Please Scroll Down to See Forums Below Sorry guys, PCT back in the day always used to work just fine, now it's HCG, clomid, nolvadex, Forged this, unleashed that, four other supplements and SARMS products? Seriously wtf? It's never been this complicated and I know I'm going to get shit for this but there is a lot of extras being pushed out there.
PCT is becoming ridiculous
- Thread starter Captain FT
- Start date
It's not complicated at all. Clomid and Nolva were all they had (which was essentially guesswork) and they didn't work very well and had a bunch of sides.
Then it was discovered that raising free Test while recovering was the best way to go. That's what UNLEASHED did so well. It worked. That's why it's been a best seller for all the years it's been around with sales growing all the time.
POST CYCLE was a natural formulation that addressed the other aspects of PCT -- estro control, liver detox and erectile function. That too worked.
BUT THEN...
Dozens of copies and offshoots of thsoe products came out. (None as effective). Of course there are those who have a vested interest in selling drugs and other products. Not to mention all sorts of theories, revaluations and recommendations.
Ask about a good PCT and you'll get a dozen different suggestions that include dozens of products.
Keep it simple. A little HCG to get a jump start. And then the UNLEASHED/POST-CYCLE combo for 6 weeks. Done. There are other things that help in other ways but PCT is pretty straight ahead. Do that and you can't go wrong.
Then it was discovered that raising free Test while recovering was the best way to go. That's what UNLEASHED did so well. It worked. That's why it's been a best seller for all the years it's been around with sales growing all the time.
POST CYCLE was a natural formulation that addressed the other aspects of PCT -- estro control, liver detox and erectile function. That too worked.
BUT THEN...
Dozens of copies and offshoots of thsoe products came out. (None as effective). Of course there are those who have a vested interest in selling drugs and other products. Not to mention all sorts of theories, revaluations and recommendations.
Ask about a good PCT and you'll get a dozen different suggestions that include dozens of products.
Keep it simple. A little HCG to get a jump start. And then the UNLEASHED/POST-CYCLE combo for 6 weeks. Done. There are other things that help in other ways but PCT is pretty straight ahead. Do that and you can't go wrong.
Thanks Nelson as always you're a wealth of knowledge. It's not me who is confused I think some of the recommendations I see for PCT are way overboard. I'm with you, keep it simple. There is a lot of product pushing going on - good products that all work but I feel it's overboard.
Mad Jasper
New member
I like the simple PCT but what do you use if HCG is not available?
I used HCGenerate and loved it.
Mad Jasper
New member
So it is a viable substitute for HCG?
I liked it when I used it and its comparable to HCG so yes a viable substitute.
Mad Jasper
New member
Cool. Got a bottle on the counter.
pct isn't brain surgery.
you want to accomplish several things during pct. among them
1. speed up your HPTA recovery
2. clean out your lipids
3. stay motivated to workout
4. keep your gains while you are suppressed
hcg mimics LH and boosts T levels.. this is a godsend as esters are clearing your system, if you aren't use hcg then you are missing out .. hcgenerate does the same but also helps with cholesterol, its a great idea in the 2nd half of your cycle as a primer for pct.
then in pct you want to definately take advantage of the natty supps we have available.. phyto-serms, T stack RX are the most pricey but also they have the most bang for your buck (see my sig for banners and codes to save money on them).. and then you have test infusion, unleashed, etc which are cheaper for those with a tighter budget. not sure what there is to complain about.. your options are excellent today. .. stack a low dose SERM with it and that will give your LH and total T a temporary boost but you will feel good thanks to the natty supps.
and then you can use SARM's as a bridge to mantain gains as an option. its not brain surgery like i said..
what people fail at is they run a 15 week cycle.. pct for 4 weeks (not even long enough for their ester to clear in the first place!!) and then bitch that their pct failed or jump back on thinking they are recovered .. seen this happen a hundred times. if you run a 15 week cycle you gotta come off for 15 weeks.. time on=time off or you aren't giving your body a chance to recover .. and for petes sake run bloods!! don't go by how you feel, that means nothing
I'm like you Captain, I am very wary of who i listen to when it comes to pct... I believe in listening to those that CYCLE still, not saying those that cruise or are on HRT aren't knowledgeable, but it always helps to talk to someone who cycles on and off who has tried it all and who has figured out some strategies to help others as well.. the bloodwork doesn't lie!! this is why my PM box is always open to those who need pct help.
