The need to go to failure ...

[sk*]

Finding the right amount of intensity and volume is the key to your progress. It takes time to find that.

B True

That's probably the most important part of training ...

-sk

 

[casualbb]

For casual, there are studies that prove HIT methods are superior, in fact there is a 400+ page book full of them called "Maximizing Your Training", a great read, if a little clinical since a bunch of MDs and PhDs wrote it.

do you want to post some? I'm not gonna go out and buy the book.

Since nobody wants to listen to me listen to animalmass instead:

That being said I can now continue...HIT popularized by Mike mentzer (hope this doesnt open up the proverbial can of worms!)is based on the premise that If you don't take your sets to failure, then you are not presenting your body with the stimulus to adapt because you can perform the appropriate amount of reps. Therefore as you take your reps to failure, you are presenting the stimulus by forcing your body to cope with something that it cannot do (remeber the original post!). Consequently you adapt because you have forced yourself to do something that it simply cannot do...seems logical and simple right! But you have to ask yourself, why are so many powerlifters muscular if they dont train to failure? as with olympic lifters!

...I take you back to the theory of rate coding..essentially you fail in an exercise because there are not sufficiently rested muscle fibres to perform the task...at the end of the set the only fibres that arent fatigued are the low threshold high endurance motor units..which dont have the neccessary force producing capabilities to perform the work.

I take you back now to the theory of supercompensation and the subesequent breakdown and buildup theory that dictates that muscle damage (catabolism) has to occur for the increase in proetin synthesis to occur!...

...Research has shown that the most muscle damage occurs during the negative paotion of the exercise (sarcomere popping!)...this is because less muscle fibres are recruited to perform the eccentric movemnt resulting in a greater stress on those fibres...consequently by increasing the time that the muscle fibres are under tension (most tension is generated during -ve portion) there in theory is a better stimulus for muscle growth! ... from this it seems that more tension can be generated by taking a set to failure than stopping short because it would take longer to perform! keep this in mind!

...Back to rate coding (seems pretty important doesnt it?) as the moment of failure draws closer the CNS will innervate all the motor units it can to perform the reps and fire them as often as it can...however as fatigue sets in there is a reduction in firing frequency (up to around 70-80% I think!), consequently the rate of twitching is not high enough to continue the exercise...thus failure occurs.

...back to neural factors...as a nueron fires it has to release the neurotransmitter Acetyl Choline so that the message can be carried...as mentioned previoulsy the electrical current is passed down the axon due to the na+ and K+ (when people refer to electrolites in sports drinks like gatorad, lucozade, these is what they are refering to), and the K+ Na+ atp ase pump... as failure approaches (lack of firing) the electrolites become taxed...as failure occurs these are virtually depleted...it is speculated that another of the major factors in fatigue is the inability of the motor neurons to create and release acetylcholine (ACh) fast enough so that transmission of the action potential can be maintained from the neron to the muscle...

It can be said that ability to produce force is dependant on power speed and frequency of the 'electrical impulse elicited by the CNS to contract a muscle...as fatigue develops there is a mared decrease in the speed of these signals, as this occurs inhibitory mechanisms (mentioned previuos) stop further contrcations occuring....

...However due to emotional factors lke psyching oneself up it is possible to extend the time until these inhibitory mechanisms take effect(fight or flight syndrome)...there is a ditinct relationship between this and catecholamine levels...

...Therfore I hope that you can see that failure may not occur due to the peripheral (muscle) factors but the Central ones...failure may not be due to muscular fatigue but neural inhibition...the CNS does this for one simple reason: SO THAT IT CAN REST AND RECOVER!

...If we are to believe the supercompensation theory muscle fibers need to produce appropriate tension for a long enough period of time to cause damage breakdown...this has the effect of growth factors to be released in the cells Calcium levels within the cell must increase toperpetuate both Catabolism and the required anabolic effect. Growth stimuli may also be provided by the fatigue metabolites building up (phosphate and hydrogen ions) due to elevated levels of lactic acid . Please note that [none] of these reactions occur because of muscular failure!

