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The need to go to failure ...
- Thread starter sk*
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Bulldog_10
New member
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: ...............
12 reps isn't better than 3 reps for definition...i never said anything like that. That's more of a diet thing.
The mind/body thing, not even an argument...it's fact, not opinion.
If you want I'll quote a few things for you...might take a while...but i'll do it.
sk* said:
12 reps isn't better than 3 reps for definition...i never said anything like that. That's more of a diet thing.
The mind/body thing, not even an argument...it's fact, not opinion.
If you want I'll quote a few things for you...might take a while...but i'll do it.
Bulldog_10
New member
Here are a couple things to hold you over...There is a shitload I could type up...but I'm tired, and typing sucks. So you can feel free to find the rest yourself.
This is from “Weight Training: A specific Approach”
“Due to central nervous sytem overadaptation, monotonous routines will limit (muscle) adaptation and progress, even though overwork may not be the cause…The basic principles of training are frequency, duration, intensity, variation, and most importantly, specificity. These principles must be considered in all training programs; applying them properly reduces the potential for overtraining. The concept of periodization, originally proposed by Matveyev in 1961, embodies and manipulates these basic training principles in a manner that reduces the potential for overtraining and brings performanceto optimum or peak levels…Generally, overtraining can be reduced through variation in volume (frequency and duration) and intensity (average weight), and through variationin the amount of techniqueand other specialized work performed…Further studies, primarily European sports scientists, strongly suggest the establishment of volume and intensity variations on the mesocycle (months) and microcycle (weekly) level further reduce the possibility of overtraining and enhance performance peaks…Volume is high at the beginning of the beginning of the period and decreases toward the climax; intensity begins relatively low and increases…To date seventeen research projects investigating the effectiveness of this model compared to other training programs have been completed…two papers have been published describing the basic concepts and presenting some of the early data and observations about the superiority of this model of strength-power training over more traditional methods.”
“Hypertrophy stage:
During this phase two important adaptations, BEYOND THOSE OF TYPICAL PROGRAMS, can be expected to occur. The first is a positive change in body composition. High volume training (8-12 reps/set) has been shown to produce greater gains in LBM (hypertrophy) and greater decreases in percentages of fat than low volume training. Increases in muscle mass (hypertrophy) increase an athlete’s potential to gain strength and power. A second important adaptation occurring with high volume training is an increase in short-term endurance…”
This is from “five steps to increasing the effectiveness of your strength training program” By Charles Poliquin, one of the best strength and conditioning coaches in the world.
“One must note that strength training programs lose their efficiency after only TWO WEEKS since the body adapts very rapidly to the stress of training loads…A common mistake seen in strength training programs…is linear intensification, that is, moving ever increasing intensities.”
This is from “Weight Training: A specific Approach”
“Due to central nervous sytem overadaptation, monotonous routines will limit (muscle) adaptation and progress, even though overwork may not be the cause…The basic principles of training are frequency, duration, intensity, variation, and most importantly, specificity. These principles must be considered in all training programs; applying them properly reduces the potential for overtraining. The concept of periodization, originally proposed by Matveyev in 1961, embodies and manipulates these basic training principles in a manner that reduces the potential for overtraining and brings performanceto optimum or peak levels…Generally, overtraining can be reduced through variation in volume (frequency and duration) and intensity (average weight), and through variationin the amount of techniqueand other specialized work performed…Further studies, primarily European sports scientists, strongly suggest the establishment of volume and intensity variations on the mesocycle (months) and microcycle (weekly) level further reduce the possibility of overtraining and enhance performance peaks…Volume is high at the beginning of the beginning of the period and decreases toward the climax; intensity begins relatively low and increases…To date seventeen research projects investigating the effectiveness of this model compared to other training programs have been completed…two papers have been published describing the basic concepts and presenting some of the early data and observations about the superiority of this model of strength-power training over more traditional methods.”
“Hypertrophy stage:
During this phase two important adaptations, BEYOND THOSE OF TYPICAL PROGRAMS, can be expected to occur. The first is a positive change in body composition. High volume training (8-12 reps/set) has been shown to produce greater gains in LBM (hypertrophy) and greater decreases in percentages of fat than low volume training. Increases in muscle mass (hypertrophy) increase an athlete’s potential to gain strength and power. A second important adaptation occurring with high volume training is an increase in short-term endurance…”
This is from “five steps to increasing the effectiveness of your strength training program” By Charles Poliquin, one of the best strength and conditioning coaches in the world.
“One must note that strength training programs lose their efficiency after only TWO WEEKS since the body adapts very rapidly to the stress of training loads…A common mistake seen in strength training programs…is linear intensification, that is, moving ever increasing intensities.”
D
Debaser
Guest
I have to disagree here. Variety is what causes lots of trainees to get nowhere. You'd be surprised how many people will something like this:
3 weeks WSB
Musclemag 5 day volume split for a month
HIT for 2 weeks
Half a cycle of HST
Flex massmonster program
When they haven't gained 20 lbs in 2 weeks, they feel like their program isn't working. They can't even devote 12 weeks to a routine. In doing so they neglect the absolute most-important rule for building muscle:
Weight progression.