you want to accomplish several things during pct. among them
1. speed up your HPTA recovery
2. clean out your lipids
3. stay motivated to workout
4. keep your gains while you are suppressed
hcg mimics LH and boosts T levels.. this is a godsend as esters are clearing your system, if you aren't use hcg then you are missing out .. hcgenerate does the same but also helps with cholesterol, its a great idea in the 2nd half of your cycle as a primer for pct.
then in pct you want to definately take advantage of the natty supps we have available.. phyto-serms, T stack RX are the most pricey but also they have the most bang for your buck (see my sig for banners and codes to save money on them).. and then you have test infusion, unleashed, etc which are cheaper for those with a tighter budget. not sure what there is to complain about.. your options are excellent today. .. stack a low dose SERM with it and that will give your LH and total T a temporary boost but you will feel good thanks to the natty supps.
and then you can use SARM's as a bridge to mantain gains as an option. its not brain surgery like i said..
what people fail at is they run a 15 week cycle.. pct for 4 weeks (not even long enough for their ester to clear in the first place!!) and then bitch that their pct failed or jump back on thinking they are recovered .. seen this happen a hundred times. if you run a 15 week cycle you gotta come off for 15 weeks.. time on=time off or you aren't giving your body a chance to recover .. and for petes sake run bloods!! don't go by how you feel, that means nothing
I'm like you Captain, I am very wary of who i listen to when it comes to pct... I believe in listening to those that CYCLE still, not saying those that cruise or are on HRT aren't knowledgeable, but it always helps to talk to someone who cycles on and off who has tried it all and who has figured out some strategies to help others as well.. the bloodwork doesn't lie!! this is why my PM box is always open to those who need pct help.
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This is kind of what I'm getting at you can do 10 weeks of test at 500 and EQ at 600 for roughly $180 and PCT will cost you more for 6 weeks.
Clomid - $50
Unleashed/Post Cycle Combo - $70
Formastanzol - $60
Keto Burn - $40
Ostarine - $50
That's $270 on PCT for a $180 cycle...c'mon man!
Unleashed/Post Cycle Combo - $70
Formastanzol - $60
Keto Burn - $40
Ostarine - $50
That's $270 on PCT for a $180 cycle...c'mon man!
OliverPorschev
New member
You pay for what you get.. If you don't want to spend more on PCT than the actual cycle, don't. IMO recovery is much more important than the actual cycle so if you want a good recovery, pay for it
Hold on a minute.
THIS IS THE PROBLEM
Too many people are saying that too many products do too many things!!!
Keto burn has nothing to do with recovery of the HPTA.
Formastanazol is an anti e that should be used to control estro while on cycle, not afterward.
Ostarine is suppressive and has no place in PCT as far as Im concerned.
Clomid sucks.
There you go -- your PCT now costs $70.
KillaBig
Banned
I hear ya brother!
Good Ol' HCG,Clomid,Nolvadex works for me and maybe a test booster for shits and giggles.
Idobehigh
New member
Agreed I wouldn't add ostarine to pct keto burn is optional and for a Stanzol you add on cycle and carry it onto pct if you have it
Its gets really tiring having to go through the same thing over and over again... Ostarine in pct is not suppressive at 4 weeks especially run in conjunction with all these other things... So many guys have posted bloodwork showing this... Its absolutely excellent in pct... it helps to keep gains and have a smooth pct... It does not hinder recovery in any way... Do you HAVE TO HAVE IT? NO... Is it very helpful? YES! Keto burn... Do you have to have it? No... controlling cortisol in pct is very important though so its an excellent addition... Im going to leave the serm discussion alone... Do what you will with that... I wouldn't run a pct without it but thats up to you... Forma increases IGF levels which helps to keep gains and aids in recovery... Once again, all have their place and all play a role... They wouldn't be recommended if they didn't do something of benefit... Noone is forcing you to buy anything but pct is the most important part of the cycle so covering everything possible, in my eyes, is extremely important...
MattJS
New member
Personally I prefer to be taking as few supplements and drugs as possible at any one time that still gives a good result... If I was cycling I'd probably be going with Nelson's recommendation... As for cost effectiveness I can make a $50 bottle of test last 15 weeks at a cruise dose... I can appreciate some of the pimped PCT's shown on here and understand why people want to cover all the bases, but you need deep pockets for that and a reason to come off, I have neither...
What Nelson is telling me sounds more like it and what I believe is all you need.
Thank you for clearing up Nelson.
