MASS - please give me your advice

[cobracock1979]

I already did...
Reread the studies please

Johnson, I read the study you provided in order to prove insulin has no effect on protein synthesis - this study in no way proves this.

Its actually a poor study in general. Small group, no mention of the type of carbohydrate used, no quantative figures on the insulin changes. Also, there was NO INGESTION OF PROTEIN with the carbohydrate, so where is the relevance?

Even so, this only goes to show that increases insulin levels DO promote extra protein synthesis via a progressive decrease in protein breakdown (although the effect may be less pronounced than some people say). It also states that the ingestion of amino acids is MORE effective in protein synthesis.

This only goes to show that a carbohydrate + amino acid shake PWO would be effective in increasing protein synthesis PWO.

I would suggest that if you wish to prove that insulin has no positive effect on protein synthesis PWO, you provide a study from a reputable source on the effect of the addition of carbohydrate + amino's PWO, which gives qualative and quantitive figures on insulin levels, total protein synthesis levels and the types of carbs used.

Net muscle protein balance between synthesis and breakdown did not change in Pla, whereas it improved in CHO from -17 ± 3 nmol·ml-1·100 ml leg-1 before drink to an average of -4 ± 4 and 0 ± 3 nmol·ml-1·100 ml leg-1 during the second and third hour after the drink, respectively (P < 0.05 vs. Pla during last hour).The improved net balance in gropu which ingester carbohydrate was due primarily to a progressive decrease in muscle protein breakdown. We conclude that ingestion of carbohydrates improved net leg protein balance after resistance exercise. However, the effect was minor and delayed compared with the previously reported effect of ingestion of amino acids.

By the way, I started a new thread on this subject in the diet forum.

 

[gjohnson5]

Johnson, I read the study you provided in order to prove insulin has no effect on protein synthesis - this study in no way proves this.

You obviously didn't read the study....

Its actually a poor study in general. Small group, no mention of the type of carbohydrate used, no quantative figures on the insulin changes. Also, there was NO INGESTION OF PROTEIN with the carbohydrate, so where is the relevance?

LOL
1. You didn't read the study apparently because there were 2 groups not 1
2. Once again you didn't read the study. It clearly states

"In CHO, subjects were given a drink consisting of 100 g of carbohydrates (maltodextrin) in double distilled water at 1 h postexercise. In Pla, a placebo drink with artificial sweetener was ingested instead."

As I stated in the original study , GI of a carbohydrate is moot in terms of body composition.

3. Sampling serum insulin levels would make a difference how? The net result of insulin is to
A. Recharge glycogen in muscle
B. Aid in building or reconstruction of muscle PWO

The study clearly demonstrates point B. Posting serum insulin levles is moot since this is not a study of diabetics with impared glucose uptake.

All your points are moot....

Even so, this only goes to show that increases insulin levels DO promote extra protein synthesis via a progressive decrease in protein breakdown (although the effect may be less pronounced than some people say). It also states that the ingestion of amino acids is MORE effective in protein synthesis.

The part in bold makes no sense at all. Either protein are created, spared or they are metabolized through gluconeogenesis. Protein sythesis is not created through reductions in gluconeogenesis.

You need to study up on the meaning of protein sythesis. Protein sythesis means that amino acids from the amino acid pool in the blood are combined in order to create skeletal muscle. This has absolutly nothing to do with gluceonegenesis / cortisol or the actof breaking down proteins for energy usage. The two are separate ... Infact they are exact opposite. Slowing one does not mean you gain in the other.

Anyway There are numerous studies which indicate that when adequate proteins are available , carbohydrate intake is moot. Hence the point of the thread....

This only goes to show that a carbohydrate + amino acid shake PWO would be effective in increasing protein synthesis PWO.

I'm not sure where you got that idea , but It's not stated anywhere in the study and I doubt you'd find a study that states that either. I've looked once and I'll be happy to look again

Anyway I removed the bottom part of your post because it's moot
The questions I've already answered

 

[cobracock1979]

You obviously didn't read the study....



