Tribulus/AvenaSativa IS SUPPRESSIVE!!!

[SCOTTY-TWO-HOTTY]

Here's my proof:

Throughout the months of June/July this past summer, I did an 8 week cycle. 350mg/week of Karachi Sustanon stacked with 50mg/ED of Winstrol-V IM. In August, I followed up with a PCT consisting of 3 weeks of HCG/Nolvadex. In September, I had my Test levels checked by my Doctor...

Testosterone: 8.0 (Normal Range 8.0 - 26.7nmol/L)

So, I figured I do some Clomid. 3 days into it, I bailed. The sides were too bad and I could not continue. I quickily aquired some Tribulus/AvenaSativa and loved it!!! The strength and hardness I experienced rivaled the gains I had mid-cycle. I continued the Herbs for two months... and remained strong and hard. I quickly became a proponent of Tribulus/AvenaSativa as an alternative to Clomid.

At the beginning of November, I had more tests done... the results FLOORED me.

Testosterone: 4.1 (Normal Range 8.0 - 26.7nmol/L)
FSH: 4.6 (Normal Range <7.0u/L)
LH: 3.3 (Normal Range <12.0u/L)
TSH: 1.07 (Normal Range 0.2 - 4.0nu/L)

I couldn't understand this. I told my Doctor that my real world results were not congruent with the lab's data. I still had a very impressive physique and my strength was a good as it was in the summer. However, I was mortified by those numbers and decided to drop the Tribulus/AvenaSativa and have another run at Clomid.

One week later... I watched my body literally deteriorate before my eyes. I went through the worse Testosterone crash I've ever experienced...
I've accumulated inches of adipose tissue around my waist/chest.
I've lost all of my hardness.
My strength decreased significantly.
I became very lethargic and moody.
No sex drive (my GF accused me of cheating on her!)

I've done PCT with Clomid a few times (before I started to get severe sides from it) and I realize that many of the aforementoned symptoms are merely garden-variety side effects of Clomid. BUT HOLD ON!!! Whenever I've done Clomid before... my physique looked and felt amazing. Like ready-for-the-stage-amazing.

I fucking look like I'm in the fifth fucking grade right now.

 

[F117A Active Stealth]

I think all herbal concoctions are BS. I fell into this crap a while back, and I wish I had never spent a cent on any of it...

 

[BigAndy69]

Bro, I'm telling you, get on some clomid pronto start with 50mg and then go down to 25mg if it's too much

 

[SCOTTY-TWO-HOTTY]

Andy,
Bro... I've been on Clomid for over a week at 100mg/ED. This Test-crash I'm in isn't stopping for SHIT!

 

[BigAndy69]

Keep going with it.

 

[poantrex]

Andy,
Bro... I've been on Clomid for over a week at 100mg/ED. This Test-crash I'm in isn't stopping for SHIT!

8 weeks at 100mg per day will raise your test levels guaranteed - try to tough it out. The herbal stuff works good for popping wood the day after taking it, but I hardly see the results as being comparable to clomid's.

 

[Transporter]

yeah right, if it did not work for you does not mean it is supressive.

who knows how your body reacts to steroids. it is YOU and not herbal stuff.

 

[SCOTTY-TWO-HOTTY]

it is YOU and not herbal stuff.

Quit talking out of your ass.

Its "me"?

Tribulus/AvenaSativa has been reported by members on this board as being a replacement for Clomid. Its pure conjecture for fuck sake... especially if no one (including YOU) can back it up with lab results.

The numbers on those values don't lie.

 

[BigAndy69]

I don't trust herbals, I never used them.

 

[Nelson Montana]

What the fuck?

Let me get this straight...

You said the Clomid made you feel like shit and killed your libido.

You took the avena and got your libido back. (But T levels were lower)

You went back on he Clomid and lost all your strength.

And everybody is telling you to take more CLomid?


WHAT THE FUCK?!?!?!?!?!


