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Turinabol+ Anavar ULTIMATE STACK!

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Guvna said:
supression and "shut down" are basically the same thing. And even into the serum/plasma/ t level discussion to break it down it is moot. some guys can just have their t levels drop some without seriously impacting HTPA. most cant. Why spread advice that *most* cant follow?

SUPRESSION and SHUTDOWN are NOT the same at ALL. Pituitary/Testicular inhibtion is not the same as having reduced total T-concentrations.

Furthermore, Despite having a lowered natural TEST PRODUCTION, FREE test(plasma) levels counteract any possible sides-LIBIDO, MOOOD, ect. AND--recovery is swifter.

Tongkat Ali increases FREE Test by binging to SHBG as well--does tongkat cause GYNO? No..
 
Guvna said:
Thats a pretty weak study bro. There is a serious abscence of real world numbers.



Also, one could speculate that as one starts the cycle, the amount of free test becomes lessend. Tbol WILL supress test, and the more one is supressed (shut down) the less to total test there will be to free up.

You sound confrontational ...

But anyway...99% of the test in your body is UNUSABLE! It is BOUND TO SHBG. There WIL NEVER EVER EVER EVER be a shortage of BOUND test in the body..which is why REGARDLESS of decreased total T PRODUCTION, Free test levels Soar
 
cue the sudden, soon to be price rise in tbol thanks to everybody's big fucking mouth....


NOW


i know that we have loads of newbie users on the site, and it's all good really. but those of us who have been around for a while know one thing is certain: over the past 30 years or so, any steroid that has achieved popular status has always seen a concomitant rise in price.

you realize that the main distributor of BD products frequents this site yeah? the more posts like the ones in this thread the more likely we will see the price increase to meet the demand.

so, if you could all kindly SHUT YOUR FUCKING CAKE EATERS it would be well appreciated.

and you know what? while turinabol is a fantastic drug in it's own right, it will never, EVER replace the same proven mass builders that have been blowing bros up since way back.

like galaxy said, you don't see chad nichols recommending tbol do you?

give me test and arimidex and i will build far more quality mass than tbol could ever hope to produce, and with proper PCT i will keep it all.

if test were so dangerous and risky as Ross put it you wouldn't see it prescribed for HRT therapy in the most risky of all patients with regards to side effects- the geriatric sector.

in fact, several long term studies of testosterone administration have been carried out by respected administrations (try the New England Journal of Medicine) and the most severe side effects were acne and gyno, which can be easily treated and/or prevented by the educated user.
 
nishnish said:
cue the sudden, soon to be price rise in tbol thanks to everybody's big fucking mouth....


NOW


i know that we have loads of newbie users on the site, and it's all good really. but those of us who have been around for a while know one thing is certain: over the past 30 years or so, any steroid that has achieved popular status has always seen a concomitant rise in price.

you realize that the main distributor of BD products frequents this site yeah? the more posts like the ones in this thread the more likely we will see the price increase to meet the demand.

so, if you could all kindly SHUT YOUR FUCKING CAKE EATERS it would be well appreciated.

and you know what? while turinabol is a fantastic drug in it's own right, it will never, EVER replace the same proven mass builders that have been blowing bros up since way back.

like galaxy said, you don't see chad nichols recommending tbol do you?

give me test and arimidex and i will build far more quality mass than tbol could ever hope to produce, and with proper PCT i will keep it all.

if test were so dangerous and risky as Ross put it you wouldn't see it prescribed for HRT therapy in the most risky of all patients with regards to side effects- the geriatric sector.

in fact, several long term studies of testosterone administration have been carried out by respected administrations (try the New England Journal of Medicine) and the most severe side effects were acne and gyno, which can be easily treated and/or prevented by the educated user.


CHill out there buddy....

Everything will be fine
 
RossLovesMoney said:
You sound confrontational ...

But anyway...99% of the test in your body is UNUSABLE! It is BOUND TO SHBG. There WIL NEVER EVER EVER EVER be a shortage of BOUND test in the body..which is why REGARDLESS of decreased total T PRODUCTION, Free test levels Soar



I'm not trying to be. I apologize if I came off that way, but I am stating what I believe to be correct based on the information that I have read.


ANY drug (steroid) can cause gyno, hairloss, and shutdown. Period. It is nonsensical and misleading to state that it cant .



You say that there will never be a shortage of bound test in the body. That is true......if one is NOT on AAS. However, as we both know, total test ALWAYS declines with the introduction of exogenous androgen, while the degree is debatable. Test is also in the body a VERY short length of time. It will not have "plenty" of total test on 2 days worth of tren, I assure you.


If the body is only making 10% of the test it should be, and it still retains that 1% of it as free, you are still at 1/10 of the amount of test you started at. Then you introduce your test freeing drug. Total test goes down. % of free test rises. Where does that leave you? It may leave some in favorable conditions (higher than normal free T), but there is the distinct possibility that the user could be left with lower than baseline free T levels. Not something I am willing to risk.




In my opinion, I will take [the possibility of] a little bit of extra supression, as well as the chance of sides (as with ANY drug) to make absolutely sure that I have a favorable amount of T and enough to assure that my body has all it needs to complete other functions in which T assists.


Also, what about lipids?? 17aa's are FAR, FAR worse on your lipids that test and nandrolone. THAT is a side I dont like Long term, I dont give a shit about acne or hairloss, but I really cant do much if my heart is, well, busted.
 
Guvna said:
I'm not trying to be. I apologize if I came off that way, but I am stating what I believe to be correct based on the information that I have read.


ANY drug (steroid) can cause gyno, hairloss, and shutdown. Period. It is nonsensical and misleading to state that it cant .



You say that there will never be a shortage of bound test in the body. That is true......if one is NOT on AAS. However, as we both know, total test ALWAYS declines with the introduction of exogenous androgen, while the degree is debatable. Test is also in the body a VERY short length of time. It will not have "plenty" of total test on 2 days worth of tren, I assure you.


If the body is only making 10% of the test it should be, and it still retains that 1% of it as free, you are still at 1/10 of the amount of test you started at. Then you introduce your test freeing drug. Total test goes down. % of free test rises. Where does that leave you? It may leave some in favorable conditions (higher than normal free T), but there is the distinct possibility that the user could be left with lower than baseline free T levels. Not something I am willing to risk.




In my opinion, I will take [the possibility of] a little bit of extra supression, as well as the chance of sides (as with ANY drug) to make absolutely sure that I have a favorable amount of T and enough to assure that my body has all it needs to complete other functions in which T assists.


Also, what about lipids?? 17aa's are FAR, FAR worse on your lipids that test and nandrolone. THAT is a side I dont like Long term, I dont give a shit about acne or hairloss, but I really cant do much if my heart is, well, busted.

I am sorry, but you are wrong about a few things.

NON-Aromatizing steroids can NOT cause gyno. Not during post-cycle, never--period. (WITH the RARE exception in someone who had Pubetural gyno)
NOT ALL STEROIDS can cause hairloss and shutdown. In extremely sensitive individuals who are genetically predisposed, hairloss MAY occur from any androgen, but in general, the LIKLIHOOD of hairloss is MUCH greater wuth compounds like TEST, DBOL, and FINA, rather than tbol, var, and EQ.

SHUTDOWN (defined by COMPLETE PITUITARY AND TESTICULAR inhibition)only occurs with HIGHLY androgenic/Estrogenic compounds such as the PRIMARY sex hormone TESTOSTERONE , Anadrol, and its Progestenic brothers, Deca and Tren...Reduced Testosterone production will likely occur from any exogenous hormone being adminsitered.

Your body has enough BOUND test to last your body YEARS--without ANY test production. You will never "RUN OUT". I don't think you understand the role Sex hormone binding globulin plays in maintaining homestasis within the endocrine system.

Lipid profile can be improved DRASTICALLY by taking Nolvadex, which has been clinically demonstrated to do so.

And finally--it is SAFER for your body to be shutdown--than to be producing SUPRAPHYSIOLOGICAL doses of TEST. There is a reason the medical community uses Synthetic adndrogens over test.
 
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the synthetics used commonlly are nandrolone/anadrol/var/test.......anadrol for anemias (RBC production) nandrolone for cacexia (sp) becasue its more ANABOLIC and var as well as nand. Test isnt really administered in supraphysiological doses in clinical settings, just enough to get you what you need (200mg bi weekly).
 
bigrand said:
the synthetics used commonlly are nandrolone/anadrol/var/test.......anadrol for anemias (RBC production) nandrolone for cacexia (sp) becasue its more ANABOLIC and var as well as nand. Test isnt really administered in supraphysiological doses in clinical settings, just enough to get you what you need (200mg bi weekly).

ANY dose of TEST is a SUPRAPHSYIOLOGICAL DOSE--meaning, way beyond what the BODY NORMALLY PRODUCES, Even 200mgs WEEKLY is 10x more than you produce in a week. In clinical studies, only 25mgs ED resulted in complete PITUITARY/TESTICULAR inhibition(shutdown)...NOT supression.

Syhthetic androgens include Nandrolone, Oxandrolone, Turinabol, Winstrol, Methandrostenelone, Methenelone, and masteron.
Testosterone (and nandrolone)is being used as Male birth control. Just a thought.
 
This does sound good.

I don't uunderstand all the mumbo jumbo, but there is just ONE thing that bothers me about tbol. I have read a couple of times of some 30 year old guy who used tbol regularly, and I believe came up with some kind of cancer. I can't remember exactly what, if somebody knows, help me out.

Now, if this moron was on 20-40mg ED for half the year, then yes, I can understand that could cause problems. Perhaps he was simply prone to this disease and tbol exacerbated it. Perhaps he was gonna get cancer anyway?!?!I personally don't take orals beyond 2 weeks, it fits in with the theory of short cycles that works pretty well for me (2 on 4 off). But I'd simply like to know, if I take tbol at 40mg ED for 2 weeks, 7 times a year, for the next 10 years...

...What is going to happen? I don't think anyone can answer this here...somehow I'd feel safer taking 100mg prop eod for 2 weeks on 4 weeks off for the next 10 years, but who the hell knows? I am just slightly wary of the long term side effects of tbol, and possibly any other roid out there. But it's the risk we take, I guess.
 
Zircon said:
This does sound good.

I don't uunderstand all the mumbo jumbo, but there is just ONE thing that bothers me about tbol. I have read a couple of times of some 30 year old guy who used tbol regularly, and I believe came up with some kind of cancer. I can't remember exactly what, if somebody knows, help me out.

Now, if this moron was on 20-40mg ED for half the year, then yes, I can understand that could cause problems. Perhaps he was simply prone to this disease and tbol exacerbated it. Perhaps he was gonna get cancer anyway?!?!I personally don't take orals beyond 2 weeks, it fits in with the theory of short cycles that works pretty well for me (2 on 4 off). But I'd simply like to know, if I take tbol at 40mg ED for 2 weeks, 7 times a year, for the next 10 years...

...What is going to happen? I don't think anyone can answer this here...somehow I'd feel safer taking 100mg prop eod for 2 weeks on 4 weeks off for the next 10 years, but who the hell knows? I am just slightly wary of the long term side effects of tbol, and possibly any other roid out there. But it's the risk we take, I guess.

What kind of gains in strength or mass do you think you could possibly gain by taking either tbol or prop for 2 weeks on, 4 weeks off? You won't notice their effects until the second week, so how much can you gain in 1 week?
Whatever you gain, you will lose after the 4 week off period even with good pct.
 
Why would you lose everything after a 2 week cycle but keep something off an 8 week cycle?

There's no doubt, I am not suppressed much at all after 2 weeks on, 3 weeks off. In fact there seems to be an overcompensation in nat test levels returning after suppression of 2 weeks or so. I guess time will tell, although I know several people who have gained well off it, and take 3 months off, no problem at all.

Compared to most guys here who go on for 12 weeks and take 6 weeks off...no comparison...

BTW tren kicks in around day 4 strength wise, it's not wasted. Added to this I'm a cyclist/sprinter, so I think my goals are a bit diff from most BB'ers.
 
Zircon said:
This does sound good.

I don't uunderstand all the mumbo jumbo, but there is just ONE thing that bothers me about tbol. I have read a couple of times of some 30 year old guy who used tbol regularly, and I believe came up with some kind of cancer. I can't remember exactly what, if somebody knows, help me out..

it was testicular cancer after longterm use if I recall.
 
faaassst said:
If you're worried about hairloss Ross, why on earth would you consider using EQ???

EQ is pretty hairsafe for most. I'm prone to mpb and it was a-ok for me.

some have said they had a problem (very few) but I suspect they were getting low dose test and not eq.
 
yes testicular cancer, that's right.

What do you think of that? do you think its tbol specific, or any oral, or any steroid, or completely unrelated to AAS at all?

Almost impossible to say I guess. Esp if it was only one person.
 
I have not been here long and defiantly not as knowledgeable as most of you guy's and gal's but I want to say this , the best thread yet for me. This is the kind of stuff that makes this site rock... No BS
 
Greggorial said:
I have not been here long and defiantly not as knowledgeable as most of you guy's and gal's but I want to say this , the best thread yet for me. This is the kind of stuff that makes this site rock... No BS

WELL THANK YOU SIR!

Just spreadin the knowledge.

IN regards to TBOL safety issues--Jenepharm pulled TBOL years ago because one individual used 100-200mgs for years straight. Any steroids poses serious health risks at that dose and duration. Chlorodehydormethyltestosterone is no more toxic than any other compound,
 
RossLovesMoney said:
I am sorry, but you are wrong about a few things.

NON-Aromatizing steroids can NOT cause gyno. Not during post-cycle, never--period. (WITH the RARE exception in someone who had Pubetural gyno)
NOT ALL STEROIDS can cause hairloss and shutdown. In extremely sensitive individuals who are genetically predisposed, hairloss MAY occur from any androgen, but in general, the LIKLIHOOD of hairloss is MUCH greater wuth compounds like TEST, DBOL, and FINA, rather than tbol, var, and EQ.

SHUTDOWN (defined by COMPLETE PITUITARY AND TESTICULAR inhibition)only occurs with HIGHLY androgenic/Estrogenic compounds such as the PRIMARY sex hormone TESTOSTERONE , Anadrol, and its Progestenic brothers, Deca and Tren...Reduced Testosterone production will likely occur from any exogenous hormone being adminsitered.

Your body has enough BOUND test to last your body YEARS--without ANY test production. You will never "RUN OUT". I don't think you understand the role Sex hormone binding globulin plays in maintaining homestasis within the endocrine system.

Lipid profile can be improved DRASTICALLY by taking Nolvadex, which has been clinically demonstrated to do so.

And finally--it is SAFER for your body to be shutdown--than to be producing SUPRAPHYSIOLOGICAL doses of TEST. There is a reason the medical community uses Synthetic adndrogens over test.