LOL
1. You didn't read the study apparently because there were 2 groups not 1
2. Once again you didn't read the study. It clearly states

"In CHO, subjects were given a drink consisting of 100 g of carbohydrates (maltodextrin) in double distilled water at 1 h postexercise. In Pla, a placebo drink with artificial sweetener was ingested instead."

I asked where is the PROTEIN in the study - one group with carbs, one group without. Neither group ingested protein duing the study

As I stated in the original study , GI of a carbohydrate is moot in terms of body composition.

3. Sampling serum insulin levels would make a difference how? It would tell us the effect of carbohydrate ingestion compared to the size of the insulin spike

The net result of insulin is to
A. Recharge glycogen in muscle -
B. Aid in building or reconstruction of muscle PWO - you have already stated that insulid does not aid in protein synthesis. Make your mind up - your study only shows insulin to stop muscle breakdown - NOT reconstruction.

The study clearly demonstrates point B. Posting serum insulin levles is moot since this is not a study of diabetics with impared glucose uptake. Its not moot - the level of insulin is very relevant as we are trying to compare the effect of inulin spike - vs no insulin spike

All your points are moot.... Not true.


The part in bold makes no sense at all. Either protein are created, spared or they are metabolized through gluconeogenesis. Protein sythesis is not created through reductions in gluconeogenesis. This makes no sense and has nothing to do with my statement
You need to study up on the meaning of protein sythesis. Protein sythesis means that amino acids from the amino acid pool in the blood are combined in order to create skeletal muscle. This has absolutly nothing to do with gluceonegenesis / cortisol or the actof breaking down proteins for energy usage. The two are separate ... Infact they are exact opposite. Slowing one does not mean you gain in the other.

Anyway There are numerous studies which indicate that when adequate proteins are available , carbohydrate intake is moot. Hence the point of the thread.... This makes no sense



I'm not sure where you got that , but It's not stated anywhere in the study and I doubt you'd find a study that states that either. I've looked once and I'll be happy to look again

What im sayiong here is that the study shows that carbs pwo creats increased levels of insulin which slow muscle breakdown. that is ALL your study shows. Your study also states that in ANOTHER study - amino acids PWO gave more net protein synthesis that the Carbohydrate study. Im saying therefore carbs+amino's pwo should give a greater yield than either single study on its own. I then asked if you had such a study? Make sense? I fail to see how you can rubbish the idea of aminos+carbs PWO if you dont have a study relating to it.

Anyway I removed the bottom part of your post because it's moot
The questions I've already answered

Go to the other thread I posted. None of this proves definatively that insulin does not effect protein synthesis - as you stated. Not even close

 

[gjohnson5]

Sigh:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17997840

Effects of ingesting protein with various forms of carbohydrate following resistance-exercise on substrate availability and markers of anabolism, catabolism, and immunity.
Kreider RB, Earnest CP, Lundberg J, Rasmussen C, Greenwood M, Cowan P, Almada AL.

Exercise & Sport Nutrition Lab, Center for Exercise, Nutrition and Preventive Health, Baylor University, Waco, TX, USA. [email protected].

