This is the question we all want answered...

[cobracock1979]

OK,

I have sort of hijacked other threads to ask this question, and never ever seem to give a definative answer. I can't find one, though I have researched a lot.

This is basically the question, and I reckon if it get answered this is thread of the MONTH material.

"On a No Carbs, high fat/ high protein diet AND a large calorie surplus...CAN I BURN FAT WHILST GAINING LARGE AMOUNTS OF LBM?"

It make's sense - if I eat 6000 cals a day with no carbs, high EFA'a and High protein (and of cource BB training regime) why would I not gain quality muscle, but burn fat for energy, as my body cannot turn to Glycogen?

Southernlord/ sparta/ one-breath/tat? Any takers?

 

[desmond]

My take on this is not based on experience but evolution.

The human body had to adapt to a variety of diets. Frequently this was low carb (keto). If humans couldn't gat bodyfat under such diets, they would have died pretty quickly whenever there was any type of faminine. A hunter's meals would be sporadic - hence, they'd have to be able to accumulate some fat for times of little food.

(see also J Hale: You are probably referring to the theory that assumes insulin and blood levels of fat should never be raised at the same time. This theory assumes that insulin is the key contributor to obesity. There are a few things wrong with this line of thought. One of the key problems is not recognizing something called Acylation Stimulating Protein. Acylation stimulating protein (ASP) is a hormone produced by adipocytes and is of importance for the storage of energy as fat.... http://www.alanaragon.com/bodybuild...agon-will-brink-jamie-hale-layne-norton.html]

Hence, I do not see why a calorie surplus (beyond that which can be converted into LBM) will not be converted into fat, even on keto.

 

[cobracock1979]

Good point.

However Its the same as any bulking diet - just the right amount of surplus lkads to LBM only. Excessive surplus leads to LBM + Fat.

So a relatively low surplus on Keto should give the same effects as a low surplus on a standard diet...ie LBM and no fat gains, with fat loss from the keto...???

 

[Rage-Of-Sparta]

i think it will stil come down to calories in > calories out
carb cals or fat cals will still be stored if they are not burned off
eventually your body will get used to the high fat intake and your fat burning
will stall out
i think it would be a great experiment to try because it sounds good in theory
and anything you read by Dave Palumbo will advocate low carb and high fat diets
although i feel that carbs are more anabolic (at certain times) than fat but
you could still make good gains with fat only

 

[cobracock1979]

i think it will stil come down to calories in > calories out
carb cals or fat cals will still be stored if they are not burned off
eventually your body will get used to the high fat intake and your fat burning
will stall out
i think it would be a great experiment to try because it sounds good in theory
and anything you read by Dave Palumbo will advocate low carb and high fat diets
although i feel that carbs are more anabolic (at certain times) than fat but
you could still make good gains with fat only

Yeah, I see the cals in vs cald out, but back to my point.

If I grow and add no fat at 3500 cals in a carb diet, surely I will get the same growth from a 3500 cals on a NO CARBS diet, with the added effect of fatburning from the ketosis on top?

 

[OneBreath]

Yeah, I see the cals in vs cald out, but back to my point.

If I grow and add no fat at 3500 cals in a carb diet, surely I will get the same growth from a 3500 cals on a NO CARBS diet, with the added effect of fatburning from the ketosis on top?

I don't think it will happen quite as naturally as you think. At least it didn't for me. When i did the anabolic diet, the way i attempted the coveted recomposition (with fair success) was the following:

Mon-Fri: High Fat/No Carbs
Weekends: Carbup

Saturday: Rest (some cardio maybe)
Sunday: heavy workout 1 (still carbing up with high cals)
Monday: heavy workout 2 (high cals)
Tuesday: heavy workout 3 (high cals)
Wednesday: heavy workout 4 (high cals)
Thursday: cardio (low cals)
Friday: cardio (low cals)

So the strategy was Sun-Wed: i'm still coming off my carbup with great strength and intensity in the gym and i'm taking in about 4,000 cals. These were the building days.

Thur and Fri were fat burning days. By this time of the week i was glycogen depleted and would only do cardio and eat around 3,200 cals.

Good luck!

 

[cobracock1979]

Thanks bro,

i had some good success on a CKD which was similar, however I was much newer to diet then and didnt calculate my m,acro's or daily cals. I suspect I was under maintenence, but on AAS! Total recomposition and about 7lbs lean mass.

Any other takers?