Im sorry, I disagree on pretty much all accounts, for reasons that I have already explained. Except for the fact that nolva is good for lipids. It is decent, but iit certainly isnt magic. I also try to stay off of nolva as much as possible. I dont like the possible long term side effects of it. I just dont take 17AA's, period (well I did, but dont now).

I have PERSONALLY seen a guy get gyno from real var, as well as read about a few other cases of it. Can I still not change your mind about being able to get gyno from var? It is not directly caused by it, but it CAN happen.


And if total test can last for "years" in your system, why to guys constantly come back with PC blood tests of total T levels of < 100?
 
If you're over your genetic potential then no roid is going to give you 'keepable gains'' when you stop taking it, even if you're magically somehow not suppressed or shrunk, can we knock that bs on the head please. 2-6 months down the line it will all be gone.
 
Guvna said:
Im sorry, I disagree on pretty much all accounts, for reasons that I have already explained. Except for the fact that nolva is good for lipids. It is decent, but iit certainly isnt magic. I also try to stay off of nolva as much as possible. I dont like the possible long term side effects of it. I just dont take 17AA's, period (well I did, but dont now).

I have PERSONALLY seen a guy get gyno from real var, as well as read about a few other cases of it. Can I still not change your mind about being able to get gyno from var? It is not directly caused by it, but it CAN happen.


And if total test can last for "years" in your system, why to guys constantly come back with PC blood tests of total T levels of < 100?

Well, this ONE PERSON who got GYNO from VAR(????) is the rarest individual in the WORLD, AND HIS CASE MEANS NOTHING--has no relevance to any of us.

As for not using orals due to 17-AA--that is a shame. Hepatoxicity is somewhat overstated, and I think you should at least give var or tbol a try. You will be fine.

As for the BLOOD TESTS...there will never be a case when a man has ZERO protein-bound test levels. SHBG is always maintaining homesostasis within the endorcine system.

I enjoy your discourse..
 
RossLovesMoney said:
ANY dose of TEST is a SUPRAPHSYIOLOGICAL DOSE--meaning, way beyond what the BODY NORMALLY PRODUCES, Even 200mgs WEEKLY is 10x more than you produce in a week. In clinical studies, only 25mgs ED resulted in complete PITUITARY/TESTICULAR inhibition(shutdown)...NOT supression.

Syhthetic androgens include Nandrolone, Oxandrolone, Turinabol, Winstrol, Methandrostenelone, Methenelone, and masteron.
Testosterone (and nandrolone)is being used as Male birth control. Just a thought.


200mgs, counting esterweight of enth, is only about 2-5 times more than the body makes.


T is being used as birth control, but not to any large extent. I cant go get T to control my spermcount like a woman can get her birth control pills. T birt control is also probably the worst method of birth control in existance. It really doesnt work well...at all.
 
Guvna said:
200mgs, counting esterweight of enth, is only about 2-5 times more than the body makes.


T is being used as birth control, but not to any large extent. I cant go get T to control my spermcount like a woman can get her birth control pills. T birt control is also probably the worst method of birth control in existance. It really doesnt work well...at all.

Point is--ANY dose of EXOGENOUS TESTOSTEORNE--even 25mgs ED!-- Will cause COMPLETE pituitary/testucular inhibtion--this is NOT the case with other, more mild, less androgenic/estrogenic testosterone DERIVATIVES--Methenelone, Turinabol, Oxandrolone, Stanzalol.
 
RossLovesMoney said:
Well, this ONE PERSON who got GYNO from VAR(????) is the rarest individual in the WORLD, AND HIS CASE MEANS NOTHING--has no relevance to any of us.

As for not using orals due to 17-AA--that is a shame. Hepatoxicity is somewhat overstated, and I think you should at least give var or tbol a try. You will be fine.

As for the BLOOD TESTS...there will never be a case when a man has ZERO protein-bound test levels. SHBG is always maintaining homesostasis within the endorcine system.

I enjoy your discourse..


I have SEEN only one. I have read of others.


I agree hepatoxicity is way overstated. I am not worried about that though. I worry about my cholesterol. THAT is not overstated.

I have done var.


True, a man will probably never have zero total test, but if you can only increase the percentage of free test available with tbol, and your total T is very low, you have not accomplished anything. Ever though that it just may be the drug itself that increases your libido and makes you feel good, aside form the test-freeing theory you have?

Dbol did the same for me, and one of my good friends. I took it for two weeks alone before the test started up one time. Libido was way, way up, and so was my feeling of well-being. And my t-levels were most certainly supressed.




I would also like to see a study in which nolva "drastically" improves cholesterol. It does a significant amount, but nothing to write home about. T is most DEFINATELY the best drug for your lipids, and ill post up as many studies as you like to back this up (except for maybe a 2mg dose of furazabol ED). That alone makes it far more attractive that var and tbol, and especially winstrol (the worst drug for lipids).
 
So far from the posts I have read on here the people who have actually used Tbol really love it and claim good gains, in reality thats what were all looking for anyways along with minimal sides....basically best bang for the buck, with least sides....
 
Guvna said:
I have SEEN only one. I have read of others.


I agree hepatoxicity is way overstated. I am not worried about that though. I worry about my cholesterol. THAT is not overstated.

I have done var.


True, a man will probably never have zero total test, but if you can only increase the percentage of free test available with tbol, and your total T is very low, you have not accomplished anything. Ever though that it just may be the drug itself that increases your libido and makes you feel good, aside form the test-freeing theory you have?

Dbol did the same for me, and one of my good friends. I took it for two weeks alone before the test started up one time. Libido was way, way up, and so was my feeling of well-being. And my t-levels were most certainly supressed.

Well technically, ORAL-TURINABOL is simply a MODIFIED Testosterone molecule. It is a DESIGNER steroid developed by the east germans. CHLORODEHYDROMETHYLTESTOSTERONE is merely TEST that can not aromatize or convert to DHT. So besides inherently increasing free test levels, you now have essentially TEST(modified) circulaing througout your body--but it can NOT Metabololize, meaning, it can be used SOLEY for anabolism!(and things like libido, mood, appetite) Tbol is basically TEST--so of course tbol itself(TEST) causes libido increase.



I would also like to see a study in which nolva "drastically" improves cholesterol. It does a significant amount, but nothing to write home about. T is most DEFINATELY the best drug for your lipids, and ill post up as many studies as you like to back this up (except for maybe a 2mg dose of furazabol ED). That alone makes it far more attractive that var and tbol, and especially winstrol (the worst drug for lipids).

Well technically, ORAL-TURINABOL is simply a MODIFIED Testosterone molecule. It is a DESIGNER steroid developed by the east germans. CHLORODEHYDROMETHYLTESTOSTERONE is merely TEST that can not aromatize or convert to DHT. So besides inherently increasing free test levels, you now have essentially TEST(modified) circulaing througout your body--but it can NOT Metabololize, meaning, it can be used SOLEY for anabolism!(and things like libido, mood, appetite) Tbol is basically TEST--so of course tbol itself(TEST) causes libido increase.
 
RossLovesMoney said:
Point is--ANY dose of EXOGENOUS TESTOSTEORNE--even 25mgs ED!-- Will cause COMPLETE pituitary/testucular inhibtion--this is NOT the case with other, more mild, less androgenic/estrogenic testosterone DERIVATIVES--Methenelone, Turinabol, Oxandrolone, Stanzalol.


True, it is dose dependant. 25 mgs a day can still be 5 times more than your endogenous T. Shit, I grew off that. Not much, but I did. And I (personally) did not need nor use any PC, and kept all of my (small, but quality) gains.


While T is certainly more likey to produce faster and sometimes "harder" supression, the drugs listed above CAN do the same. It is very dose dependant. 2.5 mgs for var a day may not cause total HTPA supression, bu then again neither will 2.5 mgs of T. 25mgs may cause it ( I dont think it did on me, but I did not have blood tests, so that is speculative). However, 50-60 mgs of stan certainly has that same abilty, maybe even less.

and as for one of the injectables you like: EQ, that drug is highly androgenic (not as much as test or tren, but moreso than winstrol, primo, deca [though deca does cause supression via different mechanisms]. a decent dose of EQ , ~400mgs or over, will most definately cause total supression, and fast.
 
RossLovesMoney said:
Well technically, ORAL-TURINABOL is simply a MODIFIED Testosterone molecule. It is a DESIGNER steroid developed by the east germans. CHLORODEHYDROMETHYLTESTOSTERONE is merely TEST that can not aromatize or convert to DHT. So besides inherently increasing free test levels, you now have essentially TEST(modified) circulaing througout your body--but it can NOT Metabololize, meaning, it can be used SOLEY for anabolism!(and things like libido, mood, appetite) Tbol is basically TEST--so of course tbol itself(TEST) causes libido increase.


Im sorry, but this is 100% wrong.

test is test. Test is NOT methyltestosterone , or chlorodehydromethyltestosterone.

There are completely different animals.

A simple test to see if a drug is indeed testosterone: Take some, get T levels checked. If your total T levels went up, it is test, if not, it is not test.

MT has alomost zero anablosim, but by your rational, it should be very similar to test. It is not, at all.

MT and TBOL hardly have a thing in common with the molecule testosterone.
 
Guvna said:
Im sorry, but this is 100% wrong.

test is test. Test is NOT methyltestosterone , or chlorodehydromethyltestosterone.

There are completely different animals.

A simple test to see if a drug is indeed testosterone: Take some, get T levels checked. If your total T levels went up, it is test, if not, it is not test.

MT has alomost zero anablosim, but by your rational, it should be very similar to test. It is not, at all.

MT and TBOL hardly have a thing in common with the molecule testosterone.

WE ARE NOT CHANGING THE STRUCTURE--we are modifying its properties. Changing the structure--ie METHYLTEST(all methylated androgens) or adding an atom like DIABABOL converting into BOLDENON is different.

By ADDING a CHLORO mol at the 14th Position renders the testosterone molectule incapable of aromatization. Turinabol is NOT TEST. TEST IS THE TESTOSTERONE MOLECULE--TBOL IS A MODIFIED TEST MOLECULE. though it still shares the same STRUCTURE--this is chemistry.
 
Guvna said:
True, it is dose dependant. 25 mgs a day can still be 5 times more than your endogenous T. Shit, I grew off that. Not much, but I did. And I (personally) did not need nor use any PC, and kept all of my (small, but quality) gains.


While T is certainly more likey to produce faster and sometimes "harder" supression, the drugs listed above CAN do the same. It is very dose dependant. 2.5 mgs for var a day may not cause total HTPA supression, bu then again neither will 2.5 mgs of T. 25mgs may cause it ( I dont think it did on me, but I did not have blood tests, so that is speculative). However, 50-60 mgs of stan certainly has that same abilty, maybe even less.

and as for one of the injectables you like: EQ, that drug is highly androgenic (not as much as test or tren, but moreso than winstrol, primo, deca [though deca does cause supression via different mechanisms]. a decent dose of EQ , ~400mgs or over, will most definately cause total supression, and fast.

EQ, or BOLDENON, is approximately HALF as androgenic as test. This is a fact.

Secondly, yes, I SUPPOSE all androgens have the POTENTIAL to cause COMPLETE shutdown(Pituitary/testicular inhibition) BUT--the doses REQUIRED for that to happen are way more than I or you would use. For example, the normal TBOL dose is 50mgs--which will NOT cause SHUTDOWN. The normal test dose is at last 50-75mgs(prop) ED, which will cause COMPLETE SHUTDOWN.

I don't know what you are arguing?

TEST IS HARSH ON THE HPTA.
 
RossLovesMoney said:
By ADDING a CHLORO mol at the 14th Position renders the testosterone molectule incapable of aromatization. Turinabol is NOT TEST. TEST IS THE TESTOSTERONE MOLECULE--TBOL IS A MODIFIED TEST MOLECULE. though it still shares the same STRUCTURE--this is chemistry.


I understand that. However, it is also methylated, causing it to become an etirely different subastnce with different properties. Albiet, some are the same, with every drug, but most are different.
 
RossLovesMoney said:
WE ARE NOT CHANGING THE STRUCTURE--we are modifying its properties. Changing the structure--ie METHYLTEST(all methylated androgens) or adding an atom like DIABABOL converting into BOLDENON is different.



You cant modify properties without changing structure.
 
For the record, I do like how tbol looks on paper, and if I still did 17AA drugs, I would use it- probably over var and dbol. However, as it stands now, the lipid problems associated with 17aa's far outweigh the other, sometimes more prominent side effects of testosterone. They are also not nearly as easily controlled as Test's sides. Therefore, testosterone is a better option for me, personally.
 
Guvna said:
I understand that. However, it is also methylated, causing it to become an etirely different subastnce with different properties. Albiet, some are the same, with every drug, but most are different.

A Substance is methylated to aid in bioavailability--DEPENDING on what position the methylation is MADE, will determine if the properties change. (example, Methyltest is not methylated at the same pos. as Chlorodehydromethyltest. Same thing with 17-AA. Depending on the POSITION--ergo "superdrol".
 
Guvna said:
That tbol, ox, winstrol, and primo DO cause supression, and CAN cause complete supression, just like test.
In the DOSAGES USED BY BODYBUILDERS--TBOL, PRIMO, EQ, and VAR WILL NOT CAUSE SHUTDOWN! I use 50mg TBOL! That is not enough to shut anyone down. I use 30mgs VAR--NO SHUTDOWN.

AT ANY DOSAGE--even HRT--TEST WILL CAUSE COMPLETE SHUTDOWN.

CMon man, we all know test requires anti-E's and heavy ancillaries, and HCG, ect ect ect.

IT is SILLY to argue about these facts. Test is a GREAT MASS builder--but it has one of the HIGHEST side-effect profiles and is extremely harsh on the HPTA.
 
Guvna said:
For the record, I do like how tbol looks on paper, and if I still did 17AA drugs, I would use it- probably over var and dbol. However, as it stands now, the lipid problems associated with 17aa's far outweigh the other, sometimes more prominent side effects of testosterone. They are also not nearly as easily controlled as Test's sides. Therefore, testosterone is a better option for me, personally.


This thread is NOT about you. That is what it has turned into.

TEST is KING for mass. I can't argue that...

BUT--TEST is NOT KING OF SAFETY! And you can't argue that...

We all havce different goals and different bodies. There are tons of threads about test. This thread is about TBOL VAR. Speaking of which....

I am in day 5, muscles MUCH fuller, constantly pumped, and I am extremely HARD. Great Bicep workout last night, and I did low-intensity cardio this afternoon. I am eager to get in the gym again! SICK PUMPS!
 
BTW tren kicks in around day 4 strength wise, it's not wasted. Added to this I'm a cyclist/sprinter, so I think my goals are a bit diff from most BB'ers.[/QUOTE]

Do you compete? Tren stays detectable in the urine for 5 months after your last dose!
 
Zircon said:
Why would you lose everything after a 2 week cycle but keep something off an 8 week cycle?