Seem to me the Clomid sucks and the herbs were working bro.

But your T went down, right?

There are plenty of reasons for that. T fluctuates quite a bit from day to day, even throughout the day. It also isn't the result of the moment. It could have been the delayed reaction to the Clomid.

Dude, listen to me. No...better yet, listen to your body. This is a no brainer. I will never understand how people can not give up on the brainwashed notion that Clomid is so great. For a lot of people it sucks ass.

And by the way, next time, just use the avena with Muara Puama. Tribulus in high dosages can raise e and that may have had something to do with the numbers as well. Don'r discard everything because you did one thing wrong. And for god's sakes don't take clomid if it makes you feel like shit!!!

 

[zziggzzigg]

I went through almost identical thing, except I was using Tribulus and 6-oxo... crashed really bad, to the point where the only hope I thought was to go back on test which is what I did. Might stay on for good now as I can not afford the life disruption that a long crash/recovery would cause. There are problems with being on long term too, so it is not a perfect solution, but it is definitely better than living crashed and all that that entails.

 

[MMAfighter]

did u have your free vs. bound test levels checked? u could have low total test, but actually have a good amount of free test (the test that actually is working in your body). a lot of people think the mechanism by which avena works is by freeing up more bound test. your body would be producing less total test, but it would feel like hi-test because so much more of it was free. this would be consistent with your test results, and how u felt.

if u have a system that is working for u, why trash it...and your body

 

[Koivu_11]

What the fuck?

Let me get this straight...

You said the Clomid made you feel like shit and killed your libido.

You took the avena and got your libido back. (But T levels were lower)

You went back on he Clomid and lost all your strength.

And everybody is telling you to take more CLomid?


WHAT THE FUCK?!?!?!?!?!


Seem to me the Clomid sucks and the herbs were working bro.

But your T went down, right?

There are plenty of reasons for that. T fluctuates quite a bit from day to day, even throughout the day. It also isn't the result of the moment. It could have been the delayed reaction to the Clomid.

Dude, listen to me. No...better yet, listen to your body. This is a no brainer. I will never understand how people can not give up on the brainwashed notion that Clomid is so great. For a lot of people it sucks ass.

And by the way, next time, just use the avena with Muara Puama. Tribulus in high dosages can raise e and that may have had something to do with the numbers as well. Don'r discard everything because you did one thing wrong. And for god's sakes don't take clomid if it makes you feel like shit!!!

That was my thoughts after I read the initial post. I have a lot of customers taking Avena Sativa at 2000mg and they're loving the stuff. One guy is 55 years old approx took it for 20 days only and felt younger, stronger, got more massive and the most important thing, he got vascular like he hasn't been in 30 years. So the stuff works, there's A LOT of feedback on it. And it's 100% positive. I just want to make thing clears, I'm not someone really beleive in all the supplements crap and trying to selling you the stuff. I'm a science student and I work (part time) as a salesrep in a supplement store.

So the guy feels great while on Avena, then gets his tests levels tested, they're too low for his liking. But he's still hard, having libido and everything like if his test levels were high. Why the fuck did he gave up on the stuff. Geez dude, you said you looked like you were on mid cycle. That's fucking awesome. How about getting it your test levels again, on better condition. Let's said with more sleep and on a week that you eat a lot and clean?

I can't beleive the clomid hype too. On a molecular point of view, I'd simply never take it even if I were paid for it.

 

[lartinos]

Could just be the tribulas. I think there was a study that said it was infact suppressive. Since you took both it would be wrong to say they both are responsible.

 

[Naeblis]

Who cares what numbers were on the test. Clomid makes you feel like shit and the avena seems like it was working beautifully for you. Are test results more important than how you feel?? I'm confused here.

 

[Creepusmaximus]

Who cares what numbers were on the test. Clomid makes you feel like shit and the avena seems like it was working beautifully for you. Are test results more important than how you feel?? I'm confused here.

