover faster.

that is 100% incorrect and is not how active recovery works.

 

[gmanlax7]

I would think the second workout would make a lot of the earlier stuff obsolete, too much wear and tear on muscles involved in both, like the arms i guess. Kind of like people who go to the gym and will do one muscle group for 3 hours, this cant be good can it?

 

[SSAlexSS]

that is 100% incorrect and is not how active recovery works.

Recovery will speed up with a light workout.

Research has shown that. Your soreness will be gone, your enomorphines will put you in state of high ... (grass will do it better anyways).

And you pain will disappear!


It seems that the best way is still to do high volume. For advanced people its up to 6 days per week 2x daily.


If it was as easy as doing few sets few times per week to build muscle,
dont you think MORE people would be bigger???


Guys like Arthur Jones are more intersted in markteing their equipment to as much people as possible.
That how business works! Now you would get only hardocre bodybuilders/strength athletes buy his equipment. General Public wants an easy way out. They want to beleive that 1 set 1 per week per muscle is enough. Arthur Jones WANT more people to buy his equipment! And besides if you spend less time at his machines, more people will be able to use it... More revenue , McDonalds style!! fast take-out!


Frankly I wish it could be the case. Howeever riches only go to the strong!

 

[SSAlexSS]

I would think the second workout would make a lot of the earlier stuff obsolete, too much wear and tear on muscles involved in both, like the arms i guess. Kind of like people who go to the gym and will do one muscle group for 3 hours, this cant be good can it?

More tension is equal to more stimulation!

Ed Coan doesnt complain that his 875 pound squat for 3 tears him up. Russian national powerlifting team who benches up to 8 times per week dopesnt complain of all the heavy weight ruining their joints.

ARNOLD DIDNT COMPLAIN about double split training PLUS 14 hours of driving tanks.

Hungarian weightlifters (one of the best) train up to like 20 times per week. They dont strike and quit from such workload! They suck it up and do what works best!

If you are afraid of hurting yourself, then just quit. Bodybuilding isnt sport where you hug other people and spend time with flowers!!

 

[SSAlexSS]

time constraints are a big facxtor since you want ample time for nutrition and rest. I know it is really hard for my body to do two INTENSE workouts at max levels in one day. I feel you would be shorting yourself, a little cardio and fine tuning might be in order. Such as calves and abs at night...

Training at the night ofcourse cant be as intense as the one before... Z(Actually trainign for second time after 2-3 hour break increased my strength in squatting.


Howeever dont underwork, whioch is often the reason why people dont gain. And dont cite studies that (falsely) say that you should train less.


Here is good quote from t-mag
Guys today "can't" squat because of their back problems. Arnold knew in the '70s that those who spout excuses and cite "studies" are basically just afraid of hard work. One of my favorite pics of Arnold shows him doing insanely heavy squats, barefooted, with no safety supports. Poor guy must not have read all of those scientific studies! "

read that quote and THINK!

 

[bignate73]

enomorphines

what is this word?

i havent seen any studies of said hormone being released postworkout.

 

[110%]

ssalex first of all are you going to grow a certain bodypart if you are doing a light workout, why would he lower intensity just cuz he is working out twice a day, you still need to lift intensely for each bodypart. though even if it was light, you are going to be active, this is not gonna speed up recovery but slow it in my opinion.

 

[MrMuscle]

hmm..well if i for instance do chest in the am, and biceps in the pm. i'll be in the gym half an hour TOPS each time. so intensity wont be a problem.

 

[ballast]

I posted this on another thread but here it is again:

http://www.wsu.edu/~strength/twosess.htm

Two key points to this article, besides the reasearch that supports this idea, are one;you cut your training volume in half and spread it over two workouts, you do not double your workload simply because you are training twice.Second, a three week period was used.You don't train like this all the time.Poliquin recommends two weeks of multiple sessions/day alternated with at least one week of regular training, i.e. one session per day.Again, here is a previously posted link, by Poliquin this time, about the different types of two a day sessions.

http://t-mag.com/html/45cp.html

The major complaint of most people when they hear about this type of training is that it is too intense.That's true of everything when you first try it whether it is supersets, drop sets, maxing out.Intensity is one way to build bigger and stronger muscles, and you have to manipulate intensity in order to achieve a certain level of development and also to avoid overtraining.Going back to the first article, take a look at the population of Haakkinen's study.The test subjects were women.All I hear in the gym and on the boards are a bunch of guys talking about how they can bench 350 or squat 500 but they balk at the idea of splitting their volume in half and training twice in one day.Then you've got these female athletes making documented gains on an idea that is supposedly too intense for a bunch of strong lifters like us?Too intense is starting to sound like a copout to me.

