This is the question we all want answered...

[Omegasox]

With that much of a caloric surplus, the extra calories have to go somewhere. They cannot ALL be used for muscle building. Carbs are not the be all, end all of putting on weight.

 

[cobracock1979]

With that much of a caloric surplus, the extra calories have to go somewhere. They cannot ALL be used for muscle building. Carbs are not the be all, end all of putting on weight.

I understand this,

But I repeat again - I am talking about a small surplus of cals, ie 500 cals.

Right now I go about 500 cals over on a carb diet and grow well.

Naturally, an excessive surplus will lead to fat as well as LBM.

 

[desmond]

Cobra, unfortunately your not going to find an answer. If there was a definitive diet sticky that worked for everyone, we'd all be on it.

The best your going to get is anecdotal reports. I know Southern Lord gets superior results from high fat bulking; Tat is starting to try it. So some prefer high fat; some high carbs. Results will vary.

Mod/high carb bulking would seem better to me simply b/c:

- insulin is anabolic, and isn't a "bogeyman" when bulking for lean individauls (hence milk is a good bulking food)
- carbs are (at least IMO) the preferred source of energy for high intensity exercise

The contrary argument is that high fat bulking I guess would increase testosterone levels and lower insulin levels will mean less fat storage (still find this argument hard to understand in the calorie surplus context - it makes more sense to me in the cal deficit context because it will determine I guess the degree to which muscle/fat is used to fuel the cal deficit).

And if you are willing to spend the money, leucine is highly insulingenic and you could use a fair bit of it like Layne Norton does for its anabolic properties to negate the otherwise lack of insulin effect on a high fat diet.

 

[access]

Cobra, unfortunately your not going to find an answer. If there was a definitive diet sticky that worked for everyone, we'd all be on it.

The best your going to get is anecdotal reports. I know Southern Lord gets superior results from high fat bulking; Tat is starting to try it. So some prefer high fat; some high carbs. Results will vary.

Mod/high carb bulking would seem better to me simply b/c:

- insulin is anabolic, and isn't a "bogeyman" when bulking for lean individauls (hence milk is a good bulking food)
- carbs are (at least IMO) the preferred source of energy for high intensity exercise

The contrary argument is that high fat bulking I guess would increase testosterone levels and lower insulin levels will mean less fat storage (still find this argument hard to understand in the calorie surplus context - it makes more sense to me in the cal deficit context because it will determine I guess the degree to which muscle/fat is used to fuel the cal deficit).

And if you are willing to spend the money, leucine is highly insulingenic and you could use a fair bit of it like Layne Norton does for its anabolic properties to negate the otherwise lack of insulin effect on a high fat diet.

This is an excellent insight Des and I really like your thinking here. I would have to agree with these points BUT clearly different approaches work very differently for each individual so experimentation is needed to find your best diet format.

Cobra a 500 surplus is not by any means excessive and I think you should try your theory and let us know how it works for you.

 

[cobracock1979]

This is an excellent insight Des and I really like your thinking here. I would have to agree with these points BUT clearly different approaches work very differently for each individual so experimentation is needed to find your best diet format.

Cobra a 500 surplus is not by any means excessive and I think you should try your theory and let us know how it works for you.

LOL,

I know its not excessive thats what I been Sayin!!!!

Anyway, thanks for chiming in, as well as scientific mechanisms I am also lookin for other bro's experiences, so anyone else with input holla!

I have just started a 16 week cycle - first 10 weeks Im gonna lean bulk on 3500cals (low carb/ mod fats), then last 6 weeks Im gonna shoot for 3500cals 0 carb diet, with a carb up every 4 days - see if I can lean out and continue to gain LBM...

Ill keep y'all posted.

 

[cobracock1979]

This is an excellent insight Des and I really like your thinking here. I would have to agree with these points BUT clearly different approaches work very differently for each individual so experimentation is needed to find your best diet format.

Cobra a 500 surplus is not by any means excessive and I think you should try your theory and let us know how it works for you.

Bro,

Whe you say leucine is highly insulingenic, you mean it shuttles nutrients to the muscles?

 

[desmond]

Bro,

Whe you say leucine is highly insulingenic, you mean it shuttles nutrients to the muscles?

Protein elicits an insulin effect. Whey for example has quite a high insulin effect: Log In Problems (this also discusses the insulingenic properties of the BCAA's).

I will post something about leucine as soon as I get it - but Laynre Norton, Alan Aragon have written about leucine's insulingenic properties before

The reason for the gap between Milk's GI and II is likely the nature of the proteins.

 

[desmond]

Also see Alan Aragon's comments in BB Roundtable: Will Brink, Jamie Hale, Layne Norton, Alan Aragon - Bodybuilding.com Forums regarding "megadosing highly insulingenic BCAA"

Also see Layne nortons comments at www.australia-bodybuilding.com/Layne Norton Frequently Asked Questions.doc

This qualifies my earlier comments, and adds a complexity to it that is somewhat beyond my understanding of nutrition. He states:

"insulin responses are complex. when insulin is released in response to carbohydrates it is in 2 phases... the first phase is the release of stored insulin and about 15-20 minutes after that insulin rises again from produced insulin in the pancreas, in other words the insulin response is biphasic. The insulin response to leucine is only monophasic... only stored insulin is released, but the pancreas does not produce a secondary insulin response. Basically leucine only causes a release of stored insulin. Therefore i'd so no, it's not sufficient if you are looking for a decent insulin response"


Note Layne Norton is a big proponent of leucine - and states its the only amino acid to independently cause protein synthesis.

 

[cobracock1979]

awesome, thanks bro I didnt know that....

 

[desmond]

There is heaps of info in that Layne Norton doc on a wide range of subjects too - interesting reading