PCT is becoming ridiculous

[KillaBig]

I'll agree that PCT recommendations are getting a little ridiculous. I'll agree with Captain that theres more effective and subtle approaches to selling/rep'n products. Sometimes what happens here is flat out supplement whoring.

Don't get me wrong. Most of these reps are good guys who also have and contribute a wealth of knowledge to this forum. Not only that, many of the 'pushed' products are pretty good and effective. But as Captain said, it could be done differently.

As many of you, I also have Sales experience. First and foremost I try to educate the customer. Then, I'll share some of the options and products out there and what's advantageous about them. At this point, the prospective customer might push for my recommendation. Sure, then I'll give a soft recommendation.

Here at EF, its "This is the only product that will work" or "All of those other products are crap". But mainly with the cycle support and pct products. For some reason it's not done as often with the sarms or research chems. For example, the reps will talk about Osta, S4, Clomid, Aromasin, etc. without pushing a certain brand. Which is good. But you dont see the reps talking about Fadogia and how they need a Fadogia supplement becasue it stimulates LH. No, they'll simply say you have to have HCGenerate because its the only one of it's kind. Well, that's simply not true. There are other supplements out there that have the same key/actives as HCGenerate, Unleashed, Forma Stanzol, DSpark, etc. Theres no reason to worry about people finding out about these other products. I know about other products but I still purchased DSpark and Unleashed recently because it was convenient and I thought the prices were fair. Essentially, it would benefit the forum (especially the newer members) if we discussed important ingredients rather than the brands.

Stevesmi (who by the way is one of EF's MVP's) mentioned the business aspect of this which I fully understand. But this site has shifted in the last few years. Sure, most sites need to sell something or charge a fee to exist and have a quality site. But years ago, many of the boards were primarily sharing information. If anything was being sold, it wasn't that obvious. It seemed that most of the stuff being sold was memberships, newsletter subscriptions, training, anabolic books, etc. There weren't as many supplements being pushed. And it doesn't have to be like this today. There are some boards that sell and rep very little. There are also boards that sell and rep heavily but have competing companies and reps who play nice and simply share the value of there competing or opposing products and the consumer decides.

For the time being, people will continue to post and visit EF (including myself) because EF still has a lot of good information. In spite of the supplement whoring.

Well said and so true.

 

[stevesmi]

^^^again thanks for those kind words.

Big Rick is in the process of hiring some guys to post up some articles "tricks in the gym" "diet ideas" etc etc. I know that I am one of the guys who has been talked to about doing that, i'm ready to do it just waiting to hear when it will start. I have always posted threads like that, even if its just to make people think about things at different angles. the ledhead thread going is a perfect example of that hence why it was stickied, not a single post in there is product pushing..

and I have urged more mods to step up and make logs/threads/post pics etc. I've also asked the staff to get a transformation contest going, but if I don't have any support for it or sponsorship its not gonna happen obviously as we need prizes. in the past mods and staff have stepped up and dipped INTO THEIR OWN POCKETS to hand out prizes. we are talking 50, 100, 150+ in prizes and even more in cash. the last contest we weren't able to get enough sponsors for it and we still dipped into our pockets for prizes and its not like we are rich guys.. we are normal joe's.

anyway good things are on the horizon, when its slow like this the product pushing seems worse than it really is

we've got discounts on products, we've got free supplements for people who are willing to make logs. if you are willing to put in some work and do a log and post up pics you have the opportunity for FREE stuff. my PM box is always open for discounts on products. so its not all about making money.

 

[El Hefe]

I'll agree that PCT recommendations are getting a little ridiculous. I'll agree with Captain that theres more effective and subtle approaches to selling/rep'n products. Sometimes what happens here is flat out supplement whoring.

Don't get me wrong. Most of these reps are good guys who also have and contribute a wealth of knowledge to this forum. Not only that, many of the 'pushed' products are pretty good and effective. But as Captain said, it could be done differently.

As many of you, I also have Sales experience. First and foremost I try to educate the customer. Then, I'll share some of the options and products out there and what's advantageous about them. At this point, the prospective customer might push for my recommendation. Sure, then I'll give a soft recommendation.