 

[SSAlexSS]

ssalex first of all are you going to grow a certain bodypart if you are doing a light workout, why would he lower intensity just cuz he is working out twice a day, you still need to lift intensely for each bodypart. though even if it was light, you are going to be active, this is not gonna speed up recovery but slow it in my opinion.

You need to periodize you training to avoid overtraining.
2nd) You dont need to lift heavy for bigger muscles. Just adding sets / volume is enough.



Your muscles adapt to more frequnt training by being larger/stronger. SO why not? Volume is an integral part of muscle building size.

 

[SSAlexSS]

I posted this on another thread but here it is again:

http://www.wsu.edu/~strength/twosess.htm

Two key points to this article, besides the reasearch that supports this idea, are one;you cut your training volume in half and spread it over two workouts, you do not double your workload simply because you are training twice.Second, a three week period was used.You don't train like this all the time.Poliquin recommends two weeks of multiple sessions/day alternated with at least one week of regular training, i.e. one session per day.Again, here is a previously posted link, by Poliquin this time, about the different types of two a day sessions.

http://t-mag.com/html/45cp.html

The major complaint of most people when they hear about this type of training is that it is too intense.That's true of everything when you first try it whether it is supersets, drop sets, maxing out.Intensity is one way to build bigger and stronger muscles, and you have to manipulate intensity in order to achieve a certain level of development and also to avoid overtraining.Going back to the first article, take a look at the population of Haakkinen's study.The test subjects were women.All I hear in the gym and on the boards are a bunch of guys talking about how they can bench 350 or squat 500 but they balk at the idea of splitting their volume in half and training twice in one day.Then you've got these female athletes making documented gains on an idea that is supposedly too intense for a bunch of strong lifters like us?Too intense is starting to sound like a copout to me.

Very good post! You people read the word of wisdom here!!

 

[SSAlexSS]

what is this word?

i havent seen any studies of said hormone being released postworkout.

endomorphines I think it is called.
Those things make you HIGH.

the feeling after workout, runners high, etc.

 

[wrestler69]

make one session (mourning) all cardio papa!

 

[b fold the truth]

I would go nuts if you told me that I had to lift twice a day....totally nuts. My body would also just fall apart...way apart.

B True

 

[Sebass67]

Even if you did the same amount of volume?

 

[b fold the truth]

Yes, even at the same volume. You are suggesting that you do chest in the am and maybe back or bi's or tris or shoulders in the pm? Get out of the gym man...go have fun. Your mind must recouperate.

It also depends on how you define volume? Volume per hour, volume per day, volume per week. Heck...I could do every body part in one day...a couple of hours a part...and my weekly volume would not change. My body part volume would not change either...but my body would. I'd get smaller and weaker.

B True

 

[MrMuscle]

hey b fold is that wall moving yet

i see your point, but still. i would be in the gym 30 minutes tops each time around. i guess if you are on the sauce you would get more out of it..im just asking anyway. i am infact going in the oposite direction. im doing 1 musclegroup a day. so we will see how it goes.

 

[SSAlexSS]

I would go nuts if you told me that I had to lift twice a day....totally nuts. My body would also just fall apart...way apart.

B True

lLike arnold said AND DONT DISS ARNOLD

"Where mind goes body will follow".

If you beleive you gonna overtrain, YOU WILL! Gradually work up the volume and be in positive state of mind!

And you will win!

 

[b fold the truth]

Nothing against you, but I greatly dislike Arnold. I do not like people who are not humble, brag, and who cut down others constantly. I know that has nothing to do with this topic...haha..sorry.

As far as overtraining...it is possible. I have been there...way out there.

B True

 

[ballast]

I agree with SSAlexSS.For most people it's probably a mental thing.They hear "Train twice in one day" and they all of a sudden disagree.Most people haven't even given it a fair trial.I liken it to boot camp for army enlistees.The things these guys can do at the end of training are awesome compared to what they could do when they first started training.Alot of it is psychological.Look at the U.S Navy Seals.To finish training they must be able to run 14 miles in boots and fatigues in loose beach sand and swim 5.5 nautical miles!These guys couldn't do that stuff when they arrived at boot camp.Are these guys genetically superior?(Hell no!Have you seen the build of an average Navy SEAL?Nothing outstanding there).Is the government pumping steroids into their soldiers?Of course not.They are men like you and me, but they believe they can accomplish something, and they won't give up until they do.That's all we are talking about here.Fortitude!Yes, two a day training is tough.Yes, you can overtrain from it.But, if done INTELLIGENTLY, it will work.It's been proven!True, it doesn't work for everyone, but, issueing a blanket statement like "You'll overtrain by doing two sessions in one day" is pure B.S.That's ignorance plain and simple.