I second that thought. Tests can be wrong.

 

[Swolenpecs]

i think you feeling better on the herbs was a mental thing..maybe you had it in your mind that it was going to be better than clomid and it was because you believe it was....or im just an idiot lol

 

[chordz]

For an 8 week cycle you have been shut down pretty hard....Do you think it was the Winny?

 

[Heahy Minister]

I don't understand your frustration.

You said while on avena/trib your strength and hardness rivaled your gains while on and that you LOVED IT. You said you had an impressive physique while on the avena/trib and basically said everything was going great when you were on it.

Then after you saw a number even though it was telling you something completely opposite of how you were feeling (which was great), you decided to switch to clomid.

It is AFTER you switched to clomid that you turned to a pile of gobber.

Why the hell are you putting down the avena/trib?? Don't make sense to me.

 

[SCOTTY-TWO-HOTTY]

For an 8 week cycle you have been shut down pretty hard....Do you think it was the Winny?

Who knows Bro???

I'm so desperate right now. Its got me thinking about going back on for a while... Test only, 500mg/week. Maybe in a few months I'll be better prepared to deal with a crash like this.

 

[chordz]

Well i can tell you i am on 125mg of test a week and making great gains. Initially my nuts began to shrink but have returned to normal. I think the body will allow extra test to a certain point without interupting the natural process and leading to less of a crash.

 

[DJ_UFO]

This is the price of not having a well organized PCT. Also, there is a psychological factor. When you start a cycle, you know that you'll not see any gains until week 4-5 on test when it kicks in. Then you start seeing results and your system go shut down. But when you stop the cycle, test is still on your body for about 2 weeks...then you start your PCT. AFter about 3-4 weeks you are still suppressed. That's the point where most people is worried and start getting afraid. They don't know that like you had to wait 4-5 weeks to see the test kicking in, you'll need about 5 weeks to see your natty production recovering. Some of them stop the PCT and try something else. By doing that, the body was going to recover but the PCT was stopped. So instead of doing something better, it is getting worst. In your case you did just 3 weeks of HCG and nolva. That was starting to raise your natty production. Of course you tested your levels and they were ok. But those 3 weeks were not enough to jump start the system. So you changed to clomid and then switched to herbs...but just 2 herbs; maybe not even at the necessary daily amount. Your body was not recovering AT ALL. I'd plan a well organized PCT consisting of herbs (not only 2). DO some research because you need around 10 nutrients that can replace the chemicals in recovering. Then start the cycle and wait for the results. Give time to your body and learn how it reacts. Maybe you need more time into it. SOme prople can recover in 3 weeks, others maybe in 6-8.

good luck!

djufo.

 

[Ashamed]

so much fluff....

what's your diet like?

 

[SCOTTY-TWO-HOTTY]

so much fluff....

what's your diet like?

I suscribe to a STRICT Greg Kovacs post-cycle diet.... Donairs, Pizza, Nachos, Corn dogs, lots of drive-through food I pick up after I finish at the clubs. You know what Extascy's like.



j/k

I eat clean... lots of protein and quality calories. My Mom's a great cook!!!!

 

[zziggzzigg]

in my opinion 125mg/week is way too little, and also shows where you have to listen to your body and ignore test results, because everyone always says free test levels are higher than normal on 125 mg/week, but in my own experience I have very poor libido on 125 to 175 mg/week, and I've seen where pro's suggest that closer to 750 mg/week is the answer for libido problems in experienced users... I personally just upped my trt to 400 mg/week and am already on 75 mg/day proviron (although the proviron didn't help much when on the lower test dosage). I just started the increased dose 6 days ago (cypionate) so results should be just around the corner.

 

[Ashamed]

I suscribe to a STRICT Greg Kovacs post-cycle diet.... Donairs, Pizza, Nachos, Corn dogs, lots of drive-through food I pick up after I finish at the clubs. You know what Extascy's like.



j/k

I eat clean... lots of protein and quality calories. My Mom's a great cook!!!!

