Please Help - Frustrated - Lack of Gains

[Complete Muscle]

I also get sore... I mean SORE! There's debate on what actually causes the DOMS. I've heard one theory that it comes from the connective tissues not even the muscles. Bottom line - we don't really know. I believe the pain is there for a reason, just not sure exactly what it means. Well I have dealt with this extreme DOMS by decreasing my volume considerably. The funny thing is not only is the pain more manageable, but I'm growin!

I have a couple other questions NateDogg: when bulking do not you gain any weight? If not you need more cals - simple as that. And are you progressing? (adding weight and/or reps to the bar every week.) If so, adding strength = adding size eventually. If not there are different approaches to the dreaded plateau: forced reps, negatives, or my personal favorite fractional increments (adding one pound to the bar every week). Imaginine adding 20 pounds to your bench in 5 months?!! I'm no expert, but maybe my .02 might help a little...

 

[NateDogg]

I have a couple other questions NateDogg: when bulking do not you gain any weight? If not you need more cals - simple as that. And are you progressing? (adding weight and/or reps to the bar every week.) If so, adding strength = adding size eventually. If not there are different approaches to the dreaded plateau: forced reps, negatives, or my personal favorite fractional increments (adding one pound to the bar every week). Imaginine adding 20 pounds to your bench in 5 months?!! I'm no expert, but maybe my .02 might help a little...

I am not progressing how I would like to. I did just start the split above, and I am having a good experience with that so far. How does that split compare to the volume you cut down from in irder to make gains? This is also my first real attempt at bulking, and I have put on a couple lbs. What mainly bothers me is why, even after two years or so of pretty solid lifting, do I still get so EXTREMELY sore? It sound like you had the same experience? Can you post a split that has worked for you?

Thanks,

Nate

 

[needsize]

Nate, you are not growing because you are using only 1 out of 3 strenght training methods. You use the repetition method but you need the dyamic effort method and the maximal effort method. i bet that you will grow quickly by converting from thaty bullshit 5 x 5 bodybuilding routines to the westdide powerlifting routine. check out www.elitefts.com and go to articles and check out peridization part 2 by Dave tate which is also on www.testosterone.net

Your diet is fine, but your training routine is bullshit, You havent gained at all lately, what do you have to lose in converting to powerlifting? Also there are plenty of good people on the PL forum also that can help. I increased by bench by nearly 100 pounds in less than a year. Also my chest, delts and tris have also grown a lot too...JOIN US!!!

I freely admit that I don't know a whole lot about westside training, but I do know that the 5x5 routine, when done correctly, is an awesome program and I and the others I train get results from it every time.

 

[Enock]

I tried the 5x5 for calves about 4 days ago and bis about 2 days ago. SORE AS FUCK AWSOME. Those two muscle groups NEVER get sore and that did the trick. OF course soreness isn't any indication of growth but it sure feels good to actually feel like I trained those muscles the next day for once.

 

[Complete Muscle]

OK - Here goes. About a year ago, I was doing a traditional split routine. Although I made progress (since I was pretty new to lifting) I was REALLY SORE! Sometimes DOMS didn't delay much at all... I was sore immediately and I just kept getting sorer and sorer. And my energy level just dropped off about 6 or 7pm on work out days (I lift in the mornings). Then I started learning about HIT (High Intensity Training) and decided to give it a try. Here's how my training has evolved over the last year:

Routine 1. Basic HIT - General warm-up then 1 set to failure, whole body routine, mostly compound moves, once every 3-4 days:

Squat/Leg Press
Stiff Leg Deadlift
Bench Press
B.O./Cable Rows
Weighted Dips
Weighted Pull Ups
Shoulder Press
Standing Curls
Weighted Sit-Ups
Weighted Leg Raises

Comments: The whole routine was about 45 minutes. Soreness much more tolerable. Apparently recovery was better cuz I could repeat the whole routine in 3 or 4 days. I made good progress for 3+ months. I noticed after a while certain muscle groups recovered faster, so I began adding an extra set here and there (shoulders, biceps and legs). Pretty soon I had to split my routine cuz my it grew to 1 hr 15 minutes...



Routine 2. Modified 2-day split HIT routine - General warm-up, 2 working sets most exercises:

Day 1. (Upper Body)
Shoulder Press - 3 sets 8-10 reps
Pull Ups - 2 sets 8-10 reps
Bench Press/Dips - 2 sets 8-10 reps
B.O./Cable Rows - 2 sets 8-10 reps
Curls - 2 sets 8-10 reps

Day 2. Rest

Day 3. (Lower/Mid Body)
Leg Press/Squat - 3 sets 12-15 reps
Leg Curls - 2 sets 12-15 reps
Weighted Sit-Ups - 2 sets 8-10 reps
Weighted Leg Raises - 2 sets 8-10 reps
Weighted Side Bends - 2 sets 8-10 reps
Back Extensions - 2 sets 12-15 reps

Day 4. Rest

Day 5. Repeat Day 1, etc.

Comments: Again good progress, but after a couple months I started adding an extra set here and there on faster recovering muscle groups and pretty soon my routine was over an hour again. So enter split #3...



