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My Training Theory...........

JKurz1

JKurz1

Banned
Well, I've been attempting the 2-a-day theme for about 2 weeks now and I must say, I'm liking the results. Curious as to why more of you don't adapt the theory? If it's a timing issue, I understand, but esp. for the college boys, I think this is optimal. I train in the am (earrrrly) and hit a large bodypart (well, larger) either chest, back, quads or Delts for no more than 45 minutes. Then, I go back about 10-11 hours later (after 3-4 solid meals) and hit a smaller bodypart, bis, tris, traps, hams....for no more than 25 minutes and maybe some light treadmill work. Looks something like this:

M - OFF (cardio only)
Tues - Chest in am / Bis in PM...20 min of treadmill
Wed - Delts iin am / Tris in Pm....."" "" ""
Thursday - Cardio in am / Hams in PM
Friday - Back in am / Quads in PM

Saturday and Sunday and once a day where I incorporate any lagging bodypart and up the reps/'tempo.........


What do you think?
 
sounds pretty good to me.

I would be doing this if I had a home gym ( or was 5 min away from my gym)


Damn you do back and quads on the same day? I would be exhausted.
 
JKurz1 said:
i havent yet...hmm...might do legs by themselves.....
Click to expand...

You could always do back on Thurs. night (personally, I'd hit it in the AM, and do cardio in the second session), then do Quads Fri. AM, hams Fri. PM.

Also, when you say:

Saturday and Sunday and once a day where I incorporate any lagging bodypart and up the reps/'tempo.........

Do you mean you're training Sat. and Sun., or just one of those days?

Using one of those days to work a lagging bodypart isn't a bad plan, but I'd take an extra day off on the weekend :)

Anyway, it's good you're liking the results. Do you have any goals in mind for the immediate future?
 
Hey bro...good idea on the legs and I'll take you up on that...how do I like it? I love it....cmon, if you do 2 bodyparts together (i.e. chest and tris) how often do you say " Boy I dont feel like doing tris" if you just got done blasting chest.......this way, you get both bp in. You get adequate rest. And you get to fuel the furnace in between sessions. I'll admit, many times I dont feel like going back, but that's why I do a smaller bp in the PM............my goals? To put on some lean muscle mass (about 10-15lbs) over the next 6-8 months.............you ever used this style? The JKURZ style....lol....hey, make this a sticky....lol..........
 
4 days in a row aren't happening for me, especially after legs or back I need a solid day to recover. But time will tell if it works for you
 
it sounds good, but even though they say your energy level is highest in the morning, i sure as hell don't feel it. i don't know if i can manage the larger body parts in the mornings
 
very interesting. I am in college and could very easily use this new training method. The thing is I always feel my strongest from about 12-5 during the day, working out in the early morning might be a struggle. I think with this type of routine each muscle group would feel very fresh when you worked them out.
 
If it works for you, that's great. But I don't think it's plausible for a lot of people for various reasons. For one, I don't have the time to go twice, two, my energy level is non-existent in the morning, and three I don't want to take 3 showers a day. ;)
 
Sounds solid brother!! Not to practical for me since I awake in the evenings and live 25 mins from my gym. Also I like to get it all done with so I have the rest of the day to eat. My single sessions are almost always over 2 hours easy. At the moment my sessions are shorter then before since Im training more BB style now, to get around this injury. Great post!! Keep me updated with the results!
 
Yeah, if you can stick with it I'm sure you'll see some favorable results. Intensity is the key. Make sure you don't favor your am session over your pm, and vice versa.
 
jkurz what interests me is this:

what are your lifts/stats (please don't add weight :D )

are you trying to find ways to increase gym time?

are you at college?

i have been through similar situation ..my girl and u split so i started fininding ways to train x2 a day..i lived in the gym.
 
6'2...190....8%BF.....My time in the gym has actually DECREASED...instead on doing two bodyparts and mustering through 1.5 hours (the second half hour of just trying to get through the fatigue of the first major muscle group worked) Im doing two 35 minute sesssions fully recouped.............I'm 27, a CPA, and in tax season working 12+ hours a day...so I need that second session after sitting in an office for 11 hours......
 
