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That's a valid point to any theory of training. Beginners will make huge gains on any program.sk* said:
Although I don't condone his wording, I'm gonna throw in with latimus on this one. Provided you don't have to mess with your training frequency, more volume does equal more gains.
When you lift, weight gets transferred to the muscles, stuff happens, and then growth is caused. The more you can do this during one bout the more growth will be caused. But training less frequently in order handle more volume is counterproductive if your goal is muscle growth.
This doesn't have to be incompatible with DC training! DC would work just as well with 2-3 lower intensity sets as long as you could keep the strength gains going. Just acknowledge that the one intense set is ONE WAY TO DO IT, and although it may work very well it's not the only way.
When you lift, weight gets transferred to the muscles, stuff happens, and then growth is caused. The more you can do this during one bout the more growth will be caused. But training less frequently in order handle more volume is counterproductive if your goal is muscle growth.
This doesn't have to be incompatible with DC training! DC would work just as well with 2-3 lower intensity sets as long as you could keep the strength gains going. Just acknowledge that the one intense set is ONE WAY TO DO IT, and although it may work very well it's not the only way.
pwr_machine
New member
needsize said:
you calling me close minded is one of the funniest, and most ignorant things I've read in this forum, and that says a lot. Did you miss the part where I said I've tried every training approach that I could find any info on over the years, so I know what works and doesnt work for me. You use DC as an example of how much can be gained, how much have you gained over your many years of training bro, especially with the DC approach, and lets see the pics to prove it!
I have no problem with a good debate, but thats not what I see on these threads. I see a bunch of back patting about how you guys without a doubt, are on the most effective routine ever, and if the rest of us want to grow as fast as you then we should jump on the bandwagon. And if anyone comes on one of the threads and has the nerve to disagree, they get flamed.
There are all kinds of effective training approaches out there, Ive used many of them with great success. But to make a blanket statement that one is the MOST effective, and nothing else will make you grow that fast, with nothing but anecdotal evidence to prove it, thats crap!!
I have no problem with a good debate, but thats not what I see on these threads. I see a bunch of back patting about how you guys without a doubt, are on the most effective routine ever, and if the rest of us want to grow as fast as you then we should jump on the bandwagon. And if anyone comes on one of the threads and has the nerve to disagree, they get flamed.
There are all kinds of effective training approaches out there, Ive used many of them with great success. But to make a blanket statement that one is the MOST effective, and nothing else will make you grow that fast, with nothing but anecdotal evidence to prove it, thats crap!!
pwr_machine said:
Yes, that's what I ment. He will make great gains even if he squated and benched every day at high volume.
I just started my friend in working out, and he doesn't listen to me. He goes in the gym a few times a day and does whatever he wants. He grows like a weed.
-sk
bigguns15
New member
louden_swain said:
They are really arbitrary percentages that we have tailored to me through trial and error over the years. I now start my cycles at 8 reps. The sets of 10 are more for conditioning and building your initial strength base. I feel like already have this base established so I can start a little heavier. However, since I am doing less reps, my percentages can be higher. Usually, I can do that amount of weight for more than 8 reps and I feel like it is too light. I have found that I need to hold myself back a little in the beginning. If I had no percentages, I would be going balls to the wall every workout and end up overtraining or peaking too early.
D
Debaser
Guest
needsize said:
1. Maybe you missed the part where I advocated HST as well as DC.
2. You have not tried either of these programs. You said you "tried everything," but it doesn't sound like you've tried anything even remotely resembling these routines.
3. If anyone that has the nerve to disagree gets flamed, then point out where I flamed someone on this thread, besides laticus (who threw the first stone).
4. You are missing the point yet again. I'm not saying that one routine is the most effective, but the concept of frequency is the key to gaining quickly. DC and HST are 2 routines that take advantage of this fact. Assuming you're not overtraining, if you can train a bodypart more often, that part will grow more often. There are numerous scientific studies supporting this (hell, HST has more science backing it than any other routine, so why do you insist that it's all "anecdotal"?), not to mention it's simple fucking logic to boot.
Anyone care to stop the pissing contest? lol...I'll try. If people want to piss for distance...I highly doubt that you are going to find anyone who can match me body for body, strength for strength, body weight for body weight, and agility for agility... To add to that...I don't train DC, HST, Weider Principles, OL, or strict WSB. I take a little of everything (MOSTLY WSB) and make it my own.
One of the big KEYS to progressive strength training (what we all do) is finding the right combination between intensity and volume. You can't have 100 percent intensity with 100 percent volume. You also can't have 10 percent intensity with 10 percent volume and expect the best gains. Finding it somewhere in the middle is the key. Sure, it varies a bit, but there IS a standard somewhere.
