Squatting for Quads?

[casualbb]

I'm almost done with my 4th HST cycle. One of my major changes this cycle was I went from leg press to high bar, olympic-style full squats as my main quad exercise.

I basically squat to below parallel with a shoulder-width stance. I really do sit back into it. It seems like I'm feeling it mostly in my hams and ass. For instance, in revisiting my old 5RM on squats, I my quads started to tire out on the last rep, but I kinda grit my teeth and just...ASSed the bar up. It was the strangest thing, but it helped to explain why...

I've noticed that my quad growth seems lacking while my ham and glute growth is off the charts. Not that I'm not pleased, I mean, who doesn't want a bigger ass, but I started squatting with the goal of quad development. So far my quads have added like .5 inches this cycle, but my hips a full inch. Is there anything I should do or change? Front squats maybe? Just looking for some ideas.

-casual

 

[spatts]

I don't think of squats as being for the quads, and the lower you go the more hamstring you recruit...so what you're saying sound like simple physics to me.

If you want to waste your quads, prefatigue them and then squat, and like you said FRONT SQUATS!

 

[nanotitan]

Front SQs are a good choice. You might also want to try a closer stance on your back squats and reducing your focus on sitting back.

 

[endpoint]

squat down and not back

 

[SofaGeorge]

Spatts... how do you suggest "pre-exhausting" quads?

 

[spatts]

Just about any isoaltion move should do...like extensions. Front squats would do it too.

I wouldn't compromise my safety by squatting down instead of back just for the sake of adding a measly inch to my quads. It would be better to do front squats.

 

[Mike_Rojas]

I built my quads by squatting down instead of back... Now these guys are teaching me to squat back.

Squats were the only leg exercise I did. I used shoulder wide stance and squatted deep and my knees were out in front. Guess it's not the safest thing to do.

 

[Citruscide]

I stand on a couple of nickels under my heels... with my stance closer in, tends to hit my quads more than my hammies... then I back it up with zercher squats to nail my hams and glutes.

c-ditty

 

[nanotitan]

Thinking it through, I agree with spatts, just stick to front SQs. Back squatting with your hams and glutes is a skill and an asset, you don't want to ruin that when you could easily add your desired quad size with another exercise.

 

[endpoint]

I wouldn't compromise my safety by squatting down instead of back just for the sake of adding a measly inch to my quads. It would be better to do front squats.

there are safe ways to squat down.....I cant see how it is dangerous

Do you consider this down or back?:
http://138.9.1.58/athleticperformance/exercise videos/Leg Lift videos/back squat.mpg

 

[spatts]

C ditty that just sounds totally backwards to me. First, the idea of squatting on plates makes me cringe, but to each his own. Front squats should be hitting your quads damn hard, and regular squats should hit your hams hard. I have no idea why you'd be backwards. Do you have vids?

There's not alot wrong with your knees coming forward a little when you're ATF because your HAMSTRINGS get recruited and protect your knee in that sitch.

I squatted wrong most of my life, but learning to squat right didn't make my quads shrink...it just made my hams grow.

Perhaps right and wrong is a little extreme, but the point I'm trying to get at is that when someone tells me their squats are working their hams, my first inclination is to say, "Congratulations! You're doing it right!" Not, "That's odd."

 

[endpoint]

Im going to go as far as to say: there are two types of squating.

the powerlifting type (siting back, wider stance)

and back squating.....

 

[spatts]

So becca swanson...who squats almost 700 narrow and sits back...and is a powerlifter...what's she doing?

Not all PLers squat wide.

Irrespective, the more verticle your shins are, the more protected the knee opening. This is just biomechanics. It's not partial to your goal.

 

[endpoint]

So becca swanson...who squats almost 700 narrow and sits back...and is a powerlifter...what's she doing?

a hybrid!

you are missing the real issue here.

 

[spatts]

Please explain it to me then, because this is what I know to be true...based on biomechanics and experience:

Stance. This varies from individual to individual, but one thing is necessary for all who wish progress: you must keep your feet flat on the deck at all times. The center of gravity may be maintained over the center of the foot, but it is generally best to push through the heels. This will help in maintaining bar position and help eliminate a small degree of forward lean. To achieve this, some people find it necessary to curls the toes upward while squatting, forcing their heels flat. The feet should be placed at least shoulder width apart, and some individuals may best utilize a stance nearly twice shoulder width. The narrower stance tends to place more direct emphasis on the quads, and creates a longer path for the bar to travel. The wider stance (often called “sumo”) tends to be favored by many powerlifters, although some have enjoyed great success with a relatively narrow stance. The sumo stance place more emphasis on the adductors and hamstrings. As a rule of thumb, lifters with longer legs will need a wider stance than shorter individuals. However, there are exceptions. A wider stance will tend to recruit both the adductors and buttocks to a greater degree than a narrow stance. (1)

