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oklahoma86
New member
Thanks Nelson for the first post of the thread, it was VERY clear and concise (haha... and a little bit easier reading than Needto's "Steroids 101"!!), and to Needto for ALL the personal help since I joined a couple months ago. Im on my first cycle ever and figuring out what PCT to follow was the most difficult part to work out - finding the oil was easy - and even for a first timer its counterintuitive to think that an OTC product is gonna work better than something that is "prescription"... especially when the person telling you to buy it is the person who makes it!!
However, since I have NO experience, and these guys have quite a bit, not to mention an already large following, I figured I would do better to go off their advice than make up my own regimen, especially when they can completely explain the answer to every skeptical (and generally uninformed) question I had (basically, "why is your method so much better than what EVERYONE ELSE is advocating?"). After spending LOTS of time researching/obssessing about the best on cycle support and trying to find evidence that NTBM's products are a scam (Google it - you wont find ANYTHING bad!!) and PCT I have come to realize they know their shit!!
These guys have dedicated their lives to figureing out solutions to the problems WE, the guys in the gym, experience. Not trying to tailor and bend existing drugs and protocols from other areas into effective solutions for issues that are only SIMILAR, at best. The thing you gotta keep in mind is that even though Nolva, etc are powerful and proven prescription drugs, NONE of them were designed with steroid users in mind, they are only prescribed by doctors because they treat SYMPTOMS that are common to both their indicated, approved user and those experienced by the steroid user going off cycle. They are basically a 'duct tape an baling wire' type fix, no matter how old or widely used, to the question of how to maximize a cycle while on, then come off smoothly (i.e. someone tried it out and nobody died, so it must WORK, so why try something different! haha) , and are only prescribed for this by doctors because that is the current, and stagnated, school of thought... correct me if Im wrong, but there really are no ongoing medical studies about how to properly PCT, PERIOD, its not like doctors know something the rest of us cant look up! No Universities or research labs are spending time on proper PCT procedures for exactly the same reason they arent doing studies on the most effective and safe methods of cooking meth - and I guaruntee there IS one way thats safer than another - because cooking meth is illegal in the first place, just like using steroids! As such, no matter how groundbreaking the results of any study's findings might be it would be a moot point, so no one will fund the study!... And I dont know a whole lot about the supplement industry, but no supplements that I can think of have much extensive testing to back them up as a product. All of the indiviual ingredients IN the product generally do but thats not the same thing! Usually the data on the product its self is VERY limited. As far as why NTBM dont have studies to back up their products... I cant speak for em, but I kind of get the impression they DO have research and studies, or they wouldnt know what to put in those little capsules they sell us!!! Thats why the ingredients are what they are in the amounts theyre present in their products, they didnt just pull these ingredients and dosages out of their ass! LOL.
Im guessing there are just no published 3rd party studies (which I think is really what NYCDIESEL wants, is 3rd party studies). However, I know that clinical trials and tests are expensive, and would have to be self funded (which destroys credibility anyway) because there IS no 3rd party to test and approve them, if universities and other traditional sources of research and research funding wont do it then it would seem the only legitimate alternative would be to go a step further and try getting FDA approval AS A DRUG!!! If you dont know, FDA approval for ANYTHING is a proccess that takes YEARS of studies on HUGE populations of every potential user imaginable, MILLIONS of dollars, and years of beaurocratic paper-shuffling before a drug is approved... and then, if you want it approved for another use, you have to go through the same thing again. Only the large pharmaceutical companies can afford to do this, and as I mentioned earlier, since steroids are illegal for performance enhancement, the FDA isnt gonna spend time on a drug that adresses the side effects and eventualities of such use anyway. Why deal with that - or even 3rd party studies that are going to be disputed anyway - when you have this large of a base of loyal customers who swear by your products because they have worked for them EVERY TIME? Id rather the money go to developing new and existing products, or in these guys pockets. The deserve it!
I was a skeptic, and I could still be wrong - Im still on that first cycle - but all the on cycle support products I have purchased are working exactly as advertised, I have the ability to PERSONALLY CONTACT the person who owns the company/brands I buy from (where else can you get that?), and I spend hours a day reading posts... on sites BESIDES EF as well... that say the same thing that I am experiencing. I couldnt ask for more, and can say I use NTBM and MRSUPPS products with complete confidence. I have no affiliation with them beyond being a satisfied user, but after all the supplements that I have tried over the last few years while working out naturally that did ABSOLUTLY NOTHING but had plenty of graphs on the box and articles from real medical journals cited that dealt with specific ingredients - often with glowing reports - I just feel lucky that I gave them a chance, as I had completely sworn off everything but protein shakes as complete marketing bullshit... kind of the reason I looked into AAS in the first place!
Thanks Needto, an if anybody thinks Im just on this guys dick and hasnt tried his products, just PM him out of nowhere like I did (I dont know him personally), tell him what you are trying to accomplish, and he will give you pertinant advice. When you order, expect NOTICABLE RESULTS. And at any point he'll give you your money back - 100% - even if the bottle is gone and even if it worked, but just not up to your expectations!!! Thats what he said, I cant vouch for the return policy follow through, but thats just cause Im just gonna re-order when my supps are gone!
