MASS - please give me your advice

[gjohnson5]

Reduced Glycemic Index and Glycemic Load Diets Do Not Increase the Effects of Energy Restriction on Weight Loss and Insulin Sensitivity in Obese Men and Women -- Raatz et al. 135 (10): 2387 -- Journal of Nutrition

Weight loss and insulin sensitivity improved with weight reduction similarly in all 3 groups. Although insulin sensitivity differed between the LGI and HF diets at wk 12, none of the groups differed at wk 36. The amount of weight loss predicted by energy restriction was achieved under controlled dietary conditions. However, the reduced glycemic index and glycemic load did not demonstrably enhance weight reduction in obese men and women.

Upon completion of the feeding phase, subjects in the LGI and HF diet groups tended to have a reduction in body fat and maintenance of lean body mass loss. Our results are consistent with those of Boucher and colleagues (15) who demonstrated lower fat mass by densitometry in subjects following a low glycemic index diet. However, at the conclusion of the free-living phase, body composition did not differ among the groups. It is noteworthy that participants successfully maintained weight loss in a free-living environment when provided with intensive education, consistent nutritional support, and regular follow-up.

The results of this dietary trial demonstrate that energy restriction over a 36-wk period promotes weight loss and improves insulin sensitivity in obese individuals, irrespective of dietary substrate. The hypothesis that a low glycemic load diet would enhance weight loss, relative to other diets, was not supported in either study phase. However, the LGI diet did improve insulin sensitivity at 12 wk compared with the HF diet.

 

[cobracock1979]

I used to preach this stuff too.
From all the studies I've read , there is no association with hi GI foods and body composition.

The above is a myth

Yeah, been looking into this as well. Mixing anything with a carb changes the GI. I been drinking powdered oats and realised that the GI is considerably higher because of the formatt.

I have started eating more high GI stuff to see what happens

 

[gjohnson5]

LOL,

There you go assuming again - like I read that in a mag! Get real and stop being insulting.

Im not flaming bro - if you dont want aggressive respones try gettin your facts straight before youy go accusing knowledgable people of being clueless, thats all. If you want specific answers simply, make your questions specific.

I refer to the above - the question you asked is this "at 208 lbs and 10% BF and 6'2.5, is 3100 cals enough?" The answer is clearly no - if you were at all knowledgable about diet you would know this. You clearly are not.

I dissagree with the PWO thing, but each to their own. Like I said, there is no qustion of the superior insulin response of WM. Just depends how much you value insulin manupilation (insulin being the most powerful anabolic agent on the planet). But I agree in gerneral, eat as much whole foods as possible.

Any way, I said my piece so Ill leave it to other bro's to chime in as you requested.

By the way - I think my avatar should make it clear I know what Im talkin about - just sayin :chomp

1. Maintenance calories is one thing. The correct amount of calories to build muscle is something else. A basal metabolic rate calculator will not tell you that. Also since he's on test , increasing them more may be good for him... Maybe not. it depends on the response his body has to the anabolic and his diet. I am in agreement with most everyone that he probably could raise his calories. But I wouldn't make it sound so simple in finding the right amount of calories to build muscle and NOT gain excessive fat.

2.Dude , you've HAVE been reading magazines....
What studies have you seen that actually PROVED that insulin spikes PWO restore glyocgen more effectively OR built more muscle then whole food eaters. From my reading there is no such proof. This is just crap supplement companies will tell you to buy their products. It's a money trap and nothing more.

I'll reread over the thread and hope to answer any real questions he still has

 

[cobracock1979]

1. Maintenance calories is one thing. The correct amount of calories to build muscle is something else. A basal metabolic rate calculator will not tell you that. Also since he's on test , increasing them more may be good for him... Maybe not. it depends on the response his body has to the anabolic and his diet. I am in agreement with most everyone that he probably could raise his calories. But I wouldn't make it sound so simple in finding the right amount of calories to build muscle and NOT gain excessive fat.

Johnson, read the thread. Earlier I state he will need to incread cals DEPENDING ON HIS GOALS. I then asked what his goals were, he didnt respond.

2.Dude , you've HAVE been reading magazines....
What studies have you seen that actually PROVED that insulin spikes PWO restore glyocgen more effectively OR built more muscle then whole food eaters. From my reading there is no such proof. This is just crap supplement companies will tell you to buy their products. It's a money trap and nothing more.

Are you saying whole food is more effective then? Whats your PWO regime? Are you saying everyone using WM is full of sh*t? .

I'll reread over the thread and hope to answer any real questions he still has

I already answered them.

 

[gjohnson5]

I already answered them.

I'm not saying that whole food , wheat , oats PWO is better... I'm just saying there is NO PROOF that the common muscle and fitness responses to training are correct.