It's not a question of how much you will lose, but rather how much you could possibly gain over a cycle as short as 2 weeks. If you're a cyclist/sprinter, I assume you want to increase your relative strength (strength to mass ratio).
How much strength do you think you could make over a 2 week period?
What kind of pct would you do after such a cycle?
 
RossLovesMoney said:
TEST is KING for mass. I can't argue that...

BUT--TEST is NOT KING OF SAFETY! And you can't argue that...

We all havce different goals and different bodies. There are tons of threads about test. This thread is about TBOL VAR. Speaking of which....



I believe test is safer. Maybe it has the possibility of more visible side effects, but it has has cholesterol issues and liver (but mostly cholesterol) that I am not willing to deal with (though test has both to a lesser degree). I can restore my htpa fairly easy, but it take much longer, and is much harder to get your cholesterol levels back. It only takes days for a 17AA to destroy cholesterol, and takes months to get it back. Two 8 week cycles per year along with 2 moths PC of very shitty lipid values for each is what I call a serious side effect, NOT gyno, hairloss, or acne.

The ONLY way I can see tbol being safer than test is in referrence to the prostate.


AND TBOL, AT 50MGS ED, CAN CAUSE TOTAL HTPA SUPRESSION IN SOME PEOPLE.
 
Guvna said:
I believe test is safer. Maybe it has the possibility of more visible side effects, but it has has cholesterol issues and liver (but mostly cholesterol) that I am not willing to deal with (though test has both to a lesser degree). I can restore my htpa fairly easy, but it take much longer, and is much harder to get your cholesterol levels back. It only takes days for a 17AA to destroy cholesterol, and takes months to get it back. Two 8 week cycles per year along with 2 moths PC of very shitty lipid values for each is what I call a serious side effect, NOT gyno, hairloss, or acne.

The ONLY way I can see tbol being safer than test is in referrence to the prostate.


AND TBOL, AT 50MGS ED, CAN CAUSE TOTAL HTPA SUPRESSION IN SOME PEOPLE.

THESE ARE ALL NEGATIVE EFFECTS of TESTOSTERONE--NOT TEST DERIVATIVES:



The action of testosterone can be in ways both beneficial and detrimental to the body. On the plus side, this hormone has a direct impact on the growth of muscle tissues, the production of red blood cells and overall well being of the organism. But it may also negatively effect the production of skin oils, growth of body, facial and scalp hair, and the level of both "good" and "bad" cholesterol in the body (among other things). In fact, men have a shorter average life span than women, which is believed to be largely due to the cardiovascular defects that this hormone may help bring about. Testosterone will also naturally convert to estrogen in the male body, a hormone with its own unique set of effects. As we have discussed earlier, raising the level of estrogen in men can increase the tendency to notice water retention, fat accumulation, and will often cause the development of female tissues in the breast (gynecomastia). Clearly we see that most of the "bad" side effects from steroids are simply those actions of testosterone that we are not looking for when taking a steroid. Raising the level of testosterone in the body will simply enhance both its good and bad properties, but for the most part we are not having "toxic° reactions to these drugs. A notable exception to this is the possibility of liver damage, which is a worry isolated to the use of c17-alpha alkylated oral steroids. Unless the athlete is taking anabolic/androgenic steroids abusively for a very long duration, side effects rarely amount to little more than a nuisance. One could actually make a case that periodic steroid use might even be a healthy practice. Clearly a person's physical shape can relate closely to one's overall health and well being. Provided some common sense is paid to health checkups, drug choice, dosage and off-time, how can we say for certain that the user is worse off for doing so? This position is of course very difficult to publicly justify with steroid use being so deeply stigmatized. Since this can be a very lengthy discussion, t will save the full health, moral and legal arguments for another time. For now I would like to run down the list of popularly discussed side effects, and include any current treatment/avoidance advice where possible.

Acne

Rampant acne is one of the more obvious indicators of steroid use. As you know, teenage boys generally endure periods of irritating acne as their testosterone levels begin to peak, but this generally subsides with age. But when taking anabolic/androgenic steroids, an adult will commonly be confronted with this same problem. This is because the sebaceous glands, which secrete oils in the skin, are stimulated by androgens. Increasing the level of such hormones in the skin may therefore enhance the output of oils, often causing acne to develop on the back, shoulders, and face. The use of strongly androgenic steroids in particular can be very troublesome, in some instances resulting in very unsightly blemishes all over the skin. To treat acne, the athlete has a number of options. The most obvious of course is to be very diligent with washing and topical treatments, so as to remove much of the dirt and oil before the pores become clogged. If this proves insufficient, the prescription acne drug Accutaine might be a good option. This is a very effective medication that acts on the sebaceous glands, reducing the level of oil secreted. The athlete could also take the ancillary drug Proscar®/Propecia® (finasteride) during steroid treatment, which reduces the conversion of testosterone into DHT, lowering the tendency for androgenic side effects with this hormone. It is of note however that this drug is more effective at warding off hair loss than acne, as it more specifically effects DHT conversion in the prostate and hair follicles. It is also important to note that testosterone is the only steroid that really converts to dihydrotestosterone, and only a few others actually convert to more potent steroids via the 5a-reductase enzyme at all. Many steroids are also potent androgens in their own right, such as Anadrol 50® and Dianabol for example. As such they can exert strong androgenic activity in target tissues without 5a-reduction to a more potent compound, which makes Propecia® useless. Of course one can also simply take those steroids (anabolics) that are less androgenic. For sensitive individuals attempting to build mass, nandrolone would therefore be a much better option than testosterone.

Aggression

Aggressive behaviour can be one of the scarier sides to steroid use. Men are typically more aggressive than women because of testosterone, and likewise the use of steroids (especially androgens) can increase a person's aggressive tendencies. In some instances this can be a benefit, helping the athlete hit the weights more intensely or perform better in a competition. Many professional power lifters and bodybuilders take a particular liking to this effect. But on the other hand there is nothing more unsettling than a grown man, bloated with muscle mass, who cannot control his temper. A steroid user who displays an uncontrollable rage is clearly a danger to himself and others. If an athlete is finding himself getting agitated at minor things during a steroid cycle, he should certainly find a means to keep this from getting out of hand. Remembering to take a couple of deep breaths at such times can Be very helpful. If such attempts prove to be ineffective, the offending steroids should be discontinued. The bottom line is that if you lack the maturity and self control to keep your anger in check, you should not be using steroids.

Anaphylactic Shock

Anaphylactic shock is an allergic reaction to the presence of a foreign protein in the body. It most commonly occurs when an individual has an allergy to things like a specific medication (such as penicillin), insect bites, industrial/household chemicals, foods (commonly nuts, shellfish, fruits) and food additives/preservatives (particularly sulfur). With this sometimes-fatal disorder the smooth muscles are stimulated to contract, which may restrict a person's breathing. Symptoms include wheezing, swelling, rash or hives, fever, a notable drop in blood pressure, dizziness, unconsciousness, convulsions or death. This reaction is not really seen with hormonal products like anabolic/androgenic steroids, but this may change with the rampant manufacture of counterfeit pharmaceuticals. Being that there are no quality controls for black market producers, toxins might indeed find their way into some preparations (particularly injectable compounds). My only advice would be to make every attempt to use only legitimately produced drug products, preferably of First World origin. When anaphylactic shock occurs, it is most commonly treated with an injection of epinephrine. Individuals very sensitive to certain insect bites are familiar with this procedure, many of who keep an allergy kit (for the self administration of epinephrine) close at hand.

Birth Defects

Anabolic/androgenic steroids can have a very pronounced impact on the development of an unborn fetus. Adrenal Genital Syndrome in particular is a very disturbing occurrence, in which a female fetus can develop male-like reproductive organs. Women who are, or plan to become pregnant soon, should never consider the use of anabolic steroids. It would also be the best advice to stay away from these drugs completely for a number of months prior to attempting the conception of a child, so as to ensure the mother has a normal hormonal chemistry. Although anabolic/androgenic steroids can reduce sperm count and male fertility, they are not linked to birth defects what taken by someone fathering a child.

Blood Clotting Changes

The use of anabolic/androgenic steroids is shown to increase prothrombin time, or the duration it will take for a blood clot to form. This basically means that while an individual is taking steroids, he/she may notice that it takes slightly longer than usual for a small cut or nosebleed to stop seeping blood. During the course of a normal day this is hardly cause for alarm, but it can lead to more serious trouble if a severe accident occurred, or an unexpected surgery was needed. Realistically the changes in clotting time are not extremely dramatic, so athletes are usually only concerned with this side effect if planning for a surgery. The clotting changes brought about by anabolic steroids are amplified with the use of medications like Aspirin, Tylenol and especially anticoagulants, so your doctor should be informed of their use (steroids) if undergoing any notable treatment with these types of drugs.

Cancer

Although it is a popular belief that steroids can give you cancer, this is actually a very rare phenomenon. Since anabolic/androgenic steroids are synthetic version of a natural hormone that your body can metabolize quite easily, they usually place a very low level of stress on the organs. In fact, many steroidal compounds are safe to administer to individuals with a diagnosed liver condition, with little adverse effect. The only real exception to this is with the use of C17 alpha alkylated compounds, which due to their chemical alteration are somewhat liver toxic. In a small number of cases (primarily with Anadrol 50®) this toxicity has lead to severe liver damage and subsequently cancer. But we are speaking of a statistically insignificant number in the face millions of athletes who use steroids. These cases also tended to be very ill patients, not athletes, who were using extremely large dosages for prolonged periods of time. Steroid opponents will sometimes point out the additional possibility of developing Wilm's Tumor from steroid abuse, which is a very serious form of kidney cancer. Such cases are so rare however, that no direct link between anabolic/androgenic steroid use and this disease has been conclusively established. Provided the athlete is not overly abusing methylated oral substances, and is visiting a doctor during heavier cycles, cancer should not be much of a concern.

Cardiovascular Disease

As mentioned earlier, the use of anabolic/androgenic steroids may have an impact on the level of LDL (low density lipoprotein), HDL (high density lipoprotein) and total cholesterol values. As you probably know, HDL is considered the "good" cholesterol since it can act to remove cholesterol deposits from the arteries. LDL has the opposite effect, aiding in the buildup of cholesterol on the artery walls. The general pattern seen with steroid use is a lowering of HDL concentrations, while total and LDL cholesterol numbers increase. The ratio of HDL to LDL values is usually more important than one's total cholesterol count, as these two substances seem to balance each other in the body. If these changes are exacerbated by the long-term use of steroidal compounds, it can clearly be detrimental to the cardiovascular system. This may be additionally heightened by a rise in blood pressure, which is common with the use of strongly aromatizable compounds.

It is also important to note that due to their structure and form of administration, most 17 alpha alkylated oral steroids have a much stronger negative impact on these levels compared to injectable steroids. Using a milder drug like Winstrol® (stanozolol), in hopes HDL level changes will also be mild, may therefore not turn out to be the best option. One study comparing the effect of a weekly injection of 200mg testosterone enanthate vs. only a 6mg daily oral dose of Winstrol® makes this very clear". After only six weeks, stanozolol was shown to reduce HDL and HDL-2 (good) cholesterol by an average of 33% and 71% respectively. The HDL reduction (HDL-3 subfraction) with the testosterone group was only an average of 9%. LDL (bad) cholesterol also rose 29% with stanozolol, while it actually dropped 16% with the use of testosterone. Those concerned with cholesterol changes during steroid use may likewise wish to avoid oral steroids, and opt for the use of injectable compounds exclusively. We also must note that estrogens generally have a favorable impact on cholesterol profiles. Estrogen replacement therapy in postmenopausal women for example is regularly linked to a rise in HDL cholesterol and a reduction in LDL values. Likewise the aromatization of testosterone to estradiol may be beneficial in preventing a more dramatic change in serum cholesterol due to the presence of the hormone. A recent study investigated just this question by comparing the effects of testosterone alone (280 mg testosterone enanthate weekly), vs. the same dose combined with an aromatase inhibitor (250mg testolactone 4 times daily)42. Methyltestosterone was also tested in third group, at a dose of 20mg daily. The results were quite enlightening. The group using only testosterone enanthate showed no significant decrease in HDL cholesterol values over the course of the 12 week study. After only four weeks the group using testosterone plus an aromatase inhibitor displayed a reduction of 25% on average. The methyltestosterone group noted an HDL reduction of 35% by this point, and also noted an unfavourable rise in LDL cholesterol. This clearly should make us think a little more closely about estrogen maintenance during steroid therapy. Aside from deciding whether or not it is actually necessary in any given circumstance, drug choice may also be an important consideration. For example, the estrogen receptor antagonist Nolvadex® does not seem to exhibit ant estrogenic effects on cholesterol values, and in fact often raises HDL levels. Using this to combat the side effects of estrogen instead of an aromatase inhibitor such as Arimidex® or Cytadren® may therefore be a good idea, particularly for those who are using steroids for longer periods of time. Since heart disease is one of the top killers worldwide, steroid using athletes (particularly older individuals) should not ignore these risks. If nothing else it is a very good idea to have your blood pressure and cholesterol values measured during each heavy cycle, being sure to discontinue the drugs should a problem become evident. It is also advisable to limit the intake of foods high in saturated fats and cholesterol, which should help minimize the impact of steroid treatment. Since blood pressure and cholesterol levels will usually revert back to their pre-treated norms soon after steroids are withdrawn, long-term damage is not a common worry.

Depression

Steroid use will obviously have an impact on hormone levels in the body, which in turn may result in a change in one's general disposition or mood. On the one hand we might see very aggressive behaviour, but the other extreme of depression also exists. Depression usually occurs at times when an individual's androgen/estrogen levels are significantly off balance. This is most common with male bodybuilders, at times when anabolic/androgenic steroids are discontinued. During this period estrogen levels may be markedly elevated (from the aromatization of steroids), which is often coupled with a deeply suppressed endogenous testosterone level. Once the steroids are no longer present in the body, the athlete may suffer with a low androgen level until the body catches up. Depression may also occur during the course of a steroid cycle, particularly with the sole use of anabolics. Although these compounds are mild in comparison to androgens, many can still suppress the endogenous Production of testosterone. If the testosterone level drops significantly during treatment, the administered anabolics may not provide enough of an androgen level to compensate, and a marked loss of motivation and sense of well-being may result. The best advice when looking to avoid cycle or post-cycle depression is to closely monitor drug intake and withdrawal. The use of a small weekly testosterone dose might prove very effective if added to a mild dieting/anabolic cycle, warding off feelings of boredom and apathy to training. And of course a strong steroid cycle should always be discontinued with the proper use of ancillary drugs (Nolvadex®, Arimidex®, HCG, Clomid® etc.). Although tapering schedules are very common, they are not an effective way to restore endogenous testosterone levels.