A CPA, huh? I was thinking of becoming an accountant. That, or a psychiatrist. Not too sure which I want to pursue yet. I'm kind of steering towards both.
 
jkurz-

sounds good, let me know in cauple of weeks if you start feeling overtrained
That's what happened to me, but up till that point, I loved 2 sessions a day
(damn I miss being in school)
 
Who's in school??? I wont fee overtrained........and if I do, I won't know it...trained like this forever.........
 
you have always overtrained. you don't even know what it is like to train optimally. not a flame bro in anyway..but all your crazy 6x a week double split systems are what is hurting your gains
 
why thanks oh knowledgeable one...........hey, I'm 6'2, pushing 195lbs and diced......I'm benching 315 for 3 at the end of my session and squating around 350.....I'll be pretty confident at the beach this year as well.....will you Dorian?
 
Dorain, you shouldn't jump to such conclusions. Sorry, but overtraining isn't as real a thing as people really make it out to be. The body can adapt to that much work. Aparently, JKurz has been able to do so.
 
Tom Treutlein said:
Dorain, you shouldn't jump to such conclusions. Sorry, but overtraining isn't as real a thing as people really make it out to be. The body can adapt to that much work. Aparently, JKurz has been able to do so.
Click to expand...
thanx for the support bro...........

Dorian - Convince me that (for example) my am session of chest/calves, which is intense, that last 35 minutes and my pm training, intense, of bis which last 25-30 minutes is anywhere near as overtraining as someone that does chest and bis in one session for an hour and half?
 
BE open to other's criticism but also take it with a grain of salt. Jkurz1 is showing some great progress. Now ask yourself do you think you might be able to optimize your goal and gains by doing something different that before. I do this often after each training cycle and take advice from those I trust based on research and experience. Personally I could not train 6x a week but some can. Each person is different so they respond differently, that is why we have the boards....
 
This is a funny post, because it's old, and when it was young, I agreed with Dorian. But it's clear over time than JKurz is not stupid, and he is paying attention to his body. Also, I am keeping to short erratic workouts rather than long marathon sets. Keeping to 40min workouts really lends itself to an increase in intensity. I believe the brain knows subconciously that it's going to work out for 90 minutes, so the brain prevents itself from going "balls to the wall". It's kind of like hitting yourself in the face, only the crazy can do it. When you limit your workout to 40min (half it), it seems that the weights jump about 20 lbs on big lifts after two weeks, once the brain "settles down" and believes the if it really overextends the body, it's ok, because the workout will be brief.

Also, Dorian's name sort of implied maybe a fondness for Dorian yates and an HIT influence. But he has a thread on this board criticizing Dorian Yates' workout, namely whole body each week, four day split in Dorian's case. In fact, he advocates high frequency almost HST ideas. Yet here he is bringing up "overtraining" and other Mentzerian specters which are ridiculed in HST approaches as unscientific. Frankly, I can't figure him out now, except that he likes to criticize JKurz. Maybe it would be interesting for Dorian to discuss his training philosophy for clarification, and to share his routine/stats/and growth.
 
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Tom Treutlein said:
Dorain, you shouldn't jump to such conclusions. Sorry, but overtraining isn't as real a thing as people really make it out to be. The body can adapt to that much work. Aparently, JKurz has been able to do so.
Click to expand...


Don't believe in overtraining huh? You believe that the body adapts?

You are correct...it adapts. It stops growing and it realizes that the ONLY way that the body can sustain certain workloads is to spend more time recovering instead of growing.

THIS is the case with me. In my sport it doesn't matter how big you are, you must be strong. But...being strong doesn't get it either...you must be athletic, quick, agile, etc...as well. THIS keeps my body in an adaptation phase where it does NOT get stronger as it must use everything to physically adapt to the abuse that I am putting on it.

On another note...I've never been a fan of the 2 day split. I am a fairly large person and once I train...I need LOTS of rest time. My sessions are intense and 10-12 hours later I am NOT ready to go again. The weights that my body is pushing is very taxing and I need as much rest as humanly possible.

Even though you are not lifting but 3 days a week...there are SEVEN sessions in there. Then you add in that you are also doing 2 extra sessions of cardio only in the mix and you have NINE seperate sessions taking place per week.

My body would adapt, that is for sure. I'd get smaller and weaker.