DC training takes it to an extreme of the variation. A trainee uses 100 percent intensity with 10 percent volume (or so, hopefully you get the point). It is an extreme of a theory... It has been put into place for many and I have used training principles VERY similar to them over the years with very limited success. The gains would be good for 3-4 weeks maximum then they would stall or actually work towards the negative.
There is a reason why people 'increase the volume' in their workouts. Simply, because it works. You can't increase the volume to an extreme amount (obviously, and people are taking it to the extreme...especially for 'arguments' sake...) but it does make a difference.
When a strength contest comes nearer...one starts to bring up the volume on their hams, erectors, glutes, triceps, abs, rotators, lats, etc... Of course...the last week they use ZERO volume to let their body recover and be completely ready for the contest.
One of the biggest problems with the DC method is that the volume is so low that the amount of weight lifted is VERY low (yes, it DOES make a big difference in muscular growth, recruitmen, and strength gains). When powerlifters start to go from doing 6 sets of 8 to tapering down (over 10-14 weeks) to doing 2 sets of 2 or even singles....the amount of weight or volume per workout is so low that they actually start to digress in their strength even though they are pushing heavier weights.
The second major problem I see with the DC program is that if you have an issue with form on a certain exercise...you only get basically ONE set to fix it per week. You also have one balls to the wall set that you can really screw yourself with (serious injury). A beginner has NO BUSINESS doing this type of routine simply for that reason. A beginner would greatly benefit from doing one of Cornholio's routine where you are performing the big lifts on a bi/tri-weekly basis and you have a lot of opportunity to perfect the lifts.
Debasser, please refrain from EVER saying that DC will produce the FASTEST results or that it is the BEST....EVER again!!! That kind of statement has no business here. Trust me...I know. I got into it with Cornholio over a year ago and it nearly ruined the relationship between the two of us (he is one of the nicest persons you can ever meet). We both made remarks to each other similar to these, it got personal, and he left for a long time. Do NOT run anyone off with your attitude!!!
B True
One of the big KEYS to progressive strength training (what we all do) is finding the right combination between intensity and volume. You can't have 100 percent intensity with 100 percent volume. You also can't have 10 percent intensity with 10 percent volume and expect the best gains. Finding it somewhere in the middle is the key. Sure, it varies a bit, but there IS a standard somewhere.
DC training takes it to an extreme of the variation. A trainee uses 100 percent intensity with 10 percent volume (or so, hopefully you get the point). It is an extreme of a theory... It has been put into place for many and I have used training principles VERY similar to them over the years with very limited success. The gains would be good for 3-4 weeks maximum then they would stall or actually work towards the negative.
There is a reason why people 'increase the volume' in their workouts. Simply, because it works. You can't increase the volume to an extreme amount (obviously, and people are taking it to the extreme...especially for 'arguments' sake...) but it does make a difference.
When a strength contest comes nearer...one starts to bring up the volume on their hams, erectors, glutes, triceps, abs, rotators, lats, etc... Of course...the last week they use ZERO volume to let their body recover and be completely ready for the contest.
One of the biggest problems with the DC method is that the volume is so low that the amount of weight lifted is VERY low (yes, it DOES make a big difference in muscular growth, recruitmen, and strength gains). When powerlifters start to go from doing 6 sets of 8 to tapering down (over 10-14 weeks) to doing 2 sets of 2 or even singles....the amount of weight or volume per workout is so low that they actually start to digress in their strength even though they are pushing heavier weights.
The second major problem I see with the DC program is that if you have an issue with form on a certain exercise...you only get basically ONE set to fix it per week. You also have one balls to the wall set that you can really screw yourself with (serious injury). A beginner has NO BUSINESS doing this type of routine simply for that reason. A beginner would greatly benefit from doing one of Cornholio's routine where you are performing the big lifts on a bi/tri-weekly basis and you have a lot of opportunity to perfect the lifts.
Debasser, please refrain from EVER saying that DC will produce the FASTEST results or that it is the BEST....EVER again!!! That kind of statement has no business here. Trust me...I know. I got into it with Cornholio over a year ago and it nearly ruined the relationship between the two of us (he is one of the nicest persons you can ever meet). We both made remarks to each other similar to these, it got personal, and he left for a long time. Do NOT run anyone off with your attitude!!!
B True
D
Debaser
Guest
1. If the total weight lifted makes such a big difference in muscular growth and strength, then why am I (and SO MANY OTHERS) making such huge, fast gains in both size and strength? I only wish you participated in animal's board when the original thread was posted, there were lots of naturals who were gaining so fast that others thought they were on gear. I put on 40 lbs of muscle this year, and that's with wasted months of improper focus/diet/training.
2. We're not talking about beginners here. I'm not sure how this came about. A beginner should learn proper form before doing ANY routine.
3.
See #4 on my reply to needsize.
2. We're not talking about beginners here. I'm not sure how this came about. A beginner should learn proper form before doing ANY routine.
3.
See #4 on my reply to needsize.
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