It may become evident that failure is actaully detrimental (note to John this would neccessiate the two factor theory, that has always been rejected by bodybuilders) because too much stress occurs (especially if inadequate rest intervals are used)...this would facilitate the increasing levels of fatigue resulting in a faster establishment of the Overtraining syndrome!

-casual

 

[SofaGeorge]

Re: ...............

SofaGeorge if failure is so great why stop at concentric? why not go to static and eccentric failure as well?

There are many top physiques that have demonstrated that it can be VERY effective to do that. (i.e, training to ABSOLUTE FAILURE) This is the World of Dorian Yates and Mike Mentzer.

Then there is FAILURE. This has produced top physiques too. This is the world of Frank Zane and Arnold.

Then there is NOT GOING TO FAILURE. Sorry... I can't name any legends here.

Bottom line... you have arguements that people can make on paper... but when it comes to real world results the bodybuilders with great foundation physiques ALL go to failure. I've seen the results of sub-failure training for more than 25 years. These guys NEVER look as good as the bodybuilders who push it to the end.

B-Fold is 100% correct, though. The real key is finding the optimal level of intensity that is going to push your personal growth to its limit. That isn't going to fit into anyone's predefined workout philosophy.

 

[casualbb]

Then there is NOT GOING TO FAILURE. Sorry... I can't name any legends here.

How about all great powerlifters?

Seriously, why should what makes powerlifters big NOT make bodybuilders big? We're all humans. They don't have different kinds of muscles.

-casual

 

[sk*]

Seriously, why should what makes powerlifters big NOT make bodybuilders big? We're all humans. They don't have different kinds of muscles.

-casual

Yea, I was trying to argue this before. How come it will work for one and not the other?

-sk

 

[SofaGeorge]

Yea, I was trying to argue this before. How come it will work for one and not the other?

-sk

Muscle mass and the strength of the muscle don't equate.

I know many 200 lbs powerlifters who easily out lift 260 lbs pro bodybuilders.

The pro bodybuilder's that I saw at Gold's Venice had much more muscle mass than strength. I saw pro bodybuilders struggling with weights that amateur powerlifters would use for warm ups.

Logic doesn't always equal real world results.

 

[Mike_Rojas]

Muscle mass and the strength of the muscle don't equate.

I know many 200 lbs powerlifters who easily out lift 260 lbs pro bodybuilders.

The pro bodybuilder's that I saw at Gold's Venice had much more muscle mass than strength. I saw pro bodybuilders struggling with weights that amateur powerlifters would use for warm ups.

Logic doesn't always equal real world results.

Isn't that because their bodies are bloated from all the drugs?

 

[Bulldog_10]

Re: Re: Re: ...............

Back it up bro ... (the comments about high/low rep training)

And variation if the key to mind tricks. Altering your workout helps the mind cope with it and, imo, that is why you grow better ... it isn't because the "body" feels the variation but moreso the mind. IMO.

-sk

It's a fact bro...needs no backing up (damnit, I sound like nelson!). Your body adapts to your training routine after about 2 weeks...so your workouts become inefficient. It is optimal to change it up every 4 weeks...check out some articles on periodization.

 

[casualbb]

But you're missing the point. Despite training for strength, what powerlifters do makes them quite big. Obviously one doesn't need to train to failure to get big, otherwise there'd be no big powerlifters.

Your argument ignores that.

-casual

 

[Bulldog_10]

But you're missing the point. Despite training for strength, what powerlifters do makes them quite big. Obviously one doesn't need to train to failure to get big, otherwise there'd be no big powerlifters.

Your argument ignores that.

-casual

You're going to grow no matter how your train (barring OVER-training), the question is what makes you grow MORE. Obviously if you train for strength, you're gonna get stronger, and grow...but if you train for growth, you'll grow more, but won't be as strong. However, you can't just train one way, or you're not going to gain at all after a while...that's why people hit plateaus.