AnthonyMarco
New member
I agree there is a lot of pushing going on and that it seems like pct has become complicated (for people that haven't been around for the past few years).
But at the same time I think it is good that there are more options these days and without the pushing I wouldn't know anything about them.
I absolutely understand the business end. Without the engine the train doesn't move. Not even with platinum tracks.
People just have to do their research (as with anything) and decide what is right for them.
What impresses me most is the general impression I get (from posts that aren't obvious advertising) is that all these products WORK. How many companies can you say that about? How many companies only push products that work?
This is just my say. And it is why I am staying.
But at the same time I think it is good that there are more options these days and without the pushing I wouldn't know anything about them.
I absolutely understand the business end. Without the engine the train doesn't move. Not even with platinum tracks.
People just have to do their research (as with anything) and decide what is right for them.
What impresses me most is the general impression I get (from posts that aren't obvious advertising) is that all these products WORK. How many companies can you say that about? How many companies only push products that work?
This is just my say. And it is why I am staying.
I'll agree with this also, I'm sure they work, I haven't taken many of them, but I've seen much of the feedback. I think some of the PCT "protocols" need to be presented as "Must Haves", "Nice to Have", and "Pie in the Sky" type protocols.
This is what I present to management when introducing new infrastructure changes to our IT environment, I approach it the same way really.
i haven't even seen you post in the AAS section ever so not sure how suddenly you are complaining about the way things are. i laid out a pct earlier in the thread that costs way less than a cycle. 180 for test and EQ? maybe if its underdosed UG shit gear made in the bathtub. any decent cycle is gonna cost you atleast twice that. and funny you pick two of the cheapest compounds to make your point. 10 weeks is short for EQ anyway.. people typically run it atleast 15 weeks. i remember a couple years back i got pharm grade primo the good shit and with test and a kickstart oral it cost me over a grand.
JMO
and if it feels like products are being pushed on here then that is the reps faults for doing a shitty job. we have sponsors and reps that are hired by the sponsors to educate people on products. if they are pushing shit in peoples faces too much like an annoying person knocking on your door every saturday then they need to learn some simple marketing 101. thats on the reps, not the site. every site has sponsors and every site has reps so you aren't gonna change the world
wait a second.. you are telling me that in a capitalist country where you gotta pay your bills that people would dare to make money? shame on them!
i suppose you coming on here for free and using the site is enough to generate ad revenue to pay for the staff, bandwidth, and all that other stuff that goes into a site.
i always laugh on these forums how guys act like such populists and how money is evil, yet then they bitch about people who take government handouts. if everyone just took money from the government this site wouldn't need sponsors, we could apply as bodybuilders and get all our supps, AAS, ancillaries, gym memberships paid by uncle Sam. maybe you are on to something.
yes its true.. sponsors pay the site money to be here. if it wasn't for the sponsors there would be no site. we would all be going to libraries and reading bodybuilding books from the 70's like i used to do in high school to get information before the internets came along. so instead of crying about that people should thank the sponsors.. buy a product every now and then. thank the reps who work for a couple random bottles of supplements, a lot of reps including me dip into our own pockets every month to buy more supps cause a couple bottles and a bag of protein isn't enough.
I think what prompted me to post this was going through my EF App I went through 10 of the most recent "unread" posts in the AAS forum and saw basically the same cut/paste job for what was being recommended as PCT. I don't want to piss anyone off here or step on people toes - I've been here a long time and see this stuff come and go.
You're a good bro, there are a lot of other reps and sponsors that are also good bros. I'm sure it gets tiring trying to answer 50 newbie PCT questions a day (maybe more), but as I also said above I think it could be presented differently - "Must Haves", "Nice to Haves", and "Pie in the Sky" type PCT protocols.
You are also right, i don't post in the AAS section very often. I'm trying to help a little more and offer what knowledge I do have. I had good bro's like GUARDIAN helping me when I first came here and after taking a break from this site I came back and thought I would chime in every now and then over here - there are a lot of people who shouldn't even be running AAS posting questions so the help is certainly needed.
^^^^ thanks for those kind words.