Here at EF, its "This is the only product that will work" or "All of those other products are crap". But mainly with the cycle support and pct products. For some reason it's not done as often with the sarms or research chems. For example, the reps will talk about Osta, S4, Clomid, Aromasin, etc. without pushing a certain brand. Which is good. But you dont see the reps talking about Fadogia and how they need a Fadogia supplement becasue it stimulates LH. No, they'll simply say you have to have HCGenerate because its the only one of it's kind. Well, that's simply not true. There are other supplements out there that have the same key/actives as HCGenerate, Unleashed, Forma Stanzol, DSpark, etc. Theres no reason to worry about people finding out about these other products. I know about other products but I still purchased DSpark and Unleashed recently because it was convenient and I thought the prices were fair. Essentially, it would benefit the forum (especially the newer members) if we discussed important ingredients rather than the brands.

Stevesmi (who by the way is one of EF's MVP's) mentioned the business aspect of this which I fully understand. But this site has shifted in the last few years. Sure, most sites need to sell something or charge a fee to exist and have a quality site. But years ago, many of the boards were primarily sharing information. If anything was being sold, it wasn't that obvious. It seemed that most of the stuff being sold was memberships, newsletter subscriptions, training, anabolic books, etc. There weren't as many supplements being pushed. And it doesn't have to be like this today. There are some boards that sell and rep very little. There are also boards that sell and rep heavily but have competing companies and reps who play nice and simply share the value of there competing or opposing products and the consumer decides.

For the time being, people will continue to post and visit EF (including myself) because EF still has a lot of good information. In spite of the supplement whoring.

Good post.

I think all the supplement and brand name talk should be in the Supplement section. I also like your idea of steering things more toward important ingredients rather than brands.

 

[Nelson Montana]

Good post.

I think all the supplement and brand name talk should be in the Supplement section. I also like your idea of steering things more toward important ingredients rather than brands.

I WISH more people would do that!!!

I wrote about the ingredients in UNLEASHED years before the product existed. So it isn;t like I just threw something together and tried to sell it. I've been telling people about the ingredients until finally decided to compile the active ingredients into one compound.

Sure, you can buy them separately, but you'd have to make sure you get the correct quality and in the end...you won't save any money. Same with N2GUARD. Good luck buying all those ingredients.

I also tell people they can buy unflavored protein from protein factory (on which I do not make a dime) and flavor it themselves and get a great tasting protein shake for half the price.


Even with something like Test Stack 17-- it is strictly for people who can't be bothered tracking down all those ingredients and are willing to pay for the convenience of getting them all in one shot.

The more educated the consumer is, the more they'll realize which products are worth it and which should get a pass.

 

[Jack steel]

Sorry guys, PCT back in the day always used to work just fine, now it's HCG, clomid, nolvadex, Forged this, unleashed that, four other supplements and SARMS products? Seriously wtf? It's never been this complicated and I know I'm going to get shit for this but there is a lot of extras being pushed out there.

I agree although some people do like to list their bridge supps with their PCT. I know I do because my pct usually lasts a few months at least and blends. Sarms for instance is listed as PCT a lot when many are using it after their pct. also I think it totally depends on your cycle length. For example, a six month cycle I would prefer to use a pretty hefty pct stack. A 4-6 week cycle I think 2 products can get the job done. JMO.

 

[dylangemelli]

I agree although some people do like to list their bridge supps with their PCT. I know I do because my pct usually lasts a few months at least and blends. Sarms for instance is listed as PCT a lot when many are using it after their pct. also I think it totally depends on your cycle length. For example, a six month cycle I would prefer to use a pretty hefty pct stack. A 4-6 week cycle I think 2 products can get the job done. JMO.

I agree with that... Cycle length and complexity plays a big role in what your pct is going to need to consist of... There are things that are not necessities but that can play a role...

 

[Jack steel]

I agree there is a lot of pushing going on and that it seems like pct has become complicated (for people that haven't been around for the past few years).

But at the same time I think it is good that there are more options these days and without the pushing I wouldn't know anything about them.

I absolutely understand the business end. Without the engine the train doesn't move. Not even with platinum tracks.

