Today's 5 x 5 workout and some fun facts

[Jim Ouini]

One thing I like about the cleans, ATF squats and box squats is that there's no longer any question about body English in the row or whether I'm going low enough in a squat.

You know one of my missed squat sets I asked my wife to check my depth and as I'm approaching parallel she's saying 'No....No....No...' as I'm lowering the bar.

Talk about having negative thoughts in your head!

Anyway, thanks for the input. Are you keeping the box at the same height from workout to workout? I think you mentioned you feel most comfortable with a box just short of parallel.

I think the 'box' I'll probably use at my gym is just past parallel, which I think makes it pretty hard to use that ultra-wide stance.

 

[blut wump]

lol, teach her the word 'almost'.

My 'box' is the crunch table thing which is always just beside the squat rack at my gym. It's pretty close to parallel but just a shade above. On Friday I spotted a seat by the Smith machine which people use for sitting in while doing their overhead presses which is an inch or so lower so I might switch now that I'm getting accustomed to the box squats.

They really hit your glutes and the tops of your hams. I put a post on the 5x5 thread and madcow said that they'd be a big help to deadlifts. It was b_fold who suggested going really wide but that might just have been to help out Anthrax's knees. It's still a very new exercise for me.

You could take a between-week to try out some of these alternative exercises. If they click with you then just call it week1 and carry on.

 

[Madcow2]

In all honesty the 5x5 is just not setup (the dual factor) for learning a lift and especially the powerclean. Building to records etc.. kind of assumes you know how to perform the lift and you have an idea of your capacity with reasonable technique. The clean and snatch take a fair amount of technique work to get down. I'd really encourage you to find a local coach through www.usaweightlifting.org and get a few sessions. Teaching yourself is an excellent way to ingrain horrible habits that will be very hard to break. Lifting heavy too fast is a great way to get injured. Even a few sessions can make a night and day difference. I'd really rather see someone do basic clean or snatch pulls unless they are going to really put effort into the lift and get it right. There are some vids linked on my TOC that have a host of OL and OL variants videoed.

This isn't like learning to squat or press, and someone who knows what they are doing makes a huge world of difference in getting you going and building decent technique as fast as possible. In one session with a coach you will agree.

 

[Jim Ouini]

lol, teach her the word 'almost'.

Oh she knows that one, just uses it in a different context

They really hit your glutes and the tops of your hams. I put a post on the 5x5 thread and madcow said that they'd be a big help to deadlifts. It was b_fold who suggested going really wide but that might just have been to help out Anthrax's knees. It's still a very new exercise for me.

I actually tried them as part of my warmup way back in Wk 2 or 3 - I can't remember - with a slightly below parallel box and probably maxed at 245 for 2 or 3 reps. I could definitely feel my glutes/hams having to fire after relaxing my hip flexors.

I'd really rather see someone do basic clean or snatch pulls unless they are going to really put effort into the lift and get it right.

Oh that might be better since I kind of wanted to do the power shrugs you mentioned in another thread.

General question: I assume these cleans won't affect my Wed dead and vice versa?

 

[blut wump]

I had a concern about using the same muscles for cleans as for deadlifting and whether one would impinge on the other. My experience is limited but, if anything, I'd say the cleans are helping with the deadlifting. I'll have a better idea on Wednesday since my last stab at the 5x5 had me drained after week3 deadlifting and I'll be going another 5Kg up on that weight.

Regarding the cleans, madcow is obviously right and the cleans are too strenuous to be used as an ancillary exercise. I'll doubtless post my logs when I get to the end and hope they won't merely serve as an example of someone's folly.

 

[Madcow2]

General question: I assume these cleans won't affect my Wed dead and vice versa?

It's best to sub out the rows and put them in that M/F slot. They shouldn't cause any issue with the dead unless you are training them too heavy to get good explosion.

 

[Jim Ouini]

I had a concern about using the same muscles for cleans as for deadlifting and whether one would impinge on the other. My experience is limited but, if anything, I'd say the cleans are helping with the deadlifting. I'll have a better idea on Wednesday since my last stab at the 5x5 had me drained after week3 deadlifting and I'll be going another 5Kg up on that weight.

Regarding the cleans, madcow is obviously right and the cleans are too strenuous to be used as an ancillary exercise. I'll doubtless post my logs when I get to the end and hope they won't merely serve as an example of someone's folly.

That'd be great if you could post your log since this is your 2nd run through as well and we're doing a lot of the same exercises.

I think I read you were considering a 4 day split to save energy for deads/heavy Fri squat - is that what you decided on?

It's best to sub out the rows and put them in that M/F slot. They shouldn't cause any issue with the dead unless you are training them too heavy to get good explosion.

Yeah that was my plan. I read back to the original Starr program and he has Power Clean instead of BB row and High Pull instead of pull-ups.

So I'm thinking to do Clean Pull instead of BB row on M/F, and keep the Wed pull ups.

 

[Madcow2]

The high pull is in place of the dead. I'm not sure if there's pullups or not. Can't hurt doing them.

 

[Jim Ouini]

The high pull is in place of the dead. I'm not sure if there's pullups or not. Can't hurt doing them.

Ulp, you're right.

Hm, so reading through this link again
http://www.deepsquatter.com/strength/archives/manrodt4.htm

Deadlifts, or Speed Deadlifts can be substituted with Powercleans if you so desire. Powercleans are pretty popular among football players for working on explosiveness. They are not as specific for the powerlifter, but they can add strength to your traps and shoulders as well as thicken up your back. They can also improve speed-strength.

Interesting that he'd have deadlifting 2x week and on the same day as heavy squatting...

I don't want to make it too complicated, obviously the program worked very well for me as you had laid out, so the 'tweaks' I'm considering were more just because I was interested in some of these other exercises.

 

[Madcow2]

Yeah - I'm not a fan of that subsitution. I can see some speed deads at lower intensity levels but the clean pull will give you what you are looking for.

http://www.uwlax.edu/strengthcenter/videos/video_index.htm - Clean Pull Low