I cannot control what other reps do.. i have told reps to post ONE thread that is visible up top on an individual forum.. instead of posting about the same thing 3 straight threads in a row bumped. but i cannot make someone do what i recommend. having said that its not that bad at all if you look at other sites. certain times of the day someone might come in and give that impression cause they are bumping a bunch of threads but that is google related marketing
it seems like its worse than it really is cause its late summer and everyone is at the beach and shit is slow on here
I cannot control what other reps do.. i have told reps to post ONE thread that is visible up top on an individual forum.. instead of posting about the same thing 3 straight threads in a row bumped. but i cannot make someone do what i recommend. having said that its not that bad at all if you look at other sites. certain times of the day someone might come in and give that impression cause they are bumping a bunch of threads but that is google related marketing
it seems like its worse than it really is cause its late summer and everyone is at the beach and shit is slow on here
I also haven't mentioned any names, I'm not trying to call anyone out and I don't want to be a dick and come off like I'm discrediting him. He seems like a good knowledgable guy and his intentions are to help and I think he does a good job of that as well. As I stated before I just think it could be presented differently, that's all.
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SARMS has its place and can be used to extend a cycle or to begin one for an extra boost. The same can be said about Proviron. It too isn't terribly suppressive. But anything that is even REMOTELY suppressive cannot be considered something to help recovery. It simply does not make any sense.
^^^ i have run proviron but not during pct so i don't have any hard evidence but I don't see how something that is a male hormone/androgenic can not suppress you. i wouldn't run proviron at all during pct or bridge.
but SARM's, not all of them are suppressive, this is easily verified through bloodwork which you can easily see for yourself.. obviously LGD is but thats why its recommended to run lgd like you would AAS and then run pct after.
but SARM's, not all of them are suppressive, this is easily verified through bloodwork which you can easily see for yourself.. obviously LGD is but thats why its recommended to run lgd like you would AAS and then run pct after.
Any exogenous intake of androgenm must suppress. That's basic physiology. though it may not be evident, depending on the dosage and duration. It was once thought Proviron wasn't suppressive because subject could take 25 mgs a day for 2 weeks with no signs of suppression but with extended use , it did.
So again, SARMs or ostarine can be used effectively if used correctly but PCT should be all about getting your natural hormonal system operating as optimally as possible on it's own -- not pushing the envelope to see what you can get away with. It's like eating a piece of cake while on a cutting diet. It won't kill you, but it sure ain't gonna help you.
Actually, it's still a good idea to do a PCT when on HRT. Recovery is more than just having enough testosterone.
KillaBig
Banned
HCG is HCG there is know real substitute for the real thing.
I do not ... but Dylan does.
I'll agree that PCT recommendations are getting a little ridiculous. I'll agree with Captain that theres more effective and subtle approaches to selling/rep'n products. Sometimes what happens here is flat out supplement whoring.
Don't get me wrong. Most of these reps are good guys who also have and contribute a wealth of knowledge to this forum. Not only that, many of the 'pushed' products are pretty good and effective. But as Captain said, it could be done differently.
As many of you, I also have Sales experience. First and foremost I try to educate the customer. Then, I'll share some of the options and products out there and what's advantageous about them. At this point, the prospective customer might push for my recommendation. Sure, then I'll give a soft recommendation.
Here at EF, its "This is the only product that will work" or "All of those other products are crap". But mainly with the cycle support and pct products. For some reason it's not done as often with the sarms or research chems. For example, the reps will talk about Osta, S4, Clomid, Aromasin, etc. without pushing a certain brand. Which is good. But you dont see the reps talking about Fadogia and how they need a Fadogia supplement becasue it stimulates LH. No, they'll simply say you have to have HCGenerate because its the only one of it's kind. Well, that's simply not true. There are other supplements out there that have the same key/actives as HCGenerate, Unleashed, Forma Stanzol, DSpark, etc. Theres no reason to worry about people finding out about these other products. I know about other products but I still purchased DSpark and Unleashed recently because it was convenient and I thought the prices were fair. Essentially, it would benefit the forum (especially the newer members) if we discussed important ingredients rather than the brands.
Stevesmi (who by the way is one of EF's MVP's) mentioned the business aspect of this which I fully understand. But this site has shifted in the last few years. Sure, most sites need to sell something or charge a fee to exist and have a quality site. But years ago, many of the boards were primarily sharing information. If anything was being sold, it wasn't that obvious. It seemed that most of the stuff being sold was memberships, newsletter subscriptions, training, anabolic books, etc. There weren't as many supplements being pushed. And it doesn't have to be like this today. There are some boards that sell and rep very little. There are also boards that sell and rep heavily but have competing companies and reps who play nice and simply share the value of there competing or opposing products and the consumer decides.