Gynecomastia

Gynecomastia is the medical term for the development of female breast tissues in the male body. This occurs when the male is presented with unusually high level of estrogen, particularly with the use of strong aromatizing androgens such as testosterone and Dianabol. The excess estrogen can act upon receptors in the breast and stimulate the growth of mammary tissues. If left unchecked this can lead to an actual obvious and unsightly tissue growth under the nipple area, in many cases taking on a very feminine appearance. To fight this side effect during steroid therapy, many find it necessary the use some form of estrogen maintenance medication. This includes an estrogen antagonist such as Clomid® or Nolvadex®, which blocks estrogen from attaching to and activating receptors in the breast and other tissues, or an aromatase inhibitor such as Proviron®, Cytadren® or Arimidex©, which blocks the enzyme responsible for the conversion of androgens to estrogens. Arimidex® is currently the most effective option, but is also the most costly.

It is worth noting however, that many believe a slightly elevated estrogen level may help the athlete achieve a more pronounced muscle mass gain during a cycle (see: Estrogen Aromatization). With this in mind many athletes decide to use antiestrogens only when it is necessary to block gynecomastia. It is of course still a good idea to always keep an antiestrogen on-hand when administering an aromatizable steroid, so that it is readily accessible should trouble become evident. Puffiness or swelling under the nipple is one of the first signs of pending gynecomastia, which is often accompanied by pain or soreness in this region (an effect termed gynecodynea). This is a clear indicator that some type of antiestrogen is needed. If the swelling progresses into small, marble like lumps, action absolutely must be taken immediately to treat it. Otherwise if the steroids are continued at this point without ancillary drug use, the user will likely be stuck with unsightly tissue growth that can only be removed with a surgical procedure.

It is also important to mention that progestins seem to augment the stimulatory effect of estrogens on mammary tissue growth. There appears to be a strong synergy between these two hormones here, such that gynecomastia might even be able to occur with the help of progestins, without excessive estrogen levels being necessary. Since many anabolic steroids, particularly those derived from nandrolone, are known to have progestational activity, we must not be lulled into a false sense of security. Even a low estrogen producer like Deca can potentially cause gyno in certain cases, again fostering the need to keep anti-estrogens close at hand if you are very sensitive to this side effect.

Hair loss

The use of highly androgenic steroids can negatively impact the growth of scalp hair. In fact the most common form of male pattern hair loss is directly linked to the level of androgens in such tissues, most specifically the stronger DHT metabolite of testosterone. The technical term for this type of hair loss is androgenetic alopecia, which refers to the interplay of both the male androgenic hormones and a genetic predisposition in bringing about this condition. Those who suffer from this disorder are shown to posses finer hair follicles and higher levels of DHT in comparison to a normal, hairy scalp. But since there is a genetic factor involved, many individuals will not ever see signs of this side-effect, even with very heavy steroid use. Clearly those individuals who are suffering from (or have a familial predisposition for) this type of hair loss should be very cautious when using the stronger drugs like testosterone, Anadrol 50®, Halotestin® and Dianabol.

In many instances the renewal of lost hair can be very difficult, so avoiding this side effect before it occurs is the best advice. For those who need to worry, the decision should probably be made to either stick with the milder substances (Deca-Durabolin® most favoured), or to use the ancillary drug Propecia®/Proscar® (finasteride) when taking testosterone, methyltestosterone or Halotestin. Propecia® is a very effective hair loss medication, which inhibits the 5-alpha reductase enzyme specifically in the hair follicles and prostate. This item offers us little benefit with drugs that are highly androgenic without 5alpha reduction however, the most notable offenders being Anadrol 50® and Dianabol. We must also remember also that all anabolic/androgenic steroids activate the androgen receptor, and can likewise all promote hair loss given the right dosage and conditions.

Headaches

Athletes sometimes report an increased frequency of headaches when using anabolic/androgenic steroids. This seems to be most common during heavier bulking cycles, when an individual is utilizing strongly estrogenic compounds. One should not simply take an aspirin and ignore this problem, as it is may indicate a more troubling side effect of steroid use, high blood pressure. Since high blood pressure invites with it a number of unwanted health risks, monitoring it on a regular schedule is important during heavy steroid use, especially if the individual is experiencing headaches. Some athletes choose to lower their blood pressure in such cases with a prescription medication like Catapres, but most find this an appropriate time to discontinue steroid use. Milder anabolics, which generally display little or no ability to convert to estrogen, are also more acceptable options for individuals sensitive to blood pressure increases. Less seriously, many headaches are due to simple strain on the neck and scalp muscles. The athlete may be lifting with much more intensity during a steroid cycle, and as a result may place added strain on these muscles. In this case a short break from training, and general rest, will often take care of the problem. Of course if anyone is experiencing a very serious or persistent headache, a visit to the doctor may be in order.

High Blood Pressure/Hypertension

Athletes using anabolic/androgenic steroids will commonly notice a rise in blood pressure during treatment. High blood pressure is most often associated with the use of steroids that have a high tendency for estrogen conversion, such as testosterone and Dianabol. As estrogen builds in the body, the level of water and salt retention will typically elevate (which will increase blood pressure). This may be further amplified by the added stress of intense weight training and rapid weight gain. Since hypertension (high blood pressure) can place a great deal of stress on the body, this side effect should not be ignored. If it is left untreated, high blood pressure can increase the likelihood for heart disease, stroke or kidney failure. Warning signs that one may be suffering from hypertension include an increased tendency to develop headaches, insomnia or breathing difficulties. In many instances these symptoms do not become evident until BP is seriously elevated, so a lack of these signs is no guarantee that the user is safe. Obtaining your blood pressure reading is a very quick and easy procedure (either at a doctors office, pharmacy or home); steroid-using athletes should certainly be monitoring BP values during stronger cycles so as to avoid potential problems.

If an individual's blood pressure values are becoming notably elevated, some action should/must be taken to control it. The most obvious is to avoid the continued use of the offending steroids, or at least to substitute them with milder, non-aromatizing compounds. It is also of note that although aromatizing steroids are typically involved, nonaromatizing androgens like Halotestin® or trenbolone are occasionally also been linked to high blood pressure, so these are perhaps not the ideal alternatives in such a situation. The athlete also has the option of seeking the benefit of high blood pressure medications such as diuretics, which can dramatically lower water and salt retention. Catapres (clonidine HCL) is also a popular medication among athletes, because in addition to its blood pressure lowering properties it has also been documented to raise the body's output of growth hormone.

Immune System Changes

The use of anabolic/androgenic steroids has been shown to produce changes in the body that may impact an individual's immune system. These changes however can be both good and bad for the user. During steroid treatment for instance, many athletes find they are less susceptible to viral illnesses. New studies involving the use of compounds like oxandrolone and Deca-Durabolin® with HIV+ patients seem to back up this claim, clearly showing that these drugs can have a beneficial effect on the immune system. Such therapies are in fact catching on in recent years, and many doctors are now less reluctant to prescribe these drugs to their ill patients. But just as a person may be less apt to notice illness during steroid treatment, the discontinuance of steroids can produce a rebound effect in which the immune system is less able to fight off pathogens. This most likely coincides with the rebound activity/production of cortisol, a catabolic hormone in the body, which may act to suppress immune system functioning. When the administered steroids are withdrawn, an androgen deficient state is often endured until the body is able to rebalance hormone production. Since testosterone and cortisol seem counter each other's activity in many ways, the absence of a normal androgen level may place cortisol in an unusually active state. During this period of imbalance, cortisol will not only be stripping the body of muscle mass, but it may also cause the athlete to be more susceptible to colds, flu etc. The proper use of ancillary drugs (antiestrogens, testosterone stimulating drugs) is the most common suggestion for helping to avoid this problem, which will hopefully allow the user to restore a proper balance of hormones once the steroids are removed.

We also cannot ignore the other-hand possibility that steroids could actually increase cortisol levels in the body during treatment. Termed hypercortisolemia, this effect is a common occurrence with anabolic/androgenic steroid therapy. This is because anabolic/androgenic steroids may interfere with the ability for the body to clear corticosteroids from circulation, due to the fact that in their respective pathways of metabolism these hormones share certain enzymes. When overloaded with androgens competing for the same enzymes cortisol may be broken down at a slower rate, and levels of this hormone will in turn begin build. Due to their strong tendency to inhibit the activity of the 3beta hydroxysteroid dehydrogenase enzyme, oral c17 alpha alkylated orals may be particularly troublesome in regards to elevated cortisol levels, as again this is a common pathway for corticosteroid metabolism. Though an elevated cortisol level is not a common concern during most typical steroid cycles, problems can certainly become evident when these drugs are used at very high doses or for prolonged periods of time. This of course may lead to the athlete becoming "run-down" and more susceptible to illness, as well as foster a more over-trained and static (less anabolic) state of metabolism.

Kidney Stress/Damage

Since your kidneys are involved in the filtration and removal of byproducts from the body, the administration of steroidal compounds (which are largely excreted in the urine) may cause them some level of strain. Actual kidney damage is most likely to occur when the steroid user is suffering from severe high blood pressure, as this state can place an undue amount of stress on these organs. There is actually some evidence to suggest that steroid use can be linked to the onset of Wilm's Tumor in adults, which is a rapidly growing kidney tumor normally seen in children and infants. Such cases are so rare however, that no conclusive link has been established. Obviously the kidneys are vital to one's heath, so the possibility of any kind of damage (although low) should not be ignored during heavy steroid treatment. If the user is noticing a darkening of color (in some cases a distinguishable amount of blood), or pain/difficulty when urinating, kidneys strain might be a legitimate concern. Other warning signs include pain in the lower back (particularly in the kidney areas), fever and edema (swelling). If organ damage is feared, the administered steroidal compounds should be discontinued immediately, and the doctor paid a visit to rule out any serious trouble. Since kidney stress/damage is generally associated with the use of stronger aromatizing compounds such as testosterone and Dianabol (which often raise blood pressure), individuals sensitive to high blood pressure/kidney stress should such compounds until health concerns are safely avoided. If steroid use is still necessitated by the individual, it may be a good idea to avoid the stronger compounds and opt for one of the milder anabolics. Primobolan®, Anavar and Winstrol® for example do not convert to estrogen at all, and likewise may be acceptable options. Also favorable drugs in this regard are Deca-Durabolin® and Equipoise, which have only a low tendency to convert to estrogen.

Liver Stress/Damage

Liver stress/damage is not a side effect of steroid use in general, but is specifically associated with the use of c17 alpha alkylated compounds. As mentioned earlier, these structures contain chemical alterations that enable them to be administered orally. In surviving a first pass by the liver, these compounds place some level of stress on the organ. in some instances this has led to severe damage, even fatal liver cancer. The disease peliosis hepatitis is one worry, which is an often life threatening condition where the liver develops blood filled cysts. Liver cancer (hepatic carcinoma) has also been noted in certain cases. While these very serious complications have occurred on certain occasions where liver-toxic compounds were prescribed for extended periods, it is important to stress however that this is not very common with steroid using athletes. Most of the documented cases of liver cancer have in fact been in clinical situations, particularly with the use of the powerful oral androgen Anadrol 50® (oxymetholone). This may be directly related to the high dosage of this preparation, as Anadrol 50® contains a whopping 50mg of active steroid per tablet. This is a considerable jump from other oral preparations, most of which contain 5mg or less of a substance. With one Anadrol 50® tablet, the liver will therefore have to process (roughly) the equivalent of 10 Dianabol tablets. This obvious stress is further amplified when we look at the unusually high dosage schedule for ill patients receiving this medication. With Anadrol 50®, the manufacturer's recommendations may call for the use of as many as 8 or 10 tablets daily. This is of course a far greater amount than most athletes would ever think of consuming, with three or four tablets per day being considered the upper limit of safety. It is also important to note that the actual number of cases involving liver damage have been few, and have not been a significant enough of a problem to warrant discontinuing this compound. Methyltestosterone, this first steroid shown to cause liver trouble, is also still available as a prescription drug in this country. The average recreational steroid user who takes toxic orals at moderate dosages for relatively short periods is therefore very unlikely to face devastating liver damage.

Although severe liver damage may occur before the onset of noticeable symptoms, it is most common to notice jaundice during the early stages of such injury. Jaundice is characterized by the buildup of bilirubin in the body, which in this case will usually result from the obstruction of bile ducts in the liver. The individual will typically notice a yellowing of the skin and eye whites as this colored substance builds in the body tissues, which is a clear sign to terminate the use of any c17 alpha alkylated steroids. In most instances the immediate withdrawal of these compounds is sufficient to reverse and prevent any further damage. Of course the athlete should avoid using orals for an extended period of time, if not indefinitely, should jaundice occur repeatedly during treatment. It is also a good idea to visit your physician during oral treatment in order to monitor liver enzyme values. Since liver stress will be reflected in your enzyme counts well before jaundice is noticed, this can remove much of the worry with oral steroid treatment.

Prostate Enlargement

Prostate cancer is currently one of the most common forms of cancer in males. Benign prostate enlargement (a swelling of prostate tissues often interfering with urine flow) can precede/coincide this cancer, and is clearly an important medical concern for men who are aging. Prostate complications are believed to be primarily dependent on androgenic hormones, particularly the strong testosterone metabolite DHT in normal situations, much in the same way estrogen is linked to breast cancer in women. Although the connection between prostate enlargement/cancer and steroid use is not fully established, the use of steroids may theoretically aggravate such conditions by raising the level of androgens in the body. It is therefore a good idea for older athletes to limit/avoid the intake of strong 5-alpha reducible androgens like testosterone, methyltestosterone and Halotestin, or otherwise use Proscar® (finasteride), which was specifically designed to inhibit the 5-alpha reductase enzyme in scalp and prostate tissues. This may be an effective preventative measure for older athletes who insist on using these compounds. Drugs like Dianabol, Anadrol 50® and Proviron, which do not convert to DHT yet are still potent androgens, are not effected by its use however. It is also important to mention that not only androgens but also estrogens are necessary for the advancement of this condition. It appears that the two work synergistically to stimulate benign prostatic growth, such that one without the other would not be enough to cause it. It has therefore been suggested that non-aromatizable compounds may be better options for older men looking for androgen replacement than lowering androgenic activity in the prostate. It is easier to accomplish, and should be accompanied with less side effects. It would also be very sound advice, regardless of steroid use, for individuals over 40 to have a physician check the prostate on somewhat of a regular basis.

Sexual Dysfunction

The functioning of the male reproductive system depends greatly on the level of androgenic hormones in the body. The use of synthetic male hormones may therefore have a dramatic impact on an individual's sexual wellness. On one extreme we may see a man's libido and erection frequency become extremely heightened. This is most commonly seen with the use of strongly androgenic steroids, which seem to have the most dramatic stimulating impact on this system. In some instances this can reach the point of becoming a problem, although more often than not the athlete is simply much more active and aggressive sexually during the intake of steroids.