The shins should be a close to vertical as possible throughout the entire movement. This lessens the opening of the knee joint, and reduces the shearing force as well. By reducing the workload that the knee joint is required to handle, more of the work is accomplished by the larger muscles around the hip joint. For powerlifters, this decreases the distance one must travel with the bar, as the further the knee moves forward, the lower the hips must descend to break parallel.

There are several schools of thought on squat depth. Many misinformed individuals caution against squatting below parallel, stating that this is hazardous to the knees. Nothing could be further from the truth. (2) Stopping at or above parallel places direct stress on the knees, whereas a deep squat will transfer the load to the hips,(3) which are capable of handling a greater amount of force than the knees should ever be exposed to. Studies have shown that the squat produces lower peak tibeo-femoral(stress at the knee joint) compressive force than both the leg press and the leg extension.(4) For functional strength, one should descend as deeply as possible, and under control. (yes, certain individuals can squat in a ballistic manner, but they are the exception rather than the rule). The further a lifter descends, the more the hamstrings are recruited, and proper squatting displays nearly twice the hamstring involvement of the leg press or leg extension, (5,6) and as one of the functions of the hamstring is to protect the patella tendon(the primary tendon involved in knee extension) during knee extension through a concurrent firing process, the greatest degree of hamstring recruitment should provide the greatest degree of protection to the knee joint. (7) When one is a powerlifter, the top surface of the legs at the hip joint must descend to a point below the top surface of the legs at the knee joint.

 

[endpoint]

Please explain it to me then.

some people train for quad strength and development.

some people train for hamstring and glute development.


I am going to sound rude here.....but im feeling a repeat of elitefts.com. One sided powerlifting arguments.

westside have some of the strongest squatters in the world......but they arent going for a "quad sweep" or a big C&J.

the squat is a compound movement that involves many different muscles, different stances, or positions can cause different muscle recruitment.

the only reason dave and louie are telling you to squat back is because they want you to involve more hamstrings.....which in turn will give you a bigger powerlifting squat in the long run.

i dont want a big powerlifting squat.

 

[spatts]

Oh boy...the westside argument. I thought we were going to argue unbiased biomechanics.


LOL...that article isn't from elitefts. It's from a very well respected olympic lifter. The kind that squats low, knees forward, etc.

 

[endpoint]

Oh boy...the westside argument. I thought we were going to argue unbiased biomechanics.


LOL...that article isn't from elitefts. It's from a very well respected olympic lifter. The kind that squats low, knees forward, etc.

let me read the article first....It wasnt there when i posted

 

[endpoint]

Okay so we both agree that the positioning can affect the muscle recruitment?

how verticle is verticle? how many degrees is considered unsafe?

many say as long as the knee caps dont extend over the toes. how do you feel about that.

 

[spatts]

I'd say that's pretty safe...I suppose you don't know until your knee cap shoots out the side of your leg.

 

[endpoint]

I'd say that's pretty safe...I suppose you don't know until your knee cap shoots out the side of your leg.

just ask eddy coan.

are we agreeing to disagree?

i agree with what you say.....but wont squat like a powerlifter

 

[spatts]

Hm...I think we're agreeing that you disagree that you can't see that I'm agreeing with you.

KARMA for you!

For the record, Ed squatted all knees caving in, knees way over the toes...all the stuff I gripe about. Project and Hannibal and I watched his video, and thought, "That won't last long!" We were all in pain just watching it. It doesn't surprise me at all that he blew his knee.

 

[endpoint]

ha okay.

everything is taking me a while today. I just woke up after 12 hours and 40 mins of sleep.

and yes hamstrings are heavily involved no matter what......it is a compound movement.

jeez maybe i should skip work today

 

[spatts]

jeez maybe i should skip work today

Now you're getting the hang of it! Are you sure you're not a powerlifter? lol

 

[endpoint]

Now you're getting the hang of it! Are you sure you're not a powerlifter? lol

damn cant send you karma.

im a powerlifter at heart......but if i skip work i wont be able to use the beatiful glute ham raise machine......that gets used for sit ups.

also i would miss out on on 3/4 squats, deadlifts upright rows reverse curls.....um sorry i mean cleans.

all i need is a goatee and some chuck taylors.

who wrote that article? i think i have read it before.