B True
 
bros- you have ALL made excellent posts.....no matter which side of the fence you are on.......that's why I made the post. Very interesting.......We need more intellectual posts with some solid questions.
 
I hear ya', B, but if you gave your body the nutrition it needed, I would think it would adapt to the workload and be able to sustain its current size and strength. Maybe I'm wrong, but I think there's a lot more the body is capable of than we let on.

I can do 2 sessions a day, three days a week. That's six training sessions, by the way, not seven...unless I read something wrong.
 
jkurz, what's your exercises during your sessions? I'm very interested in your workout. I have a friend that works out similar to yours, with the exception that he combines it in one day for a long workout session, which I doubt I could handle, so splitting it up like you would fit in just right for me. But for my friend, working out like he does, he's a really big person and has been doing that for awhile. Thanks.
 
Tom Treutlein said:
I hear ya', B, but if you gave your body the nutrition it needed, I would think it would adapt to the workload and be able to sustain its current size and strength. Maybe I'm wrong, but I think there's a lot more the body is capable of than we let on.

I can do 2 sessions a day, three days a week. That's six training sessions, by the way, not seven...unless I read something wrong.
Click to expand...

I've never been accused of not getting enough food...lol.

Like I said...the body WOULD adapt. It will adapt to whatever stresses you put on it. The thing is...it adapts to how YOU treat it...not how you WANT it to turn out. If you want to sustain...that is one thing. If you want to gain...that is another.

My reply about workouts (the number) was to Jkurz1 in which he is doing 9 different workouts per week. You know what...I could do 9 different workouts and my body would adapt...by getting smaller. It might also get into better cardiovascular shape...but it would probably get weaker and smaller in the process.

I also believe that the rules completely change when it comes to results comparing to where the person is in reaching their genetic potential. When I was 200 pounds...I could still do near anything and grow. I'm at a fairly lean 285+ right now and a HUGE workload (without drugs) would cause me to lose a lot.

B True
 
Gentleman....

I hate to break it to you Jkurz1 but this is far from your theory !!!
Maybe your just joking around but Joe weider's and many other people (lee haney, franco Columbo) have been using a 4 day or 6 day split for years using 2 workout's a day

eg Columbo's Week 6 day split
Morning Evening

Mon Chest, shoulders Arms, Ab's
Tue BAck Calves, thighs
Wed Chest, shoulders, abs
Thu Arms, claves
Fri Thigh's, calves, Abs back
Sat chest, shoulders, abs
Sun full rest

If you have the time and you can stick to a twice a day workout , it is very effective and has been for years, I have done this for a while and gained great results !!! just many people now do not have time to do this because of our 21st century busy lifestyles

the pro's of old loved to do this...... It is very good but very strenous

Nuff Said
 
whatchutalkinboutwillis said:
Gentleman....

I hate to break it to you Jkurz1 but this is far from your theory !!!
Maybe your just joking around but Joe weider's and many other people (lee haney, franco Columbo) have been using a 4 day or 6 day split for years using 2 workout's a day

eg Columbo's Week 6 day split
Morning Evening

Mon Chest, shoulders Arms, Ab's
Tue BAck Calves, thighs
Wed Chest, shoulders, abs
Thu Arms, claves
Fri Thigh's, calves, Abs back
Sat chest, shoulders, abs
Sun full rest

If you have the time and you can stick to a twice a day workout , it is very effective and has been for years, I have done this for a while and gained great results !!! just many people now do not have time to do this because of our 21st century busy lifestyles

the pro's of old loved to do this...... It is very good but very strenous

Nuff Said
Click to expand...


Boy, and I was just about to copyright this routine as well....damn! lol...didnt mean for you to take it literally bro........I know I wasnt the developer...........
 
b fold the truth said:
I've never been accused of not getting enough food...lol.

Like I said...the body WOULD adapt. It will adapt to whatever stresses you put on it. The thing is...it adapts to how YOU treat it...not how you WANT it to turn out. If you want to sustain...that is one thing. If you want to gain...that is another.

My reply about workouts (the number) was to Jkurz1 in which he is doing 9 different workouts per week. You know what...I could do 9 different workouts and my body would adapt...by getting smaller. It might also get into better cardiovascular shape...but it would probably get weaker and smaller in the process.