ABSTRACT: BACKGROUND: Ingestion of carbohydrate (CHO) and protein (PRO) following intense exercise has been reported to increase insulin levels, optimize glycogen resynthesis, enhance PRO synthesis, and lessen the immuno-suppressive effects of intense exercise. Since different forms of CHO have varying glycemic effects, the purpose of this study was to determine whether the type of CHO ingested with PRO following resistance-exercise affects blood glucose availability and insulin levels, markers of anabolism and catabolism, and/or general immune markers. METHODS: 40 resistance-trained subjects performed a standardized resistance training workout and then ingested in a double blind and randomized manner 40 g of whey PRO with 120 g of sucrose (S), honey powder (H), or maltodextrin (M). A non-supplemented control group (C) was also evaluated. Blood samples were collected prior to and following exercise as well as 30, 60, 90, and 120 min after ingestion of the supplements. Data were analyzed by repeated measures ANOVA or ANCOVA using baseline values as a covariate if necessary. RESULTS: Glucose concentration 30 min following ingestion showed the H group (7.12 +/- 0.2 mmol/L) to be greater than S (5.53 +/- 0.6 mmol/L; p < 0.03); M (6.02 +/- 0.8 mmol/L; p < 0.05), and C (5.44 +/- 0.18 mmol/L; p < 0.0002) groups. No significant differences were observed among groups in glucose area under the curve (AUC) values, although the H group showed a trend versus control (p = 0.06). Insulin response for each treatment was significant by time (p < 0.0001), treatment (p < 0.0001) and AUC (p < 0.0001). 30-min peak post-feeding insulin for S (136.2 +/- 15.6 uIU/mL), H (150.1 +/- 25.39 uIU/mL), and M (154.8 +/- 18.9 uIU/mL) were greater than C (8.7 +/- 2.9 uIU/mL) as was AUC with no significant differences observed among types of CHO. No significant group x time effects were observed among groups in testosterone, cortisol, the ratio of testosterone to cortisol, muscle and liver enzymes, or general markers of immunity. CONCLUSION: CHO and PRO ingestion following exercise significantly influences glucose and insulin concentrations. Although some trends were observed suggesting that H maintained blood glucose levels to a better degree, no significant differences were observed among types of CHO ingested on insulin levels. These findings suggest that each of these forms of CHO can serve as effective sources of CHO to ingest with PRO in and attempt to promote post-exercise anabolic responses.

If you wish to raise your insulin levels with a PWO drink fine...
Will it affect testosterone and cortisol levels PWO.... Probably not as this states

The only affect drinking excessive carbs PWO will do is increase insulin levels , which would have a negative effect on burning fat PWO.
Will it lead to more increased protein sythesis??? This study seems to indicate that it has no effect on some hormone levels.

Once again , the answer is carbohydrates sources probably won't play a major role in post workout anabolism if adequate proteins are present.


There are lots more

 

[NPC-OHIO]

Sigh:
Effects of ingesting protein with various forms of...[J Int Soc Sports Nutr. 2007] - PubMed Result

Effects of ingesting protein with various forms of carbohydrate following resistance-exercise on substrate availability and markers of anabolism, catabolism, and immunity.
Kreider RB, Earnest CP, Lundberg J, Rasmussen C, Greenwood M, Cowan P, Almada AL.

Exercise & Sport Nutrition Lab, Center for Exercise, Nutrition and Preventive Health, Baylor University, Waco, TX, USA. [email protected].

ABSTRACT: BACKGROUND: Ingestion of carbohydrate (CHO) and protein (PRO) following intense exercise has been reported to increase insulin levels, optimize glycogen resynthesis, enhance PRO synthesis, and lessen the immuno-suppressive effects of intense exercise. Since different forms of CHO have varying glycemic effects, the purpose of this study was to determine whether the type of CHO ingested with PRO following resistance-exercise affects blood glucose availability and insulin levels, markers of anabolism and catabolism, and/or general immune markers. METHODS: 40 resistance-trained subjects performed a standardized resistance training workout and then ingested in a double blind and randomized manner 40 g of whey PRO with 120 g of sucrose (S), honey powder (H), or maltodextrin (M). A non-supplemented control group (C) was also evaluated. Blood samples were collected prior to and following exercise as well as 30, 60, 90, and 120 min after ingestion of the supplements. Data were analyzed by repeated measures ANOVA or ANCOVA using baseline values as a covariate if necessary. RESULTS: Glucose concentration 30 min following ingestion showed the H group (7.12 +/- 0.2 mmol/L) to be greater than S (5.53 +/- 0.6 mmol/L; p < 0.03); M (6.02 +/- 0.8 mmol/L; p < 0.05), and C (5.44 +/- 0.18 mmol/L; p < 0.0002) groups. No significant differences were observed among groups in glucose area under the curve (AUC) values, although the H group showed a trend versus control (p = 0.06). Insulin response for each treatment was significant by time (p < 0.0001), treatment (p < 0.0001) and AUC (p < 0.0001). 30-min peak post-feeding insulin for S (136.2 +/- 15.6 uIU/mL), H (150.1 +/- 25.39 uIU/mL), and M (154.8 +/- 18.9 uIU/mL) were greater than C (8.7 +/- 2.9 uIU/mL) as was AUC with no significant differences observed among types of CHO. No significant group x time effects were observed among groups in testosterone, cortisol, the ratio of testosterone to cortisol, muscle and liver enzymes, or general markers of immunity. CONCLUSION: CHO and PRO ingestion following exercise significantly influences glucose and insulin concentrations. Although some trends were observed suggesting that H maintained blood glucose levels to a better degree, no significant differences were observed among types of CHO ingested on insulin levels. These findings suggest that each of these forms of CHO can serve as effective sources of CHO to ingest with PRO in and attempt to promote post-exercise anabolic responses.