 

[ballast]

b fold-you said that you would "fall apart" if someone told you you had to train twice in one day, correct?No one is telling you you have to train twice in one day.If you don't want to train, you can quit and go be a potato farmer in Idaho if you want, but no one can tell you how to train.The gist of this post is basically to define the pros and cons of training twice in one day.It's asking the advice of those people that have given this type of training a fair trial.It's great that you have stated your opinion.I've read alot of your suggestions and advice on this board, and 99% of it(in my humble opinion) is right on.But, if you haven't tried this type of training, how can you justify speaking negatively about it?If you have tried it, then I would like to see the routine(exercises,sets,reps,frequency) you used.Like I've said.If done intelligently, there really shouldn't be any reason why this type of training wouldn't work.Of course, some failings of this training could derive from it being coupled with a job that requires alot of physical exertion, not enough nutrition, not enough recuperation,etc.But obviously, if those variables are involved, it wasn't an honest(or intelligent) effort.I'm not trying to implicate you personally, but you seem to have a strong opinion on this and I'd like to know if you have any solid evidence to support you're opinion.Is there some research you've come across to discredit this training format that has worked wonders for many athletes and lifters(not to mention myself, as I'm speaking from personal experience)?If so, I'd like to see it.I'll be the first to admit that I'm not an expert, and anything I can learn about physical development I consider valuable.Once again, nothing personal.You have my utmost respect.

 

[b fold the truth]

Thanks for keeping that reply a positive one without any personal attacks. My typing does not reflect my verbal undertones as well as the meanings behind my words. I am a very vocally expressive person and that can not be displayed through typing at all.

I have trained Westside to my best ability and I did find that the more I trained (sled and extras) the weaker I got. I also had problems with my joints, tendons, and recouperation. I would lift in the mornings and do extras and sled dragging at night when I got home from work. It just tore my body down.

I need rest both mentally and physically. My event training really tears my body down very hard. Just imagine playing an NFL football game with weights on Sunday, after doing deadlifts, then having to lift hard, drag the sled, do cardio, and do extras during the week. I just feel that if you are a large person (260 +) then your body will have problems recouperating from this type of lifting. If you have 400-500lbs on the flat bench and doing inclines, etc... in the morning workout and are trying to do rows with 405, dead 600 or so in the evening...you would be truly amazing if you had any energy left to train.

I believe that if you are doing pullovers, cable pressdowns, flyes, calves, lat pull downs, etc...then you should not have much problems. If your workout surrounds itself around doing bench press, squats, deadlifts, standing overhead presses, etc...then you will. I could not imagine doing deadlifts in the morning and then trying to do standing overhead presses in the evening. If I could effectively lift in the evening, then I did not train hard enough in the morning.

My opinion

B True

 

[ballast]

b fold-very well spoken.I see what you are saying, and while I still stand by opinion, I understand and respect yours.Thanks for keeping it rational.

 

[Realgains]

It will work if you are on juice and rest a lot...otherwise my advice is to train on a three way split mon-wed-fri.

 

[SSAlexSS]

It will work if you are on juice and rest a lot...otherwise my advice is to train on a three way split mon-wed-fri.

No. a knowledgebale and dedicated bodybuilder SHOULD TRAIN MORE OFTEN.


This dont overdo it train only once per week 1 set per muscle group was invented by fanatic Arthur Jones and mentzer.

It was in ARrthur interest to promite 1 set to failure idea, becasue he was paid.

I mean he really convinced people that 1 set will 'work'. Well it will work as in the sense that more people would use his nautilus equipment at faster rates = more gym people = more money.

Very few people have the dedication to go to the gym 6 days per week and do 15-30 sets per workout. So people look for excuses.

Arthur being a smart capitalist pig realised that and made cash! Becasue he promised better results with less effort.

BULL!

 

[Your_Moms_Kneepads]

days.

and yes i am natural

then this is sure fire way to end up making LESS gains. You need the time to grow.

 

[Your_Moms_Kneepads]

No. a knowledgebale and dedicated bodybuilder SHOULD TRAIN MORE OFTEN.


This dont overdo it train only once per week 1 set per muscle group was invented by fanatic Arthur Jones and mentzer.

It was in ARrthur interest to promite 1 set to failure idea, becasue he was paid.

I mean he really convinced people that 1 set will 'work'. Well it will work as in the sense that more people would use his nautilus equipment at faster rates = more gym people = more money.