There is no evidence that consuming high GI foods will enhance muscle building after a workout. I'm just trying to point out to you that your responses are myth not knowledge

Effect of carbohydrate intake on net muscle protein synthesis during recovery from resistance exercise -- Børsheim et al. 96 (2): 674 -- Journal of Applied Physiology

This study is the first to compare net muscle protein balance (protein synthesis minus breakdown) after carbohydrate ingestion with control after exercise. The principal finding was that intake of 100 g of carbohydrates after resistance exercise improved muscle net protein balance. However, this improvement was of questionable physiological significance because the net balance did not reach positive values and the improvement was minor compared with the reported effect of intake of amino acids (7, 20).

The present findings show that intake of carbohydrates alone can improve net protein balance between synthesis and breakdown. Previous studies have provided some evidence that carbohydrate ingestion improves protein metabolism when taken alone. Rennie et al. (18) showed improved leucine balance during carbohydrate-supplemented endurance exercise, and Roy et al. (19) found a trend toward higher FSR in response to carbohydrate ingestion after unilateral knee extension. They also observed a decreased excretion of urinary 3-methylhistidine, suggesting a suppression of muscle protein breakdown. However, there was no determination of net muscle protein balance.

In our study, the gradual improvement in net muscle protein balance after carbohydrate intake was due principally to a progressive reduction in breakdown. However, the improvement was small compared with previous findings after intake of amino acids or amino acids + carbohydrates (7, 11, 17, 20, 21). In fact, the balance between synthesis and breakdown did not reach positive values during the 3 h after drink (Fig. 4). The modest effect of carbohydrates alone on net balance supports the findings that intake of 6 g of EAA appeared to stimulate net protein balance as effectively as when 6 g of EAA was given together with 35 g of carbohydrates (7, 17). The response to amino acids is not only greater than the response to carbohydrates, but the onset is also more rapid. The delayed onset of response to carbohydrate intake occurs despite the rapid increases in both arterial plasma glucose and insulin concentrations after intake of the carbohydrates (Fig. 2). Thus it may be that insulin causes a delayed effect on protein metabolism.

The apparently delayed action of insulin on net muscle protein anabolism, as opposed to the rapid effect of amino acids, suggests that delayed intake of amino acids relative to carbohydrates could amplify the potential interactive effect. With this approach, amino acids would be taken up at the peak of insulin action on muscle. With such a staggered approach, a physiologically significant effect of carbohydrate intake after exercise might be evident. However, when given alone or at the same time as free EAA, carbohydrates seem to have little effect on net muscle protein synthesis.

There was no effect of the ingested carbohydrates on protein synthesis in the present study. Similarly, Miller et al. (11) did not find any effect of a smaller dose of carbohydrates (2 x 35 g) postexercise, generating a lower increase in plasma glucose and insulin concentrations compared with the present study, on the disappearance of phenylalanine from plasma into leg muscle. Whereas there is little doubt that insulin stimulates muscle protein synthesis in vitro (24), some controversy exists regarding the effect of insulin on muscle protein synthesis in vivo. Several experiments in animals have supported the notion that insulin stimulates protein synthesis (8, 12, 13). A review of experiments in humans (25) shows that the effect of insulin on muscle protein synthesis is closely related to the concurrent amino acid delivery. When amino acid delivery to muscle is maintained or increased by either infusion or ingestion of amino acids, insulin has been shown to have a positive effect on protein synthesis, whereas little or no effect of insulin on synthesis has been found when there is a simultaneous decrease in amino acid delivery. In the present study, a modest drop in amino acid concentration was observed after carbohydrate intake (Fig. 3), but there was no difference between the two groups in the inflow of amino acids (delivery) to the leg, because blood flow was slightly (but statistically no significantly) higher in CHO. However, muscle intracellular amino acid concentration was lower after drink, thereby limiting the potential response of protein synthesis to the increase in insulin concentration (24).

 

[cobracock1979]

Johnson,

The OP is currently taking 4 wholewhet ricecakes for PWO carbs. you think this is good PWO nutrition? I merely suggested an alternative of 50g WM as an alternative.


Are you relly telling me that you do not believe insulin has a bearing on glcogen replenishment OR protein syntheses PWO?

Come on - if your recommeding this dude is fine eatibng 4 wholemeal rice cakes PWO then Id say thats seriously bad advice - you know better.

 

[NPC-OHIO]

Johnson,

The OP is currently taking 4 wholewhet ricecakes for PWO carbs. you think this is good PWO nutrition? I merely suggested an alternative of 50g WM as an alternative.


Are you relly telling me that you do not believe insulin has a bearing on glcogen replenishment OR protein syntheses PWO?

Come on - if your recommeding this dude is fine eatibng 4 wholemeal rice cakes PWO then Id say thats seriously bad advice - you know better.

Bro - sorry, but it's true, the insulin spike is so overrated and so outdated it's ridiculous. I'm living proof. I recover just as fast and I'm so much leaner now than I ever have been. The only change was I nix the sugar (dex, malt, etc.) Hell, I even tried smarties, I've tried em all....I'm proof babe. I'll never go back.