People just have to do their research (as with anything) and decide what is right for them.

What impresses me most is the general impression I get (from posts that aren't obvious advertising) is that all these products WORK. How many companies can you say that about? How many companies only push products that work?

This is just my say. And it is why I am staying.

Well said.

 

[TheSVPdeal]

Its gets really tiring having to go through the same thing over and over again... Ostarine in pct is not suppressive at 4 weeks especially run in conjunction with all these other things... So many guys have posted bloodwork showing this... Its absolutely excellent in pct... it helps to keep gains and have a smooth pct... It does not hinder recovery in any way... Do you HAVE TO HAVE IT? NO... Is it very helpful? YES! Keto burn... Do you have to have it? No... controlling cortisol in pct is very important though so its an excellent addition... Im going to leave the serm discussion alone... Do what you will with that... I wouldn't run a pct without it but thats up to you... Forma increases IGF levels which helps to keep gains and aids in recovery... Once again, all have their place and all play a role... They wouldn't be recommended if they didn't do something of benefit... Noone is forcing you to buy anything but pct is the most important part of the cycle so covering everything possible, in my eyes, is extremely important...

I agree.

I like HCG to kickstart. After that, Clomid and Forma. I'll be running SARMS outside of this next cycle.

Easy.

 

[burnthiscorpse]

I dare anyone over 30 let alone over 35 to run a Nolva/clomid pct and get results like the pct in my sig. With bloods to prove it. And let alone after being suppressed for over a year.

No, you don't need 15 things for pct. but you need to come to grips with the fact that ancillaries and pct is going to cost you some coin if you want to get it done right. I would wager 80% of you nolva/clomid guys don't ever get blood work done anyways. So if you are just going off feel that's great but it means nothing.
Now when I speak of my pct in my sig I went a few weeks over because I was shut down for so long. I wont be staying on that long ever again until its really TRT time. But for a normal cycle the same idea of pct would cost probably $160 ish....maybe...I dunno. But how much is your recovery worth. I think $100-175 is reasonable. But that's just me.
f the average cycle is two injectables with an oral kickstart or finish ....as an example, 2-3 vials of long ester test, maybe 2 vials of tren or mast and 200 tabs of var you're looking at $400+ even at very reasonable prices. Then you need to have some AI on hand, caber if your running tren or deca or NPP then your pct. now you are over $600 easy for a 10-12 wk cycle, ancillaries and pct. It is what it is. Guys that bitch about it all and start nickel and diming everything are the ones who cut corners on pct. Also the ones who don't get blood work done.

Bottom line, you need something to make your balls full size. Even if you don't run HCG or HCgenerate on cycle you need to do that pre pct blast while the long esters are clearing. 1 bottle of hcgenerate will do the trick. run it in the two weeks pre pct and for the first two weeks of your actual pct. that should cover you. $60-65 IIRC
You need something to increase free T. Unleashed does what it says it does. How do I know? Blood work. $30
Then something to mediate estrogen, prolactin ect. Post cycle. $30.
Then you need a test booster. I personally have never been as impressed with anything like I was with bridge. $45
If you like DAA you can throw that in for $20

All this is $190-ish before any discounts. If I get my shit from NTBM (which I do) you then add %10 discount which is what...almost $20? Then free shipping. Shit, if you order a bunch of stuff from different places you usually have to tack shipping charges on it which is even more money.

You guys do as you will. But I would bet my perfectly working left nut that if you ran a blast and cruise for a year (which i'm not recommending to non competitors) that your nolva and clomid isn't going to do the trick.
I was at 835 ng/dl before my 13 month blast and cruise. mid pct I was at 750-ish (I would have to look to be 100% accurate but it was mid 700's). Then a month removed from any pct supps and taking absolutely nothing I am now at 837 ng/dl

 

[burnthiscorpse]

and................


not to mention something else that 99% of all hobby AAS users never give a thought to...... thyroid. Using a thyroid support sup on cycle and through PCT also a supplement for your adrenal glands.

AAS is very taxing on the thyroid(especially tren). This can lead to adrenal fatigue which is a fucking bitch to recover from. Most of the time the taxing of the thyroid is not evident until a cycle is over.