For the time being, people will continue to post and visit EF (including myself) because EF still has a lot of good information. In spite of the supplement whoring.
Don't get me wrong. Most of these reps are good guys who also have and contribute a wealth of knowledge to this forum. Not only that, many of the 'pushed' products are pretty good and effective. But as Captain said, it could be done differently.
As many of you, I also have Sales experience. First and foremost I try to educate the customer. Then, I'll share some of the options and products out there and what's advantageous about them. At this point, the prospective customer might push for my recommendation. Sure, then I'll give a soft recommendation.
Here at EF, its "This is the only product that will work" or "All of those other products are crap". But mainly with the cycle support and pct products. For some reason it's not done as often with the sarms or research chems. For example, the reps will talk about Osta, S4, Clomid, Aromasin, etc. without pushing a certain brand. Which is good. But you dont see the reps talking about Fadogia and how they need a Fadogia supplement becasue it stimulates LH. No, they'll simply say you have to have HCGenerate because its the only one of it's kind. Well, that's simply not true. There are other supplements out there that have the same key/actives as HCGenerate, Unleashed, Forma Stanzol, DSpark, etc. Theres no reason to worry about people finding out about these other products. I know about other products but I still purchased DSpark and Unleashed recently because it was convenient and I thought the prices were fair. Essentially, it would benefit the forum (especially the newer members) if we discussed important ingredients rather than the brands.
Stevesmi (who by the way is one of EF's MVP's) mentioned the business aspect of this which I fully understand. But this site has shifted in the last few years. Sure, most sites need to sell something or charge a fee to exist and have a quality site. But years ago, many of the boards were primarily sharing information. If anything was being sold, it wasn't that obvious. It seemed that most of the stuff being sold was memberships, newsletter subscriptions, training, anabolic books, etc. There weren't as many supplements being pushed. And it doesn't have to be like this today. There are some boards that sell and rep very little. There are also boards that sell and rep heavily but have competing companies and reps who play nice and simply share the value of there competing or opposing products and the consumer decides.
For the time being, people will continue to post and visit EF (including myself) because EF still has a lot of good information. In spite of the supplement whoring.
KillaBig
Banned
Well said and so true.
^^^again thanks for those kind words.
Big Rick is in the process of hiring some guys to post up some articles "tricks in the gym" "diet ideas" etc etc. I know that I am one of the guys who has been talked to about doing that, i'm ready to do it just waiting to hear when it will start. I have always posted threads like that, even if its just to make people think about things at different angles. the ledhead thread going is a perfect example of that hence why it was stickied, not a single post in there is product pushing..
and I have urged more mods to step up and make logs/threads/post pics etc. I've also asked the staff to get a transformation contest going, but if I don't have any support for it or sponsorship its not gonna happen obviously as we need prizes. in the past mods and staff have stepped up and dipped INTO THEIR OWN POCKETS to hand out prizes. we are talking 50, 100, 150+ in prizes and even more in cash. the last contest we weren't able to get enough sponsors for it and we still dipped into our pockets for prizes and its not like we are rich guys.. we are normal joe's.
anyway good things are on the horizon, when its slow like this the product pushing seems worse than it really is
we've got discounts on products, we've got free supplements for people who are willing to make logs. if you are willing to put in some work and do a log and post up pics you have the opportunity for FREE stuff. my PM box is always open for discounts on products. so its not all about making money.
Big Rick is in the process of hiring some guys to post up some articles "tricks in the gym" "diet ideas" etc etc. I know that I am one of the guys who has been talked to about doing that, i'm ready to do it just waiting to hear when it will start. I have always posted threads like that, even if its just to make people think about things at different angles. the ledhead thread going is a perfect example of that hence why it was stickied, not a single post in there is product pushing..
and I have urged more mods to step up and make logs/threads/post pics etc. I've also asked the staff to get a transformation contest going, but if I don't have any support for it or sponsorship its not gonna happen obviously as we need prizes. in the past mods and staff have stepped up and dipped INTO THEIR OWN POCKETS to hand out prizes. we are talking 50, 100, 150+ in prizes and even more in cash. the last contest we weren't able to get enough sponsors for it and we still dipped into our pockets for prizes and its not like we are rich guys.. we are normal joe's.
anyway good things are on the horizon, when its slow like this the product pushing seems worse than it really is
we've got discounts on products, we've got free supplements for people who are willing to make logs. if you are willing to put in some work and do a log and post up pics you have the opportunity for FREE stuff. my PM box is always open for discounts on products. so its not all about making money.