 

[spatts]

Arioch: Squat Theory and Exectution. Sticky on the PL board.

They use the GHR for abs? And only abs?

How sad.

 

[endpoint]

Arioch: Squat Theory and Exectution. Sticky on the PL board.

They use the GHR for abs? And only abs?

How sad.

ah thats why i recgonise it...jeez i miss him.

they dont use it right. (the GHR) they use it like a hyperextension bench, and wonder why they dont feel it where they should

I am only new there.....and still on a volunteer probation. and im pushing my luck...so i cant comment.

I got the badest "evil eyes" from a coach, when i butted into a conversation on why his athlete wasnt performing pushpress properly...i have learnt to shut up and do what they say

 

[Tarheel]

A quick question spatts.

Why does squatting on plates make you cringe? Is it because of the grip (or lack of) they offer since you like to spread the floor, or is it because of the angle they put your foot in?

I've never squatting on plates, but lots of us squat with elevated heels.

 

[IronLion]

Endpoint, why do you belive ine a narrow, vertical squat?

 

[spatts]

Pushing through the heels helps to recruit the hammies which increases the safety of the squat (as outlined above).

 

[Tarheel]

Ok, I understand where you're coming from.

Sometimes I've found while olympic squatting that I not only am pushing thru my heels, but the weight is so far back that I have lost my balance and fallen backwards. Here is an example where elevated the heels will aid your stability. Not really a problem for parallel squatting though.

I'd like to remind some readers who may not know this that elevating the heels *may* make it possible to squat deeper, which will increase hamstring recruitment and saftey. If you lack the flexibility to squat ATF, then raising the heels my allow you to, either by using an olympic lifting shoe with elevated heels or by placing your heels on a board or plate. Most people I know roll backwards when they try to olympic squat.

 

[endpoint]

Endpoint, why do you belive ine a narrow, vertical squat?

because its my new religion!

I feel its better for overall leg strength, front to back, for my oly lifts.

for other people....knee strength and stabilty.

keep in mind i avocate good delopment for hamstrings, i think they play a very large role in knee health and sports specifity......even more than quads, but that doesnt mean that quads should be forgoten about

 

[spatts]

Tarheel, oly shoes that are built to raise the heel, I understand. That helps with balance for those who need it. Personally, I can go ATF in a 48" stance with an overhead squat, no problem. I understand that not everyone has alot of hip flexibility. I really feel that shoes with an even taper from back to front are safer than plates. The center of your foot, when standing on a plate, has ZERO support. Also the shoes are maybe a 1/2 inch of help, whereas I occassionally see people standing on quarters or other plates that are much higher....even less support to the center of the foot.

To me, this balance issue has more to do with keeping the bar over the hips than whether or not you are using more hamstring or quad.

Endpoint, I do my front squats ATF, but my shins are still vertical. I suppose this is just a flexibility thing too? They hit my abs and quads SO hard.

 

[Tarheel]

Wow!, most impressive!

Right now I cant even break parallel with a 36" inside to inside foot spacing, I use about 12" when I go ATF....

 

[coolcolj]

A narrow/med (shoulder width) stance squat has greater ROM - just like a close grip bench or pullup does

Which is what you want when the squat is a means to and end, rather than an end in itself

Obviously the bar has to be always above your heels, so as you move your hips forward/back, your back angle changes to keep the bar in the right place. So hips forward, more knee bend, upright torso. Hips back, less knee bend, more forward lean.
Now if you widen your stance you reduce this effect, since now the hip and knees are both closer to the centre of gravity.

For what it's worth I used to squat hips back - really far, back, I had problems staying balanced, in fact my toes were in the air, and this causes me to lean more foward to keep the bar over the heels (centre of gravity). I had in fact fallen backward several times because your right on the edge of stability.
My quads never grew until I switched to my curent Oly style form, now I get even quad/hip/ham developement, whereas before it was mainly glutes and a bit of ham.

 

[endpoint]

To me, this balance issue has more to do with keeping the bar over the hips than whether or not you are using more hamstring or quad.