Whether it's consistant strength gains or progressive loading (HST) the principals are the same. You need to be adding weight to that bar constantly. If you've reached the point where your gains are stalled and everything else is in top shape (diet, rest, willpower etc.) then you need to take some time off, then start back up again with less weight than before. This is called intensity cycling. It is all about working towards a common goal: more iron.
I mean, if variety were the key to growth, why are there so many continually successful DC, HST, and westside trainees? Generally the people that want to mix it up, are on a traditional split. Since many of these are ineffective or inefficient, they believe that their body has somehow adapted to it, and need to try something else. When in fact all they needed all along was a more productive training protocol.
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: ...............
From my understand what you are saying by this:
"If you always lift heavy, you'll be strong, but you won't get too big...and you'll overtrain. If you always lift light, high reps...you'll grow at first, but you won't get much stronger...and you'll overtrain."
is that higher reps are better for bodybuilders while lower reps are better for strength athletes. Am I misunderstanding?
-sk
Bulldog_10 said:
From my understand what you are saying by this:
"If you always lift heavy, you'll be strong, but you won't get too big...and you'll overtrain. If you always lift light, high reps...you'll grow at first, but you won't get much stronger...and you'll overtrain."
is that higher reps are better for bodybuilders while lower reps are better for strength athletes. Am I misunderstanding?
-sk
Bulldog_10
New member
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: ...............
yeah, that's pretty much it...but it's not so cut and dry...i was exaggerating. You'll grow either way...it's just that different things are BETTER for different goals.
If you read "weight training: a specific approach" you'll see what I'm talking about. There are a shitload of other books, articles, etc out there that say basically the same thing, but I like that one in particular. Check it out if you can find it.
sk* said:
yeah, that's pretty much it...but it's not so cut and dry...i was exaggerating. You'll grow either way...it's just that different things are BETTER for different goals.
If you read "weight training: a specific approach" you'll see what I'm talking about. There are a shitload of other books, articles, etc out there that say basically the same thing, but I like that one in particular. Check it out if you can find it.
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: ...............
I've heard the theories on it, I just miss the point on why???????
If 12reps is better for purely muscle building (and not so much strength), then wouldn't 100reps be even better?
Out of curiousity, when was that book written and by who?
Thanks.
-sk
Bulldog_10 said:
I've heard the theories on it, I just miss the point on why???????
If 12reps is better for purely muscle building (and not so much strength), then wouldn't 100reps be even better?
Out of curiousity, when was that book written and by who?
Thanks.
-sk
Bulldog_10
New member
Debaser said:
You're right, if you don't give something a sufficient time trial, then no you will not see great gains. But I'm not talking about switching between training styles...just varying your volume and intensity.
So you're not really switching programs, you're staying with the same program (periodization). It focuses on training the neuromuscular system as a whole, instead of just the muscle...which people all too often don't do.
Bulldog_10
New member
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: ...............
Well, because if you do 100 reps, the intensity would be pretty much zero...12 reps is in the high zone. The way you say it, you could also say, "if going low reps is good, why not do -3 reps?" It's just not feasible.
I actually don't know who wrote the book...they gave us excerpts from it in the suggested readings for the Strength and Conditioning staff at my school. There are a few chapters that I have in front of me, but it doesn't say who wrote it.
sk* said:
I've heard the theories on it, I just miss the point on why???????
If 12reps is better for purely muscle building (and not so much strength), then wouldn't 100reps be even better?
Out of curiousity, when was that book written and by who?
Thanks.
-sk
Well, because if you do 100 reps, the intensity would be pretty much zero...12 reps is in the high zone. The way you say it, you could also say, "if going low reps is good, why not do -3 reps?" It's just not feasible.
I actually don't know who wrote the book...they gave us excerpts from it in the suggested readings for the Strength and Conditioning staff at my school. There are a few chapters that I have in front of me, but it doesn't say who wrote it.
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: ...............
The intensity will be high towards the last few reps bro ...
If you do, for example, incline dumbbell bench with a weight that you can do for 12reps ... do you even feel the first rep? I know that the first few reps don't even affect me. Just pointing that out to say that there is no intensity in the first few reps in a higher rep range training ... so how is it good for bb purposes? Again, if 12 is better than 3reps ... wouldn't 100 be better than 12reps?
-sk
Bulldog_10 said:
The intensity will be high towards the last few reps bro ...
If you do, for example, incline dumbbell bench with a weight that you can do for 12reps ... do you even feel the first rep? I know that the first few reps don't even affect me. Just pointing that out to say that there is no intensity in the first few reps in a higher rep range training ... so how is it good for bb purposes? Again, if 12 is better than 3reps ... wouldn't 100 be better than 12reps?
-sk