Perhaps it is your diet.. try a few weeks of daytime quality fats.. I say daytime because I understand it isn't wise to consume too many fats near bedtime for fear that they will be deposited on your body..

Peanut butter, full fat milk, ice cream, butter, pizza, etc etc

Do nolvadex again...

 

[Mike P.T.]

Perhaps it is your diet.. try a few weeks of daytime quality fats.. I say daytime because I understand it isn't wise to consume too many fats near bedtime for fear that they will be deposited on your body..

Peanut butter, full fat milk, ice cream, butter, pizza, etc etc

Do nolvadex again...

I was going to say the same thing. Fats help alot with the production of natural test levels. Also are you training more than you used to or still alot? When you go off you should back off a bit and get more rest during this time. Stay away from alcohol and recreational drugs and overall just give it time. I personally tried my pct without clomid for the first few weeks and I crashed bad. After frontloading with clomid at 300mg(no side effects for me luckily) and doing 150mg every 3 days I felt myself get back to normal in a little over a week. Good luck to you.

 

[Nelson Montana]

If ever there was a thread that was indictive of the confusion, misunderstanding and misinterpretation that abounds on this board, it's this one.

This post is a glowing example of the effectiveness of herbal PCT. Then the guy STOPPED and crashed. And half the people here are comfounded as to what to do. Hmmm, maybe you need Clomid! Go o HRT! Change your diet!

Does anyone actually read the posts?

The facts are obvious to some, while others remain oblivious. Scotty, no offense bro, but if you seem hopelessly confused. How old are you? Do yourself a favor and get the PF stuff and stay on it until you're fully recovered. And wait a while before starting any further drug use.

 

[supertech69]

Clomid doesn't bother me at all as far as sides so always run it but, it didn't work as well as usual after this last cycle I did. I threw just Avena Sativa into the mix after I finsihed my clomid & by the time I got throught he bottle, my sex drive was totally back to normal & i started to make gains again. Now, I do not have tests to back up the recovery but, I know how my body felt & how my sex drive was/is & that's enough proof for me. I followed the suggestion of Nelson, leaving the tribulus out & it worked like a charm.

 

[Anakin]

Scotty, you said you might go on 500mg/week because you will be better prepared to deal with the crash some other time.
That is bullshit. Don't lie to yourself.
You would just be delaying it and possibly making recovery even harder. Deal with it now even if it costs you, it will be better in the long term. Good luck man.

 

[The_Ghost]

I can't speak for anyone else and I don't have blood work to prove any of it but I used the herbal route last time and will never use clomid again.

I felt no crash after stopping my PCT. I should add I also had Nolva in there.

Just my two cents.

 

[Ashamed]

Well I don't know whether avena sativa (common oats) really does have a prosexual effect, but I certainly do feel very energised when I consume porridge every day... it is a perfect food...

All these people having problems after their cycles is freaking me out. I have been on Since April and am about to come off.

 

[Anakin]

Bigdawg, what herbals did you use? Just curious because a lot of people are leaving tribulus out.

 

[The_Ghost]

Here is my PCT that I used.

Avena Sativa 2000mg- 1000mg taken 2 times/day

Tribulus- 1000mg/day – 500mg Taken 2 times/day

Xanthoparmilia- 100mg/ day- once a day at night

Cnidium – 100mg/day –once a day at night

Maca 3000mg/day – 1500mg taken twice/day

ALA 1200 mg/day – 400mg taken 3 times/day

Milk Thistle 12600mg- 4200mg taken 3 times/day

Zinc- 50mg/day before bed

Nolva 20mg/day

Creatine 15g/day- 5g taken 3 time/day

 

[The_Ghost]

I should add that I might try it without the Trib next time myself.

 

[Nelson Montana]

Here is my PCT that I used.