Routine #3. Modified HIT 4-day split routine. General warm-up, followed by:

Day 1. (Chest/Shoulders/Tris)
Shoulder Press - 3 sets 8 reps
Weighted Dips - 3 sets 8 reps

Day 2. (Midsection)
Weighted Leg Lifts - 3 sets 8 reps
Weighted Sit-Ups - 3 sets 8 reps
Weighted Side Bends - 2 sets 8-10 reps
Back Extensions - 2 sets 12-15 reps

Day 3. (Back/Bis)
Weighted Pull-Ups - 3 sets 8 reps
B.O. Rows - 3 sets 8 reps
Curls - 2 sets 8 reps

Day 4. (Legs)
Leg Press/Squat - 4 sets 15 reps
Leg Curl - 3 sets 12 reps
Calf Raises - 2 sets 15 reps

Day 5. Repeat Day 1, etc. BUT I take every Sunday off no matter what, and I take an extra rest day every so often if I need it.

Comments: Working well so far. I'm adding small increments (1.25 lbs) to the bar every session or two. Also with my current split I have more flexability with adding more sets on faster recovering muscle groups and still keep each session around 45 minutes.

I track my diet pretty closely and am at about 300-500 cals above maintenance at around 25/50/50 ratio (% of protein to carbs to fat). I am currently supplementing with 1-test/4-AD/Liver/Creatine/ALA at the moment so my recovery is real fast and DOMS is half of what it was w/o supps. It will be interesting to see how it goes after my "cycle" is over. I'm sure I'll be dropping some of those extra sets...

 

[needsize]

I tried the 5x5 for calves about 4 days ago and bis about 2 days ago. SORE AS FUCK AWSOME. Those two muscle groups NEVER get sore and that did the trick. OF course soreness isn't any indication of growth but it sure feels good to actually feel like I trained those muscles the next day for once.

I've never actually tried the 5x5 on calves, as I've always assumed that they need higher reps, but it could be worth a try. A major piece to using 5x5 for growth is the higher reps sets 8-10, that you do after the 5x5, that way you are stimulating both fast and slow twitch muscle fibres.

 

[CytoMel]

I freely admit that I don't know a whole lot about westside training, but I do know that the 5x5 routine, when done correctly, is an awesome program and I and the others I train get results from it every time.

The 5x5 program isnt inherently bad needsize but its obviously not working for natedogg because he has been training for 2 years and has little to show for it. It could be because nate needs to train with 1 rep max weights and take up powerlifting ideas. I dont know about the rest of you, but if I was doing 5x5 for 2 years and I didnt have anything to show for it, I would ditch it for a new system. Also there is a good quote on www.elitefts.com about sorness...something like, I could hit you with a baseball bat a bunch of times and you would be sore the next day, but you wouldnt grow.

 

[needsize]

CytoMel, I can agree with that, I usually follow a training program for 8-10 weeks before changing it with another approach, so if he has been doing the saem routine for that long, then that would explain a lot. 5x5 works great when cycled with other training ideas.

 

[jbw55]

Hello All,

Little background. I am 5'10" ~175-180 lbs bf pretty low, but little high for me because I am trying to bulk. I guess around 10-12%. Now, I have been lifting on a serious level for more than 2 years, with minimal gains. My major question is this: I get sore, VERY SORE or not so sore every time I lift, any body part. If I go balls out I get sore and sometimes stay that way for 4-5 days. If I take it easier (not often) I still get a little sore, maybe lasts for a day or two. Why do I get so sore and have it stay with me for so long eventhough I have been lifting with high intensity for quite a while? Here is my current split:

SUN - squat 5X5
Leg X - 3X10-12
Hack squat calves - 2X15-20
Leg Curls (if hams are not sore) - 3X10-12

MON - rest

TUES - Flat bench DB press - 5X5
Hammer Strength lying bench press - 5X5
Flat DB flye - 3X10-12
DB overhead press - 5X5
cable lat raise - 3X10-12

WED - rest

THURS - Conventional Deadlifts - 5X5
Hammer Stregth iso-row - 5X5
Close Grip pull-down - 5X5
reverse flye on pec-dec - 2X15-20

FRI - rest

SAT - close grip press 5X5
DB French press - 2X10-12
standing BB curl - 5X5
incline curl - 2X10-12

Please, everyone, throw out an opinion here. I have battled with gaining for a while now. Also, I do not have a planned out diet per say. However, I kept a diet journal for a week or so. That told me that I was eating about 3,500 calories, 200 grams of protein. I can not seem to remember what the carbs and fat was, but I am, IMO eating PLENTY! I eat a meal that is high in protein and either good fat, or carbs every two to three hours.

ND

This has happened to me in the past too and this is what I had to do. Take a SERIOUS OBJECTIVE view of your workout form and weights. Make sure you are doing your exercises properly and in the BEST form.

when I did this 2 things stood out for me, my back was underdeveloped and (by measuring every 3 months) I realized my upper arms were not growing. Through an objective look at my back routine I realized I was doing many exercises in bad form, I lowered the weight (suck the ego up and do it) and re-learned my excersizes by doing a leighter weight at STRICTER form. For instance, I could bent over row a lot of weight before, but wasn;t getting the contraction at the end (because of the heavy weight), I dropped the wieght and made sure to get full contractions to stress my inner back, and it did wonders. Same things with Curls, I was doing lots of weight in what I thought was good form (and I wasn't swinging the weight), but I dropped the weight used and focused on form and contraction and I have seen a good solid 1/2-3/4 inch improvement on my arms since.

Ask some folks in the gym that know what they are doing (these are ususally the big dudes) and ask for help or advice on form, or hire a PT for a session or two and just walk through your excersizes to assess your form. Once you get your form solid and you know how the exercise should feel when done properly than start to up the weight.

 

[enrage]

hit your hammies more. looks like you neglect them pretty bad