This is the question we all want answered...

[cobracock1979]

OK,

I have sort of hijacked other threads to ask this question, and never ever seem to give a definative answer. I can't find one, though I have researched a lot.

This is basically the question, and I reckon if it get answered this is thread of the MONTH material.

"On a No Carbs, high fat/ high protein diet AND a large calorie surplus...CAN I BURN FAT WHILST GAINING LARGE AMOUNTS OF LBM?"

It make's sense - if I eat 6000 cals a day with no carbs, high EFA'a and High protein (and of cource BB training regime) why would I not gain quality muscle, but burn fat for energy, as my body cannot turn to Glycogen?

Southernlord/ sparta/ one-breath/tat? Any takers?

 

[desmond]

My take on this is not based on experience but evolution.

The human body had to adapt to a variety of diets. Frequently this was low carb (keto). If humans couldn't gat bodyfat under such diets, they would have died pretty quickly whenever there was any type of faminine. A hunter's meals would be sporadic - hence, they'd have to be able to accumulate some fat for times of little food.

(see also J Hale: You are probably referring to the theory that assumes insulin and blood levels of fat should never be raised at the same time. This theory assumes that insulin is the key contributor to obesity. There are a few things wrong with this line of thought. One of the key problems is not recognizing something called Acylation Stimulating Protein. Acylation stimulating protein (ASP) is a hormone produced by adipocytes and is of importance for the storage of energy as fat.... http://www.alanaragon.com/bodybuild...agon-will-brink-jamie-hale-layne-norton.html]

Hence, I do not see why a calorie surplus (beyond that which can be converted into LBM) will not be converted into fat, even on keto.

 

[cobracock1979]

Good point.

However Its the same as any bulking diet - just the right amount of surplus lkads to LBM only. Excessive surplus leads to LBM + Fat.

So a relatively low surplus on Keto should give the same effects as a low surplus on a standard diet...ie LBM and no fat gains, with fat loss from the keto...???

 

[Rage-Of-Sparta]

i think it will stil come down to calories in > calories out
carb cals or fat cals will still be stored if they are not burned off
eventually your body will get used to the high fat intake and your fat burning
will stall out
i think it would be a great experiment to try because it sounds good in theory
and anything you read by Dave Palumbo will advocate low carb and high fat diets
although i feel that carbs are more anabolic (at certain times) than fat but
you could still make good gains with fat only

 

[cobracock1979]

i think it will stil come down to calories in > calories out
carb cals or fat cals will still be stored if they are not burned off
eventually your body will get used to the high fat intake and your fat burning
will stall out
i think it would be a great experiment to try because it sounds good in theory
and anything you read by Dave Palumbo will advocate low carb and high fat diets
although i feel that carbs are more anabolic (at certain times) than fat but
you could still make good gains with fat only

Yeah, I see the cals in vs cald out, but back to my point.

If I grow and add no fat at 3500 cals in a carb diet, surely I will get the same growth from a 3500 cals on a NO CARBS diet, with the added effect of fatburning from the ketosis on top?

 

[OneBreath]

Yeah, I see the cals in vs cald out, but back to my point.

If I grow and add no fat at 3500 cals in a carb diet, surely I will get the same growth from a 3500 cals on a NO CARBS diet, with the added effect of fatburning from the ketosis on top?

I don't think it will happen quite as naturally as you think. At least it didn't for me. When i did the anabolic diet, the way i attempted the coveted recomposition (with fair success) was the following:

Mon-Fri: High Fat/No Carbs
Weekends: Carbup

Saturday: Rest (some cardio maybe)
Sunday: heavy workout 1 (still carbing up with high cals)
Monday: heavy workout 2 (high cals)
Tuesday: heavy workout 3 (high cals)
Wednesday: heavy workout 4 (high cals)
Thursday: cardio (low cals)
Friday: cardio (low cals)

So the strategy was Sun-Wed: i'm still coming off my carbup with great strength and intensity in the gym and i'm taking in about 4,000 cals. These were the building days.

Thur and Fri were fat burning days. By this time of the week i was glycogen depleted and would only do cardio and eat around 3,200 cals.

Good luck!

 

[cobracock1979]

Thanks bro,

i had some good success on a CKD which was similar, however I was much newer to diet then and didnt calculate my m,acro's or daily cals. I suspect I was under maintenence, but on AAS! Total recomposition and about 7lbs lean mass.

Any other takers?

 

[Tatyana]

I had no idea what I was doing the first time I carb depleted, and I was only slightly better the first time I started to low carb diet.


I think I was really hoping there was some magical macronutrient ratio that would just have the fat fall off, and there isn't.

There are so many factors, some people do really well on carbs, others don't.

Our bodies can also turn protein into fat.

I think recomp is more about the training intensity and making sure that you get enough rest and protein. As there are so many cofactors for enzymes, getting your vitamins and minerals preferably in the form of fruits, veggies, nuts and seeds is important.

The other two macronutrients,well, again, down to biochemical individuality.

 

[access]

i think it will stil come down to calories in > calories out

^^You can't forget this, it always comes into the equation.^^

 

[desmond]

Good thread

Most people except Rage of Sparta's point (which i highlighted below). If this is true and cals in v cals out is also true, then doesn't it follow that a high fat diet/ketoesque diet will lead to more fat storage, because
(1) the diet is less anabolic
(2) therefore less muscle can be gained
(3) therefore, less of the calorie surplus is used for muscle gain, more then by the cals in v cals out rule is stored as fat.

I know of course anabolic diet proponents don't see it quite like that and some on the board (SOuthernLord I think) are reporting much greater success with high fat bulking.

Onebreath:

What you did looks interesting, but its hard to know whether the recomp is b/c of the carb cycling or the calorie cycling (i.e., its kinda like a zig zag diet). Have you tried calorie cycling without the carb cycling and been able to determine which one was more successful? I can see obviously the advantages of cycling both however, simply b/c on those anabolic days, a degree of glycogen depletion acts as a buffer to fat gain.

i think it will stil come down to calories in > calories out
carb cals or fat cals will still be stored if they are not burned off
eventually your body will get used to the high fat intake and your fat burning
will stall out
i think it would be a great experiment to try because it sounds good in theory
and anything you read by Dave Palumbo will advocate low carb and high fat diets
although i feel that carbs are more anabolic (at certain times) than fat but
you could still make good gains with fat only