Avena Sativa 2000mg- 1000mg taken 2 times/day

Tribulus- 1000mg/day – 500mg Taken 2 times/day

Xanthoparmilia- 100mg/ day- once a day at night

Cnidium – 100mg/day –once a day at night

Maca 3000mg/day – 1500mg taken twice/day

ALA 1200 mg/day – 400mg taken 3 times/day

Milk Thistle 12600mg- 4200mg taken 3 times/day

Zinc- 50mg/day before bed

Nolva 20mg/day

Creatine 15g/day- 5g taken 3 time/day

Glad to hear it worked, but not surprised. I haven't heard it not working yet (except in cases where people do it wrong.)

Except for the trib and creatine, your list is essentially Unleashed and POST-CYCLE without the liver detoxifiers and anti-e's. But you took Nolva. Try POST-CYCLE next time and you may not need the Nolva.

 

[dzuljas]

scooty two hottie....didnt u have a fucked up liver or something a year ago???? Mabye its time to lay off the sauce man

 

[Goldprospector]

Just my 2 cents...I don't have the experience as others on this board and I have only done 1 cycle of 8 weeks. I am sure I was suppressed at the end but I don't know if there are different levels of suppression either...Anyway, I had total intentions of using Nolva (instead of Clomid) for my PCT, but then PF came out with the Post Cycle herbs. So I did 10 day of Nolva and 4 weeks of herbs @ 4 caps per day. I havent been on them for 2 weeks now and I "feel" totally recovered, though I have not had any blood work done. I am back to "Natural" and my strength gains are still increasing each week and I feel great.

I will use Post Cycle herbs after my next cycle. I don't care if it is phsycologiacl or not...the mind can heal as good or better than drugs!

 

[The_Ghost]

Glad to hear it worked, but not surprised. I haven't heard it not working yet (except in cases where people do it wrong.)

Except for the trib and creatine, your list is essentially Unleashed and POST-CYCLE without the liver detoxifiers and anti-e's. But you took Nolva. Try POST-CYCLE next time and you may not need the Nolva.

Can't use Post-Cycle until the boys make it without R-ala. Damn Canadian government

 

[Nighthawkk]

I don't caer what people may think....trib/avena sativa + nolv/clomid has been one of my best recoveries, lost only 2lbs last post-cycle (sust/deca) and it was just water.

 

[twistedneck]

SCOTTY, I too had a crash like this but i'm not sure if it was from Nizroal and Spiro use. I was on a homemade brew of Tongkat Ali, Avena Sativa, Tribilus Terestris, and Calcium D. I was taking about 5g / day total and i felt great, got all types of face zits, etc.. Then after about 2 months of it, i suddenly had ZERO sex drive. Got freaked out, went to the doc and boom.. my test was down to 360. AT this same time i began doing daily hair washings with Nizoral 2% and Spironolactone cream 2% at night along with Azelaic Acid and Rogaine 2x / day.

Since then I've dropped it all and 6 weeks later I feel great. Great libido, good moods.. etc.

Lesson, no such thing as a free lunch. good luck bro.

 

[Mr. Black]

Can't use Post-Cycle until the boys make it without R-ala. Damn Canadian government

Actually Bigdawg, R-ALA is perfectly legal in Canada. I have some sitting in my fridge.

 

[The_Ghost]

Actually Bigdawg, R-ALA is perfectly legal in Canada. I have some sitting in my fridge.

Hmmm myself and others I know have had it turned back. Motherfuckers!!!!!!

I do know my province is worse then most places with Customs.

 

[Mr. Black]

I'm assuming its the N-Acetyl Cysteine that is not allowed in Canada. BTW which province you in?

 

[The_Ghost]

I'm assuming its the N-Acetyl Cysteine that is not allowed in Canada. BTW which province you in?

I am in Manitoba and have been told by Companies in the US that MB has a lot of rejections for things.