I also believe that the rules completely change when it comes to results comparing to where the person is in reaching their genetic potential. When I was 200 pounds...I could still do near anything and grow. I'm at a fairly lean 285+ right now and a HUGE workload (without drugs) would cause me to lose a lot.

B True
Click to expand...


285 and lean?????? What's lean? Can I see your routine?
 
Take B Fold advice, it is base on experience and competition at the top level Drug -Free. I agree with Clint to a Degree I could never get away doing heavy compund lifts 6xweek. When I was younger I could do that and pitch a game after with ease but when at the body's gentic limit it becomes real hard to gain muscle so you need more rest and food.
 
Lord_Suston said:
Take B Fold advice, it is base on experience and competition at the top level Drug -Free. I agree with Clint to a Degree I could never get away doing heavy compund lifts 6xweek. When I was younger I could do that and pitch a game after with ease but when at the body's gentic limit it becomes real hard to gain muscle so you need more rest and food.
Click to expand...

Very impressive website bfold.....and I do respect your opinion...could I see a sample of your current routine? You look pretty tight at 290, bf%?

Hey, I'm not saying my approach is best. I'm alkways willing to try new routines/diets. But, put yourself in my shoes. I train hard first thing in the am and have to be at work by 6am. Now, when 5 pm rolls around, after sitting for 10 hours and eating 6 meals, I feel like I need to move my legs, or do something! Thats why I go back for another half hour session.......what do you reccomend?
 
Ok it seems that one is not allowed to say anything without risk of causing offence. Jkurz you created this thread for others to read and comment upon,i did so.

You make a statement like 'I wont feel overtrained........and if I do, I won't know it...trained like this forever........'.

Fine.However,you make many,many threads asking for help/advice...asking if you should train x2 a day. You spend most of your freetime in the gym and you are always changing what you do. This makes any sane man start to wonder if you're seeing the results you want - after all I never see Needsize,Clint,Walkingbeast starting numerous 'help me'...'what do you think about...' threads. These are experienced guys who train a certain,sensible way and stick to it.

I'm sorry,but 6'2 and 195 is by no means massive ....how the hell do you know that a reduction in volume would not get you bigger? why are you so oversensitive if someone argues against your constant desire to INCREASE volume further and suggests the possibility of DECREASING it?

If you were finding your training rewarding I doubt you would come here and post the kind of threads you do. You must know that most guys (the great walkingbeast excepted) train using more moderate volume why do you feel the need to buck the trend.



It got you this far? bro,it got everyone this far...i only know a handful of lifters who didn't crazy overtrain when they were young and/or starting out.

Given the things you post it is clear you are not progressing that much and are frustrated by this,i was actually trying to help you becuase i have been there. If you were so set why do you need advice so much? you think Arnold would have come here in his heyday? hell no! because he would know that all he would get is people disagreeing with his methods, he would say fuck it becuase it worked for him and the hell with us. You don't do that because it aint working.

And kindly dont try to start shit with me like you did on that other thread...you have a problem PM me ,we can talk there but you aren't in any position to 'warn' me.

finally, I'm beach ready?? to honest bro fuck the beach i don't lift for that crap. i lift to be strong,.muscular and powerful and 6'2 195lbs isn't that

F
 
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I think you're taking this a bit too far, bro. It's good to make a thread with different opinions, but let's not be ignorant and use offensive words. If you don't like the workout but it works for others, then leave it be.
 
JKurz1 said:
Very impressive website bfold.....and I do respect your opinion...could I see a sample of your current routine? You look pretty tight at 290, bf%?

Hey, I'm not saying my approach is best. I'm alkways willing to try new routines/diets. But, put yourself in my shoes. I train hard first thing in the am and have to be at work by 6am. Now, when 5 pm rolls around, after sitting for 10 hours and eating 6 meals, I feel like I need to move my legs, or do something! Thats why I go back for another half hour session.......what do you reccomend?
Click to expand...

I am a strongman and my training revolves around heavy weights, logs, yokes, tires, stones, wheels, etc...

B True
 
Lord_Suston said:
Take B Fold advice, it is base on experience and competition at the top level Drug -Free. I agree with Clint to a Degree I could never get away doing heavy compund lifts 6xweek. When I was younger I could do that and pitch a game after with ease but when at the body's gentic limit it becomes real hard to gain muscle so you need more rest and food.
Click to expand...