El Hefe
New member
Good post.
I think all the supplement and brand name talk should be in the Supplement section. I also like your idea of steering things more toward important ingredients rather than brands.
I WISH more people would do that!!!
I wrote about the ingredients in UNLEASHED years before the product existed. So it isn;t like I just threw something together and tried to sell it. I've been telling people about the ingredients until finally decided to compile the active ingredients into one compound.
Sure, you can buy them separately, but you'd have to make sure you get the correct quality and in the end...you won't save any money. Same with N2GUARD. Good luck buying all those ingredients.
I also tell people they can buy unflavored protein from protein factory (on which I do not make a dime) and flavor it themselves and get a great tasting protein shake for half the price.
Even with something like Test Stack 17-- it is strictly for people who can't be bothered tracking down all those ingredients and are willing to pay for the convenience of getting them all in one shot.
The more educated the consumer is, the more they'll realize which products are worth it and which should get a pass.
I agree although some people do like to list their bridge supps with their PCT. I know I do because my pct usually lasts a few months at least and blends. Sarms for instance is listed as PCT a lot when many are using it after their pct. also I think it totally depends on your cycle length. For example, a six month cycle I would prefer to use a pretty hefty pct stack. A 4-6 week cycle I think 2 products can get the job done. JMO.
I agree with that... Cycle length and complexity plays a big role in what your pct is going to need to consist of... There are things that are not necessities but that can play a role...
Well said.
TheSVPdeal
New member
I agree.
I like HCG to kickstart. After that, Clomid and Forma. I'll be running SARMS outside of this next cycle.
Easy.
I dare anyone over 30 let alone over 35 to run a Nolva/clomid pct and get results like the pct in my sig. With bloods to prove it. And let alone after being suppressed for over a year.
No, you don't need 15 things for pct. but you need to come to grips with the fact that ancillaries and pct is going to cost you some coin if you want to get it done right. I would wager 80% of you nolva/clomid guys don't ever get blood work done anyways. So if you are just going off feel that's great but it means nothing.
Now when I speak of my pct in my sig I went a few weeks over because I was shut down for so long. I wont be staying on that long ever again until its really TRT time. But for a normal cycle the same idea of pct would cost probably $160 ish....maybe...I dunno. But how much is your recovery worth. I think $100-175 is reasonable. But that's just me.
f the average cycle is two injectables with an oral kickstart or finish ....as an example, 2-3 vials of long ester test, maybe 2 vials of tren or mast and 200 tabs of var you're looking at $400+ even at very reasonable prices. Then you need to have some AI on hand, caber if your running tren or deca or NPP then your pct. now you are over $600 easy for a 10-12 wk cycle, ancillaries and pct. It is what it is. Guys that bitch about it all and start nickel and diming everything are the ones who cut corners on pct. Also the ones who don't get blood work done.
Bottom line, you need something to make your balls full size. Even if you don't run HCG or HCgenerate on cycle you need to do that pre pct blast while the long esters are clearing. 1 bottle of hcgenerate will do the trick. run it in the two weeks pre pct and for the first two weeks of your actual pct. that should cover you. $60-65 IIRC
You need something to increase free T. Unleashed does what it says it does. How do I know? Blood work. $30
Then something to mediate estrogen, prolactin ect. Post cycle. $30.
Then you need a test booster. I personally have never been as impressed with anything like I was with bridge. $45
If you like DAA you can throw that in for $20
All this is $190-ish before any discounts. If I get my shit from NTBM (which I do) you then add %10 discount which is what...almost $20? Then free shipping. Shit, if you order a bunch of stuff from different places you usually have to tack shipping charges on it which is even more money.
You guys do as you will. But I would bet my perfectly working left nut that if you ran a blast and cruise for a year (which i'm not recommending to non competitors) that your nolva and clomid isn't going to do the trick.
I was at 835 ng/dl before my 13 month blast and cruise. mid pct I was at 750-ish (I would have to look to be 100% accurate but it was mid 700's). Then a month removed from any pct supps and taking absolutely nothing I am now at 837 ng/dl
No, you don't need 15 things for pct. but you need to come to grips with the fact that ancillaries and pct is going to cost you some coin if you want to get it done right. I would wager 80% of you nolva/clomid guys don't ever get blood work done anyways. So if you are just going off feel that's great but it means nothing.