On the other extreme we may also see a lack of sexual interest, possibly to the point of impotency. This occurs mainly when androgenic hormones are at a very low. This will often happen after a steroid cycle is discontinued, as the endogenous production of testosterone is commonly suppressed during the cycle. Removing the androgen (from an outside source) leaves the body with little natural testosterone until this imbalance is corrected. The loss of its' metabolite DHT is particularly troubling, as this hormone may have a strong affect on the reproductive system that may not be apparent with other less androgenic hormones. It is therefore a very good idea to use testosterone-stimulating drugs like HCG and/or Clomid®/Nolvadex® when coming off of a strong cycle, so as to reduce the impact of steroid withdrawal. Impotency/sexual apathy may also occur during the course of a steroid cycle, particularly when it is based strictly on anabolic compounds. Since all "anabolics" can suppress the manufacture of testosterone in the body, the administered drugs may not be androgenic enough to properly compensate for the testosterone loss. In such a case the user might opt to include a small androgen dosage (perhaps a weekly testosterone injection), or again to reverse/prevent the androgen suppression with the use of medications like Clomid® or HCG.

It is also interesting to note that it is not always simply an androgen vs. anabolic issue. People will often respond very differently to an equal dose of the same drug. While one individual may notice sexual disinterest or impotency, another may become extremely aggressive. It is therefore difficult to predict how someone will react to a particular drug before having used it.

Stunted Growth

Many anabolic/androgenic steroids have the potential to impact an individual's stature if taken during adolescence. Specifically, steroids can stunt growth by stimulating the epiphyseal plates in a person's long bones to prematurely fuse. Once these plates are fused, future liner growth is not possible. Even if the individual avoids steroid use subsequently, the damage is irreversible and he/she can be stuck at the same height forever. Not even the use of growth hormone can reverse this, as this powerful hormone can only thicken bones when used during adulthood. Interestingly enough it is not the steroids themselves, but the buildup of estrogen that causes the epiphyseal plates to fuse. Women are shorter than men on average because of this effect of estrogen, and likewise the use of steroids that readily convert to estrogen can prematurely suppress/halt a person's growth. In fact, the use of steroids like Anavar, Winstrol® and Primobolan® (which do not convert to estrogen) can actually increase one's height if taken during adolescence, as their anabolic effects will promote the retention of calcium in the bones. This would also hold true for non-aromatizing androgens such as trenbolone, Proviron® and Halotestin®. It is of course still good common sense to advise adolescents to avoid steroid use, at least until their bodies are fully mature and steroid use will have a less dramatic impact.

Testicular Atrophy

The human body always prefers to remain in a very balanced hormonal state, a tendency known as homeostasis. When the administration of androgens from an outside source causes a surplus of hormone, it will cause the body to stop manufacturing its own testosterone. Specifically this happens via a feedback mechanism, where the hypothalamus detects a high level of sex steroids (including androgens, progestins and estrogens) and shuts off the release of GnRH (Gonadotropin Releasing Hormone, formerly referred to as luteinizing hormone releasing hormone). This in turn causes the pituitary to stop releasing luteinizing hormone and FSH (follicle stimulating hormone), the two hormones (primarily LH) that stimulate the Leydig's cells in the testes to release testosterone (negative feedback inhibition has been demonstrated at the pituitary level as well). Without stimulation by LH and FSH the testes will be in a state of production limbo, and may shrink from inactivity. In extreme cases the steroid user can notice testicles that are unusually and frighteningly small. This effect is temporary however, and once the drugs are removed (and hormone levels rebalance) the testicles should return to their original size. Many regular steroid users find this side effect quite troubling, and use ancillary drugs like Clomid®/Nolvadex® or HCG during a steroid cycle in order to try to maintain testicular activity (and size) during treatment. The more estrogenic androgens (testosterone, Anadrol 50® and Dianabol) are of course most dramatic in this regard, and are therefore poor choices for individuals who seriously want to avoid testicle shrinkage. Non-aromatizing anabolics would be a better option, however be warned that all steroids should have an impact on the production of testosterone if taken at an anabolically effective dosage (yes, even Anavar and Primobolan®).

Water and Salt Retention

Many anabolic/androgenic steroids can increase the amount of water and sodium stored in body tissues. In some instances steroid induced water retention can bring about a very bloated appearance to the body (hands, arms, face etc.), which will also reduce the visibility of muscle features (loss of definition). Athletes often ignore this side effect, particularly during bulking cycles when the excess water stored in the muscles, joints and connective tissues will help to improve an individual's overall strength. With the use of many strong androgens, water retention can account for much of the initial strength and body weight gain during steroid treatment, with "water-weight' sometimes amounting to ten or more pounds. Although water retention may not be the most unwelcome side effect during a bulking cycle (greater strength and mass), it can lead to dangerous problems such as high blood pressure and kidney damage. The body is clearly under more strain when dealing with an unusually high level of water, so athletes should not simply ignore this. Water retention is most specifically associated with the presence of estrogen in the body, and is therefore common with the use of aromatizing compounds (such as testosterone and Dianabol). If water retention becomes an obvious problem during a cycle, the use of an antiestrogen (Nolvadex®, Proviron®) may help minimize it. The antiaromatase Arimidex® is in fact the most effective option, which inhibits the conversion of testosterone to estrogen. Sometimes the athlete will alternately option for a diuretic, which can rapidly shed the water so as to achieve a more comfortable/attractive physique in a very short time. This is a common practice when preparing for a competition, as diuretic use allows the user a great level of control over water stores. Of course discontinuing the offending compounds, or substituting them with a milder anabolic would be the simplest option for recreational steroid users.

Virilization

Since anabolic/androgenic steroids are synthetic male hormones, they can produce a number of undesirable changes when introduced into the female body. This includes the possibility of "virilization", which refers to the tendency for women to develop masculine characteristics when taking these drugs. Virilization symptoms include a deepening or hoarseness of the voice, changes in skin texture, acne, menstrual irregularities, increased libido, hair loss (scalp), body/facial/pubic hair growth and an enlargement of the clitoris. In extreme cases the female genitalia can become very disfigured, and may actually take on a penis-like appearance. Women must clearly be very careful when considering the use of steroids, especially since most virilization symptoms are irreversible. The stronger androgenic compounds should obviously be off-limits, with cautious female athletes restricting themselves to the use of only mild anabolics such as Winstrol®, Primobolan®, Anavar and Durabolin® (the shorter acting nandrolone). Nandrolone is actually the preferred hormone, as it displays the lowest level of androgenic to anabolic activity. Since even these milder anabolics have the potential to cause problems however, users should additionally remember to be conservative with drug dosages and duration of intake. After each cycle of course a notable break from treatment would be a good idea as well, so that the body has sufficient time to reestablish a hormonal balance.
 
"Originally Posted by Guvna
You cant modify properties without changing structure."


RossLovesMoney said:
hmmm....Go back to chemistry class....

lol...:)

Not true.....


I have taken plenty of chem classes, believe me on that.


Tell me, in referrence to only BBing drugs, how can you possibly change the properties of the drug without changing the overall structure of the entire molecule?
 
Ok, test can cause those things, but you dont think tbol could do all of that as well, excluding perhaps prostate problems and aggression (though I think aggression is mainly BS)?
 
Guvna said:
Ok, test can cause those things, but you dont think tbol could do all of that as well, excluding perhaps prostate problems and aggression (though I think aggression is mainly BS)?
Any futher personal discussion between you and I should be in PMS....taking up forum space.
 
RossLovesMoney said:
ANY dose of TEST is a SUPRAPHSYIOLOGICAL DOSE--meaning, way beyond what the BODY NORMALLY PRODUCES, Even 200mgs WEEKLY is 10x more than you produce in a week. In clinical studies, only 25mgs ED resulted in complete PITUITARY/TESTICULAR inhibition(shutdown)...NOT supression.

Syhthetic androgens include Nandrolone, Oxandrolone, Turinabol, Winstrol, Methandrostenelone, Methenelone, and masteron.
Testosterone (and nandrolone)is being used as Male birth control. Just a thought.


theraputic test isnt given weekly, its bi weekly or monthly at only a cc per. The synthetics i listed are the ones used in clinical settings. You wont see tbol, winstrol, dbol, primo, and masteron being used medicinally (stanazolol was used, but rarely today with the coming of oxandrolone).

To clarify on this and another thread, give me the definitions of shutdown VS supression with studies cited........Im not saying i dissagree with you, you seem quite educated in this subject, but your other thread totally knocks test around like a redheaded stepchild. Sure there are less supressive compounds but for size, its great and can be recovered from without problems. But to keep saying not to use test, only compounds like tbol and var is bad advice in a steroid forum.

Are you a student? have a degree in biochem or something? Just curious because im a student.
 
Although I did get side-tracked, my main point of this thread remains:

AAS, including stanozolol, boldenone, and even the great tbol can cause total HTPA supression is SOME (!!!) people. Saying it "can't" is an incorrect statement.


Also, Tbol, along with all other AAS CAN cause hairloss, acne, and yes even gyno. Saying it "can't" is an incorrect statement.
 
Guvna said:
Although I did get side-tracked, my main point of this thread remains:

AAS, including stanozolol, boldenone, and even the great tbol can cause total HTPA supression is SOME (!!!) people. Saying it "can't" is an incorrect statement.


Also, Tbol, along with all other AAS CAN cause hairloss, acne, and yes even gyno. Saying it "can't" is an incorrect statement.
IN SOME?!?! WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT?! IN the REAL world, a normal guy taking 30mgs of VAR WILL NOT BE COMPLETELY SHUTDOWN. If a normal guy is on 40-50mgs tbol, HE WILL NOT BE COMPLETELY SHUTDOWN. Same for winny, PRIMO, and EQ. THIS IS IMPORTANT--as THIS WILL DETERMINE HOW MUCH OF YOUR GAINS YOU WILL KEEP! AND for those who want to have PERMENENT gains, they will NEED TO USE a steroid that has MINIMAL IMPACT ON THE HPTA, so that PCT can be a period of continued PROGRESS.

I REPEAT--Being SUPRESSED rather than being SHUTDOWN--is what has enabled me to STACK ON SLABS of lean mass and keep EVERY POUND of it! My gains have been slow (compared to TEST,DROL,DECA,DBOL), but UTTER QUALITY. NON-Aromatzing steroids......

We all have different goals..
 
I am 5''10, 205lbs, 7%BF. Picture on Avatar is PRE-Tbol/Var cycle...can't wait to see what I will look like in 8 weeks....:) :)
 
bigrand said:
how old? What kind of modeling...im guessing fitness mag stuff?

I should be having some major appearances shortly if all goes as planned...!! Fitness mags, muscle mags...just nothing like FLEX...lol....Remember, I am 205lbs, 7%BF---not 305, 3%.
 
Eurycoma Longfolia(Tongkat ALi) Extract ........im unfamiliar with this herbal......purpose?

Can it be had at say vitamin world? Want to run it with my trib....

As for a future cycle......what do you think of 40mg tbol 30mg var ED for 6 weeks? Might try this between injectable bulk cycles (i WILL run the trinity test/deca/dbol next year!).
 
RossLovesMoney said:
THESE ARE ALL NEGATIVE EFFECTS of TESTOSTERONE--NOT TEST DERIVATIVES:



The action of testosterone can be in ways both beneficial and detrimental to the body. On the plus side, this hormone has a direct impact on the growth of muscle tissues, the production of red blood cells and overall well being of the organism. But it may also negatively effect the production of skin oils, growth of body, facial and scalp hair, and the level of both "good" and "bad" cholesterol in the body (among other things). In fact, men have a shorter average life span than women, which is believed to be largely due to the cardiovascular defects that this hormone may help bring about. Testosterone will also naturally convert to estrogen in the male body, a hormone with its own unique set of effects. As we have discussed earlier, raising the level of estrogen in men can increase the tendency to notice water retention, fat accumulation, and will often cause the development of female tissues in the breast (gynecomastia). Clearly we see that most of the "bad" side effects from steroids are simply those actions of testosterone that we are not looking for when taking a steroid. Raising the level of testosterone in the body will simply enhance both its good and bad properties, but for the most part we are not having "toxic° reactions to these drugs. A notable exception to this is the possibility of liver damage, which is a worry isolated to the use of c17-alpha alkylated oral steroids. Unless the athlete is taking anabolic/androgenic steroids abusively for a very long duration, side effects rarely amount to little more than a nuisance. One could actually make a case that periodic steroid use might even be a healthy practice. Clearly a person's physical shape can relate closely to one's overall health and well being. Provided some common sense is paid to health checkups, drug choice, dosage and off-time, how can we say for certain that the user is worse off for doing so? This position is of course very difficult to publicly justify with steroid use being so deeply stigmatized. Since this can be a very lengthy discussion, t will save the full health, moral and legal arguments for another time. For now I would like to run down the list of popularly discussed side effects, and include any current treatment/avoidance advice where possible.

Acne

Rampant acne is one of the more obvious indicators of steroid use. As you know, teenage boys generally endure periods of irritating acne as their testosterone levels begin to peak, but this generally subsides with age. But when taking anabolic/androgenic steroids, an adult will commonly be confronted with this same problem. This is because the sebaceous glands, which secrete oils in the skin, are stimulated by androgens. Increasing the level of such hormones in the skin may therefore enhance the output of oils, often causing acne to develop on the back, shoulders, and face. The use of strongly androgenic steroids in particular can be very troublesome, in some instances resulting in very unsightly blemishes all over the skin. To treat acne, the athlete has a number of options. The most obvious of course is to be very diligent with washing and topical treatments, so as to remove much of the dirt and oil before the pores become clogged. If this proves insufficient, the prescription acne drug Accutaine might be a good option. This is a very effective medication that acts on the sebaceous glands, reducing the level of oil secreted. The athlete could also take the ancillary drug Proscar®/Propecia® (finasteride) during steroid treatment, which reduces the conversion of testosterone into DHT, lowering the tendency for androgenic side effects with this hormone. It is of note however that this drug is more effective at warding off hair loss than acne, as it more specifically effects DHT conversion in the prostate and hair follicles. It is also important to note that testosterone is the only steroid that really converts to dihydrotestosterone, and only a few others actually convert to more potent steroids via the 5a-reductase enzyme at all. Many steroids are also potent androgens in their own right, such as Anadrol 50® and Dianabol for example. As such they can exert strong androgenic activity in target tissues without 5a-reduction to a more potent compound, which makes Propecia® useless. Of course one can also simply take those steroids (anabolics) that are less androgenic. For sensitive individuals attempting to build mass, nandrolone would therefore be a much better option than testosterone.

Aggression

Aggressive behaviour can be one of the scarier sides to steroid use. Men are typically more aggressive than women because of testosterone, and likewise the use of steroids (especially androgens) can increase a person's aggressive tendencies. In some instances this can be a benefit, helping the athlete hit the weights more intensely or perform better in a competition. Many professional power lifters and bodybuilders take a particular liking to this effect. But on the other hand there is nothing more unsettling than a grown man, bloated with muscle mass, who cannot control his temper. A steroid user who displays an uncontrollable rage is clearly a danger to himself and others. If an athlete is finding himself getting agitated at minor things during a steroid cycle, he should certainly find a means to keep this from getting out of hand. Remembering to take a couple of deep breaths at such times can Be very helpful. If such attempts prove to be ineffective, the offending steroids should be discontinued. The bottom line is that if you lack the maturity and self control to keep your anger in check, you should not be using steroids.