However, since I have NO experience, and these guys have quite a bit, not to mention an already large following, I figured I would do better to go off their advice than make up my own regimen, especially when they can completely explain the answer to every skeptical (and generally uninformed) question I had (basically, "why is your method so much better than what EVERYONE ELSE is advocating?"). After spending LOTS of time researching/obssessing about the best on cycle support and trying to find evidence that NTBM's products are a scam (Google it - you wont find ANYTHING bad!!) and PCT I have come to realize they know their shit!!
These guys have dedicated their lives to figureing out solutions to the problems WE, the guys in the gym, experience. Not trying to tailor and bend existing drugs and protocols from other areas into effective solutions for issues that are only SIMILAR, at best. The thing you gotta keep in mind is that even though Nolva, etc are powerful and proven prescription drugs, NONE of them were designed with steroid users in mind, they are only prescribed by doctors because they treat SYMPTOMS that are common to both their indicated, approved user and those experienced by the steroid user going off cycle. They are basically a 'duct tape an baling wire' type fix, no matter how old or widely used, to the question of how to maximize a cycle while on, then come off smoothly (i.e. someone tried it out and nobody died, so it must WORK, so why try something different! haha) , and are only prescribed for this by doctors because that is the current, and stagnated, school of thought... correct me if Im wrong, but there really are no ongoing medical studies about how to properly PCT, PERIOD, its not like doctors know something the rest of us cant look up! No Universities or research labs are spending time on proper PCT procedures for exactly the same reason they arent doing studies on the most effective and safe methods of cooking meth - and I guaruntee there IS one way thats safer than another - because cooking meth is illegal in the first place, just like using steroids! As such, no matter how groundbreaking the results of any study's findings might be it would be a moot point, so no one will fund the study!... And I dont know a whole lot about the supplement industry, but no supplements that I can think of have much extensive testing to back them up as a product. All of the indiviual ingredients IN the product generally do but thats not the same thing! Usually the data on the product its self is VERY limited. As far as why NTBM dont have studies to back up their products... I cant speak for em, but I kind of get the impression they DO have research and studies, or they wouldnt know what to put in those little capsules they sell us!!! Thats why the ingredients are what they are in the amounts theyre present in their products, they didnt just pull these ingredients and dosages out of their ass! LOL.
Im guessing there are just no published 3rd party studies (which I think is really what NYCDIESEL wants, is 3rd party studies). However, I know that clinical trials and tests are expensive, and would have to be self funded (which destroys credibility anyway) because there IS no 3rd party to test and approve them, if universities and other traditional sources of research and research funding wont do it then it would seem the only legitimate alternative would be to go a step further and try getting FDA approval AS A DRUG!!! If you dont know, FDA approval for ANYTHING is a proccess that takes YEARS of studies on HUGE populations of every potential user imaginable, MILLIONS of dollars, and years of beaurocratic paper-shuffling before a drug is approved... and then, if you want it approved for another use, you have to go through the same thing again. Only the large pharmaceutical companies can afford to do this, and as I mentioned earlier, since steroids are illegal for performance enhancement, the FDA isnt gonna spend time on a drug that adresses the side effects and eventualities of such use anyway. Why deal with that - or even 3rd party studies that are going to be disputed anyway - when you have this large of a base of loyal customers who swear by your products because they have worked for them EVERY TIME? Id rather the money go to developing new and existing products, or in these guys pockets. The deserve it!
I was a skeptic, and I could still be wrong - Im still on that first cycle - but all the on cycle support products I have purchased are working exactly as advertised, I have the ability to PERSONALLY CONTACT the person who owns the company/brands I buy from (where else can you get that?), and I spend hours a day reading posts... on sites BESIDES EF as well... that say the same thing that I am experiencing. I couldnt ask for more, and can say I use NTBM and MRSUPPS products with complete confidence. I have no affiliation with them beyond being a satisfied user, but after all the supplements that I have tried over the last few years while working out naturally that did ABSOLUTLY NOTHING but had plenty of graphs on the box and articles from real medical journals cited that dealt with specific ingredients - often with glowing reports - I just feel lucky that I gave them a chance, as I had completely sworn off everything but protein shakes as complete marketing bullshit... kind of the reason I looked into AAS in the first place!
Thanks Needto, an if anybody thinks Im just on this guys dick and hasnt tried his products, just PM him out of nowhere like I did (I dont know him personally), tell him what you are trying to accomplish, and he will give you pertinant advice. When you order, expect NOTICABLE RESULTS. And at any point he'll give you your money back - 100% - even if the bottle is gone and even if it worked, but just not up to your expectations!!! Thats what he said, I cant vouch for the return policy follow through, but thats just cause Im just gonna re-order when my supps are gone!
Soon as it's back in stock I'm buying some 