Yes, Id have to agree with this. I only do heavy compound lifts 3X a week at the most. And I make sure it tears me the fuck up. I used to be able to train 6-7X a week no problem, and moved furniture, plus biked 14 miles a day (transportation). These days, I lift much more weight and have learned to apply even more intensity then years ago. I think when you add that much more weight to all your lifts, the accumulative stress is MUCH greater. I only train about 5X a week now, max. I may hit 6, but thats rare. I was doing 4 days for a while, not training legs but deadlifting. I was still quite torn up.
 
Dorian'sDisciple said:
after all I never see Needsize,Clint,Walkingbeast starting numerous 'help me'...'what do you think about...' threads. These are experienced guys who train a certain,sensible way and stick to it.
Click to expand...


ThanX for the compliments brother!! I still have so much to learn.The knowledge that is most useful to me, is the knowledge of what I need to do to grow and get stronger. Not merely book knowledge, though it can be somewhat applied to lifting. I think the real knowledge comes from experience. Ive stuck to my routine for all the time Ive been training, with lots of modifications, but Ive been plateaud for the last few years size-wise. My strength has increased quite a bit, but measurements have been at a stand still. My arms have grown, slowly, but upper body especially has been stagnant. I think it has alot to do with me not eating enough and staying consistant with my diet. So I still have alot to work on as well. Without getting in the middle of the arguments, lets try not to flame eachother or resort to any name calling. Since its just a discussion board , no need for it to get personal. If anyone really has an issue with another member you can always take it up in PM's. Ive gotten angry on here too, so I understand!! Train Or Fuckin Die!!!!
 
Dorian'sDisciple said:
Ok it seems that one is not allowed to say anything without risk of causing offence. Jkurz you created this thread for others to read and comment upon,i did so.

You make a statement like 'I wont feel overtrained........and if I do, I won't know it...trained like this forever........'.

Fine.However,you make many,many threads asking for help/advice...asking if you should train x2 a day. You spend most of your freetime in the gym and you are always changing what you do. This makes any sane man start to wonder if you're seeing the results you want - after all I never see Needsize,Clint,Walkingbeast starting numerous 'help me'...'what do you think about...' threads. These are experienced guys who train a certain,sensible way and stick to it.

I'm sorry,but 6'2 and 195 is by no means massive ....how the hell do you know that a reduction in volume would not get you bigger? why are you so oversensitive if someone argues against your constant desire to INCREASE volume further and suggests the possibility of DECREASING it?

If you were finding your training rewarding I doubt you would come here and post the kind of threads you do. You must know that most guys (the great walkingbeast excepted) train using more moderate volume why do you feel the need to buck the trend.



It got you this far? bro,it got everyone this far...i only know a handful of lifters who didn't crazy overtrain when they were young and/or starting out.

Given the things you post it is clear you are not progressing that much and are frustrated by this,i was actually trying to help you becuase i have been there. If you were so set why do you need advice so much? you think Arnold would have come here in his heyday? hell no! because he would know that all he would get is people disagreeing with his methods, he would say fuck it becuase it worked for him and the hell with us. You don't do that because it aint working.

And kindly dont try to start shit with me like you did on that other thread...you have a problem PM me ,we can talk there but you aren't in any position to 'warn' me.

finally, I'm beach ready?? to honest bro fuck the beach i don't lift for that crap. i lift to be strong,.muscular and powerful and 6'2 195lbs isn't that

F
Click to expand...

Oh Dorian....relax. First of all, when I did I ever claim to be massive? I said I was content with my strength and get compliments on my muscle growth, symetry, etc. on a reoccurring basis. That makes me confident. I'm also confident enough and in good enough shape to walk on stage with just a few tune ups. Sure, I'd get killed at 6'2, but thats not my point. My point is I train to look good, feel good, and well, as a hobby. My goal is not to try and squat 700lbs or bench 500. I'm happy getting 350 and also having the 6-pack to show off. Sounds arrogant, but to a degree, we all are.

As for my ? in my posts, 99% are for informational purposes. May pertain to me, may not. I enjoy helping others and I enjoy learning as much as I can about bodybuilding, the sport and the lifestyle.