Very few people have the dedication to go to the gym 6 days per week and do 15-30 sets per workout. So people look for excuses.

Arthur being a smart capitalist pig realised that and made cash! Becasue he promised better results with less effort.

BULL!

You are an absolute fucking idiot. 6 days a week and 15-30 sets is pointless. You've overdosed on 1980's Flex and Muscle and Fitness training articles from Vince Taylor and John DeFendis.
Just so you know its been proven that increasing the volume of work continually wont build any more muscle.

 

[Your_Moms_Kneepads]

lLike arnold said AND DONT DISS ARNOLD

"Where mind goes body will follow".

If you beleive you gonna overtrain, YOU WILL! Gradually work up the volume and be in positive state of mind!

!

Are you off of your medications? All, and I mean all of your posts seem to be complete,contrived piles of shit that have no basis empirically or factually.
Volume is NOT THE FUCKING WAY THE BODY ADAPTS BY BUILDING MORE MUSCLE. Now go away an die or something and stop polluting this board with utter horseshit!

 

[Your_Moms_Kneepads]

"Where mind goes body will follow".

I supppose yours is right up your ass...

 

[SSAlexSS]

Are you off of your medications? All, and I mean all of your posts seem to be complete,contrived piles of shit that have no basis empirically or factually.
Volume is NOT THE FUCKING WAY THE BODY ADAPTS BY BUILDING MORE MUSCLE. Now go away an die or something and stop polluting this board with utter horseshit!

Dude you can judge a person minds by the criticise that comes of his mouth.


For size it IS VOLUME. Stop being body for lifer or some other every joes lifter! Do the research, ask neuro biologists.
MUSCLES GROW FROM WORK THEY DO! Not how much you strained from your first and only set! You need tension! One set doesnt give you enough tension!


No empirical knowledge? Everyone successful lifter does volume to be better!

99% of all pros use volume approach, and as you see - it works!

Sprinters who have big legs, they dont just do one sprint, the do many! OFTEN! and you cant argue with their progress!


3 sets is better than 1. It is been proven everywhere where HIT jedies havent distorted the truth yet.

 

[SSAlexSS]

then this is sure fire way to end up making LESS gains. You need the time to grow.

The maxim that you have no business coming to a gym before you are fully recovered is flawed and not based on anything.


I dont know, but I do my best gains on high volume! ANd I want people to know what really works. I care about peoples progress and it saddens me when they waste their youth following some
weak routine that is only designed for your average joe, a guy who just ISNT interested in getting big.

No. most of these passive routines are designed for Joe public who wants to spend as much time on his cozy sofa as possible. To make sure that he doesnt feel bad and BUYS your training book/equipment yoiu need to CONVINCE him with gibberish that the method works and put down any hard (and real) way of training down.

Its easy to disporve that volume method doesnt work. IT IS VERY HARD TRAINING and most people just arent ready for it, so its easy that way to make them quit it.

People WANT to beleive that you could build muscle in 3 easy painless workouts per week.

too bad world doesnt work that way.

 

[Your_Moms_Kneepads]

99% of all pros use volume approach, and as you see - it works!

Sprinters who have big legs, they dont just do one sprint, the do many! OFTEN! and you cant argue with their progress!


3 sets is better than 1. It is been proven everywhere where HIT jedies havent distorted the truth yet.

99% of what? LIke you keep tabs? LIke you know them? 3 sets is better than one? If you did 9 reps to failure.Racked the weight and did 3 more, and re-racked and did 2 more, all with an slow negative phase you have fucking intensity. Why do 15 sets for a body part? Because its counterproductive.
DO yourself a favor and bury the sprinter argument to.
Also I never said shit about HIT for the record.

 

[SSAlexSS]

99% of what? LIke you keep tabs? LIke you know them? 3 sets is better than one? If you did 9 reps to failure.Racked the weight and did 3 more, and re-racked and did 2 more, all with an slow negative phase you have fucking intensity. Why do 15 sets for a body part? Because its counterproductive.
DO yourself a favor and bury the sprinter argument to.
Also I never said shit about HIT for the record.

When you do sets you send your body a signal to build more muscle. The bigger your muscle are the more sets you have to do to fully deplete it and grow as much of it as possible. 5 sets could be enough for biceps (small muscle). FOr legs you would need to do much more sets since you have much more fibers to exhaust! Also as your muscles become bigger and bigger, they require more and more stimulus to grow. Thus more sets.

1-5 sets may be enough for beginners biceps to grow. 5 sets for advanced trainees biceps would be barely enough to maintain them unless his biceps are doing most of his rowing, chinning, and pulling work.


That is logical. HIT and sissy arguments are not logical!