When will people finally learn how to train??

[Zoomster]

We're not talking about apples and oranges. If you cut muscle tissue out of a 260 lb. monster and a 110 pound woman and peek at them under a microscope, they'll be indistinguishable. Debaser's statement really isn't that bold, in the sense that he's stating the truth. Each person is not a completely new system to consider, with a grab-bag of training methods to be tried. Science has revealed a good deal about the way muscles grow in the 20+ years you've been training. DC and HST are the result of that, and I really think that one can experience breakthrough growth using either program.

-casual

These training principles are not new, they have been around for 20 plus years. Remember Mike Mentzer?

Look a persons results are determined by many different physiological facts....body type, metabolism, recovery rate, oxygen uptake, blood volume, protein synthesis, muscle tendon connections, natural testosterone levels and on.

Anyway, if you think it will work for you and you are committed to it then these workouts probably will produce results. My point is two fold, one, not everyone prefers this type of training and they do respond to more volume, two, this stuff is not new.

 

[Debaser]

These training principles are not new, they have been around for 20 plus years. Remember Mike Mentzer?

Look a persons results are determined by many different physiological facts....body type, metabolism, recovery rate, oxygen uptake, blood volume, protein synthesis, muscle tendon connections, natural testosterone levels and on.

Anyway, if you think it will work for you and you are committed to it then these workouts probably will produce results. My point is two fold, one, not everyone prefers this type of training and they do respond to more volume, two, this stuff is not new.

Yes I remember Mike Mentzer, so let's compare ideologies:

HIT
Very intense workouts, all the time
Very infrequent workouts, maximum frequency of once a week and sometimes every 2-4 (!) weeks.

HST
Most training is at lower than maximum intensity. Failure, or close to it is only achieved once every 2 weeks.
Very frequent workouts, fullbody 3 times a week or even more.

DC
Most training is very intense. However, 2 week cruising periods (similar to HST strategic deconditioning) are used for CNS recovery.
Frequent workouts, each muscle group is hit 1.5-2 times a week.

I'm not sure how you're brining Mentzer into this. The only similarities are intensity in the DC program. Many programs are intense. What sets his apart is his realization of the fact that more frequency will yield more growth (assuming proper recovery).

Also, considering the central premise of what I'm saying is that frequency=growth, I'm not so sure how you can even refer to Mentzer, as he believed almost the exact opposite. For example, one of his routines (straight from the horses' mouth):


Workout A Flat Dumbell Flies Super Setted1 with Incline Press Close Grip, Palms Down Pull Down Reguar Deadlift

Workout B Leg Extension Super Setted1 with Squats Calf Raise

Workout C Dumbell Laterals Bent Over Dumbell Laterals Curl (Straight Bar) Tricep Pressdown Super Setted1 with Dips

Workout D Leg Extension (static hold2) Super Setted1 with Leg Press Calf Raise

Between each workout is three full days of rest. That means each muscle group is hit twice a month. Which means you are growing 24 times a year. This program will work well for strength but not for size.

 

[DOGGCRAPP]

ZOOMSTER::Simple fact, different people respond differently to different training regimes.
there are physiological differences in people that determine where training and optimum growth occur. You also must consider body type, Endo, Ecto or Mesomorph.

Doggcrapp:: absolute bull! You are talking about genetics and recovery rates thats it! What are you a rock and that guy over there a single celled organism and Im a mammal? Everybody isnt different--what will work for one guy will work for the next if he doesnt overtrain, doesnt undereat, and has the genetics to do so. If you have a black guy with incredible genetics who has the same recovery as a white guy with lousy genetics--you train them exactly the same!!!!! The problem is the white guy probaly doesnt have much of a genetic edge or a high fast twitch fiber count and the black guy is probaly going to get much larger quicker. Case closed. Recovery and elite muscle building genetics ARE THE ONLY DIFFERENCE IN PEOPLE. There are 400 pro bodybuilders in this world. Do you think they are all different? Ronnie Coleman is king of the hill because he has incredible recuperative abilities (hardcore training 6 days a week), incredible genetics and the willpower to lift backbreaking poundages routinely. Dorian Yates didnt have close to the recuperative ability of Coleman but found his niche as far as staying away from overtraining, had good genetics and the willpower to lift backbreaking poundages routinely. Where is the difference? You take anyone (enhanced or natural) and make them their genetically strongest without overtraining and you will have them at their largest. Id like to see anyone prove to me that someone who went to their utmost genetic limit of strength with between 6-20 reps on exercises who then got "bigger" by dropping their poundages in half. Bottom line: the heaviest trainers with multiple reps who dont overtrain are the largest bodybuilders that are out there (according to their genetics)
If your talking enhanced your talking Coleman vs Wheeler -who probaly has better genetics than Coleman but not even close to the determination or willpower to lift the poundages Coleman does--hence the 30-40lb size difference in muscularity between those two. I love this 20 sets vs one set crap--and thats what it is total crap! The guys doing "volume" training is doing 3-4 warmup sets to his heaviest weight which is one set! People who train my way are doing the exact same thing--warming up to their workset which is one set! I dont count warmups but the majority of people do out there and we are all pretty much doing the same things!
One guy like myself counts this this way
INCLINE PRESS 135/225/315/ AND THEN A WORKSET FOR 375 FOR 8 = 1 SET as one set done--he doesnt count warmups--because they are only warmups

Another guy writes this down
135x12
225x10
315x 8
375 x8 (workset)

He writes that down as he just did 4 sets on inclines. Where? did you grow from that 135x12 set? So someone doing 2-3 exercises per bodypart with the same warmup scheme is basically in my book doing 2-3 worksets while my guys do 1-2 all out worksets. Where the is the difference?

 

[TTORO]

Shit i hate when i read a good post and my reply is on page 4. Good post. I spend most of my time on the diet boards not so much the training but definately agree. I just dont post cause all the info is there already. just gotta search. ^^^

TTORO

 

[40butpumpin]

Damn nice thread, I'm loving it. lol

 

[sucker for supplements]

good thread.

 

[Mr.Kachok]

nice thread, btw does HST training work well when cutting??

 

[Debaser]

Though I've never used it while cutting, I've heard it does work very well. So much so that people are reporting gains in weight with shrinking waist sizes.

 

[sk*]

nice thread, btw does HST training work well when cutting??

I imagine it wouldn't be bad for cutting as it has many sets and, therefore, you will burn more calories. Overtraining can become a problem on it though if your calories aren't high imo.

-sk

 

[Him1]

Ladies and gentlemen.... Doggcrapp has entered the building.