If you wish to raise your insulin levels with a PWO drink fine...
Will it affect testosterone and cortisol levels PWO.... Probably not as this states

The only affect drinking excessive carbs PWO will do is increase insulin levels , which would have a negative effect on burning fat PWO.
Will it lead to more increased protein sythesis??? This study seems to indicate that it has no effect on some hormone levels.

Once again , the answer is carbohydrates sources probably won't play a major role in post workout anabolism if adequate proteins are present.


There are lots more

Run a search and see how many use rice cakes post workout....it ranks with oats, dext, malto, waxy, etc.........proof is in the pudding.

GUS - so what if you weigh more than me, I'm 205 and prob sitting around 8%,..leaves me with about 190lbs of mass.....so if you are 230 or whatever and 20+%that leaves you around 180lbs or so.....enough with the weight factor, its irrelevant

 

[NPC-OHIO]

Training With Sporto: A Quest For Lean Mass, Personal Records, & A Pro Physique! - Bodybuilding.com Forums

 

[OneBreath]

look what I started. Hey it doesn't flippn matter
If it works why change? Drink waxy n whey. I've told
You I did it. I still have a jug of krazy karb. I just
Wanted to try all methods. So far I've looked the best
Recovered the fastest on whole foods. Bananas oats
And the said rice cakes are the best. These rice cakes
Are so good I could eat a case. Choc chip on
Caramel. So good.

Actually this thread has created some interesting debate and entertainment. Dabuff, however, seems to have trumped all research with his declaration "Rice cakes for PWO is doo doo". I mean common, you can't argue with that!

I can't stop laughing.

 

[gjohnson5]

Run a search and see how many use rice cakes post workout....it ranks with oats, dext, malto, waxy, etc.........proof is in the pudding.

GUS - so what if you weigh more than me, I'm 205 and prob sitting around 8%,..leaves me with about 190lbs of mass.....so if you are 230 or whatever and 20+%that leaves you around 180lbs or so.....enough with the weight factor, its irrelevant

Who is GUS???
I know jkurz1 used to call me that and he lives in Columbus....
Are you his alter?

LOL if so
That dude is a total flake....

 

[gjohnson5]

Run a search and see how many use rice cakes post workout....it ranks with oats, dext, malto, waxy, etc.........proof is in the pudding.

GUS - so what if you weigh more than me, I'm 205 and prob sitting around 8%,..leaves me with about 190lbs of mass.....so if you are 230 or whatever and 20+%that leaves you around 180lbs or so.....enough with the weight factor, its irrelevant

And you don't weigh 200lb , you weigh 142
You should lie and then try to rip people

http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/weight-training-weight-lifting/jkurz1-up-beaatch-616532.html

 

[NPC-OHIO]

Who is GUS???
I know jkurz1 used to call me that and he lives in Columbus....
Are you his alter?

LOL if so
That dude is a total flake....

No idea what a jkurz is or who, but I figured your name was Gus from the NBA stiff.....no?