Anaphylactic Shock

Anaphylactic shock is an allergic reaction to the presence of a foreign protein in the body. It most commonly occurs when an individual has an allergy to things like a specific medication (such as penicillin), insect bites, industrial/household chemicals, foods (commonly nuts, shellfish, fruits) and food additives/preservatives (particularly sulfur). With this sometimes-fatal disorder the smooth muscles are stimulated to contract, which may restrict a person's breathing. Symptoms include wheezing, swelling, rash or hives, fever, a notable drop in blood pressure, dizziness, unconsciousness, convulsions or death. This reaction is not really seen with hormonal products like anabolic/androgenic steroids, but this may change with the rampant manufacture of counterfeit pharmaceuticals. Being that there are no quality controls for black market producers, toxins might indeed find their way into some preparations (particularly injectable compounds). My only advice would be to make every attempt to use only legitimately produced drug products, preferably of First World origin. When anaphylactic shock occurs, it is most commonly treated with an injection of epinephrine. Individuals very sensitive to certain insect bites are familiar with this procedure, many of who keep an allergy kit (for the self administration of epinephrine) close at hand.

Birth Defects

Anabolic/androgenic steroids can have a very pronounced impact on the development of an unborn fetus. Adrenal Genital Syndrome in particular is a very disturbing occurrence, in which a female fetus can develop male-like reproductive organs. Women who are, or plan to become pregnant soon, should never consider the use of anabolic steroids. It would also be the best advice to stay away from these drugs completely for a number of months prior to attempting the conception of a child, so as to ensure the mother has a normal hormonal chemistry. Although anabolic/androgenic steroids can reduce sperm count and male fertility, they are not linked to birth defects what taken by someone fathering a child.

Blood Clotting Changes

The use of anabolic/androgenic steroids is shown to increase prothrombin time, or the duration it will take for a blood clot to form. This basically means that while an individual is taking steroids, he/she may notice that it takes slightly longer than usual for a small cut or nosebleed to stop seeping blood. During the course of a normal day this is hardly cause for alarm, but it can lead to more serious trouble if a severe accident occurred, or an unexpected surgery was needed. Realistically the changes in clotting time are not extremely dramatic, so athletes are usually only concerned with this side effect if planning for a surgery. The clotting changes brought about by anabolic steroids are amplified with the use of medications like Aspirin, Tylenol and especially anticoagulants, so your doctor should be informed of their use (steroids) if undergoing any notable treatment with these types of drugs.

Cancer

Although it is a popular belief that steroids can give you cancer, this is actually a very rare phenomenon. Since anabolic/androgenic steroids are synthetic version of a natural hormone that your body can metabolize quite easily, they usually place a very low level of stress on the organs. In fact, many steroidal compounds are safe to administer to individuals with a diagnosed liver condition, with little adverse effect. The only real exception to this is with the use of C17 alpha alkylated compounds, which due to their chemical alteration are somewhat liver toxic. In a small number of cases (primarily with Anadrol 50®) this toxicity has lead to severe liver damage and subsequently cancer. But we are speaking of a statistically insignificant number in the face millions of athletes who use steroids. These cases also tended to be very ill patients, not athletes, who were using extremely large dosages for prolonged periods of time. Steroid opponents will sometimes point out the additional possibility of developing Wilm's Tumor from steroid abuse, which is a very serious form of kidney cancer. Such cases are so rare however, that no direct link between anabolic/androgenic steroid use and this disease has been conclusively established. Provided the athlete is not overly abusing methylated oral substances, and is visiting a doctor during heavier cycles, cancer should not be much of a concern.

Cardiovascular Disease

As mentioned earlier, the use of anabolic/androgenic steroids may have an impact on the level of LDL (low density lipoprotein), HDL (high density lipoprotein) and total cholesterol values. As you probably know, HDL is considered the "good" cholesterol since it can act to remove cholesterol deposits from the arteries. LDL has the opposite effect, aiding in the buildup of cholesterol on the artery walls. The general pattern seen with steroid use is a lowering of HDL concentrations, while total and LDL cholesterol numbers increase. The ratio of HDL to LDL values is usually more important than one's total cholesterol count, as these two substances seem to balance each other in the body. If these changes are exacerbated by the long-term use of steroidal compounds, it can clearly be detrimental to the cardiovascular system. This may be additionally heightened by a rise in blood pressure, which is common with the use of strongly aromatizable compounds.

It is also important to note that due to their structure and form of administration, most 17 alpha alkylated oral steroids have a much stronger negative impact on these levels compared to injectable steroids. Using a milder drug like Winstrol® (stanozolol), in hopes HDL level changes will also be mild, may therefore not turn out to be the best option. One study comparing the effect of a weekly injection of 200mg testosterone enanthate vs. only a 6mg daily oral dose of Winstrol® makes this very clear". After only six weeks, stanozolol was shown to reduce HDL and HDL-2 (good) cholesterol by an average of 33% and 71% respectively. The HDL reduction (HDL-3 subfraction) with the testosterone group was only an average of 9%. LDL (bad) cholesterol also rose 29% with stanozolol, while it actually dropped 16% with the use of testosterone. Those concerned with cholesterol changes during steroid use may likewise wish to avoid oral steroids, and opt for the use of injectable compounds exclusively. We also must note that estrogens generally have a favorable impact on cholesterol profiles. Estrogen replacement therapy in postmenopausal women for example is regularly linked to a rise in HDL cholesterol and a reduction in LDL values. Likewise the aromatization of testosterone to estradiol may be beneficial in preventing a more dramatic change in serum cholesterol due to the presence of the hormone. A recent study investigated just this question by comparing the effects of testosterone alone (280 mg testosterone enanthate weekly), vs. the same dose combined with an aromatase inhibitor (250mg testolactone 4 times daily)42. Methyltestosterone was also tested in third group, at a dose of 20mg daily. The results were quite enlightening. The group using only testosterone enanthate showed no significant decrease in HDL cholesterol values over the course of the 12 week study. After only four weeks the group using testosterone plus an aromatase inhibitor displayed a reduction of 25% on average. The methyltestosterone group noted an HDL reduction of 35% by this point, and also noted an unfavourable rise in LDL cholesterol. This clearly should make us think a little more closely about estrogen maintenance during steroid therapy. Aside from deciding whether or not it is actually necessary in any given circumstance, drug choice may also be an important consideration. For example, the estrogen receptor antagonist Nolvadex® does not seem to exhibit ant estrogenic effects on cholesterol values, and in fact often raises HDL levels. Using this to combat the side effects of estrogen instead of an aromatase inhibitor such as Arimidex® or Cytadren® may therefore be a good idea, particularly for those who are using steroids for longer periods of time. Since heart disease is one of the top killers worldwide, steroid using athletes (particularly older individuals) should not ignore these risks. If nothing else it is a very good idea to have your blood pressure and cholesterol values measured during each heavy cycle, being sure to discontinue the drugs should a problem become evident. It is also advisable to limit the intake of foods high in saturated fats and cholesterol, which should help minimize the impact of steroid treatment. Since blood pressure and cholesterol levels will usually revert back to their pre-treated norms soon after steroids are withdrawn, long-term damage is not a common worry.

Depression

Steroid use will obviously have an impact on hormone levels in the body, which in turn may result in a change in one's general disposition or mood. On the one hand we might see very aggressive behaviour, but the other extreme of depression also exists. Depression usually occurs at times when an individual's androgen/estrogen levels are significantly off balance. This is most common with male bodybuilders, at times when anabolic/androgenic steroids are discontinued. During this period estrogen levels may be markedly elevated (from the aromatization of steroids), which is often coupled with a deeply suppressed endogenous testosterone level. Once the steroids are no longer present in the body, the athlete may suffer with a low androgen level until the body catches up. Depression may also occur during the course of a steroid cycle, particularly with the sole use of anabolics. Although these compounds are mild in comparison to androgens, many can still suppress the endogenous Production of testosterone. If the testosterone level drops significantly during treatment, the administered anabolics may not provide enough of an androgen level to compensate, and a marked loss of motivation and sense of well-being may result. The best advice when looking to avoid cycle or post-cycle depression is to closely monitor drug intake and withdrawal. The use of a small weekly testosterone dose might prove very effective if added to a mild dieting/anabolic cycle, warding off feelings of boredom and apathy to training. And of course a strong steroid cycle should always be discontinued with the proper use of ancillary drugs (Nolvadex®, Arimidex®, HCG, Clomid® etc.). Although tapering schedules are very common, they are not an effective way to restore endogenous testosterone levels.

Gynecomastia

Gynecomastia is the medical term for the development of female breast tissues in the male body. This occurs when the male is presented with unusually high level of estrogen, particularly with the use of strong aromatizing androgens such as testosterone and Dianabol. The excess estrogen can act upon receptors in the breast and stimulate the growth of mammary tissues. If left unchecked this can lead to an actual obvious and unsightly tissue growth under the nipple area, in many cases taking on a very feminine appearance. To fight this side effect during steroid therapy, many find it necessary the use some form of estrogen maintenance medication. This includes an estrogen antagonist such as Clomid® or Nolvadex®, which blocks estrogen from attaching to and activating receptors in the breast and other tissues, or an aromatase inhibitor such as Proviron®, Cytadren® or Arimidex©, which blocks the enzyme responsible for the conversion of androgens to estrogens. Arimidex® is currently the most effective option, but is also the most costly.

It is worth noting however, that many believe a slightly elevated estrogen level may help the athlete achieve a more pronounced muscle mass gain during a cycle (see: Estrogen Aromatization). With this in mind many athletes decide to use antiestrogens only when it is necessary to block gynecomastia. It is of course still a good idea to always keep an antiestrogen on-hand when administering an aromatizable steroid, so that it is readily accessible should trouble become evident. Puffiness or swelling under the nipple is one of the first signs of pending gynecomastia, which is often accompanied by pain or soreness in this region (an effect termed gynecodynea). This is a clear indicator that some type of antiestrogen is needed. If the swelling progresses into small, marble like lumps, action absolutely must be taken immediately to treat it. Otherwise if the steroids are continued at this point without ancillary drug use, the user will likely be stuck with unsightly tissue growth that can only be removed with a surgical procedure.

It is also important to mention that progestins seem to augment the stimulatory effect of estrogens on mammary tissue growth. There appears to be a strong synergy between these two hormones here, such that gynecomastia might even be able to occur with the help of progestins, without excessive estrogen levels being necessary. Since many anabolic steroids, particularly those derived from nandrolone, are known to have progestational activity, we must not be lulled into a false sense of security. Even a low estrogen producer like Deca can potentially cause gyno in certain cases, again fostering the need to keep anti-estrogens close at hand if you are very sensitive to this side effect.

Hair loss

The use of highly androgenic steroids can negatively impact the growth of scalp hair. In fact the most common form of male pattern hair loss is directly linked to the level of androgens in such tissues, most specifically the stronger DHT metabolite of testosterone. The technical term for this type of hair loss is androgenetic alopecia, which refers to the interplay of both the male androgenic hormones and a genetic predisposition in bringing about this condition. Those who suffer from this disorder are shown to posses finer hair follicles and higher levels of DHT in comparison to a normal, hairy scalp. But since there is a genetic factor involved, many individuals will not ever see signs of this side-effect, even with very heavy steroid use. Clearly those individuals who are suffering from (or have a familial predisposition for) this type of hair loss should be very cautious when using the stronger drugs like testosterone, Anadrol 50®, Halotestin® and Dianabol.

In many instances the renewal of lost hair can be very difficult, so avoiding this side effect before it occurs is the best advice. For those who need to worry, the decision should probably be made to either stick with the milder substances (Deca-Durabolin® most favoured), or to use the ancillary drug Propecia®/Proscar® (finasteride) when taking testosterone, methyltestosterone or Halotestin. Propecia® is a very effective hair loss medication, which inhibits the 5-alpha reductase enzyme specifically in the hair follicles and prostate. This item offers us little benefit with drugs that are highly androgenic without 5alpha reduction however, the most notable offenders being Anadrol 50® and Dianabol. We must also remember also that all anabolic/androgenic steroids activate the androgen receptor, and can likewise all promote hair loss given the right dosage and conditions.

Headaches

Athletes sometimes report an increased frequency of headaches when using anabolic/androgenic steroids. This seems to be most common during heavier bulking cycles, when an individual is utilizing strongly estrogenic compounds. One should not simply take an aspirin and ignore this problem, as it is may indicate a more troubling side effect of steroid use, high blood pressure. Since high blood pressure invites with it a number of unwanted health risks, monitoring it on a regular schedule is important during heavy steroid use, especially if the individual is experiencing headaches. Some athletes choose to lower their blood pressure in such cases with a prescription medication like Catapres, but most find this an appropriate time to discontinue steroid use. Milder anabolics, which generally display little or no ability to convert to estrogen, are also more acceptable options for individuals sensitive to blood pressure increases. Less seriously, many headaches are due to simple strain on the neck and scalp muscles. The athlete may be lifting with much more intensity during a steroid cycle, and as a result may place added strain on these muscles. In this case a short break from training, and general rest, will often take care of the problem. Of course if anyone is experiencing a very serious or persistent headache, a visit to the doctor may be in order.

High Blood Pressure/Hypertension

Athletes using anabolic/androgenic steroids will commonly notice a rise in blood pressure during treatment. High blood pressure is most often associated with the use of steroids that have a high tendency for estrogen conversion, such as testosterone and Dianabol. As estrogen builds in the body, the level of water and salt retention will typically elevate (which will increase blood pressure). This may be further amplified by the added stress of intense weight training and rapid weight gain. Since hypertension (high blood pressure) can place a great deal of stress on the body, this side effect should not be ignored. If it is left untreated, high blood pressure can increase the likelihood for heart disease, stroke or kidney failure. Warning signs that one may be suffering from hypertension include an increased tendency to develop headaches, insomnia or breathing difficulties. In many instances these symptoms do not become evident until BP is seriously elevated, so a lack of these signs is no guarantee that the user is safe. Obtaining your blood pressure reading is a very quick and easy procedure (either at a doctors office, pharmacy or home); steroid-using athletes should certainly be monitoring BP values during stronger cycles so as to avoid potential problems.

If an individual's blood pressure values are becoming notably elevated, some action should/must be taken to control it. The most obvious is to avoid the continued use of the offending steroids, or at least to substitute them with milder, non-aromatizing compounds. It is also of note that although aromatizing steroids are typically involved, nonaromatizing androgens like Halotestin® or trenbolone are occasionally also been linked to high blood pressure, so these are perhaps not the ideal alternatives in such a situation. The athlete also has the option of seeking the benefit of high blood pressure medications such as diuretics, which can dramatically lower water and salt retention. Catapres (clonidine HCL) is also a popular medication among athletes, because in addition to its blood pressure lowering properties it has also been documented to raise the body's output of growth hormone.