 

[Tatyana]

I had no idea what I was doing the first time I carb depleted, and I was only slightly better the first time I started to low carb diet.


I think I was really hoping there was some magical macronutrient ratio that would just have the fat fall off, and there isn't.

There are so many factors, some people do really well on carbs, others don't.

Our bodies can also turn protein into fat.

I think recomp is more about the training intensity and making sure that you get enough rest and protein. As there are so many cofactors for enzymes, getting your vitamins and minerals preferably in the form of fruits, veggies, nuts and seeds is important.

The other two macronutrients,well, again, down to biochemical individuality.

 

[access]

i think it will stil come down to calories in > calories out

^^You can't forget this, it always comes into the equation.^^

 

[desmond]

Good thread

Most people except Rage of Sparta's point (which i highlighted below). If this is true and cals in v cals out is also true, then doesn't it follow that a high fat diet/ketoesque diet will lead to more fat storage, because
(1) the diet is less anabolic
(2) therefore less muscle can be gained
(3) therefore, less of the calorie surplus is used for muscle gain, more then by the cals in v cals out rule is stored as fat.

I know of course anabolic diet proponents don't see it quite like that and some on the board (SOuthernLord I think) are reporting much greater success with high fat bulking.

Onebreath:

What you did looks interesting, but its hard to know whether the recomp is b/c of the carb cycling or the calorie cycling (i.e., its kinda like a zig zag diet). Have you tried calorie cycling without the carb cycling and been able to determine which one was more successful? I can see obviously the advantages of cycling both however, simply b/c on those anabolic days, a degree of glycogen depletion acts as a buffer to fat gain.

i think it will stil come down to calories in > calories out
carb cals or fat cals will still be stored if they are not burned off
eventually your body will get used to the high fat intake and your fat burning
will stall out
i think it would be a great experiment to try because it sounds good in theory
and anything you read by Dave Palumbo will advocate low carb and high fat diets
although i feel that carbs are more anabolic (at certain times) than fat but
you could still make good gains with fat only

 

[Omegasox]

With that much of a caloric surplus, the extra calories have to go somewhere. They cannot ALL be used for muscle building. Carbs are not the be all, end all of putting on weight.

 

[cobracock1979]

With that much of a caloric surplus, the extra calories have to go somewhere. They cannot ALL be used for muscle building. Carbs are not the be all, end all of putting on weight.

I understand this,

But I repeat again - I am talking about a small surplus of cals, ie 500 cals.

Right now I go about 500 cals over on a carb diet and grow well.

Naturally, an excessive surplus will lead to fat as well as LBM.

 

[desmond]

Cobra, unfortunately your not going to find an answer. If there was a definitive diet sticky that worked for everyone, we'd all be on it.

The best your going to get is anecdotal reports. I know Southern Lord gets superior results from high fat bulking; Tat is starting to try it. So some prefer high fat; some high carbs. Results will vary.

Mod/high carb bulking would seem better to me simply b/c:

- insulin is anabolic, and isn't a "bogeyman" when bulking for lean individauls (hence milk is a good bulking food)
- carbs are (at least IMO) the preferred source of energy for high intensity exercise

The contrary argument is that high fat bulking I guess would increase testosterone levels and lower insulin levels will mean less fat storage (still find this argument hard to understand in the calorie surplus context - it makes more sense to me in the cal deficit context because it will determine I guess the degree to which muscle/fat is used to fuel the cal deficit).

And if you are willing to spend the money, leucine is highly insulingenic and you could use a fair bit of it like Layne Norton does for its anabolic properties to negate the otherwise lack of insulin effect on a high fat diet.

 

[access]

Cobra, unfortunately your not going to find an answer. If there was a definitive diet sticky that worked for everyone, we'd all be on it.

The best your going to get is anecdotal reports. I know Southern Lord gets superior results from high fat bulking; Tat is starting to try it. So some prefer high fat; some high carbs. Results will vary.

Mod/high carb bulking would seem better to me simply b/c:

- insulin is anabolic, and isn't a "bogeyman" when bulking for lean individauls (hence milk is a good bulking food)
- carbs are (at least IMO) the preferred source of energy for high intensity exercise

The contrary argument is that high fat bulking I guess would increase testosterone levels and lower insulin levels will mean less fat storage (still find this argument hard to understand in the calorie surplus context - it makes more sense to me in the cal deficit context because it will determine I guess the degree to which muscle/fat is used to fuel the cal deficit).