Now when I speak of my pct in my sig I went a few weeks over because I was shut down for so long. I wont be staying on that long ever again until its really TRT time. But for a normal cycle the same idea of pct would cost probably $160 ish....maybe...I dunno. But how much is your recovery worth. I think $100-175 is reasonable. But that's just me.
f the average cycle is two injectables with an oral kickstart or finish ....as an example, 2-3 vials of long ester test, maybe 2 vials of tren or mast and 200 tabs of var you're looking at $400+ even at very reasonable prices. Then you need to have some AI on hand, caber if your running tren or deca or NPP then your pct. now you are over $600 easy for a 10-12 wk cycle, ancillaries and pct. It is what it is. Guys that bitch about it all and start nickel and diming everything are the ones who cut corners on pct. Also the ones who don't get blood work done.
Bottom line, you need something to make your balls full size. Even if you don't run HCG or HCgenerate on cycle you need to do that pre pct blast while the long esters are clearing. 1 bottle of hcgenerate will do the trick. run it in the two weeks pre pct and for the first two weeks of your actual pct. that should cover you. $60-65 IIRC
You need something to increase free T. Unleashed does what it says it does. How do I know? Blood work. $30
Then something to mediate estrogen, prolactin ect. Post cycle. $30.
Then you need a test booster. I personally have never been as impressed with anything like I was with bridge. $45
If you like DAA you can throw that in for $20
All this is $190-ish before any discounts. If I get my shit from NTBM (which I do) you then add %10 discount which is what...almost $20? Then free shipping. Shit, if you order a bunch of stuff from different places you usually have to tack shipping charges on it which is even more money.
You guys do as you will. But I would bet my perfectly working left nut that if you ran a blast and cruise for a year (which i'm not recommending to non competitors) that your nolva and clomid isn't going to do the trick.
I was at 835 ng/dl before my 13 month blast and cruise. mid pct I was at 750-ish (I would have to look to be 100% accurate but it was mid 700's). Then a month removed from any pct supps and taking absolutely nothing I am now at 837 ng/dl
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and................
not to mention something else that 99% of all hobby AAS users never give a thought to...... thyroid. Using a thyroid support sup on cycle and through PCT also a supplement for your adrenal glands.
AAS is very taxing on the thyroid(especially tren). This can lead to adrenal fatigue which is a fucking bitch to recover from. Most of the time the taxing of the thyroid is not evident until a cycle is over.
not to mention something else that 99% of all hobby AAS users never give a thought to...... thyroid. Using a thyroid support sup on cycle and through PCT also a supplement for your adrenal glands.
AAS is very taxing on the thyroid(especially tren). This can lead to adrenal fatigue which is a fucking bitch to recover from. Most of the time the taxing of the thyroid is not evident until a cycle is over.
yeah that thread is gives hope to anyone who goes on for a long time. good job with it
Yes I hope it does. but pertaining to this thread mostly I was trying to get the point across that if that stuff got me back the way it did....from where I was at.... then any 8-12 week cycle should be a thousand times easier to recover from if you do it right.
I hear what you mean, but I prefer the attitude of "you can't do too much for PCT" over the attitude of "I don't want to do too much for PCT". Yes it gets expensive and yes some people go overboard, but with a solid PCT you're prepared for everything and you can know for certain that you're recovering to your fullest. Not to mention that it feels really good to just know that you're nice and healthy with balanced hormone levels afterwards.
To me its still pretty simple, I still use the same basic PCT depending on the cycle - I've found what I like and stuck with it.
My Staples:
Always Sarmssearch OSTA
Always Unleashed
Always Forma Stanzol
And then depending on the cycle:
Sometimes Forged Post Cycle
Sometimes Clomid
Sometimes HCG
I think once you wade through the gigantic pile of shit that is the commercial supplement market and find what actually works for you it becomes pretty simple, its just a matter of choice now rather than necessity - a nice development in my opinion.
hey iron bros I just wanted to say the only way to know if your PCT worked its by doing blood work, its a must.. PTC needs to get more aggressive as should your cycles, or else everyone would be on 500mg of test e for 12 wks every cycle.. I do believe research & experimentation with supplements is a must. but the honest truth is that i don't believe in a lot of them.(im not talking about the ones here but more of the bullsh*t supplements in general) that's why unbiased sharing of information is what's valued here at EF. always do your homework and use your head if your d*ick is limp or you are losing 20lbs after cycle.. you need to start adding shit or upping your doses at PCT..it is as important as your cycle..