Immune System Changes

The use of anabolic/androgenic steroids has been shown to produce changes in the body that may impact an individual's immune system. These changes however can be both good and bad for the user. During steroid treatment for instance, many athletes find they are less susceptible to viral illnesses. New studies involving the use of compounds like oxandrolone and Deca-Durabolin® with HIV+ patients seem to back up this claim, clearly showing that these drugs can have a beneficial effect on the immune system. Such therapies are in fact catching on in recent years, and many doctors are now less reluctant to prescribe these drugs to their ill patients. But just as a person may be less apt to notice illness during steroid treatment, the discontinuance of steroids can produce a rebound effect in which the immune system is less able to fight off pathogens. This most likely coincides with the rebound activity/production of cortisol, a catabolic hormone in the body, which may act to suppress immune system functioning. When the administered steroids are withdrawn, an androgen deficient state is often endured until the body is able to rebalance hormone production. Since testosterone and cortisol seem counter each other's activity in many ways, the absence of a normal androgen level may place cortisol in an unusually active state. During this period of imbalance, cortisol will not only be stripping the body of muscle mass, but it may also cause the athlete to be more susceptible to colds, flu etc. The proper use of ancillary drugs (antiestrogens, testosterone stimulating drugs) is the most common suggestion for helping to avoid this problem, which will hopefully allow the user to restore a proper balance of hormones once the steroids are removed.

We also cannot ignore the other-hand possibility that steroids could actually increase cortisol levels in the body during treatment. Termed hypercortisolemia, this effect is a common occurrence with anabolic/androgenic steroid therapy. This is because anabolic/androgenic steroids may interfere with the ability for the body to clear corticosteroids from circulation, due to the fact that in their respective pathways of metabolism these hormones share certain enzymes. When overloaded with androgens competing for the same enzymes cortisol may be broken down at a slower rate, and levels of this hormone will in turn begin build. Due to their strong tendency to inhibit the activity of the 3beta hydroxysteroid dehydrogenase enzyme, oral c17 alpha alkylated orals may be particularly troublesome in regards to elevated cortisol levels, as again this is a common pathway for corticosteroid metabolism. Though an elevated cortisol level is not a common concern during most typical steroid cycles, problems can certainly become evident when these drugs are used at very high doses or for prolonged periods of time. This of course may lead to the athlete becoming "run-down" and more susceptible to illness, as well as foster a more over-trained and static (less anabolic) state of metabolism.

Kidney Stress/Damage

Since your kidneys are involved in the filtration and removal of byproducts from the body, the administration of steroidal compounds (which are largely excreted in the urine) may cause them some level of strain. Actual kidney damage is most likely to occur when the steroid user is suffering from severe high blood pressure, as this state can place an undue amount of stress on these organs. There is actually some evidence to suggest that steroid use can be linked to the onset of Wilm's Tumor in adults, which is a rapidly growing kidney tumor normally seen in children and infants. Such cases are so rare however, that no conclusive link has been established. Obviously the kidneys are vital to one's heath, so the possibility of any kind of damage (although low) should not be ignored during heavy steroid treatment. If the user is noticing a darkening of color (in some cases a distinguishable amount of blood), or pain/difficulty when urinating, kidneys strain might be a legitimate concern. Other warning signs include pain in the lower back (particularly in the kidney areas), fever and edema (swelling). If organ damage is feared, the administered steroidal compounds should be discontinued immediately, and the doctor paid a visit to rule out any serious trouble. Since kidney stress/damage is generally associated with the use of stronger aromatizing compounds such as testosterone and Dianabol (which often raise blood pressure), individuals sensitive to high blood pressure/kidney stress should such compounds until health concerns are safely avoided. If steroid use is still necessitated by the individual, it may be a good idea to avoid the stronger compounds and opt for one of the milder anabolics. Primobolan®, Anavar and Winstrol® for example do not convert to estrogen at all, and likewise may be acceptable options. Also favorable drugs in this regard are Deca-Durabolin® and Equipoise, which have only a low tendency to convert to estrogen.

Liver Stress/Damage

Liver stress/damage is not a side effect of steroid use in general, but is specifically associated with the use of c17 alpha alkylated compounds. As mentioned earlier, these structures contain chemical alterations that enable them to be administered orally. In surviving a first pass by the liver, these compounds place some level of stress on the organ. in some instances this has led to severe damage, even fatal liver cancer. The disease peliosis hepatitis is one worry, which is an often life threatening condition where the liver develops blood filled cysts. Liver cancer (hepatic carcinoma) has also been noted in certain cases. While these very serious complications have occurred on certain occasions where liver-toxic compounds were prescribed for extended periods, it is important to stress however that this is not very common with steroid using athletes. Most of the documented cases of liver cancer have in fact been in clinical situations, particularly with the use of the powerful oral androgen Anadrol 50® (oxymetholone). This may be directly related to the high dosage of this preparation, as Anadrol 50® contains a whopping 50mg of active steroid per tablet. This is a considerable jump from other oral preparations, most of which contain 5mg or less of a substance. With one Anadrol 50® tablet, the liver will therefore have to process (roughly) the equivalent of 10 Dianabol tablets. This obvious stress is further amplified when we look at the unusually high dosage schedule for ill patients receiving this medication. With Anadrol 50®, the manufacturer's recommendations may call for the use of as many as 8 or 10 tablets daily. This is of course a far greater amount than most athletes would ever think of consuming, with three or four tablets per day being considered the upper limit of safety. It is also important to note that the actual number of cases involving liver damage have been few, and have not been a significant enough of a problem to warrant discontinuing this compound. Methyltestosterone, this first steroid shown to cause liver trouble, is also still available as a prescription drug in this country. The average recreational steroid user who takes toxic orals at moderate dosages for relatively short periods is therefore very unlikely to face devastating liver damage.

Although severe liver damage may occur before the onset of noticeable symptoms, it is most common to notice jaundice during the early stages of such injury. Jaundice is characterized by the buildup of bilirubin in the body, which in this case will usually result from the obstruction of bile ducts in the liver. The individual will typically notice a yellowing of the skin and eye whites as this colored substance builds in the body tissues, which is a clear sign to terminate the use of any c17 alpha alkylated steroids. In most instances the immediate withdrawal of these compounds is sufficient to reverse and prevent any further damage. Of course the athlete should avoid using orals for an extended period of time, if not indefinitely, should jaundice occur repeatedly during treatment. It is also a good idea to visit your physician during oral treatment in order to monitor liver enzyme values. Since liver stress will be reflected in your enzyme counts well before jaundice is noticed, this can remove much of the worry with oral steroid treatment.

Prostate Enlargement

Prostate cancer is currently one of the most common forms of cancer in males. Benign prostate enlargement (a swelling of prostate tissues often interfering with urine flow) can precede/coincide this cancer, and is clearly an important medical concern for men who are aging. Prostate complications are believed to be primarily dependent on androgenic hormones, particularly the strong testosterone metabolite DHT in normal situations, much in the same way estrogen is linked to breast cancer in women. Although the connection between prostate enlargement/cancer and steroid use is not fully established, the use of steroids may theoretically aggravate such conditions by raising the level of androgens in the body. It is therefore a good idea for older athletes to limit/avoid the intake of strong 5-alpha reducible androgens like testosterone, methyltestosterone and Halotestin, or otherwise use Proscar® (finasteride), which was specifically designed to inhibit the 5-alpha reductase enzyme in scalp and prostate tissues. This may be an effective preventative measure for older athletes who insist on using these compounds. Drugs like Dianabol, Anadrol 50® and Proviron, which do not convert to DHT yet are still potent androgens, are not effected by its use however. It is also important to mention that not only androgens but also estrogens are necessary for the advancement of this condition. It appears that the two work synergistically to stimulate benign prostatic growth, such that one without the other would not be enough to cause it. It has therefore been suggested that non-aromatizable compounds may be better options for older men looking for androgen replacement than lowering androgenic activity in the prostate. It is easier to accomplish, and should be accompanied with less side effects. It would also be very sound advice, regardless of steroid use, for individuals over 40 to have a physician check the prostate on somewhat of a regular basis.

Sexual Dysfunction

The functioning of the male reproductive system depends greatly on the level of androgenic hormones in the body. The use of synthetic male hormones may therefore have a dramatic impact on an individual's sexual wellness. On one extreme we may see a man's libido and erection frequency become extremely heightened. This is most commonly seen with the use of strongly androgenic steroids, which seem to have the most dramatic stimulating impact on this system. In some instances this can reach the point of becoming a problem, although more often than not the athlete is simply much more active and aggressive sexually during the intake of steroids.

On the other extreme we may also see a lack of sexual interest, possibly to the point of impotency. This occurs mainly when androgenic hormones are at a very low. This will often happen after a steroid cycle is discontinued, as the endogenous production of testosterone is commonly suppressed during the cycle. Removing the androgen (from an outside source) leaves the body with little natural testosterone until this imbalance is corrected. The loss of its' metabolite DHT is particularly troubling, as this hormone may have a strong affect on the reproductive system that may not be apparent with other less androgenic hormones. It is therefore a very good idea to use testosterone-stimulating drugs like HCG and/or Clomid®/Nolvadex® when coming off of a strong cycle, so as to reduce the impact of steroid withdrawal. Impotency/sexual apathy may also occur during the course of a steroid cycle, particularly when it is based strictly on anabolic compounds. Since all "anabolics" can suppress the manufacture of testosterone in the body, the administered drugs may not be androgenic enough to properly compensate for the testosterone loss. In such a case the user might opt to include a small androgen dosage (perhaps a weekly testosterone injection), or again to reverse/prevent the androgen suppression with the use of medications like Clomid® or HCG.

It is also interesting to note that it is not always simply an androgen vs. anabolic issue. People will often respond very differently to an equal dose of the same drug. While one individual may notice sexual disinterest or impotency, another may become extremely aggressive. It is therefore difficult to predict how someone will react to a particular drug before having used it.

Stunted Growth

Many anabolic/androgenic steroids have the potential to impact an individual's stature if taken during adolescence. Specifically, steroids can stunt growth by stimulating the epiphyseal plates in a person's long bones to prematurely fuse. Once these plates are fused, future liner growth is not possible. Even if the individual avoids steroid use subsequently, the damage is irreversible and he/she can be stuck at the same height forever. Not even the use of growth hormone can reverse this, as this powerful hormone can only thicken bones when used during adulthood. Interestingly enough it is not the steroids themselves, but the buildup of estrogen that causes the epiphyseal plates to fuse. Women are shorter than men on average because of this effect of estrogen, and likewise the use of steroids that readily convert to estrogen can prematurely suppress/halt a person's growth. In fact, the use of steroids like Anavar, Winstrol® and Primobolan® (which do not convert to estrogen) can actually increase one's height if taken during adolescence, as their anabolic effects will promote the retention of calcium in the bones. This would also hold true for non-aromatizing androgens such as trenbolone, Proviron® and Halotestin®. It is of course still good common sense to advise adolescents to avoid steroid use, at least until their bodies are fully mature and steroid use will have a less dramatic impact.

Testicular Atrophy

The human body always prefers to remain in a very balanced hormonal state, a tendency known as homeostasis. When the administration of androgens from an outside source causes a surplus of hormone, it will cause the body to stop manufacturing its own testosterone. Specifically this happens via a feedback mechanism, where the hypothalamus detects a high level of sex steroids (including androgens, progestins and estrogens) and shuts off the release of GnRH (Gonadotropin Releasing Hormone, formerly referred to as luteinizing hormone releasing hormone). This in turn causes the pituitary to stop releasing luteinizing hormone and FSH (follicle stimulating hormone), the two hormones (primarily LH) that stimulate the Leydig's cells in the testes to release testosterone (negative feedback inhibition has been demonstrated at the pituitary level as well). Without stimulation by LH and FSH the testes will be in a state of production limbo, and may shrink from inactivity. In extreme cases the steroid user can notice testicles that are unusually and frighteningly small. This effect is temporary however, and once the drugs are removed (and hormone levels rebalance) the testicles should return to their original size. Many regular steroid users find this side effect quite troubling, and use ancillary drugs like Clomid®/Nolvadex® or HCG during a steroid cycle in order to try to maintain testicular activity (and size) during treatment. The more estrogenic androgens (testosterone, Anadrol 50® and Dianabol) are of course most dramatic in this regard, and are therefore poor choices for individuals who seriously want to avoid testicle shrinkage. Non-aromatizing anabolics would be a better option, however be warned that all steroids should have an impact on the production of testosterone if taken at an anabolically effective dosage (yes, even Anavar and Primobolan®).

Water and Salt Retention

Many anabolic/androgenic steroids can increase the amount of water and sodium stored in body tissues. In some instances steroid induced water retention can bring about a very bloated appearance to the body (hands, arms, face etc.), which will also reduce the visibility of muscle features (loss of definition). Athletes often ignore this side effect, particularly during bulking cycles when the excess water stored in the muscles, joints and connective tissues will help to improve an individual's overall strength. With the use of many strong androgens, water retention can account for much of the initial strength and body weight gain during steroid treatment, with "water-weight' sometimes amounting to ten or more pounds. Although water retention may not be the most unwelcome side effect during a bulking cycle (greater strength and mass), it can lead to dangerous problems such as high blood pressure and kidney damage. The body is clearly under more strain when dealing with an unusually high level of water, so athletes should not simply ignore this. Water retention is most specifically associated with the presence of estrogen in the body, and is therefore common with the use of aromatizing compounds (such as testosterone and Dianabol). If water retention becomes an obvious problem during a cycle, the use of an antiestrogen (Nolvadex®, Proviron®) may help minimize it. The antiaromatase Arimidex® is in fact the most effective option, which inhibits the conversion of testosterone to estrogen. Sometimes the athlete will alternately option for a diuretic, which can rapidly shed the water so as to achieve a more comfortable/attractive physique in a very short time. This is a common practice when preparing for a competition, as diuretic use allows the user a great level of control over water stores. Of course discontinuing the offending compounds, or substituting them with a milder anabolic would be the simplest option for recreational steroid users.

Virilization

Since anabolic/androgenic steroids are synthetic male hormones, they can produce a number of undesirable changes when introduced into the female body. This includes the possibility of "virilization", which refers to the tendency for women to develop masculine characteristics when taking these drugs. Virilization symptoms include a deepening or hoarseness of the voice, changes in skin texture, acne, menstrual irregularities, increased libido, hair loss (scalp), body/facial/pubic hair growth and an enlargement of the clitoris. In extreme cases the female genitalia can become very disfigured, and may actually take on a penis-like appearance. Women must clearly be very careful when considering the use of steroids, especially since most virilization symptoms are irreversible. The stronger androgenic compounds should obviously be off-limits, with cautious female athletes restricting themselves to the use of only mild anabolics such as Winstrol®, Primobolan®, Anavar and Durabolin® (the shorter acting nandrolone). Nandrolone is actually the preferred hormone, as it displays the lowest level of androgenic to anabolic activity. Since even these milder anabolics have the potential to cause problems however, users should additionally remember to be conservative with drug dosages and duration of intake. After each cycle of course a notable break from treatment would be a good idea as well, so that the body has sufficient time to reestablish a hormonal balance.