And if you are willing to spend the money, leucine is highly insulingenic and you could use a fair bit of it like Layne Norton does for its anabolic properties to negate the otherwise lack of insulin effect on a high fat diet.

This is an excellent insight Des and I really like your thinking here. I would have to agree with these points BUT clearly different approaches work very differently for each individual so experimentation is needed to find your best diet format.

Cobra a 500 surplus is not by any means excessive and I think you should try your theory and let us know how it works for you.

 

[cobracock1979]

This is an excellent insight Des and I really like your thinking here. I would have to agree with these points BUT clearly different approaches work very differently for each individual so experimentation is needed to find your best diet format.

Cobra a 500 surplus is not by any means excessive and I think you should try your theory and let us know how it works for you.

LOL,

I know its not excessive thats what I been Sayin!!!!

Anyway, thanks for chiming in, as well as scientific mechanisms I am also lookin for other bro's experiences, so anyone else with input holla!

I have just started a 16 week cycle - first 10 weeks Im gonna lean bulk on 3500cals (low carb/ mod fats), then last 6 weeks Im gonna shoot for 3500cals 0 carb diet, with a carb up every 4 days - see if I can lean out and continue to gain LBM...

Ill keep y'all posted.

 

[cobracock1979]

This is an excellent insight Des and I really like your thinking here. I would have to agree with these points BUT clearly different approaches work very differently for each individual so experimentation is needed to find your best diet format.

Cobra a 500 surplus is not by any means excessive and I think you should try your theory and let us know how it works for you.

Bro,

Whe you say leucine is highly insulingenic, you mean it shuttles nutrients to the muscles?

 

[desmond]

Bro,

Whe you say leucine is highly insulingenic, you mean it shuttles nutrients to the muscles?

Protein elicits an insulin effect. Whey for example has quite a high insulin effect: Log In Problems (this also discusses the insulingenic properties of the BCAA's).

I will post something about leucine as soon as I get it - but Laynre Norton, Alan Aragon have written about leucine's insulingenic properties before

The reason for the gap between Milk's GI and II is likely the nature of the proteins.

 

[desmond]

Also see Alan Aragon's comments in BB Roundtable: Will Brink, Jamie Hale, Layne Norton, Alan Aragon - Bodybuilding.com Forums regarding "megadosing highly insulingenic BCAA"

Also see Layne nortons comments at www.australia-bodybuilding.com/Layne Norton Frequently Asked Questions.doc

This qualifies my earlier comments, and adds a complexity to it that is somewhat beyond my understanding of nutrition. He states:

"insulin responses are complex. when insulin is released in response to carbohydrates it is in 2 phases... the first phase is the release of stored insulin and about 15-20 minutes after that insulin rises again from produced insulin in the pancreas, in other words the insulin response is biphasic. The insulin response to leucine is only monophasic... only stored insulin is released, but the pancreas does not produce a secondary insulin response. Basically leucine only causes a release of stored insulin. Therefore i'd so no, it's not sufficient if you are looking for a decent insulin response"


Note Layne Norton is a big proponent of leucine - and states its the only amino acid to independently cause protein synthesis.

 

[cobracock1979]

awesome, thanks bro I didnt know that....

 

[desmond]

There is heaps of info in that Layne Norton doc on a wide range of subjects too - interesting reading

 

[access]

This is an excellent thread. Thanks for posting those links Des.

Look forward to updates cobra!

 

[OneBreath]

Des, ive never done any calorie cycling (at least intentionally). This was actually my first attempt at carb cycling. You are right that the calories going up and down probably had just as much to do with success as the macros. I actually never thought of it that way. At the time i was just focusing on taking as much advantage as possible of those 2 fully depleted days (Thur/Fri).

Good thread.

 

[cobracock1979]

Onebreath, they call it Zig-zaggging. Apparently a lotta bodybuilders just do it completely randomly with no pattern of high/ low days. Keeps the metabolism on its toes.

I think Im correct in thinking carb cycling is just a variation of calorie cycling? My last carb cycle was 0/0 medium/high.

Onebreath, are you always keeping cals above maintenance on ur carb cycle?

 

[ironwings]

Great thread, I love following this! Thanks desmonf for posting those articles - I am still processing them.

 

[cobracock1979]

Thread of the week... :-0

 

[cobracock1979]

Yeah, Des comes up with some great stuff, thx bro