Endpoint, I do my front squats ATF, but my shins are still vertical. I suppose this is just a flexibility thing too? They hit my abs and quads SO hard.

yes flexibilty.....and great strength to hold the correct position.
maybe limb length and all that other stuff (which we didnt mention in previous discussions)too

I feel like i have done a 1000 sit ups the day after front squats

 

[SeymourCuts]

Due to structural differences, not everyone can pull off every stance and style of Squat while maintaining their balance and a straight back. Structure will also determine load biases in different stances. For me, I don't get significantly more stress in my quads and about the same amount of stress in my glutes when doing Front Squats as Olympic style Back Squats. If I wanted to significantly increase quad stress, I would pre-exhaust with Leg Extensions as they are the least stressful means for the CNS, and I would forego any sort of plates under the heels as they can cause excess shearing forces on the knees and foot arches.

 

[blinddeafmute]

I have learned a lot from this thread. Very good topic.

I have some questions though.

I have had a hard time keeping my balance doing squats. I cant seem to keep my back straight, knees behind toes, and balance all at the same time. I feel like I am bening forward way too much when I do them. I have been doing box squats to help keep myself back. I do feel like I have to lean forward to get up off of the box though. I might not be leaning forward as much as it feels like. Does this sound normal? I am going to try to get a digital camera and take shots to post sometime, as this has always been a concern of mine.

Another thing that has been stirring in my mind the past couple of days. I am doing DC training and noticed that I DO feel my squats more in my hams than I do in my quads. Originally when I set up my routine, I would do squats and ham curls in the same workout and nothing else for quads. Everything I had read (like on exrx.net) said that squats targeted the quads and that hams were either a synergist, or stablizer. I havent felt like my quads get hit very hard from squats now. Should I switch out the ham curls for leg extensions or sissy squats or something, or should I maybe just add a quad exercise to my existing routine. Remember that DC is only suposed to be 1 workset per muscle group.

I do seem to feel a major hit in my quads when I do deads. Are they the same way as squats? Should I be feeling them more in my hams and ass? Deads seem to hit all my muscle groups the same, all the way up to the back of my neck.

 

[spatts]

Issue 1: Could be core and hip strength, would need to see a vid.

Issue 2: Squats are compound. Your quads are gonna get hit either way. Some people are just looking for that extra burn in the quad. I think properly done narrow ATF squats or front squats are great for that.

Issue 3: Feeling deads in the quads is news to me, but they do get worked, so I don't see why not. Stance will effect this as well.

 

[blinddeafmute]

Maybe its just because deads are a new exercise for me. I have only done them a couple of times.

I stand with my feet at about shoulder width when doing them, not very wide at all.

I do have a very week core. I would have to say that it is my worst area. I have a dull ache in my lower back all of the time that wont go away too. Im about ready to go to a chiropractor for it.

Should I stick with a lower weight on squats until my core gets stronger? I dont seem to have much of a problem with deads.

I am stick thin and 6'3" tall. That probably has a lot to do with it.

 

[spatts]

I would definitely prioritize core strength. Get the back, hips, obliques, and abs feeling strong and healthy.

 

[guldukat]

I've noticed that my quad growth seems lacking while my ham and glute growth is off the charts. Not that I'm not pleased, I mean, who doesn't want a bigger ass, but I started squatting with the goal of quad development. So far my quads have added like .5 inches this cycle, but my hips a full inch. Is there anything I should do or change? Front squats maybe? Just looking for some ideas.

-casual [/B]

Front squats aren't a bad idea.

And incidentally, I don't want a bigger ass. Mine is huge. I'm not real lean at the moment by any means, but even ripped, I've got like a Ronnie Coleman ass. Great asset (haha!) in squats, deadlifts, and leg presses, but aesthetically, I hate it.

 

[BodybuildingUniverse]

traditional deep squatting with a close stance (feet only 6 inches apart or so) has always blown my quads up.

I have seen powerlifters with HUGE squats and very poor leg development and I have seen BBers with HUGE quads and medicocre squat poundages. Both types of athletes are going for different results of course.

All depends what you are going for, the wide stance powerlifting squats, in my opinion, while great for adding to your total —_dont seem to equate to highly muscled quads. Go narrow on your squats and leg presses and watch the quads grow. My $.02

 

[spatts]

I suppose I'm an exception...I'm all quad.

 

[crew9]

traditional deep squatting with a close stance (feet only 6 inches apart or so) has always blown my quads up.

I have seen powerlifters with HUGE squats and very poor leg development and I have seen BBers with HUGE quads and medicocre squat poundages. Both types of athletes are going for different results of course.

All depends what you are going for, the wide stance powerlifting squats, in my opinion, while great for adding to your total —_dont seem to equate to highly muscled quads. Go narrow on your squats and leg presses and watch the quads grow. My $.02

Do you think that a very narrow stance with a deep front squat would work even better for blowing up the quads?