If you're saying these sides don't apply to test derivatives, you're seriously mistaken!!!
 
I will throw in my 2 cents.

I do think that people here is a lil too obsessed with test . I gotta say I never used it so I really can't comment . But I HAve used win , primo , var , eq , HGH and a lot of other drugs .

This is how I see it . Test , D-rol , D-bol, fina , deca etc... will make you gain much more muscle ( never used those but from what I read ) but the sides IMO will be worse , every day I see a post here like this : " HELP I GOTTA A LIMP DICK " .

What does it means ? Yeah You will pack on some mass , but most of the time like he said you will have problems , if it is not impotence ( which I would kill myself if I ever had ) is GYNO .

FACT is drugs that don't aromatize are safer IMO . I will not use test because I think I have natural high levels or estrogen already , a lil gyno that comes and goes , love handles and fat around nipple , that is a sign of estrogen fat . So , that is why I will stay away from test . Granted , a LOT of people use test and get ZERO side effects , but you gotta be willing to take the risk . I am not willing . that is why I stay away from FINA AND DECA ALSO .

What is the point in being all jacked if you can't FUCK ? Then you go on a date with a HOT BITCH and oh oh ......

after 1 week you call her , and she dumped you , and next thing you know , she is dating that skinny ass guy , but hey , he can fuck her 4 times a day .... oh well ....


Victor
 
Well said Victor...

As for the LIST of side-effects ....All of the sides mentioned and all of the case studies provided are with TEST. YES--I am sure that some of those side-effects can be caused by other more milder androgens, but alot of them can not--ie, GYNO, Hairloss, SERIOUS acne requiring treatment, Agression, Shutdown, Depression, Stunted growth....

Im not bashing test--I simply see no use for it among non-competeing bodybuilders.
 
Hey Ross, On week 6 of my first cycle. 8 week cycle that started with 3 weeks of 30mg a day TBol, 50mg Porviron and 30 Mg Var. Upped the Var to 80 mg for week 4 to 7 and then I'll taper off for week 8. Added in Androil at 280 a day for week 4-7 although I'm tapering off of the Androil this week as I'm not feeling like it is doing much. I gained about ten lbs by week four and have put on another 3-5 lbs so far for 12-15 lb total gain. The weight gain seems to have tapered off, I havent really seen any significant gain this week.

I have thought about doing some Deca next time (along with??) as I have several issues with elbow/shoulder/knee crap.

Overall, I would have to say that I'm quite happy with the gains and have read a considerable amount over the past year and I would have to say that the sides are far less than most have with injectables. I do believe that most of the sides that create concerns as far a hepatoxicity and colesterol issues can be controlled fairly well with the proper supplementation and common sense usage as far as dosages and length of cycle also.
 
missionpossible said:
Hey Ross, On week 6 of my first cycle. 8 week cycle that started with 3 weeks of 30mg a day TBol, 50mg Porviron and 30 Mg Var. Upped the Var to 80 mg for week 4 to 7 and then I'll taper off for week 8. Added in Androil at 280 a day for week 4-7 although I'm tapering off of the Androil this week as I'm not feeling like it is doing much. I gained about ten lbs by week four and have put on another 3-5 lbs so far for 12-15 lb total gain. The weight gain seems to have tapered off, I havent really seen any significant gain this week.

I have thought about doing some Deca next time (along with??) as I have several issues with elbow/shoulder/knee crap.

Overall, I would have to say that I'm quite happy with the gains and have read a considerable amount over the past year and I would have to say that the sides are far less than most have with injectables. I do believe that most of the sides that create concerns as far a hepatoxicity and colesterol issues can be controlled fairly well with the proper supplementation and common sense usage as far as dosages and length of cycle also.

OK--this cycle is a lil crazy....nonetheless, just learn for next time.

First of all ANDRIOL (Testosterone undeconate)is not a reliable steroid. It has been clinically demonstrated that blood levels are NOT DOSE-dependent. THIS MEANS, that there is a BIOAVAILABILITY issue. The drug doesn't ALWAYS get absorbed! Because it is NOT 17AA, it is not broken down by the liver, but enters the bloodstream via the stomach. We have long known that andriol poses serious bioavailability issues , which is why most have either not heard of it, or know to stay away. The lack of side effects is also due to LACK of BIOAVAILABILITY. Test is test. If it worked, you should have some tetsosteorne metabolites.

Secondly, Going from 30mg of var to 80mg var is quite a LEAP! You should have ran the VAR at 30-50mgs all the way through, and the TBOL at 40-60mgs.

I don't use decca, as it is BOTH--Estrogenic, Progestenic, and moderately androgenic.

Email me next cycle and we will outline your training/diet/cycle.....:)
 
Update:

Another PLUS--this stack KICKS in QUICK and HARD.

I am loving the pumps, hardness, and vascularity!
 
50mg tbol
600mg test cyp
tongkat ali 440mg daily
.50 letro every other day

3rd week in up 14lbs..prolly 16lbs by now
9 more weeks to go sweet!!!!!!
 
You ideas seem to work Ross, but id have to say the HPTA is worth it on DECA, the shit is amazing, lots of quality mass put on and shedding BF......if your PCT is right (all i need is a SERM and an aromitase inhibitor) and you will be good!

Ross, i posted a few back about this tongkat ali shit? Could you check that post?

PS, you are pretty lean....whats your diet and cardio like? I currently do 45min moderate (eliptical) in the morn on an empty stomach, then a shake, then a 2.5 milke walk to cool down (i cant run it, the lower back and knee). I lift at night and hit the heavy bag either before or after i lift. Usually 2 shakes and 3 meals a day, trying to get 50g protein per.
 
bigrand said:
You ideas seem to work Ross, but id have to say the HPTA is worth it on DECA, the shit is amazing, lots of quality mass put on and shedding BF......if your PCT is right (all i need is a SERM and an aromitase inhibitor) and you will be good!

Ross, i posted a few back about this tongkat ali shit? Could you check that post?

PS, you are pretty lean....whats your diet and cardio like? I currently do 45min moderate (eliptical) in the morn on an empty stomach, then a shake, then a 2.5 milke walk to cool down (i cant run it, the lower back and knee). I lift at night and hit the heavy bag either before or after i lift. Usually 2 shakes and 3 meals a day, trying to get 50g protein per.

When I am BULKING, I do NO CARDIO WHATSOEVER. Every calorie I consume is devoted to pure, unadulterated muscle GROWTH. I try to consume as many colries as possible(within reason) and EXPEND as little as possible. (EAT, SLEEP, WORKOUT, EAT, SLEEP)

While CUTTING, I still try to avoid classical cardio as I have an extreme tendency to be lean and vascular naturally (Ecto-Meso). Rather, I will do very INTENSE though not heavy "around the world" workouts--I invented these years ago when I COULD NOT RUN. You basically go from movement to movement to movement without any rest period. REMEMBER, we are not using heavy weight--this is not for hypertrophy...we are simply EXPENDING CALORIES--but doing so in a way that REVS UP YOUR METABOLIC RATE FOR DAYS. For example:

30 Pushups--no rest
40 SEC jumprope--no rest
20 Pushups--no rest
20 Lat pulldowns--no rest
50 sec jumprope--no rest
and so on and so on and so on.....

**REMEMEBER--we are using VERY light weight--this is not ANEROBIC---but rather AEROBIC.
The only Time I ever reached SUb5% BF, was doing these intense "Around the world" workouts.

Its also important to note--NEVER try to BULK and CUT at the same time.....You will get nowehere.
 
Quick UPDATE:

Day 5:

Up 2lbs. Looking leaner.

Had a GREAT shoulder workout! Definite increase in strength, and the pumps were sick. It's funny, because I can FEEL BOTH--the VAR and the TBOL, and I can almost detect the synergy. Like--the pump, and hardness is definitely VAR, but the FULLNESS and vascularity(and the 2lb muscle gain) are definitely TBOL.....I am very excited...
 
hey fassst,

Yeh tren is 5 months. I'm off season so taking the risk. Personally the sides are a bit crapp even at 50mg eod, so don't think I'll use it again.

T prop doesn't give me hell of strength increase in 2 weeks, but during that time I can train harder, recover faster, and my RBC is pushed up a bit, which is good.

I think 3 weeks is not a bad choice for length of time, perhaps I'll try that for the next cycle.

But I think 12 weeks on with shitty lipids...no thanks...not cool.

There is a middle ground somewhere I'm sure, but it depends on each person. I simply personally find I respond fairly well of AAS in small doses, lucky I guess? I woul def prefer to do long cycles, I'm very sure I would gain more weight and strength...but I don't know for how long before I'd become dependant on the stuff, which is something I see evryday on these boards. So far I've done 2 cycles, prop 125mg tren ace 50mg eod, up about 4 kg, same BF. I do 2 weeks on 4 weeks off, and 2 weeks clomid at only 50mg ed (damn stuff gives zits, fuckin hell)

Anyway, I have enough for another 2 short cycles, so I'll see if I can gain another 4 kg off em, hope so?
 
krishna said:
Why do you like EQ when it causes serious hair loss for some? Why don't you like tren?

EQ is HALF as androgenic as TEST--Tren is TWICE as androgenic as TEST.

EQ rarely causes hairloss.

TREN frequently causes hairloss.

TREN is also highly progestenic.

and toxic....with very little clinical data..
 
There are NO PERMENENT GAINS--WITH, or WITHOUT steroids. Even naturally, the only way to keep your body from shrinking back down to its more "comfrotable" size (the demands of muscle are grand) is to CONSTANTLY shock it and keep it growing, with exercise and a constant supply of calories. Same goes for steroids. You want to keep your gains? THEN EAT and TRAIN for years. Whether you are on or off, you will progress. But gains will never stay unless you make them.
 
Ross----why dont you throw up some pics bro. You look lean as hell in your avatar (props man) but maybe some other pics would/could validate your purported "knowledge". I think may people on these boards are lookng for more of the physique you have (or talk about) as opposed to the freak-ish bb'ers. That is NOT to say that others don't want to look like freaks.

Post up man.
 
Whacked said:
Ross----why dont you throw up some pics bro. You look lean as hell in your avatar (props man) but maybe some other pics would/could validate your purported "knowledge". I think may people on these boards are lookng for more of the physique you have (or talk about) as opposed to the freak-ish bb'ers. That is NOT to say that others don't want to look like freaks.

Post up man.

Heres a few
 
RossLovesMoney said:
How do I post for non-plats?


1 way is to post up the link or pictures address much like you would another websites address. If it is an attachment, then it should have it's own address but I have never been accused of being a computer genius so don't quote me on that.
 
Lookin' good, my man. I have enough lbm to look like that at 6'1" and about 215. I just can't seem to get my diet together!!! Congratulations to you. Good work.
 
hhmm how come african men are jacked and lean as hell without gear or dumbells?
im talking about the tribal guys and shit, not blacks here in america
 
marshallmadman said:
Lookin' good, my man. I have enough lbm to look like that at 6'1" and about 215. I just can't seem to get my diet together!!! Congratulations to you. Good work.

Thank you sir.

Lets see how I look after this Var/TBOL cycle! I can't wait....

Day 6:

WIll hit the gym late night--around 11-12:00...
I will update when I return.
 
hammercurls said:
hhmm how come african men are jacked and lean as hell without gear or dumbells?
im talking about the tribal guys and shit, not blacks here in america

I would imagine having to chase down your food and fight to kill it might have something to do with it.
 
Tboll can cause hairloss. I had problems with it and had to change half way through 50mgs every day to Var.
 
When you guys say that, 'when T-Bol hits the US'...You mean, when "suppliers" start selling it here or will a US Pharm Company will start mass producing it here too?
:confused:
 
No US pharmaceutical company will be producing Oral-Turinabol.

British Dragon carries a version of Oral-T called "Turanabol". SOLID product.
 
RossLovesMoney said:
EQ is HALF as androgenic as TEST--Tren is TWICE as androgenic as TEST.

EQ rarely causes hairloss.

TREN frequently causes hairloss.

TREN is also highly progestenic.

and toxic....with very little clinical data..


I think you'll find more people on this board complaining of hair loss from EQ over tren. I just got done with a tren/test cycle and barely lost any hair.
 
krishna said:
I think you'll find more people on this board complaining of hair loss from EQ over tren. I just got done with a tren/test cycle and barely lost any hair.

The fact is, how ANDROGENIC a chemical is, determines its effect on HAIRLOSS. Ergo, DHT, which is waaay more androgenic than test, causes hairloss. Tren is way more androgenic than even DHT. Tren, drol, and masteron are all very androgenic, thus they cause hairloss.

EQ is less than HALF as androgenic as test. Do the math.
 
Cycle Update:

Day 7

Up 4lbs--looking leaner.

GREAT workout. Did my Triceps today, and the pump was incredible. Definite strength increasee, which I wasn't expecting so early. Good vascularity, and my muscles continue to get harder.
 
RossLovesMoney said:
The fact is, how ANDROGENIC a chemical is, determines its effect on HAIRLOSS. Ergo, DHT, which is waaay more androgenic than test, causes hairloss. Tren is way more androgenic than even DHT. Tren, drol, and masteron are all very androgenic, thus they cause hairloss.

EQ is less than HALF as androgenic as test. Do the math.


Ya that's what I would of thought too. But more people on this board complain about hair loss from EQ than tren. There was even a poll taken in which the marority said tren caused no problems for hair loss, even to those who were prone to it. I think there is more to it then how androgenic it is. It might have something to do with how these chemicals react with certain receptors. In cases like TE, it most likely has to do with hormonal imbalances. Although EQ reduces in very minimal amounts, DHB is highly androgenic as well. In theory, what your saying is true, and that's what I used to think, but in real life, it doesn't seem to be the case. Take a poll and find out for yourself.
 
CYCLE UPDATE**

Day 8:

Great Back and Bicep workout. Still 4lbs up, hard as a rock, and extremely vascular. I think I am gonna post some new pics soon.
 
We'll see how it goes. On monday I start my tren/prop/tbol stack for 3 weeks. Prev I did only tren/prop so I guess I'll be able to tell if there's a difference...
 
under said:
Tboll can cause hairloss. I had problems with it and had to change half way through 50mgs every day to Var.


What brand were you using? BD? Were you on anything else? Thanks.
 
Ross, some have said that OT loses its effectiveness after 4 weeks or so. Have you found this to be the case, or can one just run it indefinitely and continue to enjoy gains?
 
Gambino said:
why did ross get banned?
No shit!!!! Aren't you in the wrong forum anyways.....lol
:Chef: :tuc:
 
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