Extremely good post.
What the fuck good does it do you to spend $500, 700, $1200 on a killer cycle, train with maximum intensity, get all the sleep you need, spend thousands in food, eat, sleep, breath and shit bodybuilding..... then lose most of it. I don't give a fucking rats ass how you say you feel....I wanna see blood work. The percentage of people that actually get bloods are ridiculously low. People feel ok after cycle so they speculate they are G2G then keep cycling. Then after a while they are fucked up in some way or another. Because they don't get bloods to confirm whether their pct really did what it was supposed to do.
So in an effort to not seem like there is a bunch of product pushing going on. Let see what some of you guys think for PCT being broken down in three categories based on effectiveness vs cost, the same way I do my IT infrastructure breakdowns
PCT categories are:
"Must Haves" -cost and product break down
"Nice to have"- cost and product break down
"Pie in the sky" - cost and product break down
I think this will help in the decision making process just as it does management with how to proceed with the cost of doing business. It's essentially the same as upgrading you infrastructure (ie your upgrading your body by doing steroids) so here is the cost of doing that business.
PCT categories are:
"Must Haves" -cost and product break down
"Nice to have"- cost and product break down
"Pie in the sky" - cost and product break down
I think this will help in the decision making process just as it does management with how to proceed with the cost of doing business. It's essentially the same as upgrading you infrastructure (ie your upgrading your body by doing steroids) so here is the cost of doing that business.
U
UA_Iron
Guest
"In the olden days we used to not even have PCT and we recovered fine"
KillaBig
Banned
Thank you.
jeremyng25
New member
I was kind of going over the whole issue of ostarine in pct and I really do feel that it has its place. The truth is I've seen blood work that shows its suppressive but where free T wasn't effected at all. I've also seen bloodwork where testosterone took a bit of a dive. I've been to the GTX website because that's the company that ran clinical trials on ostarine. The main purposes of developing ostarine was to help cancer patients keep muscle mass while undergoing extreme cancer treatment like radiation and chemotherapy. I believe the successfully used doses are much less than we are using. I believe at the right mg ostarine can and will preserve muscle when in a state where muscle would essentially waste. With this in mind I dont think one would need over 10 mg osta to achieve this task. 10 mg should be hardly suppressive with a proper pct.
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Who's we? Because besides you, I've never known that to be the case. You may THINK you recovered, but no way was your T level the same as it was before you started.
you would recover fine .... eventually.... (atleast this is wishful thinking) i know guys who juiced young who can't get their T levels over 300 naturally in their 20's.. but that is another debate for another day
however a pct will speed up recovery, cleanse your lipids, make you feel good.. why you wouldn't run one makes no sense. i don't think guys back then ever ran blood work anyway.. and i would say 100% of the hardcore guys were on HRT .. i would bet my left nut Arnold has been on HRT for years.. all the old timer guru's on youtube even admit to being on HRT like Ric Drasin for example, and i bet they were on since their 40's.. so for them to give any type of advice on pct or to listen to them for tips on cycling is a laugh unless you plan on being on HRT at a young age too.
if you abuse steroids and don't pct correctly you will end up on HRT at a younger age than someone who doesn't.. this is common sense
just stay on if you don't want to run a pct. its that simple.. however one day if you decide you want to take a break from the life then its not gonna be a fun experience.. you damn well better make sure you are 100% dedicated if you stay on. for everyone else cycle on, cycle off.. run bloodwork and be patient and smart. and you will cycle for years to come
or you can be like the 'old timers' and just be ignorant about running bloodwork and don't want to know .. an X of mine used to always tell me "ignorance is bliss" .. and she was a genius and its so true. once guys do actually run bloodwork and see on paper what is going on in their body they usually flip out.. i get these PM's all the time from guys.. ALL THE TIME. so maybe it is better to just be 'doi doi doi' about things and don't even look
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if you run bloodwork while on a SERM its gonna be manipulated.. you must come off everything for a solid 2-3 weeks and then run bloodwork to truley know if you are recovered.
hcg mimics LH.. so if you run it and then run bloodwork of course your T levels are gonna be elevated. but guess what happens when you stop taking it and its out of your system?
i would like to see the persons stats first off, history etc..
then their prior bloods ideally would be very useful.. i mean if their LH is at 0 before starting a 'cycle' then how can they expect a smooth recovery when they aren't recovered to begin with ?
then i would want to know what they are running, how long.. dosages, etc.. this makes a difference.
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