 

[casualbb]

Thanks for bringing the thread back on topic, guldukat...

Maybe I'll try front squats. I'll be changing things around next cycle. Currently I do one set each of squat and SLDL each day. It's no small wonder my ass blew up; two ass-heavy movements 3 times a week?

For hammies, I'll be either alternating SLDL with leg curl, or doing 2 leg curls to every one SLDL. I do think deadlifts are important, but I'd rather target the hams at this point.

For squats, I'll try maybe alternating front squats with either leg press or leg extension.

My lower back does get kinda fatigued doing both squats and SLDL each day, hence the alternating.

-casual

 

[Vortexx]

Kim Chizevsky (Kimtimidating quads) says she always starts with leg-extensions to pre-fatique the quads and moves to heel elevated medium-narrow stance squats next, not below parallel, mainly to tax the quads and keep the squad ass away. It works, There are no females out there who can match here leg seperation and while you will find a very few females with her legsize, they usually have a garbagetruck sized ass to come with it.

 

[coolcolj]

Do you think that a very narrow stance with a deep front squat would work even better for blowing up the quads?

You will be leaning too far forward with a narrow stance in Front squats, that will engaging the glutes more. Use a wider stance to stay vertical and it will be mostly quads/hams.

Or do dumbell deadlift squats

 

[vinylgroover]

It works, There are no females out there who can match here leg seperation and while you will find a very few females with her legsize, they usually have a garbagetruck sized ass to come with it.

Separation has nothing to do with the way an exercise is performed.

Casual, as far as i'm concerned, the best way to perform the squat is the way that feels most comfortable (within reason of course). If you don't feel comfortable during an exercise, then u leave yourself wide open to injury.

I have always felt squats in my quads......as well as hams, glutes etc. Mid stance

Front squats for me are a no no due to my lower back.......i just think the cost/benefit of exercises like front squats is not worth it.

 

[casualbb]

Good advice...unfortunately what feels best for me is to have a widish stance and heavy ass involvement. It's weird, to go heavy on squats I almost can turn off my quads and push more from the ass. I may scrap squats altogether...my best leg development occurred when I was doing leg presses.

-casual

 

[BodybuildingUniverse]

"Do you think that a very narrow stance with a deep front squat would work even better for blowing up the quads?"

yes. Just to clarify though, i dont front squat, I back squat with a close stance, very deep. I cant do front squats with a wide stance and wide to me equals more ham/innerthigh development. In fact, my hams were lacking for years because I stayed close and I dont get enough out of fronts to withstand the pain. I try to keep my knees close, like a hack almost.

 

[BodybuildingUniverse]

Spatts: "I suppose I'm an exception...I'm all quad."

Havent seen a good shot of your quads to judge for myself by but I was talking about extremes of course. I imagine most of us fall in the middle somewhere

 

[coolcolj]

actually I read a study in purepower mag that said quad involvement was more to do with % of 1RM rather than stance or bar placement. It may feel different, but feel is a bad judge of recruitment.

Narrow stance produced 21% greater activity in the gastroc

wide stance had more glute activity but only when >75% of 1RM

faster speed - more ham activation


I recommened some oly shoes for more quad recruitment, you can stay more vertical

 

[spatts]

Spatts: "I suppose I'm an exception...I'm all quad."

Havent seen a good shot of your quads to judge for myself by but I was talking about extremes of course. I imagine most of us fall in the middle somewhere

If you look at my goodmorning variation thread you can see that I'm pretty much a giant "S" shape of glutes, quads, calves. I figure the quads are there to keep me from falling backwards.

(The "shirts" team was full )

 

[BodybuildingUniverse]

Ah ha! Now I can see em spatts!

Yeah, all I meant was that I've seen some pretty strong squatters who's leg development wouldnt be envied by most on the board. But they could care less of course, they want the big number and could give a shit (supposedly) about what their legs look like. Mostly the lighter athletes. (I have a sneaking that most PLers care more about how they look than they let on, should have seen some of the physique flashing going on at the arnold/wpo).

And Ive seen quite a few bodybuilders with nice, defined shapely legs that wouldnt qualify for their class in a powerlifting meet. apples and oranges I guess.

Coolcol: "It may feel different, but feel is a bad judge of recruitment."

Hell, if I feel it, I get sore from it and i grow from it (see results), what better judge is there? Sometimes these studies drive me nuts. For quad development, you wont see many elite bodybuilders squatting wide.

 

[spatts]

Yeah...you know when the fund raiser is a "Women of..." calendar, that there's at least some acknowledgement of physique. lol