You on the other hand, are so narrow minded and so into "my theory is the only theory" that it's pretty much worthless trying to talk to you. I'm not the only one that feels this way and I know you know that. Anyways, if it's so hard for you to learn from others, absorb some ideas of others and possibly stray from you current beliefs from time to time, then so be it. If it REALLY bothers you, just skip reading my posts......not looking for arguments. Just constructive cristism, which you obvioulsy have none to offer.
 
so you guys are saying that if i one day started out db pressing the 60's and maybe 1-2 years later slowly progressed and was able to now press the 130's+ that i would of experienced no muscle growth?, but i would simply be recruiting more fibers? what a bunch of bs. only dudes i see pressing the heavies in the gym have large chests to back it up. no skinny dudes magically throwing around the big weights. sure maybe in something so heavily reliant on cns as the squat, deadlift, and to a lesser extent the bench press, but sometimes shit cant be faked. you either have it or you dont.
 
jkurz i'm extending the olive branch. i was maybe a bit too forthright in my views but i believe you got offended a little easily.

peace bro- i really was only trying to help you..i called it as i saw it. lets forget it dawg
 
Nicely said, Dorian.

I think that's gentlemanly and very reasonable *pats you on the back* JKurz is a cool guy too; I'm sure he'll agree.
 
whatchutalkinboutwillis said:
nice site bfold........ Looks good i would like to discuss numbers with you sometime
Click to expand...

Thanks...

What kind of numbers?

B True
 
Dorian'sDisciple said:
jkurz i'm extending the olive branch. i was maybe a bit too forthright in my views but i believe you got offended a little easily.

peace bro- i really was only trying to help you..i called it as i saw it. lets forget it dawg
Click to expand...

Fo' sure..........water under the bridge bro..........It's just out competitive nature that cause these "wars".....but, its all good in the end as long as we've learned something. Hey, I'll be the first to admit that I MAY be overtrained. I treat it as a hobby. Can you get overtrained or burned out from playing 36 holes a day or playing hoops at lunch, 7 days a week? Sure....but it's for love of the game......at least for me....I'm not competeing, I just want to look and feel good,,,,,granted, I need to put on 20lbs to really LOOK good, but I got the symetry part down, now I just need to put on the mass. Trust me, I know HOW to do it...it's a total mind over matter thing....my guilt is so powerful, that it almost kills me............true sickness. I cant stra one little eon from my diet or else I feel like hell for the rest of the day....I just wish I could eat more and do less without having to worry,,,,,,,bros till the end Dorian........... :chomp:
 
HP_816 said:
so you guys are saying that if i one day started out db pressing the 60's and maybe 1-2 years later slowly progressed and was able to now press the 130's+ that i would of experienced no muscle growth?, but i would simply be recruiting more fibers? what a bunch of bs. only dudes i see pressing the heavies in the gym have large chests to back it up. no skinny dudes magically throwing around the big weights. sure maybe in something so heavily reliant on cns as the squat, deadlift, and to a lesser extent the bench press, but sometimes shit cant be faked. you either have it or you dont.
Click to expand...

would anyone like to comment on that? because i started out at like 60's with barely any chest and now 8 months later im at 95's and have noticed good growth in the chest area, so how can you people say that big increases in strength only means your cns is working better?
 
HP_816 said:
would anyone like to comment on that? because i started out at like 60's with barely any chest and now 8 months later im at 95's and have noticed good growth in the chest area, so how can you people say that big increases in strength only means your cns is working better?
Click to expand...

I wasn't quite sure where your first post came from.. who did you see here say that getting stronger means you won't grow more muscle? Hard to tell cause you didn't quote.
 
Best Squat was 800 x 1 last Summer in St. Louis
Deadlifted 500 x 15 in 60 seconds at a contest in 2002 (October)
Pulled a raw 705.5 x 1 in November 2003
Log Clean and Press 325.5 x 1 last week (with a hard log)
Close Grip Bench 365 x 4 2 weeks ago, 315 x 10 this week
Incline Bench 315 x 8 couple months ago
Seated Dbell Press 110's x 6 easy (hard to clean, easy to press)

I'm not really all that gym strong as I am more athletically inclined in the Strongman Events per se.

B True
 
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