 

[NPC-OHIO]

Hey boys - here's a quickie. I am 32, sitting around 208, 6'2 1/2 and prob. 10%. I am a lifer, right now on a mild 500mg test, 400mg eq, 100mg of winny, hcg, and adex. Then I'm going to go back to HRT for a few weeks (12). Plan is to get back on stage after a 5 year layoff just to prove it to myself that I can.

So, I am in with a natural pro who knows jack about gear, but knows the fundamentals. he's got me on a good 2 on 1 off split, push, pull routine, all heacy 6-8 reps.

He has designed a diet for me, but i am a tad nervouse that it may be too much. i am a CPA so I sit all day and am currently doing no cardio 9alhough I train hard).....so, would you please look this over. I train late, so most of my meals are structured psot as it's fairly hard for me to qqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqeat during the day due to clients, office, etc. Plus, I'm 100x more hungry in the pm, so I like the set-up, just wondering if it's too much. Thoughts are great!

PROTEIN FAT CARBS CALS
9am
1/2 cup egg whites, 1 white 15 0 4 90
1 YOLK 7 6 0 85
1 CUP OATS 13 6 54 305
1 scoop BEVERLY 25 4 4 130 60
16 # 62 # 610

1pm
6OZ CHICKEN/OSTRICH/BEEF (POST COOK) 41 4 - 211
2 pcs EZEKIEL 4 4 30 200
VEGGIES 4 1 20 200
49 # 9 # 50 # 611

TRAIN FROM 5-630 (GYM IS 20 MINUTES AWAY THIS INCLUDES DRIVE TIME)SIP ON 3 SCOOPS EXTEND

700
2 SCOOP BEVELY INTL 40 7 8 240
4 RICE CAKES 2 4 48 240 42 # 11 # 56 # 480

8:00
6OZ CHICKEN/OSTRICH/BEEF (POST COOK) 41 4 - 211
7 OZ YAM (BEFORE COOKING) 3 0 55 235 1 TB PB 4 8 4 94 48 # 12 # 59 # 540

9:30-2 TBSP Peanut Butter 8 16 7 188
4 PCS EZEKIEL TOAST 12 6 60 400
20 # 22 # 67 # 588

11001 TUB DRY CURD COTTAGE CHEESE 40 - - 400
1 TB PB 4 8 4 94
44 # 8 # 4 # 494

BEDMIDDLE OF NIGHT

PROTEIN COOKIE

46 8 70 # 400 46 # 8 # 70 # 400

289 # 64 300 # 3,135

We've managed to totally get sidetracked.....MY QUESTION IS DO YOU FEEL THE MACROS AND OR CALS ARE TOO MUCH TOO LATE???? THAT IS MY QUESTION.

My maint. is 3100. I want to start lower, so forget the cals at this points. Just the overall cals. His theory is it's ok because I train until 6;30, but I go to bed at 10ish then wake up to eat aand piss....so can I get some assistance there.

 

[gjohnson5]

Johnson,

The OP is currently taking 4 wholewhet ricecakes for PWO carbs. you think this is good PWO nutrition?

I guess the better question is what's wrong with it??
As I posted, there is no evidence that the use of high dose high GI carbs induces a protein synthesis response any better then other diet regimes...

I merely suggested an alternative of 50g WM as an alternative.

Once again why switch from what he is currently doing if there is no proof whatsoever that what he is currently doing for PWO is bad or wrong???

Are you relly telling me that you do not believe insulin has a bearing on glcogen replenishment OR protein syntheses PWO?

There are several other studies which say the same thing I just posted. Unfortunately what we believed in 2002,2003 about diet and training is probably wrong. At one point we believe the earth was flat. People just need to learn what is really factual and adjust

Come on - if your recommeding this dude is fine eatibng 4 wholemeal rice cakes PWO then Id say thats seriously bad advice - you know better.

Then post evidence that your way is better...
Unfortunately too many people read advertisements in magazines and online sites and just assume what the supplement companies are telling them is correct. What you need to understand that alot of this is profit driven. What many of those people are saying has nothing to do with bodybuilding science or testing methodologies at all

 

[NPC-OHIO]

I guess the better question is what's wrong with it??
As I posted, there is no evidence that the use of high dose high GI carbs induces a protein synthesis response any better then other diet regimes...




Once again why switch from what he is currently doing if there is no proof whatsoever that what he is currently doing for PWO is bad or wrong???




There are several other studies which say the same thing I just posted. Unfortunately what we believed in 2002,2003 about diet and training is probably wrong. At one point we believe the earth was flat. People just need to learn what is really factual and adjust



Then post evidence that your way is better...
Unfortunately too many people read advertisements in magazines and online sites and just assume what the supplement companies are telling them is correct. What you need to understand that alot of this is profit driven. What many of those people are saying has nothing to do with bodybuilding science or testing methodologies at all

Karma for your insight, now what about my true question - anythoughts?